Deseret News | LDS Church urged to soften gay stance

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LDS Church urged to soften gay stance

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Anonymous | 8:44 a.m. June 24, 2009

"Um. I'm a single adult, and I'm completely celibate, and I touch people, and hug them, and have physical contact with others daily. That's not being celibate, that's being anthropophobic.

If you can't hug somebody or touch them on the arm without wanting to sleep with them, I'd suggest that maybe it's time to talk to a therapist."

It's fear, my friend. Not that I would fall in bed with anyone that I touched, but that I COULD. I MUST keep my distance because of that fear.

Sorry if you cannot understand.

You can touch and hug and allow all your feelings to be felt and explored. If you fall in love, so what. If you get a great friend, good for you.

If I allow my feelings to be felt and explored, I am in big trouble. Can you understand the difference?

to WHAT? | 8:47 a.m. June 24, 2009

All true. All have happened and been accepted by Church leadership.

Remember, we are talking about homosexuality, not homosexual acts. Big difference.

Re: Anonymous | 8:44 a.m. | 9:13 a.m. June 24, 2009

Unless you don't have any willpower at all, it's not necessary to cut yourself off entirely from society in order to be celibate, no matter what your orientation happens to be. I have several gay friends who not only are true to their temple covenants, but who also are in daily physical contact with others. Celibacy isn't fun, I'll certianly grant you that, but there is considerably more to life than our sexual desires.

Your choice was not just to either cut yourself off entirely or to have a homosexual relationship. There are many, many other options in between the two extremes, and saying otherwise is seriously misguided.

It's about being self aware. If I find myself attracted to somebody that I shouldn't get involved with- for example, when I found myself deeply attracted to a friend who was already engaged to somebody else when we met- it was my responsibility to remove myself from the situation before it became a problem. And I didn't have to cut myself off from all human contact to do it. We don't have to give it to our urges. Human beings have self control.

Comments continue below

Just a thought... | 9:32 a.m. June 24, 2009

We've all heard the statistics about homosexuals and their suicides, mental issues, and problem lives. Now anyone who has studied statistics understands the principle of underlying variables, meaning that these things could be correlated to something different. In other words, people who are prone to homosexuality and these other life problems might just have an issue of mental instability that causes both of these situations. Just a thought...

Celibacy? | 9:47 a.m. June 24, 2009

Why all this talk about Celibacy? Like it's such a wonderful thing. It isn't--except when it's someone else you don't like or approve of, right?

re - celibacy? | 10:43 a.m. June 24, 2009

I agree. Sex between consenting adults is fun, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. Unfortunately, the people you are talking to are still stuck in the 1800s or the 1950s (even they get confused on which one) and your comment isn't understood by them at all...

re - Dear Haters | 10:40 a.m | 11:05 a.m. June 24, 2009

you are a religious zealot and you should stop pushing your bizarre ideas onto other people.

Cleetorn | 11:27 a.m. June 24, 2009

By way of suggestion, I went to the website offered by the article and spent a good deal of time examining the references and pursuing the additional links. I know a lot more now than I did before. I don't see a request for a softer approach, though. I see a demand for full capitulation and some convoluted confession that all previous teachings on homosexuality have been in error. The other links go to articles and summaries that promote misrepresentations, misinterpretations and outright lies as "Church policy."

There are some HIGHLY educated people who simply refuse to see the light. The only "proof" they see is what will support their deranged version of reality. I am truly amazed at the ignorance and incongruity demonstrated by many posters on this blog.

Unfortunately, it goes both ways. The Church teaches to love the sinner but abhor the sin. Anything beyond that is outside of doctrine. And for those who insist in the evolution of application of policy, you fail to understand the hows and whys of what you perceive as inconsistencies. That's okay. We still love you and anxiously await your return to the fold.

To re - Dear Haters | 11:48 a.m. June 24, 2009

You are a irreligious zealot and you should stop pushing your bizarre ideas onto other people.

Interesting that you're the only one who gets to decide who should state their views and who shouldn't.

Ever hear of the First Amendment? It's in the Constitution. You can look it up.

Anonymous | 12:33 p.m. June 24, 2009

TO - To re - Dear Haters | 11:48 a.m
["Interesting that you're the only one who gets to decide who should state their views and who shouldn't"]

by "pushing your views onto others", I meant stop meddling in the affairs of others, which your church does every time they tell all you drones to contribute money to the anti-gay marriage initiatives.

it's too bad you can't understand that, but i realize you aren't known for free thinking nor an open mind....

Politics | 12:46 p.m. June 24, 2009

Here's something else to just throw out there...how much does a political initiative really do to convince people? I think when it comes to something like gay marriage or abortion, people pretty well have their minds made up before politicians tell them what to believe. I doubt the church's hand in this did anything to sway votes. It was, however, a strong way for the church to point out how it feels. Adam and Eve over Adam and Steve. *shrugs* I guess they just found another way to say it.

Grandma | 12:55 p.m. June 24, 2009

It was not only Sodom and Gomorrah where those who chose to live a deviated lifestyle were destroyed. Remember that Noah was told by the Lord to build an ark as the people were too wicked to remain. It is the Lord's decision what is right and what is wrong. All the whining and mud-slinging against the churches isn't going to make God change His mind. We WILL be held accountable and have to stand before Him and make an accounting in the judgement day. How will we face that moment? We have been given the principle of repentance, and if we choose to ignore that, it is to our downfall, not someone elses because we don't cave to their chosen lifestyle. Please people, wake up before it is too late! Yes, our Lord will hold out His arms to us, but not to accept what is wrong in our lives. He wants us to learn where true joy and peace can come into our lives. It make take some pain and struggle now, but will be worth it in the long run. Stay faithful, please.

@ Dave K | 1:20 p.m. June 24, 2009

And that is the reason people don't want gay people to get married. If someone can get married, you can no longer claim its immoral. If a gay person waits (which many of us would if we had the oppurtunity to get married) then you would have nothing to complain about.

@10:08 | 1:25 p.m. June 24, 2009

And that is the problem with so many people. All you think we are in it for is sex. That is all we do when we see each other. You know, at Pride, I think that was a 20k person orgy just because we could.

Get over yourself. Is your marriage only about sex? NO, and neither is my partnership with the man I love.

@10:48 | 1:29 p.m. June 24, 2009

The majority of gay men, refer to themselves as men. It is you that force the label.

Alex | 1:30 p.m. June 24, 2009

I have never heard a single leader of the Church speaking against the Gay persons but against the lifestyle which is contrary to anything we have learned from Scripture or (in the case of LDS people) in modern revelation. I'm aware of instances where there have been homosexuals coming to the Church and when they commit to living the Law of Chastity and renounce any past gay behavior, they've been embraced in the fellowship of the Church. The Church and its members aren't against other people but against theyr wrong lifestyle and their not so hidden agenda to change black and white for off-white and gray.

From Grannie to Grandma | 1:31 p.m. June 24, 2009

If you have been around as long as I have, you know that each person must work out their own salvation. Each person will face God and be judged. Each person will know that it is just.

I have learned to just love. I must allow all judgments to be Gods and allow each person their free agency to pick their own life. If I have not learned to love everyone, I have failed.

I need to look for the beam in my own eye before I try and pick any mote out of anothers.

I'm telling all you people, learn to love. That is why we have this new challenge - it is for us to learn to love everyone - and I mean EVERYONE!

to Grannie | 1:56 p.m. June 24, 2009

you can still love someone without letting them destroy the world you live in

Grannie | 2:21 p.m. June 24, 2009

to Grannie | 1:56 p.m. June 24, 2009
"you can still love someone without letting them destroy the world you live in."

This will not destroy the world. It will not even destroy "marriage." We are doing that quite well by ourselves. Look at all the people cheating on their spouses. Look at the quick marriages and divorces in Las Vegas. Look at the abandonment of spouses and children. Look at the physical and emotional abuse that is rampant in this world. Look at the suffering of women and children by those who think they are better because they have a "Y" chromosome.

We heterosexuals are 97% of the world's population. We are the ones who have screwed it up. We need to look for the beam in our own eye.

Now, go. Love your families and neighbors, be they black, white, straight or gay. Make this world better than you left it and that will not come from judging others and putting yourself above them.

to - Politics | 12:46 p.m | 2:23 p.m. June 24, 2009

["I doubt the church's hand in this did anything to sway votes"]

yeah - you're probably right - other than pay for a bunch of deceitful ads that convinced people to vote for prop 8 when they would have voted differently. It was probably only about half the votes, so sure - made no difference at all... (that's sarcasm in case you missed it...)

to - Grandma | 12:55 p.m | 2:25 p.m. June 24, 2009

why do you insist on discussing fairy tales when talking about current affairs? do you REALLY believe a guy named Noah put two of every animal on a boat and saved them from a flood of the entire planet and everyone else died? do you not own a science book or watch the Discovery Channel?

wow - you people are unbelievable...

re - to Grannie | 1:56 p.m | 2:32 p.m. June 24, 2009

["you can still love someone without letting them destroy the world you live in"]

yes - gays and gay marriage will destroy the world you live in... right.... LOL

TO - Grandma | 12:55 p.m | 2:49 p.m. June 24, 2009

["All the whining and mud-slinging against the churches isn't going to make God change His mind"]

Have you ever met God? Have you ever sat and had a conversation with Him? a real one, not some warm fuzzy in your temple... I venture to say you haven't. So really, you have no clue what God likes, dislikes, wants, or doesn't want. you don't know God's views on anything. Why do you consistently act like you actually know?

unless you've sat down and talked to God face to face, you don't know what He wants. Stop acting like you actually know, and stop using that to try to get people to comply with your ideals.

I agree with Grannie - live and let live. don't you people have bigger problems, like your kids having babies out of wedlock? instead of worrying about people that WANT to get married, why don't you focus on the kids that keep having kids WITHOUT getting married...

Alonzo | 2:54 p.m. June 24, 2009

To Anonymous at 12:33 PM

"by "pushing your views onto others", I meant stop meddling in the affairs of others, which your church does every time they tell all you drones to contribute money to the anti-gay marriage initiatives.

it's too bad you can't understand that, but i realize you aren't known for free thinking nor an open mind...."

So if I choose to give to support a cause where I see moral value - then I am a drone, not a free-thinker and not open minded - however if you choose to support an immoral cause you are the opposite?

Sounds like someone is a little wrapped up in self-centered and self-grandizement. The truth of the matter is all men and women are free to educate and make choices for themselves.

There is a big difference between educated and intellectualism. Satan would love us to become elite intellectuals and above moral law.

Vince | 3:14 p.m. June 24, 2009

Just a thought... | 9:32 a.m. June 24, 2009

And this "mental instability" as you call it ---

oh, doesn't stop you from....

having a career
achieving your goals
having a family
doing excellent in school
serving a full time mission
serving in the Church
being a good provider/parent

au contraire, in fact, the depression/angst whatever you want to call it comes from people trying to accommodate their identity to the pressures of the majority.

The square and round scenario so to speak.

While some may dismiss it as "just a thought" as you call it --- the studies show otherwise.

Time and again, not just thoughts --- but studies taken over time and time again show that gays fare better when they accept themselves for who they are and when they have accepting surroundings.

I am not speaking of promoting anything, mind you, I am speaking about people accepting themselves for who they are.

If anything, it is the gays who are promoted the heterosexual identity because they are surrounded by it. And we're still gay.

Vince | 3:20 p.m. June 24, 2009

Dear Haters | 10:40 a.m. June 24, 2009

I think you missed entirely the spirit in which the petition was sent out.

The operative word was 'reconciliation.'

That means coming together.

Who said anything about hate?

If everytime we label someone who disagrees with us as a 'hater' we stop communication and we resort to labels. Very unproductive.

Nonetheless, please don't dismiss gays as being not spiritual.

I have seen very spiritual gays.
I have seen very spiritual heteros.
I have seen non-spiritual gays.
I have seen non-spiritual heteros --- who go to Church.

What do spirituality and identity have to do with each other?

To Alonzo | 3:45 p.m. June 24, 2009

Can you separate yourself and your rights to vote as you please with what the LDS church did in organizing, funding and running the campaign to stop gays from marrying in California.

You have every right to do what you did. The church doing it is meddling in other people lives.

re: TO - Grandma | 3:56 p.m. June 24, 2009

And that's the problem with using religion. The world is turned away from believing in a God (any God) so they can conveniently say there is no sin and laugh and make fun of those who maintain a belief in god. Arguing with people like that is like talking to a 6 year old who covers thier ears and says "blah, blah, blah" so they can't hear you.

Why do those asking for acceptance fail to accept others??????

re - Alonzo | 2:54 p.m | 4:07 p.m. June 24, 2009

["Satan would love us to become elite intellectuals and above moral law."]

you hit the nail on the head and truly stated the actual problem... the problem is - you think you know what "moral law" is or should be and wish to create laws that force everyone to comply with that, even when many don't believe in the same moral code that you do.

so when you say moral law, you are talking about your moral code. Well, I'm not gay, but I can safely assure you that my moral code is nothing like yours. If you had your way, sex outside of marriage would probably be illegal, and yet I find nothing wrong with two consenting adults having fun in the sack. If God wanted it to be bad, He wouldn't have made it so much fun...

it is your right to support whatever "moral cause" you want to. but when you do it, just remember you are pushing your idea of morals onto people that aren't like you, and don't want to be like you.

can you understand that creating laws that force people to comply with your narrow viewpoint is wrong?

Yellow Books | 4:47 p.m. June 24, 2009

Well.... it seems that the GAYS are getting a bit angry... so, I'm part of the church and, we're not saying we HATE gays, we're just saying it's not right.... and it isn't. But, I guess it's not our choice, hopefully this comment changed your mind about this topic.

@What | 4:48 p.m. June 24, 2009

As a recovering mormon and homosexual, what you just quoted is exactly how it is.

@Politics | 4:54 p.m. June 24, 2009

If you really believe that you should look further into what the people of the church (not the church itself) said and propoganda used to sway people's minds into voting yes or no. Most people in this country are not free thinkers and need to be led. It is just who gets to them first.

narrow viewpoint | 5:05 p.m. June 24, 2009

the problem with religion's involvement in this issue is that religions inevitably want people to NOT do something. Have you ever heard of a religious tenet that actually wanted you to do something that you wanted to do? no - it's all about rules and don't do this and don't do that. The problem is, most of the things they say don't do actually are harmless. It's just some old guy's idea of right and wrong from really old books.

perhaps if you all had some fun things that you WANTED us to do, we would be more understanding. But when all you say is don't do this and don't do that, when most of it is hogwash, why would you expect anyone to want that to be the basis of law?

any idea how many laws have changed simply to get rid of ridiculous things implemented many years ago? let me tell you - there are a LOT.

gay marriage hurts no one, yet again you are saying don't do it. can't you focus on things that actually harm others? you're so frustrating...

Jake | 5:09 p.m. June 24, 2009

In a democracy, laws do not force people to comply with a narrow viewpoint. By definition, they hold people to a standard embraced by the majority. Call the majority narrow all you want, but at least enjoy the irony while you're at it. Every citizen is within his or her rights to stand behind and contribute to causes without fear of retribution. No one has the right to seek out and harass those who have done so. Many of the comments above claim it is impossible to know what God wants. How do you know? What's less likely, that someone has come to know God or that you somehow know that no one can know God? Do you have any evidence to supply? Don't say experience. If, in your experience, God does not exist, or exists but does not communicate to us, then what you really have is a lack of experience. I have experienced things that tell me God does exist, and he does communicate to us. Call me crazy, if it makes you feel better. Then join the dogs in telling me there's no such thing as color. It's no less ridiculous.

Jake | 5:32 p.m. June 24, 2009

To narrow viewpoint: Marriage between man and a woman IS something God wants us to do. Naturally, the converse is something he doesn't want us to do. Every religious tenet is this way. The opposite of don't smoke, don't drink, don't do drugs is take care of your body and enjoy a healthy life. The opposite of don't kill, steal, or covet is live in harmony with your fellow man. The problem is, God is talking to a bunch of blockheads who won't obey a commandment unless it has teeth in it. I'm sure God would love to say, "Be nice and happy" and leave it at that, but I don't have to tell you how unrealistic an expectation that is. Marriage is unique - it's actually a privelege, not a right, and not everyone has the opportunity to experience a successful marriage in this life, though they will some day, and when they do, they'll know why I attribute my happiness to my family. Homosexuality would have destroyed that. My wife would be elsewhere, and my children would not have been born. Are you still wondering who it hurts?

Anonymous | 5:40 p.m. June 24, 2009

["In a democracy, laws do not force people to comply with a narrow viewpoint. By definition, they hold people to a standard embraced by the majority."]

and if there were a bunch of murders by mormons and the general populace decided that being mormon was immoral and shouldn't be allowed, you would be ok with that? even though being mormon doesn't hurt anyone?

["I have experienced things that tell me God does exist, and he does communicate to us. Call me crazy, if it makes you feel better"]

no more crazy than anyone else - but your belief does not make it real. and certainly doesn't convince me or anyone else that it happened. so again you are trying to impose your morals (through the implementation of laws) onto others, when their action HARMS NO ONE. That's the key - it harms no one. why should it be illegal?

but your church telling all of you mormons to put money into a cause using deceitful ads DOES harm others. so you are sinning and gays aren't.

call me crazy if you want, but then join the dogs in saying there's no such thing as color...

endless argument | 5:56 p.m. June 24, 2009

religious people will never understand the common sense argument, and regular people will never want to comply with the overbearing attitudes of religious people.

so this argument will go on forever (and already has...)

Modern prophets | 12:07 a.m. June 25, 2009

"Truth is a knowledge of things as they really are, were, and will be. It does not change with conditions or time. Truth is the same in every age and culture. God is the source of all truth.

"A prophet is called and chosen by God and is a righteous man with great faith. The Lord reveals truth to him through the Holy Ghost. He commands His prophet to teach truth to all people.

"The President of the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a living prophet.

"The teachings of living prophets provide an anchor of eternal truth in a world of shifting values and help us avoid misery and sorrow. The confusion and strife of the world will not overwhelm us, and we can enjoy the assurance of being in harmony with God's will."
- Preach My Gospel

The Church has set its standards. They will not change. God doesn't change. Don't try to force a Church to change its beliefs. Government can't = Separation between church and state.

C'mon Vince | 6:57 a.m. June 25, 2009

"Reconciliation" is just an LGBT code word for "capitulation."

Where in that hate-filled web site -- you know, the one assigning blame to the Lord's Church for scores of unfortunate suicides -- did you see anything other than a demand that the Church change its stand? That's the price of their "reconciliation."

Did I just miss the part where the LGBT haters offered to soften their stand? Did I overlook the part of their manifesto that offers some kind of "live and let live" olive branch to the Church?

You and they know that a change in doctrine is something we cannont give.

It's simply not up to us.

to c'mon vince | 8:30 a.m. June 25, 2009

A change in doctrine IS something the church can give with historical fact supporting that. Polygamy is no longer permitted in the church..something about losing church property seems to have inspired that "to whom it may concern" revelation. And, Black men may now hold the priesthood, relating to a black man that was given the priesthood just prior to the 1978 conference and related pressure to change the stance. This will likely be censored out as is typical of this paper but why not try this third time.

You might also want to read about "doctrinal shift" and how it relates to all world religions.

Anonymous | 9:14 a.m. June 25, 2009

"The Church has set its standards. They will not change. God doesn't change. Don't try to force a Church to change its beliefs. Government can't = Separation between church and state."

The church does NOT need to change its standards. It can still believe that homosexual acts are a sin. We are asking that you allow fellow Americans to enjoy the same benefits allotted by the government to you.

Can you understand the difference? Just like the LDS church is NOT trying to shut down all the casinos in Las Vegas, they should allow law abiding Americans to chose their own lives, even if the LDS church does not agree with them, which means that gay marriage should become the law of the land, but the LDS church never need perform a gay marriage.

Simple.

And yes, government MUST separate itself from religion or we will become just like Iran. Theocracies are against everything the constitution stands for. Read it.

mormons | 9:43 a.m. June 25, 2009

I think being a mormon is a psychological disorder and ought to be treated. Shock-therapy might work.

re - Modern prophets | 12:07 a.m | 10:10 a.m. June 25, 2009

[""The President of the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a living prophet."]

no - you just think he is. and that's fine - believe what you want - just stop using that to impose your will onto others. give him your 10% and leave it at that.

["A prophet is called and chosen by God and is a righteous man with great faith. The Lord reveals truth to him through the Holy Ghost. He commands His prophet to teach truth to all people"]

we know you are very religious. it's obvious - you don't need to keep telling us. But that has absolutely nothing to do with making things legal or illegal. You are using your belief in a spiritual being to create laws that restrict rights and cause harm to others. That's a sin!! maybe not in your religion, but it is in mine.

why do you think your beliefs and religion is more important, or should take presidence, over mine?

to anonymous | 10:12 a.m. June 25, 2009

Please read the actual Constitution regarding Church and State. You might be surprised to find that it deals with a government run church or even a theocracy.

Also, your God DOES seem to change with regular doctrinal shifts especially when church money or property is involved.

to - C'mon Vince | 6:57 a.m | 10:16 a.m. June 25, 2009

["you know, the one assigning blame to the Lord's Church..."]

it's not the Lord's church - it's your church. You built it, not God. try to stay on track here.

no one is trying to take away or supress your rights, so it's easy to act all innocent. But don't be shocked by the anger and indignation of the party to which you are supressing rights. The civil rights of the 50s were done with much bloodshed. so a little indignation should be expected by your church.

why should gays offer an olive branch? they didn't do anything wrong. your church did. that would be like journalists offering an olive branch to the taliban right after one of them is beheaded...

what don't you get?

Just My Opinion | 10:45 a.m. June 25, 2009

1. The Church will never condone homosexual behavior anymore than they will condone any other type of sex outside of marriage. I think the "softening" has probably gone as far as it can in the Church - okay to be gay as long as you don't act on it.

2. I strongly believe the majority of same sex attraction is genetic. Whether that can be changed is very doubtful. Even the Church has abandoned past efforts at changing the behavior.

3. There are some straight members who will never marry or who are divorced and must also resist sexual urges in order to remain in moral compliance - possibly for years or the remainder of their lives.

4. Empathy should require us to understand that the gay member really is doomed to a life a celibacy if he or she wishes to remain temple worthy. Many who tried to have a straight marriage resulted in a ton of pain - this is no longer recommended by Church leadership. This is not an easy lot in life and should not be dismissed as just like all other challenges in life.

5. The Savior WILL ask us how we treated gay LDS members.

The Bottom Line | 10:55 a.m. June 25, 2009

Straight members of the Church at least have an opportunity to enjoy sexual relations within marriage. Not all will have that but they at least have that possibility.

The vast majority of current medical/scientific thinking is that homosexuality is genetic. I believe that thinking will become virtually unanimous with genetic advancements in the future. Therefore, assuming this is genetic, gay members of the Church have no choice but to live a celibit life if they wish to remain worthy under the Church's standards.

I don't see that reality changing anymore than I see the Church allowing single straight members to have sex outside of marriage if they are unable to find a spouse after a certain point. I am straight. But I feel a great deal of empathy for my fellow members who have basically come to this earth with no choice but to be celibit. God bless them and God bless us to have greater love and empathy toward our gay brothers and sisters.

Jake | 11:07 a.m. June 25, 2009

To Anonymous | 5:40 p.m. June 24, 2009
I never said the majority is always right, I simply disagreed with the claim that it is narrow. Many of the comments in here are addressed specifically to Mormons even though the vote passed by majority in California and members of many other churches were involved in the campaign. I know it's easier to divide the world into compartments like a TV dinner and try to keep the corn from spilling into the potatoes, but the fact is it passed by majority vote in one of the most populated and diverse states in the country. You can't attribute it to any one faith, political party, or socioeconomic group. I don't want to impose my morals on anyone (nor do I believe it's even possible). I don't want to attack gays, I want to defend marriage and family as the basis of society. Families can succeed in many forms, but a marriage between a man and a woman in love is the strongest possible foundation. People can draw strength from single parents, friends, neighbors, coworkers - gay or straight - but we don't call those marriages either.

Suicide | 11:41 a.m. June 25, 2009

The LDS church tells people from birth that they are the only one true church, and that only marriage gets you to the highest heaven.

Gays, who cant help who they are, are rejected from their lifelong church.

Is it any wonder some commit suicide? The church has sinned by rejecting its children and causing them to die.

To Jake | 11:41 a.m. June 25, 2009

At 11:07 a.m.

AMEN!!

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