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Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?
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Ghosttown Bob | 2:15 p.m. April 1, 2009
HCC: An overlay has been done on a picture of Sundance and William Long, do a
search on the KSL website for "Producer Scientist say body unearthed in
Duchesne is the Sundance Kid." The video shows the overlay. Be careful
though, the picture of William Long has been transposed (reversed) and what is
compared is the right side of Sundance with the left side of Long.
TM | 2:20 p.m. April 1, 2009
And the beat goes on....and the beat goes on. -Sonny
:-)
:-)
Comments continue below
Jerry Nickle | 3:07 p.m. April 1, 2009
"The Standard's issues from 1870 to 1952 can be consulted on microfilm
in The British Library, Newspapers Division."
Looks like I have to go England to see the 1912 issue?
Looks like I have to go England to see the 1912 issue?
Gaylen Robison | 3:16 p.m. April 1, 2009
Shari, Thank you!
G. Grandpa's bones are at this time at a lab undergoing DNA testing. We are all waiting. For even more convincing evidence, you must see the photo overlay transparencies produced by the famous forensic scientist Dr. McCullough that was demonstrated Wednesday, march 25 on Channel 5 News.
Better yet, the photo's of Harry Longabaugh's sisters. Those pictures are in the book "Sundance my Uncle" by Earnst. One of those same pictures hung on the wall in the Duchesne home of William Henry and Luzernia Long. Every relative I have including my mother, who can remember back that far, were told by their Grandpa (or Uncle) Long that those two women in the picture were his sisters. Dr. McCullough applied the same science on the Sisters pictures. He said: "They are to close". In due course of time this and other irrefutable evidences will be available to the public.
Thank you very kindly friend.
G. Grandpa's bones are at this time at a lab undergoing DNA testing. We are all waiting. For even more convincing evidence, you must see the photo overlay transparencies produced by the famous forensic scientist Dr. McCullough that was demonstrated Wednesday, march 25 on Channel 5 News.
Better yet, the photo's of Harry Longabaugh's sisters. Those pictures are in the book "Sundance my Uncle" by Earnst. One of those same pictures hung on the wall in the Duchesne home of William Henry and Luzernia Long. Every relative I have including my mother, who can remember back that far, were told by their Grandpa (or Uncle) Long that those two women in the picture were his sisters. Dr. McCullough applied the same science on the Sisters pictures. He said: "They are to close". In due course of time this and other irrefutable evidences will be available to the public.
Thank you very kindly friend.
Ghosttown Bob | 3:27 p.m. April 1, 2009
Jerry, I am still on the chase for the article. No luck with Ernst, have yet to
hear back from Bell, I tried the inter-library loan route with no luck.
wondering | 4:27 p.m. April 1, 2009
Mr. Buck further educates us with the following: "P.S. Ruminate is a word
every cowboy should know. Cows are ruminants."
Cows are in this rather exclusive club, because they chew their cud, which of course is food they have already swallowed. Right, Mr Buck?
Do we get a diploma after Buck's class is over?
I kind of believe, anyone who tunes in for the Buck hour, is almost like the cow. We get to chew the same stuff over and over.
But that is what us cowboys do.
W
Cows are in this rather exclusive club, because they chew their cud, which of course is food they have already swallowed. Right, Mr Buck?
Do we get a diploma after Buck's class is over?
I kind of believe, anyone who tunes in for the Buck hour, is almost like the cow. We get to chew the same stuff over and over.
But that is what us cowboys do.
W
TM | 1:12 p.m. April 2, 2009
Ghostown Bob, I have tried to research successful bank and or train robberies in
the Southwest and West Coast after 1909 that might match the MO of BC and SK and
have had little success from a premliminary search on the internet. You appear
very knowledgable of the events of this era. Just wondering if you have heard or
read and accounts of robberies after the reported deaths of BC and SK that you
thought look liked their past work? I would think Pinkerton Agency would have
these kinds of records...Which leads me to ask if Pinkerton ever suspected BC
and or SK in any robberies in the US after 1909?
TM | 1:15 p.m. April 2, 2009
To Jerry and or Buck: Who would I contact to review Pinkerton Files that covered
the 1909 through say 1925 era?
Jerry Nickle | 2:02 p.m. April 2, 2009
Ghost Town Bob sent me the April 17, 1912 Standard article and I thank him.
I would very much like to read Michael Bells analysis of this article. Maybe Ghost Town Bob, Dan Buck or Michael Bell will send me the analysis.
I would very much like to read Michael Bells analysis of this article. Maybe Ghost Town Bob, Dan Buck or Michael Bell will send me the analysis.
Daniel Buck | 2:10 p.m. April 2, 2009
TM,
The Pinkerton archives are at the Library of Congress. They are raw information files, pertaining to whatever came to the Pinkertons' attention. That is, to be read with care.
Another option is two books by Richard Patterson, THE TRAIN ROBBERY ERA: AN ENCYCLOPEDIC HISTORY (1991) and HISTORICAL ATLAS OF THE OUTLAW WEST (1985).
Two things to consider. First, the authorities sometimes attribute unsolved crimes to famous outlaws. (Jesse James used to complain about it.) Second, the basic operational aspects of bank and train robberies are pretty much the same, no matter who is the bandit -- horses, guns, element of surprise, getaway plan, etc.
Dan
The Pinkerton archives are at the Library of Congress. They are raw information files, pertaining to whatever came to the Pinkertons' attention. That is, to be read with care.
Another option is two books by Richard Patterson, THE TRAIN ROBBERY ERA: AN ENCYCLOPEDIC HISTORY (1991) and HISTORICAL ATLAS OF THE OUTLAW WEST (1985).
Two things to consider. First, the authorities sometimes attribute unsolved crimes to famous outlaws. (Jesse James used to complain about it.) Second, the basic operational aspects of bank and train robberies are pretty much the same, no matter who is the bandit -- horses, guns, element of surprise, getaway plan, etc.
Dan
Daniel Buck | 2:13 p.m. April 2, 2009
Horse Creek Cowboy,
You zeroed in on the essence of doing facial comparisons, look for differences, not similarities.
One difficulty here is that the photo that Jerry has posted on his website of Long has been flopped and retouched to make it look more like the photo of SK in the Fort Worth Five portrait.
Even so, the differences leap out. Long's ear has a different contour, and it's lower on his head than SK's. SK is beetle-browed; WHL is not. WHL's eyebrows are slender and arcing, almost feminine. SK's are not. WHL is doe-eyed; SK is not. The jaw lines of the two men are different. WHL has a longer nose that slightly hooks down; SK's nose does not. SK has a thick moustache; WHL does not. The build of the two men is different. And so on.
Dan
You zeroed in on the essence of doing facial comparisons, look for differences, not similarities.
One difficulty here is that the photo that Jerry has posted on his website of Long has been flopped and retouched to make it look more like the photo of SK in the Fort Worth Five portrait.
Even so, the differences leap out. Long's ear has a different contour, and it's lower on his head than SK's. SK is beetle-browed; WHL is not. WHL's eyebrows are slender and arcing, almost feminine. SK's are not. WHL is doe-eyed; SK is not. The jaw lines of the two men are different. WHL has a longer nose that slightly hooks down; SK's nose does not. SK has a thick moustache; WHL does not. The build of the two men is different. And so on.
Dan
Anonymous | 2:46 p.m. April 2, 2009
Jerry:
It seems odd that Mr. Buck does not want to share (prove) his information about Etta's watch. If he (actually?) has written information from, was it Tiffany's, what in the world is the reason for not showing it. Does it contain military secrets, or information only Mr. Buck can understand, or is it a tale he made up to support something he wrote?
Or was the whole tale just "reportedly" said?
Why not ask him?
It seems odd that Mr. Buck does not want to share (prove) his information about Etta's watch. If he (actually?) has written information from, was it Tiffany's, what in the world is the reason for not showing it. Does it contain military secrets, or information only Mr. Buck can understand, or is it a tale he made up to support something he wrote?
Or was the whole tale just "reportedly" said?
Why not ask him?
Anonymous | 3:12 p.m. April 2, 2009
"One difficulty here is that the photo that Jerry has posted on his website
of Long has been flopped and retouched to make it look more like the photo of SK
in the Fort Worth Five portrait."
And I thought that was only done to the photo of poor Mr. Zimmer. Shows how an old cowboy can be wrong.
Have the cows come home yet?
And I thought that was only done to the photo of poor Mr. Zimmer. Shows how an old cowboy can be wrong.
Have the cows come home yet?
Anonymous | 3:38 p.m. April 2, 2009
Hey Big D, if you think Jerry is (shall we say) cheating, why not write his
wife, or (co-author?), and ask them. It appears you may have done this to
Lula's co-author, maybe Jerry has one too. It is worth a shot.
And for "YOU" to accuse another historian of using false or unverified information! By the way, if this was an operation to make Zimmer look like Butch, you would of course had the same comments? But be careful, this may have only been reportedly done.
And for "YOU" to accuse another historian of using false or unverified information! By the way, if this was an operation to make Zimmer look like Butch, you would of course had the same comments? But be careful, this may have only been reportedly done.
A C | 3:57 p.m. April 2, 2009
"Even so, the differences leap out. Long's ear has a different
contour, and it's lower on his head than SK's. SK is beetle-browed;
WHL is not. WHL's eyebrows are slender and arcing, almost feminine.
SK's are not. WHL is doe-eyed; SK is not. The jaw lines of the two men are
different. WHL has a longer nose that slightly hooks down; SK's nose does
not. SK has a thick moustache; WHL does not. The build of the two men is
different. And so on" From Dbuck, who else!
Clear something up here please. Is our "expert" who has a record of proven information, second to none, explaing the similarities between Long and Longabaugh or Zimmer and Cassidy?
I still think Captain Smith (captain of the Titanic) should, like Dbuck does, tell us what he knows about avoiding ice bergs.
Come on Daniel, give us a break. Give it up. Let Jerry show, one way or another, what he can do. You did.
AC
Clear something up here please. Is our "expert" who has a record of proven information, second to none, explaing the similarities between Long and Longabaugh or Zimmer and Cassidy?
I still think Captain Smith (captain of the Titanic) should, like Dbuck does, tell us what he knows about avoiding ice bergs.
Come on Daniel, give us a break. Give it up. Let Jerry show, one way or another, what he can do. You did.
AC
Zeke | 4:33 p.m. April 2, 2009
Anonymous,
We get it. You don't like Mr. Buck. Enough already. You may have noticed everyone (as far as I can tell) is trying to ignore your comments. You bring nothing to the debate. Please stop.
I, for one, am enjoying the relatively civil debate here. Again, you bring nothing to it. Others, including critics of Mr. Buck, do.
I do not agree with Mr. Buck's characterization of the forensic analysis as I know Dr. McCullough personally and know him to be a qualified forensic anthropologist and professor of the subject. If he says the facial structures are very similar, then I believe him as he is the most qualified person I know of to make that assessment.
Despite that, I think it is highly unlikely that WHL is the SK for the various historical reasons mentioned. It would be a great story if true, and I hope somehow it is, but I really doubt it at this point. I will be quiet now because I have nothing else to add.
We get it. You don't like Mr. Buck. Enough already. You may have noticed everyone (as far as I can tell) is trying to ignore your comments. You bring nothing to the debate. Please stop.
I, for one, am enjoying the relatively civil debate here. Again, you bring nothing to it. Others, including critics of Mr. Buck, do.
I do not agree with Mr. Buck's characterization of the forensic analysis as I know Dr. McCullough personally and know him to be a qualified forensic anthropologist and professor of the subject. If he says the facial structures are very similar, then I believe him as he is the most qualified person I know of to make that assessment.
Despite that, I think it is highly unlikely that WHL is the SK for the various historical reasons mentioned. It would be a great story if true, and I hope somehow it is, but I really doubt it at this point. I will be quiet now because I have nothing else to add.
Anonymous | 4:57 p.m. April 2, 2009
Disintrested Observer (AKA D.B) said; Dr. McCullough of the University of Utah.
I am sure his credentials are impeccable, and that he is a good scientist.
Dr. John McCullough, who has long experience as a forensic anthropologist. At a glance, photos of Sundance and Long don't look strikingly alike, but when transparencies are matched up, the images seem to fuse into the face of one very wanted man. "It's a perfect match, almost a perfect match," McCullough said.
McCullough took it a step further, measuring all their features. He calculated a mathematical match .99. "Which is astounding," he said. "I had never expected to get even that close."
Dr. John McCullough, who has long experience as a forensic anthropologist. At a glance, photos of Sundance and Long don't look strikingly alike, but when transparencies are matched up, the images seem to fuse into the face of one very wanted man. "It's a perfect match, almost a perfect match," McCullough said.
McCullough took it a step further, measuring all their features. He calculated a mathematical match .99. "Which is astounding," he said. "I had never expected to get even that close."
New | 5:12 p.m. April 2, 2009
Being new to all this, could someone explain what this Dan Buck has done, that
gives him the right to be so judgemental agaisnt Jerry Nickle. Especially
before Nickle has completed his effort. Doesn't Nickle deserve a fair
shake. Seems like Mr. Buck and others know a lot.
AC | 6:07 p.m. April 2, 2009
Mr. Zeke says: You don't like Mr. Buck.
I commend you for defending Mr. Buck. Now may I point out a thing or two. I would hate to guess how many different folks use your "anonymous".
"Liking" Buck? Most have not met him. Have you considered, it is not "him" but what he "does" that is behind all this! If you would read some of the "factual" tactics done by "your" Buck, you might figure that out.
Are you aware of the Parker family members he has bad-mouthed, chased away by advising them that he knows more about their family,(by reported info) than they do. If he would conduct himself as the professional, he thinks he is, and indicate some respect for the information others have, comments might be different.
You have every right to defend the individual. But you are wrong and look foolish when you defend his methods. You should realize that being unable to prove his theory, all that is left for someone like him, is to try and make other's look wrong.
Zeke, please stop defending the behavior of one who has achived nothing. It is Jerry's turn.
A C
I commend you for defending Mr. Buck. Now may I point out a thing or two. I would hate to guess how many different folks use your "anonymous".
"Liking" Buck? Most have not met him. Have you considered, it is not "him" but what he "does" that is behind all this! If you would read some of the "factual" tactics done by "your" Buck, you might figure that out.
Are you aware of the Parker family members he has bad-mouthed, chased away by advising them that he knows more about their family,(by reported info) than they do. If he would conduct himself as the professional, he thinks he is, and indicate some respect for the information others have, comments might be different.
You have every right to defend the individual. But you are wrong and look foolish when you defend his methods. You should realize that being unable to prove his theory, all that is left for someone like him, is to try and make other's look wrong.
Zeke, please stop defending the behavior of one who has achived nothing. It is Jerry's turn.
A C
Zeke | 6:08 p.m. April 2, 2009
...OK. One more thing since y'all are coming out of the woodwork all of
the sudden. The insults have gotten very old. Mr. Buck may have angered some
people but he clearly has a great deal of knowledge about the subject and has a
place in this debate, whether his theories are right or not. Some people
disagree with him and are discussing that in a civil manner. Others, mostly in
the anti-Buck camp, are bombarding us with constant insults. We all know Zimmer
wasn't BC. Enough already. I don't want to be on a "side"
in this thing. This isn't politics or religion--this the history of
outlaws. You all need to grow up and grow some thicker skin. I guess people
think Mr. Buck insulted them or their great grandma or whatever... get over it
and learn to be civil. Maybe you think Mr. Buck isn't... perhaps you can
take the high road then.
Zeke | 6:09 p.m. April 2, 2009
(...)What is the harm in debating the evidence for and against Mr. Nickle's
theory while we wait for the DNA to come back? Mr. Buck's responses have
sometimes been more harsh than I might hope but the don't approach the
barrage of insults I'm complaining about.
You people take all the fun out of this. Sad.
You people take all the fun out of this. Sad.
Zeke | 6:41 p.m. April 2, 2009
I submitted the previous two before AC's preceding post.
Everything you say may be true. I wouldn't know. That doesn't mean you can't be civil and stop annoying and chasing away those who don't take your side--I don't want to take a side or defend anyone. But, your behavior--whatever Mr. Buck's out-of-public or in-public behavior may be--is less than adult. This is like talking to a child: "but he hit me first..."
With regards to the possible multiple "anonymous" folks. They bring whatever misinterpretation they get on themselves by not using a recognizable pseudonym.
I'm not trying to defend Mr. Buck, I'm trying to defend civil discourse (especially because this is a subject of no serious importance--though one we all enjoy enough to waste our time on a newspaper message board).
Everything you say may be true. I wouldn't know. That doesn't mean you can't be civil and stop annoying and chasing away those who don't take your side--I don't want to take a side or defend anyone. But, your behavior--whatever Mr. Buck's out-of-public or in-public behavior may be--is less than adult. This is like talking to a child: "but he hit me first..."
With regards to the possible multiple "anonymous" folks. They bring whatever misinterpretation they get on themselves by not using a recognizable pseudonym.
I'm not trying to defend Mr. Buck, I'm trying to defend civil discourse (especially because this is a subject of no serious importance--though one we all enjoy enough to waste our time on a newspaper message board).
TM | 7:14 a.m. April 3, 2009
Wow...Let me say I do enjoy reading everyone's comments. I also wish to say
I can appreciate the comments made by the many people that have invested
countless hours of their lives and for some enormous funds to study these
interesting historical characters. In a perfect world we would have all the
answers. I would like to suggest while we wait on the results of the DNA that we
engage in discussing a "what if" senerio. I suppose I am in the camp
that wants to believe they did escape Bolivia. That then leads me to ask where
they may have gone and how they were successful in not beind captured. Could it
be as simple as the HWL story? Can one simply go cold turkey from one career
choice and assume another? I can certainly understand the upside to a making
such a choice if it meant evading a hanging or a extended jail sentence! How do
characters like these simply disappear into History? The Fort Worth Wanted
poster seemed to be the poster of that decade..So I have to believe the
...continued
Zeke | 8:25 a.m. April 3, 2009
I want to clarify that when I said this was a matter of "no serious
importance," I meant that the fate of the human race doesn't rest on
answers to these questions. I realize people have a lot of time and money
invested in this which is important to them and that learning about one's
family is certainly important to family members... I meant no serious importance
for the rest of us.
I am also grateful for the opertunity to read the posts from Jerry Nickle, Gaylen Robison, Dan Buck, and Ghosttown Bob who have all shared valuable information and theories with us.
I am wishing Mr. Nickle the best and hoping he's correct even though I'm a skeptic.
I am also grateful for the opertunity to read the posts from Jerry Nickle, Gaylen Robison, Dan Buck, and Ghosttown Bob who have all shared valuable information and theories with us.
I am wishing Mr. Nickle the best and hoping he's correct even though I'm a skeptic.
another anon | 9:00 a.m. April 3, 2009
Zeke | 6:41 p.m. April 2, 2009
"I submitted the previous two before AC's preceding post.
Everything you say may be true. I wouldn't know."
Have you considered that "not knowing", may be your problem? Some feel the comments you don't approve of, is simply someone standing up for what is right, and not wrong.
Would you have a problem with someone calling your Mother a liar?
AA
"I submitted the previous two before AC's preceding post.
Everything you say may be true. I wouldn't know."
Have you considered that "not knowing", may be your problem? Some feel the comments you don't approve of, is simply someone standing up for what is right, and not wrong.
Would you have a problem with someone calling your Mother a liar?
AA
Zeke | 9:42 a.m. April 3, 2009
"Would you have a problem with someone calling your Mother a liar?"
Of course I wouldn't appreciate it, but I'd like to think I could deal with it in an adult manner, especially in a public forum.
I didn't appreciate Mr. Buck demeaning Dr. McCullough's competence as a forensic anthropolgist--he is a personal aquaintance--but I don't respond with a barrage of insults.
There are ways to disagree and even to address your beef with Mr. Buck in a civil manner.
Of course I wouldn't appreciate it, but I'd like to think I could deal with it in an adult manner, especially in a public forum.
I didn't appreciate Mr. Buck demeaning Dr. McCullough's competence as a forensic anthropolgist--he is a personal aquaintance--but I don't respond with a barrage of insults.
There are ways to disagree and even to address your beef with Mr. Buck in a civil manner.
Anonymous | 10:54 a.m. April 3, 2009
"Of course I wouldn't appreciate it, but I'd like to think I
could deal with it in an adult manner, especially in a public forum".
Zeke, I think we have beaten this horse enough. We don't agree. I am
always willing to learn from you. Help me here.
I know a man that when he asked the Buck's a question, ("in a public forum"), where they were speaking, they both denied ever doing, what the question implied. (They had in fact done what was asked and would later admit it)
What ever happened to, "it is not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game"? Are you old enough to remember that? I believe we would all be better off, if we "played" the game, in a manner that we could be proud of. We still have umpires.
I have to believe, you do not think that results always justify the means. Is so, then Mr. Madoff is to be admired by all. Although I have not seen where he made a habit out of running down everyone that did not agree with him.
Good luck to you Zeke.
I know a man that when he asked the Buck's a question, ("in a public forum"), where they were speaking, they both denied ever doing, what the question implied. (They had in fact done what was asked and would later admit it)
What ever happened to, "it is not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game"? Are you old enough to remember that? I believe we would all be better off, if we "played" the game, in a manner that we could be proud of. We still have umpires.
I have to believe, you do not think that results always justify the means. Is so, then Mr. Madoff is to be admired by all. Although I have not seen where he made a habit out of running down everyone that did not agree with him.
Good luck to you Zeke.
Sheri | 11:35 a.m. April 3, 2009
To Dan Buck:
Have you provided the mtDNA profile from Harvey Longabaugh for comparison to the bones from Duchesne?
Have you provided the mtDNA profile from Harvey Longabaugh for comparison to the bones from Duchesne?
Sheri | 12:26 p.m. April 3, 2009
To "New"
Daniel Buck and his wife are the ones who exhumed a body in South America, believing it was the Sundance Kid. They ultimately did a mitochondrial (mt)DNA comparison of the bones with Sundance's brother, Harvey Langabaugh, and determined they probably belonged to a man from Europe by name of Zimmer. This was all documented in a PBS Nova episode 15-20 years ago, and documented in a book written by Anne Meadows "Digging up Butch and Sundance"
The same mtDNA profile from Harvey Longabaugh could be compared to that of the body exhumed in Duschene, and settle this once and for all.
Daniel Buck and his wife are the ones who exhumed a body in South America, believing it was the Sundance Kid. They ultimately did a mitochondrial (mt)DNA comparison of the bones with Sundance's brother, Harvey Langabaugh, and determined they probably belonged to a man from Europe by name of Zimmer. This was all documented in a PBS Nova episode 15-20 years ago, and documented in a book written by Anne Meadows "Digging up Butch and Sundance"
The same mtDNA profile from Harvey Longabaugh could be compared to that of the body exhumed in Duschene, and settle this once and for all.
Daniel Buck | 1:24 p.m. April 3, 2009
colleague added two more anomalies in the WHL and SK photographs. WHLs ear is
nearly lobe-less, while SKs lobe is obvious. Also, SK had small, dainty feet.
WHL has big feet.
No need to look at the long list of anomalies cited. Just look at the ears. The bottom of WHLs ear is almost on level with his mouth. SKs is much higher, almost on level with his nose.
I looked again at the photo overlay part of the KSL-TV segment. The two photos being compared were not clear and sharp, but muzzy and washed out. Worse, WHLs photo had been flopped and retouched. Sorry, this is not a valid comparison.
Sheri, re the DNA, I understand something was provided, but I wasnt involved at either end. Also, although Anne Meadows and I were consultants to the NOVA documentary, the DNA aspect was done by the teams scientists and their lab. As I recall, they harvested DNA from two Longabaugh descendants and at least one Parker.
The DNA did not match the complete skeleton we exhumed, who presumably was Gustav Zimmer.
Dan
No need to look at the long list of anomalies cited. Just look at the ears. The bottom of WHLs ear is almost on level with his mouth. SKs is much higher, almost on level with his nose.
I looked again at the photo overlay part of the KSL-TV segment. The two photos being compared were not clear and sharp, but muzzy and washed out. Worse, WHLs photo had been flopped and retouched. Sorry, this is not a valid comparison.
Sheri, re the DNA, I understand something was provided, but I wasnt involved at either end. Also, although Anne Meadows and I were consultants to the NOVA documentary, the DNA aspect was done by the teams scientists and their lab. As I recall, they harvested DNA from two Longabaugh descendants and at least one Parker.
The DNA did not match the complete skeleton we exhumed, who presumably was Gustav Zimmer.
Dan
Daniel Buck | 1:33 p.m. April 3, 2009
The methodology of the anonymous: I know a man (the man is anonymous), who asked
the Bucks a question (the question is anonymous), and later it (the anonymous
thing referred to in the anonymous question by the anonymous man) turned out to
be a fact. What is the fact? Its anonymous.
Dan
Dan
A comment | 1:37 p.m. April 3, 2009
To Mr. Zeke's attention.
Sir, may I politely say to you, that if Mr. Buck, or anyone else, said things like Buck has to so many, about a member of my family, I very clearly, would deal with him, in a most "adult" manner. He would not have to describe what took place as reported either.
Thank you.
AC (a different one)
Sir, may I politely say to you, that if Mr. Buck, or anyone else, said things like Buck has to so many, about a member of my family, I very clearly, would deal with him, in a most "adult" manner. He would not have to describe what took place as reported either.
Thank you.
AC (a different one)
Dan | 1:56 p.m. April 3, 2009
I still have the book. Looking through it, this is what happened:
A geneaologist tracked down a living relative from Sundance's female line, whose mtDNA was compared to those from the bones you exhumed in South America. The two profiles did not match. In order to rule out the possibility that this was not due to an unrecorded adoption in the family, Harvey's bones were exhumed, and a comparison was made. Harvey's mDNA profile matched that of the living relative(who was described as "elderly" at the time, but now is presumably deceased), but not of the bones from South America.
I'm assuming that the comparisons were of base sequences, which is a very easy procedure with today's technology, provided a suitable sample can extracted from the bones. The book says the geneticist had some difficulty getting a suitable sample from Harvey's bones since he had been embalmed, which I assume is also the case with the body in Duchesne.
A geneaologist tracked down a living relative from Sundance's female line, whose mtDNA was compared to those from the bones you exhumed in South America. The two profiles did not match. In order to rule out the possibility that this was not due to an unrecorded adoption in the family, Harvey's bones were exhumed, and a comparison was made. Harvey's mDNA profile matched that of the living relative(who was described as "elderly" at the time, but now is presumably deceased), but not of the bones from South America.
I'm assuming that the comparisons were of base sequences, which is a very easy procedure with today's technology, provided a suitable sample can extracted from the bones. The book says the geneticist had some difficulty getting a suitable sample from Harvey's bones since he had been embalmed, which I assume is also the case with the body in Duchesne.
Sheri | 2:16 p.m. April 3, 2009
Ooops, that last comment from "Dan" was from me. I meant to address
it to Dan.
RC B | 2:21 p.m. April 3, 2009
As a distent friend of yours Dan, why cant we all get along. I have enjoyd your
work foe a long time, you seem to have a lot of information, I appreceate most
of yur efforts. After wathcing this for quite a long time, I do wonder what if.
You would spend more of your valuable time in proofing your side of this
adventue, than in what appears to be only trying to disproof others. I do not
understand what you gane from that. You might have told me that once.
Rock Springs Bob
Rock Springs Bob
Ghosttown Bob | 2:35 p.m. April 3, 2009
About this photo of William Henry Long.
Jerry, most cabinet photo like these have the name of the studio, either embossed on the front, or on the back of the card stock to which the photo is mounted. If they are not embossed, then they usually have a sticker/stamp with the name of the studio placed on the back. Is their any indication of such with this photo? The name and place of a photographer can be traced.
Also I notice that there are some places on the either the photo or the card stock where there has been some writing, that is either faded, or has been erased beyond recognition. Do you know what was written on the card, either on the front or the back?
Jerry, most cabinet photo like these have the name of the studio, either embossed on the front, or on the back of the card stock to which the photo is mounted. If they are not embossed, then they usually have a sticker/stamp with the name of the studio placed on the back. Is their any indication of such with this photo? The name and place of a photographer can be traced.
Also I notice that there are some places on the either the photo or the card stock where there has been some writing, that is either faded, or has been erased beyond recognition. Do you know what was written on the card, either on the front or the back?
Danel Buck | 2:39 p.m. April 3, 2009
Lets move on to the lie business. Is the jackalope a lie? How about Paul
Bunyan, Santa Claus, and Robin Hood? The return of the bandit, Billy the Kid,
Jesse James, Butch Cassidy, the Sundance Kid, they all survived. A lie? No,
but folklore, yes.
Helpful to this endeavor is AMERICAN FOLKLORE: AN ENCYCLOPEDIA (1996), edited by Jan Harold Brunvand.
Lets move closer to home.
We Parkers always loved a good story, wrote Lula Parker Betenson, in BUTCH CASSIDY, MY BROTHER (1975), in reference to a tall tale supposedly told by Butch. Elsewhere she refers to Butch as Robin Hood and Santa Claus.
Another clue, told in TRUE WEST, August 1997, by another Parker descendant, Bill Betenson: Butchs brother Dan, like others in his family, enjoyed a good practical joke. Among his pranks, a string of aliases he used, including Billy the Kid and Kid Parker.
Dan
Helpful to this endeavor is AMERICAN FOLKLORE: AN ENCYCLOPEDIA (1996), edited by Jan Harold Brunvand.
Lets move closer to home.
We Parkers always loved a good story, wrote Lula Parker Betenson, in BUTCH CASSIDY, MY BROTHER (1975), in reference to a tall tale supposedly told by Butch. Elsewhere she refers to Butch as Robin Hood and Santa Claus.
Another clue, told in TRUE WEST, August 1997, by another Parker descendant, Bill Betenson: Butchs brother Dan, like others in his family, enjoyed a good practical joke. Among his pranks, a string of aliases he used, including Billy the Kid and Kid Parker.
Dan
Ghosttown Bob | 2:42 p.m. April 3, 2009
Jerry, also concerning the photo. . . any family stories associated with it? I
would be interested in hearing them.
1 of the anon's | 2:45 p.m. April 3, 2009
Please allow me to aplogize. Among the many bells I hear, one this morning kept
ringing. I looked back thru my meager files and found an old blog, that I swear
is a copy of this one.
Mr. Buck feels there is nothing wrong in how he conducts business. There are those that disagree. One side is wrong, the other is right. So I say goodbye, as I don't think (right or wrong) that either one will change. I can't help but notice, one side buys the books, the other side writes. Explain that.
Best of luck to Mr. Nickle and may you all enjoy the blog days ahead.
1 OTA
Mr. Buck feels there is nothing wrong in how he conducts business. There are those that disagree. One side is wrong, the other is right. So I say goodbye, as I don't think (right or wrong) that either one will change. I can't help but notice, one side buys the books, the other side writes. Explain that.
Best of luck to Mr. Nickle and may you all enjoy the blog days ahead.
1 OTA
Sheri | 3:35 p.m. April 3, 2009
People...
All the pictures can do is provide enough positive evidence to make it worthwhile to exhume the body and conduct the DNA testing. If the comparison had shown anything that would definitively exclude the possibility that William Long was Sundance, then that would probably have been the end of it. That doesn't appear to be the case. The pictures indicate a distinct possibility, now the definitive proof lies in the DNA. There's no sense arguing at this point about whether or not the overlays represent a true similarity, the body's been exhumed and the DNA testing is being done.
Dan, you seem to be distancing yourself from the previous DNA testing of Sundance's family. You were there when Harvey Longabaugh was exhumed. If it were me, I would know exactly what information had been provided to the lab doing the work on the bones from Duchesne. The fact that you're more interested in making pointless arguments raises some real red flags in my book.
All the pictures can do is provide enough positive evidence to make it worthwhile to exhume the body and conduct the DNA testing. If the comparison had shown anything that would definitively exclude the possibility that William Long was Sundance, then that would probably have been the end of it. That doesn't appear to be the case. The pictures indicate a distinct possibility, now the definitive proof lies in the DNA. There's no sense arguing at this point about whether or not the overlays represent a true similarity, the body's been exhumed and the DNA testing is being done.
Dan, you seem to be distancing yourself from the previous DNA testing of Sundance's family. You were there when Harvey Longabaugh was exhumed. If it were me, I would know exactly what information had been provided to the lab doing the work on the bones from Duchesne. The fact that you're more interested in making pointless arguments raises some real red flags in my book.
Zeke | 3:42 p.m. April 3, 2009
Mr. Buck,
I agree KSL's overlays of SK and WHL were not convincing or scientific. Dr. McCullough's analyses were more rigorous than this and since he's an expert, I trust they were close enough in appearance to warrant the DNA investigation. I feel like it's probably difficult to establish similarities in features like eyebrows and earlobes from these grainy old photos. Despite that, I will be very surprised if the DNA matches. (Pleasantly surprised, though... it would make for a good story). There's just too much historical evidence distinguishing WHL and SK (and I find it pretty hard to believe it was all forged, as some have suggested).
I agree KSL's overlays of SK and WHL were not convincing or scientific. Dr. McCullough's analyses were more rigorous than this and since he's an expert, I trust they were close enough in appearance to warrant the DNA investigation. I feel like it's probably difficult to establish similarities in features like eyebrows and earlobes from these grainy old photos. Despite that, I will be very surprised if the DNA matches. (Pleasantly surprised, though... it would make for a good story). There's just too much historical evidence distinguishing WHL and SK (and I find it pretty hard to believe it was all forged, as some have suggested).
A A | 3:54 p.m. April 3, 2009
Sheri states: "The fact that you're more interested in making
pointless arguments raises some real red flags in my book." (This was
directed to Mr. Buck.)
A well thought out comment Sheri, from what others have said, you are not alone in your evaluation. What say you, Zeke?
Another anon
A well thought out comment Sheri, from what others have said, you are not alone in your evaluation. What say you, Zeke?
Another anon
Dan's #1 anon | 4:06 p.m. April 3, 2009
Let's assume Mr. Buck does prove everyone else is not telling the truth, does that then make all his claims correct? That doesn't seem to make any sense. Doea a lady gain beauty by saying another is ugly?
Daniel Buck | 4:07 p.m. April 3, 2009
Sheri, I'm not distancing myself from the previous testing. I didn't
mean the impression. The NOVA scientific team extracted samples from a distant
Longabaugh descendant and, in order to double-check, from Sundances brother
Harvey, and they matched. That's about as good as it gets. They checked
that DNA against the remains that we learned later were those of Zimmer. No
match.
Some think, by the way, that if the result is no match, the exercise is a failure. Positive or negative, you learn something. We learned that Froilan Risso's story was, shall we say, folkloric.
Zeke, I think we are on much the same wave-length, though I happen, through bumpy experience, to be skeptical of the use of photo overlays with historic photos. A have a file full of such "matches."
Best, Dan
Some think, by the way, that if the result is no match, the exercise is a failure. Positive or negative, you learn something. We learned that Froilan Risso's story was, shall we say, folkloric.
Zeke, I think we are on much the same wave-length, though I happen, through bumpy experience, to be skeptical of the use of photo overlays with historic photos. A have a file full of such "matches."
Best, Dan
Zeke | 4:19 p.m. April 3, 2009
A A etc.,
I have no problem with that. She's discussing things with Mr Buck and she disagrees with him about the pertinence of his complaints about the facial analyses (as do I, if you've been paying attention). You (plural apparently) are just insulting him and that's what I take issue with. You don't seem to grasp the concept that there is a difference between having a discussion, even a heated discussion, and just hurling random insults at people because "they deserve it 'cause they insulted my mom in the past" (my paraphrase). That's solved with a fight by the flag pole, not by anonymous newspaper comment board comments.
And no, bringing up Zimmer in every post isn't discussing.
I have no problem with that. She's discussing things with Mr Buck and she disagrees with him about the pertinence of his complaints about the facial analyses (as do I, if you've been paying attention). You (plural apparently) are just insulting him and that's what I take issue with. You don't seem to grasp the concept that there is a difference between having a discussion, even a heated discussion, and just hurling random insults at people because "they deserve it 'cause they insulted my mom in the past" (my paraphrase). That's solved with a fight by the flag pole, not by anonymous newspaper comment board comments.
And no, bringing up Zimmer in every post isn't discussing.
Daniel Buck | 4:23 p.m. April 3, 2009
Zeke, my last message got mashed up. Again:
Zeke, I think we are on much the same wave-length, though I happen, through bumpy experience, to be skeptical of the use of photo overlays with historic photos. I have a file full of such "matches."
Best, Dan
Zeke, I think we are on much the same wave-length, though I happen, through bumpy experience, to be skeptical of the use of photo overlays with historic photos. I have a file full of such "matches."
Best, Dan
Zeke | 4:40 p.m. April 3, 2009
Dan,
Healthy skepticism is always a must. I don't want to speak for Dr. McCullough but I know him to be a good scientist and I'm sure he sees the facial analysis to be merely a first step. DNA analysis is the important thing. After all, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, as I was taught.
Healthy skepticism is always a must. I don't want to speak for Dr. McCullough but I know him to be a good scientist and I'm sure he sees the facial analysis to be merely a first step. DNA analysis is the important thing. After all, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, as I was taught.
Anonymous | 4:43 p.m. April 3, 2009
So, was it Clyde Snow that narrated the Nova episode? One of the things I
remember most about it was when the DNA comparisons were made, and the narrator
said a word (similar to Shiite) that I had never heard on TV before. I was
watching KUED, the University of Utah PBS station. I watched the episode a few
weeks later, on the BYU PBS station, and it had been edited out! Funny.
Anyway, if you Wiki Clyde Snow, it does mention the exhumation of Gustav Zimmer.
Anyway, if you Wiki Clyde Snow, it does mention the exhumation of Gustav Zimmer.
Observer | 4:45 p.m. April 3, 2009
"And no, bringing up Zimmer in every post isn't discussing."
"Every" Not sure as to the accuracy of that.
Zeke is correct here. Whenever Mr Zimmer is brought up, it is not "discussing". It is pointing out a result.
O
Zeke is correct here. Whenever Mr Zimmer is brought up, it is not "discussing". It is pointing out a result.
O
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Butch and Sundance were well known in Argentina. In the aftermath of the 1905 Villa Mercedes bank holdup, their names and photographs were emblazoned in the Argentine press.
Not sure why the 1912 Standard article is stuck in your craw. Its perhaps most useful on the question of who was involved in the Winnemucca bank holdup. Not something thats ever kept me up night.
Worldcat.com lists about a dozen libraries around the globe that hold Buenos Aires Standard collections. As for James Ryans 1901 watch purchase, youll have to contact Tiffany & Co.
Dan
P.S. Ruminate is a word every cowboy should know. Cows are ruminants.