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Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?
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The wise one | 6:44 p.m. March 27, 2009
Has anyone actually seen a sample of Sundance's handwriting?
Sheri | 11:32 a.m. March 29, 2009
To Gaylen Robinson:
On February 17, you stated:
"Here's a puzzle for you skeptics and doubters. Fact #1. William Henry Long married Luzernia Allred Morrell. Their first born was a daughter named Viola. Viola grows up and gets married.
"Viola's first born is Elva. Elva is my mother. She is still alive."
According to the gravemarker, Luzernia would have been 40 when she married Long. I would assume that Viola was born between 1894 and 1904, because I doubt that she bore children after she turned 50. So, Sundance left not only his wife and her children, but also his own children when he took off with Etta place to South America. I'm I correct in that?
On February 17, you stated:
"Here's a puzzle for you skeptics and doubters. Fact #1. William Henry Long married Luzernia Allred Morrell. Their first born was a daughter named Viola. Viola grows up and gets married.
"Viola's first born is Elva. Elva is my mother. She is still alive."
According to the gravemarker, Luzernia would have been 40 when she married Long. I would assume that Viola was born between 1894 and 1904, because I doubt that she bore children after she turned 50. So, Sundance left not only his wife and her children, but also his own children when he took off with Etta place to South America. I'm I correct in that?
Daniel Buck | 5:12 p.m. March 29, 2009
Jerry,
In reference to three of your posts:
(1) 12:48 p.m. Feb. 27, 2009, re p. 37, Meadows (1994), that SK&EP were in Buffalo in February 1901: we relied on two Pinkerton memos. A July 29, 1902, New York memo discussing their activities in February 1901, says that they were treated for medical reasons in Buffalo and New York. Second, an April 3, 1902, Philadelphia memo says that "It is believed that [Sundance] was in hospital last summer 1901 in Buffalo, New York." The Pinkerton writer, qualifying his statement with "It is believed," was off in his surmise about when in 1901 the visit happened. Yet another note, undated, indicates that SK was also treated in Buffalo in May 1902. A reasonable conclusion: SK was treated in Buffalo twice, February 1901 and May 1902.
(2) 1:06 p.m. Feb. 27, 2009, re the Buenos Aires Standard story: The clipping was discovered by Mike Bell, not me. Bell has published two articles about it in the WOLA Journal (vol. IV, no. 4, Summer 1995, and vol. IX, no. 1, Spring 2000).
CONTINUED......
In reference to three of your posts:
(1) 12:48 p.m. Feb. 27, 2009, re p. 37, Meadows (1994), that SK&EP were in Buffalo in February 1901: we relied on two Pinkerton memos. A July 29, 1902, New York memo discussing their activities in February 1901, says that they were treated for medical reasons in Buffalo and New York. Second, an April 3, 1902, Philadelphia memo says that "It is believed that [Sundance] was in hospital last summer 1901 in Buffalo, New York." The Pinkerton writer, qualifying his statement with "It is believed," was off in his surmise about when in 1901 the visit happened. Yet another note, undated, indicates that SK was also treated in Buffalo in May 1902. A reasonable conclusion: SK was treated in Buffalo twice, February 1901 and May 1902.
(2) 1:06 p.m. Feb. 27, 2009, re the Buenos Aires Standard story: The clipping was discovered by Mike Bell, not me. Bell has published two articles about it in the WOLA Journal (vol. IV, no. 4, Summer 1995, and vol. IX, no. 1, Spring 2000).
CONTINUED......
Comments continue below
Daniel Buck | 5:13 p.m. March 29, 2009
(3) 10:38 a.m. March 1, 2009, re the watch purchase: In 1992, Tiffany & Co. informed me that their records indicate that on February 4, 1901, James Ryan, living at 234 East 12th Street, bought a watch, serial number 68210/1685, for $40.10. Also, Tiffany informed a colleague that on June 25, 1902, H.A. Place, no address given, bought a watch, serial number 2590-1128643, for $15.35.
The dates of those purchases, by the way, coincide with what we know from other sources, e.g., Pinkerton and Argentine archives, about BC and SK's movements. Context is everything.
Dan
Gaylen Robison | 6:11 p.m. March 29, 2009
Sheri. Viola was born June 1895. Her Sister within a couple of years later. You
have summed it up real close. He was gone for about a decade. In the mean time
he provided for his Utah family. They were not abandoned. When he did come back
he was a very kind father and husband and later a very kind uncle and
grandfather. I will repeat what I have said before: My Mother who is still alive
remembers him as "the kindest man I have ever known".
Thank you kindly Sheri.
Thank you kindly Sheri.
Jerry Nickle | 7:01 p.m. March 29, 2009
The July 29, 1902 Pinkerton memo you refer does not cover the period before Feb 20, 1901. It does not say they were in New York City before that date. You and all the other writers to date have assumed it included the period before Feb 20, 1901, but it does not. It does not say Butch was in New York City at all in 1901. The memo says BS&E stayed at Mrs Taylors boarding house but that would have been the first part of 1902. The April 3. 1902 memo states it is believed they visited the Buffalo hospital in the summer of 1901 not Jan or Feb of 1901.
Jerry Nickle | 7:03 p.m. March 29, 2009
After the Aug 29, 1900 Tipton train robbery The Pinkertons detective agency
assigned detective Charles Siringo to the case. A few weeks after the robbery
he was ordered to go to go to Alma New Mexico where Butch had spent the previous
winter believing Butch might have returned there. He got a tip that two of the
robbers, Ben Killpatrick and Kid Curry, went through Grand Junction Colorado so
he went there and followed their trail. South of Grand Junction Siringo met a
rancher who recognized a photograph of Kid Curry. At the Carlisle ranch near
Monticelo Utah the ranch manager told Siringo the two outlaws had passed through
saying they were going to where the climate fit their cloths.
The manager said he believed they meant Arizona or New Mexico as the cloths they were wearing were to light for the winter. (Siringo 339-342) This would mean it was not quite winter yet so probably it was November. Following the outlaws trail to Bluff City Utah Siringo lost it in the deep snow near Bluff City. (Siringo 346) This had to have been Nov or Dec 1900.
The manager said he believed they meant Arizona or New Mexico as the cloths they were wearing were to light for the winter. (Siringo 339-342) This would mean it was not quite winter yet so probably it was November. Following the outlaws trail to Bluff City Utah Siringo lost it in the deep snow near Bluff City. (Siringo 346) This had to have been Nov or Dec 1900.
Jerry Nickle | 7:04 p.m. March 29, 2009
Siringo then went back north to Hanksville where he received orders to go to
Circleville Utah Where Butchs family lived to see what he could discover there.
On his way to Circleville he had to take a detour because of snow. Siringo 348.
This was probably Dec 1900 or Jan 1901. From Circleville he was ordered to go to
Alma New Mexico. In Alma Siringo discovered Butch was not in there so he left
Alma and was soon in Frisco New Mexico. In Frisco Siringo discovered Butch and
eight other outlaws were then camped forty miles southwest of Frisco where Butch
had established a Robbers Roost or rendezvous of outlaws (Siringo 355) Butch
was here in Jan and Feb 1901. Not in New York City buying a beautiful gold watch
for Etta.
When Spring arrived Butch was seen in Wilcox Arizona on his way to Globe in May 1901. (Pinkerton criminal history No. 1497).
When Spring arrived Butch was seen in Wilcox Arizona on his way to Globe in May 1901. (Pinkerton criminal history No. 1497).
Jerry Nickle | 7:05 p.m. March 29, 2009
In a speech before the chiefs of police William Pinkerton said Butch and Sundance were among the robbers of the Wagner Montana train on July 3 1901. This means Butch never went to Argintina at all in 1901. In July 1901 Sundance was in Price and Vernal Utah on his way to Baggs Wyoming. (Pinkerton Memo Mar 1, 1902) This means Sundance returned to the USA after he deposited his Winnemucca loot in the bank in Buenos Aires in March 1901.
Because the Pinkerton files clearly show Butch and Sundance were in the USA in 1901 I will consider all South American documents showing they were there in 1901 as fake.
If you can show me differently, by using the Pinkerton Files or primary sources such as Charlie Seringo, I will then take that into consideration.
Jerry Nickle | 7:10 p.m. March 29, 2009
Dan
Do you consider Mike Bells Feb 27, 2009 Buenos Aires Standard story credible?
Do you consider Mike Bells Feb 27, 2009 Buenos Aires Standard story credible?
Jerry Nickle | 7:23 p.m. March 29, 2009
I was invited to speak before the Emery County Historical Society in Castle Dale
Utah last Thursday March 26 to tell my story. I really enjoyed speaking before
this group and I thank them for inviting me.
Daniel Buck | 8:26 p.m. March 29, 2009
Jerry,
Perhaps we are speaking of two different July 29, 1902, Pinkerton memos. The one I'm looking at says that Harry Place was in New York in February 1901, with a woman said to be his wife, at a boarding house at 234 E. 12th Street. He was treated in Buffalo and New York for an undisclosed ailment. With Place at the boarding house was George Parker, known as Ryan.
Place and his wife sailed for Argentina February 20, 1901, and returned April 3, 1902, but the Pinkertons sat they have no record of Parker/Ryan returning. A fair reading of that section is that Parker/Ryan was with them on the outgoing voyage -- the Pinkerton clerk just forgot to mention his name -- because is specifically mentioned as not returning in 1902.
Finally, the Tiffany & Co. records have Ryan, residing at 234 E. 12th St., buying a watch on February 4, 1901.
In terms of 100 year-old records from different archives collaborating each other, this is about as good as it gets.
Dan
Perhaps we are speaking of two different July 29, 1902, Pinkerton memos. The one I'm looking at says that Harry Place was in New York in February 1901, with a woman said to be his wife, at a boarding house at 234 E. 12th Street. He was treated in Buffalo and New York for an undisclosed ailment. With Place at the boarding house was George Parker, known as Ryan.
Place and his wife sailed for Argentina February 20, 1901, and returned April 3, 1902, but the Pinkertons sat they have no record of Parker/Ryan returning. A fair reading of that section is that Parker/Ryan was with them on the outgoing voyage -- the Pinkerton clerk just forgot to mention his name -- because is specifically mentioned as not returning in 1902.
Finally, the Tiffany & Co. records have Ryan, residing at 234 E. 12th St., buying a watch on February 4, 1901.
In terms of 100 year-old records from different archives collaborating each other, this is about as good as it gets.
Dan
TM | 12:11 p.m. March 30, 2009
Having an accurate time line has to be established. Has there been word from the
Lab as to when the DNA results will be released? A few days...A week or
more..next month????
Ghosttown Bob | 3:03 p.m. March 30, 2009
TM: I agree with you, having an accurate timeline is essential for Jerry, that
is why the above discussion is important, because, as it stands right now, using
only Pinkerton files will result in confusion. Like so many police
investigations every tip was recorded, accurate or not, so the files become
inundated with a hodgepodge of conflicting information. A careful analysis has
to be made to distinguish fact from rumor, and outside sources have to be
considered, such as the gold watch, or Charlie Siringo's memories.
Anonymous | 4:11 p.m. March 30, 2009
Has anybody else ever seen the receipt for the gold watch besides Dan Buck?
Anonymous | 8:23 p.m. March 30, 2009
Is it possible, it was only "reportedly" seen? We refer, of course,
to the receipt for the gold watch.
some guy | 12:45 a.m. March 31, 2009
I have been an interested observer on the butch/sundance topic for some time now
and although I am far from an expert I have put a considerable amount of time
into reading up on Butch and Sundance. Saying this I am still unsure about the
circumstances of the final shootout in Bolivia.
Were Butch and Sundance absolutely with no doubt whatsoever working the mines in San Vincente at the time of the shootout AND if so was the residence the two bandits were tracked back to known to be the same that BC/SD were also lodging?
It didn't seem very difficult for Americans with a little cash to travel back and forth to and from the US and SA at that time so is there atleast a remote possibility that another duo of "gringos" took to the task of the robbery and were somehow made to be the famous outlaw duo by means of the American media?
Thx to anyone who attempts to answer these inquiries;as I have said I am no expert, just some guy trying to form an opinion to a question that may never be answered.
Were Butch and Sundance absolutely with no doubt whatsoever working the mines in San Vincente at the time of the shootout AND if so was the residence the two bandits were tracked back to known to be the same that BC/SD were also lodging?
It didn't seem very difficult for Americans with a little cash to travel back and forth to and from the US and SA at that time so is there atleast a remote possibility that another duo of "gringos" took to the task of the robbery and were somehow made to be the famous outlaw duo by means of the American media?
Thx to anyone who attempts to answer these inquiries;as I have said I am no expert, just some guy trying to form an opinion to a question that may never be answered.
Daniel Buck | 5:21 a.m. March 31, 2009
Re the watch. The source for the February 4, 1901, purchase of a $40.10 watch
by James Ryan is a March 12, 1992, letter from Tiffany & Co. to me.
In today's currency, by the way, $40.10 works out to roughly $1,000.00.
The source for the idea that Cassidy gave Sundance the watch is a January 11, 1963, letter from Roy Letson to Charles Kelly, reproduced in Ernst (2009), pp. 186-88.
Kelly (1996 ed.), p. 288,. says that in 1901 Sundance bought "a fine watch for himself and a beautiful lapel watch for Etta" at Tiffany, but does not say where that information came from. He may have telescoped several stories, or garbled what Letson had told him, Tiffany's informed a researcher in the early 1990s that it has a record of H.A. Place buying a $15.35 watch on June 25, 1902.
What does the watch business has to do with William Henry Long anyway? Is the watch a dagger through the heart of the Long = Sundance fable? A Tiffany dagger.
CONTINUED . . . .
In today's currency, by the way, $40.10 works out to roughly $1,000.00.
The source for the idea that Cassidy gave Sundance the watch is a January 11, 1963, letter from Roy Letson to Charles Kelly, reproduced in Ernst (2009), pp. 186-88.
Kelly (1996 ed.), p. 288,. says that in 1901 Sundance bought "a fine watch for himself and a beautiful lapel watch for Etta" at Tiffany, but does not say where that information came from. He may have telescoped several stories, or garbled what Letson had told him, Tiffany's informed a researcher in the early 1990s that it has a record of H.A. Place buying a $15.35 watch on June 25, 1902.
What does the watch business has to do with William Henry Long anyway? Is the watch a dagger through the heart of the Long = Sundance fable? A Tiffany dagger.
CONTINUED . . . .
Sheri | 6:06 a.m. March 31, 2009
Gaylen:
I know a couple of people from old rural Utah families that have stories of their dads being introduced to Butch after he came back from South America. So, I'm open to the idea that Sundance did also.
If Butch was 27 when he married the 40-year-old Luzernia, it's easy to believe it was a marriage of convenience rather than love. And that he would be inclined to run off with the extraordinarily attractive Etta Place. Maybe after a decade in South America, during which time something happened to Etta, he was ready to come home and settle down with the mother of his children.
I dunno. Just trying to figure out that whole relationship.
I know a couple of people from old rural Utah families that have stories of their dads being introduced to Butch after he came back from South America. So, I'm open to the idea that Sundance did also.
If Butch was 27 when he married the 40-year-old Luzernia, it's easy to believe it was a marriage of convenience rather than love. And that he would be inclined to run off with the extraordinarily attractive Etta Place. Maybe after a decade in South America, during which time something happened to Etta, he was ready to come home and settle down with the mother of his children.
I dunno. Just trying to figure out that whole relationship.
Jerry Nickle | 8:21 a.m. March 31, 2009
There is a Pinkerton Memo dated June 8, 1909 that states Butch was in Evanston
Wyoming June 26 and 31 1908. The San Vicente shootout happened Nov 6, 1908.
There is another Pinkerton memo dated March 22, 1909 which states Butch was in Price and Sisco Utah the last part of Feb 1909. This Memo also says Butch was in Woodside Utah March 1, 1909.
As far as I know these memos have never been included as an appendix in any book. I am going to include them along 35 others in my book.
There is another Pinkerton memo dated March 22, 1909 which states Butch was in Price and Sisco Utah the last part of Feb 1909. This Memo also says Butch was in Woodside Utah March 1, 1909.
As far as I know these memos have never been included as an appendix in any book. I am going to include them along 35 others in my book.
Anonymous | 8:23 a.m. March 31, 2009
Do the Tiffany & Co own a copy machine?
Anonymous | 8:46 a.m. March 31, 2009
"Is the watch a dagger through the heart of the Long = Sundance fable? A
Tiffany dagger." Buck asks.
Should his question more accurately be----is this a dagger thru the heart of the Zimmer=Butch fable? A Tiffant shovel?
If Buck would wait and speak only when "He" has facts to share, there would be a lot less noise.
Should his question more accurately be----is this a dagger thru the heart of the Zimmer=Butch fable? A Tiffant shovel?
If Buck would wait and speak only when "He" has facts to share, there would be a lot less noise.
Daniel Buck | 9:15 a.m. March 31, 2009
CONTINUED . . . .
In ref to the comment about BC&SK in Bolivia, Patterson (1998), Meadows (2003 ed.), Ernst (2009), are worth reading just to get a general handle on the story. BC&SK did not work in the San Vicente mines, they stopped in the village to spend the night, a long night it turned out to be. I don't understand the question about "the residence the two bandits were tracked back to." Cucho? Tomahuiaco? Verdugo? Tupiza?
CONTINUED . . . .
In ref to the comment about BC&SK in Bolivia, Patterson (1998), Meadows (2003 ed.), Ernst (2009), are worth reading just to get a general handle on the story. BC&SK did not work in the San Vicente mines, they stopped in the village to spend the night, a long night it turned out to be. I don't understand the question about "the residence the two bandits were tracked back to." Cucho? Tomahuiaco? Verdugo? Tupiza?
CONTINUED . . . .
Daniel Buck | 9:17 a.m. March 31, 2009
CONTINUED . . . .
The "American media," by the way, did not make the two bandits killed at San Vicente into BC&SK. It was years before the BC&SK connection filtered into the news in any major way, and that was largely because of stories told by American and British mine workers who had known BC&SK and had lived in the region in the early 1900s. But you are correct in that there are lots of remote possibilities, and that the question -- or questions -- may never be answered, certainly to everyones satisfaction. Certainly not mine.
Finally, Jerry, your comment about Mike Bell's article. I assume you are referring to his Spring 2000 WOLA Journal article. (There is no February 27, 2009, article.) In that article, Bell republished the text of the 1912 Buenos Aires Standard story, and discussed how it might have come to been written and how reliable might it be. All in all, Bell's article is an excellent rumination on an interesting source document.
Best,
Dan
The "American media," by the way, did not make the two bandits killed at San Vicente into BC&SK. It was years before the BC&SK connection filtered into the news in any major way, and that was largely because of stories told by American and British mine workers who had known BC&SK and had lived in the region in the early 1900s. But you are correct in that there are lots of remote possibilities, and that the question -- or questions -- may never be answered, certainly to everyones satisfaction. Certainly not mine.
Finally, Jerry, your comment about Mike Bell's article. I assume you are referring to his Spring 2000 WOLA Journal article. (There is no February 27, 2009, article.) In that article, Bell republished the text of the 1912 Buenos Aires Standard story, and discussed how it might have come to been written and how reliable might it be. All in all, Bell's article is an excellent rumination on an interesting source document.
Best,
Dan
Anonymous | 9:28 a.m. March 31, 2009
How many "continued's" are allowed, before an ISBN number is
required?
Daniel Buck | 9:49 a.m. March 31, 2009
Jerry,
You should do so. The Cassidy sightings must run in the hundreds. Patterson (1998) devotes two chapters to such stories.
There are dozens of tales of their deaths on three continents, from 1898 and through the 1970s. We collected about 60 in "Butch and Sundance: Still Dead?" NOLA Quarterly, vol. XXX, no. 2, April-June 2006. A summary can be found on line by Googling the title.
There are number of reasons for the multiplicity stories. Nature hates a vacuum. When someone disappears, whether he's Butch Cassidy or Jimmy Hoffa, people see him, even if he's dead. Then there are the impersonators, like William T. Phillips, or the pranksters, like Butch's brother Dan, who was said to have joked around that he was Butch.
Informants pass along rumors. Sifting through 100-year-old raw police files requires care and skepticism. In the wake of the 1997 murder of Italian designer Gianni Versace in Miami, the police released a description of his killer, and received hundreds of reports of his whereabouts, as far north as Montreal. Turns out he was holed up on a houseboat near the crime scene.
Dan
You should do so. The Cassidy sightings must run in the hundreds. Patterson (1998) devotes two chapters to such stories.
There are dozens of tales of their deaths on three continents, from 1898 and through the 1970s. We collected about 60 in "Butch and Sundance: Still Dead?" NOLA Quarterly, vol. XXX, no. 2, April-June 2006. A summary can be found on line by Googling the title.
There are number of reasons for the multiplicity stories. Nature hates a vacuum. When someone disappears, whether he's Butch Cassidy or Jimmy Hoffa, people see him, even if he's dead. Then there are the impersonators, like William T. Phillips, or the pranksters, like Butch's brother Dan, who was said to have joked around that he was Butch.
Informants pass along rumors. Sifting through 100-year-old raw police files requires care and skepticism. In the wake of the 1997 murder of Italian designer Gianni Versace in Miami, the police released a description of his killer, and received hundreds of reports of his whereabouts, as far north as Montreal. Turns out he was holed up on a houseboat near the crime scene.
Dan
Anonymous | 11:15 a.m. March 31, 2009
Come on Jerry, read what the experts have written. If "they" wrote it,
you know it has to be real. Save yourself all this grief, just read what Buck
says.
Before you do though, you might want to read some "other" views, as has been previously noted.
Before you do though, you might want to read some "other" views, as has been previously noted.
Ghosttown Bob | 11:28 a.m. March 31, 2009
Cassidy death and sighting stories are a dime a dozen. Look in any newspaper
archives and you will find dozens. One of the best I have read recently is the
Pool Hall story printed in the Price, Utah "Sun Advocate" recently.
"LeRoy!"
As for possible impersonators or sightings, even while Butch and Sundance were known definitely to be in South America there were sightings in the US. One such was Edward Holton as was reported in the Salt Lake Herald Aug 3, 1904 under the title "BUTCH" CASSIDY HAS A DOUBLE" This guy looked so much like Butch that even the police were fooled for a while. Since this guy was a gambler and card dealer, who roamed around the west and frequented saloons, it is possible that several sightings can be attributed to him.
As for possible impersonators or sightings, even while Butch and Sundance were known definitely to be in South America there were sightings in the US. One such was Edward Holton as was reported in the Salt Lake Herald Aug 3, 1904 under the title "BUTCH" CASSIDY HAS A DOUBLE" This guy looked so much like Butch that even the police were fooled for a while. Since this guy was a gambler and card dealer, who roamed around the west and frequented saloons, it is possible that several sightings can be attributed to him.
Rookie Writer | 11:45 a.m. March 31, 2009
Was wondering what the rates are to advertise and promote your oun agenda. Will
I pay the same line rate as Buck does?
RW
RW
Anonymous | 11:52 a.m. March 31, 2009
Why don't the expert's mention the story told by the Utah State
Trooper? I think his name was Johnson. His family knew the Parker family well.
But it does talk of Mr. Cassidy returning to Utah, after he was killed in So.
Am. This might cause certain one's to frown on such a story. Ya think?
Daniel Buck | 12:55 p.m. March 31, 2009
The troopers name was Merrill Johnson, and the incident took place, according to
Johnson, on July 17, 1941. Youll find the story in Patterson (1998), pp.
235-37. If the visit is true, Butch Cassidy was alive four years after his
sister Lula said he had died.
I think the Johnson story first appeared Butch Cassidy Lives? Harold Schindler, Salt Lake Tribune, October 10, 1993.
Another ramble through the Butch resurrection maze is Did Butch Cassidy Return? His Family Cant Decide, Daniel Buck & Anne Meadows, WOLA JOURNAL, vol. VI, no. 3 Spring 1998. You can find the text online with an assist from the baqueanos at Google.
Cheers,
Dan
I think the Johnson story first appeared Butch Cassidy Lives? Harold Schindler, Salt Lake Tribune, October 10, 1993.
Another ramble through the Butch resurrection maze is Did Butch Cassidy Return? His Family Cant Decide, Daniel Buck & Anne Meadows, WOLA JOURNAL, vol. VI, no. 3 Spring 1998. You can find the text online with an assist from the baqueanos at Google.
Cheers,
Dan
Jerry Nickle | 1:29 p.m. March 31, 2009
Dan
Do you actually believe your WOLA articles will be accepted by the public as more credible than the Pinkerton files?
Around my house my family cannot agree on what to have for dinner. The same is true for Bill Long. It means nothing if the Parker family cannot agree about Butch
Do you actually believe your WOLA articles will be accepted by the public as more credible than the Pinkerton files?
Around my house my family cannot agree on what to have for dinner. The same is true for Bill Long. It means nothing if the Parker family cannot agree about Butch
Ghosttown Bob | 1:35 p.m. March 31, 2009
Dan: Some of the Morrells, Longs, and Parkers Don't like to be reminded of
your article. They prefer to cover up the fact that not everyone in their
families believe Butch and Sundance came back. Particularly hard for them is the
assertion that Max Parker intimated before he died that Butch never came back
from So. American, let alone visited the family.
Anonymous | 1:50 p.m. March 31, 2009
"The troopers name was Merrill Johnson, and the incident took place,
according to Johnson, on July 17, 1941. Youll find the story in Patterson
(1998), pp. 235-37. If the visit is true, Butch Cassidy was alive four years
after his sister Lula said he had died."------As stated by Buck.
Now I am confused. You (whether you admit it or not) accused Lula of having a "corroded" (due to age) mind. I also understand you wrote Dora Flack, asking if she thought Lula was a liar.
Now all of a sudden, to back up your dis-credit of the Johnson story, you want to use someone you don't believe told the truth, Lula Parker Betenson. Which way do you want it Daniel? Apparently, "shall we say"--Both!
I think I read somewhere that Lula also said, her brother Butch, was really Zimmer. But who would believe Mrs. Betenson!
Now I am confused. You (whether you admit it or not) accused Lula of having a "corroded" (due to age) mind. I also understand you wrote Dora Flack, asking if she thought Lula was a liar.
Now all of a sudden, to back up your dis-credit of the Johnson story, you want to use someone you don't believe told the truth, Lula Parker Betenson. Which way do you want it Daniel? Apparently, "shall we say"--Both!
I think I read somewhere that Lula also said, her brother Butch, was really Zimmer. But who would believe Mrs. Betenson!
Jerry Nickle | 1:52 p.m. March 31, 2009
Dan
You say Mike Bells Buenos Aires discovery is excellent. You making that statement takes my breath away. Lets start with the first page.
The article was supposed to have been published April 17, 1912. This is four years after you say B&S were killed. Why did it take four years after their deaths before this article was published?
Where is Powder Springs Nevada?
The Winnemucca bank robbery happened in Sept 1900 not 1902 as the article states.
Who is this leader the Napoleon Flat Nose George Carver the Colonel who had a military appearance?
After we cover this lets go to the second page.
You say Mike Bells Buenos Aires discovery is excellent. You making that statement takes my breath away. Lets start with the first page.
The article was supposed to have been published April 17, 1912. This is four years after you say B&S were killed. Why did it take four years after their deaths before this article was published?
Where is Powder Springs Nevada?
The Winnemucca bank robbery happened in Sept 1900 not 1902 as the article states.
Who is this leader the Napoleon Flat Nose George Carver the Colonel who had a military appearance?
After we cover this lets go to the second page.
Daniel Buck | 2:17 p.m. March 31, 2009
Jerry,
You didn't read my post, and you certainly have not read Mike Bell's essay.
All of the issues you raise in your 1:52 p.m. March 31, 2009, post are discussed in Bell's essay. That's the entire point of his essay; it's a rumination on the Buenos Aires Standard article.
Bell goes into who might have written the article, how it got published in 1912, the errors contained in it, etc.
Best,
Dan
You didn't read my post, and you certainly have not read Mike Bell's essay.
All of the issues you raise in your 1:52 p.m. March 31, 2009, post are discussed in Bell's essay. That's the entire point of his essay; it's a rumination on the Buenos Aires Standard article.
Bell goes into who might have written the article, how it got published in 1912, the errors contained in it, etc.
Best,
Dan
Ghosttown Bob | 2:20 p.m. March 31, 2009
Jerry: I don't think that Dan has commented on the veracity or accuracy of
that article. He has left that to Mike Bell. I am sure you have read
Donna's transcription, there are many inaccuracies and exaggerations, there
are also many things that can be collaborated. I thought it sounded like a
souped up version of stuff that James Horan wrote. (style and tone, bot
individual stories) Why don't you get Mike's articles as well. He does
a pretty good job of noting what is accurate and what is not.
I'm still trying to get a copy of this for you.
I'm still trying to get a copy of this for you.
Anonymous | 2:42 p.m. March 31, 2009
May I be allowed to use "reportedly said" info? I would think so, as
Buck does.
I speak of a fellow I knew, who had a brother that worked with Merrill Johnson for a number of years. He claimed Johnson was one of the most truthful men he ever knew. I believe they were Utah State Police officers, or similiar positions. As I never met the brother or Johnson face to face, this is "reported" infomation.
Am I the only one to notice how the "foremost authority" will use "any & all" information. (whether it is true, matters not) Only requirement is, it must agree with what he puts out.
But the first word spoken or written, that does not agree with Buck, oh my, there is no way that can be correct. Family doesn't agree, Zimmer does not agree, all the hearsay that Buck has, does agree (of course there are equal amounts, if not more, that do NOT agree), that you won't hear about.
Mr Buck, for someone who only proved you can have a hole dug and collect what others say, you sure make a lot of noise.
I speak of a fellow I knew, who had a brother that worked with Merrill Johnson for a number of years. He claimed Johnson was one of the most truthful men he ever knew. I believe they were Utah State Police officers, or similiar positions. As I never met the brother or Johnson face to face, this is "reported" infomation.
Am I the only one to notice how the "foremost authority" will use "any & all" information. (whether it is true, matters not) Only requirement is, it must agree with what he puts out.
But the first word spoken or written, that does not agree with Buck, oh my, there is no way that can be correct. Family doesn't agree, Zimmer does not agree, all the hearsay that Buck has, does agree (of course there are equal amounts, if not more, that do NOT agree), that you won't hear about.
Mr Buck, for someone who only proved you can have a hole dug and collect what others say, you sure make a lot of noise.
Jerry Nickle | 3:07 p.m. March 31, 2009
This is the introduction to Bells discovery as written by Donna Ernsts in her
book.
The Standard of Buenos Aires related the story of the Winnemucca (Nevada) bank robbery, as told by the Sundance Kid to an acquaintance in Argentina, three years after the deaths of Sundance and Butch in Bolivia, the unnamed acquaintance wrote the account for this English-language newspaper in Buenos Aires. The article was discovered by British Wild Bunch researcher Michael Bell, who later wrote pieces comparing the many new, finds with the few inaccuracies.
That statement is breathtaking. She states Sundance is the source for this article. What are the many new finds and what are the few inaccuracies? She does not include Mikes Bells analysis and because of that she left the readers with the impression the article was mostly accurate. I wonder if the University of Okalahoma is happy with her by her doing this? Where can I see Bells analysis?
Dan
Please use words this cowboy can understand without using a dictionary.
The Standard of Buenos Aires related the story of the Winnemucca (Nevada) bank robbery, as told by the Sundance Kid to an acquaintance in Argentina, three years after the deaths of Sundance and Butch in Bolivia, the unnamed acquaintance wrote the account for this English-language newspaper in Buenos Aires. The article was discovered by British Wild Bunch researcher Michael Bell, who later wrote pieces comparing the many new, finds with the few inaccuracies.
That statement is breathtaking. She states Sundance is the source for this article. What are the many new finds and what are the few inaccuracies? She does not include Mikes Bells analysis and because of that she left the readers with the impression the article was mostly accurate. I wonder if the University of Okalahoma is happy with her by her doing this? Where can I see Bells analysis?
Dan
Please use words this cowboy can understand without using a dictionary.
Jerry Nickle | 3:32 p.m. March 31, 2009
Because the Parker family and mine do not have complete agreement on Butch or Sundance does not mean much. They cannot all be dismissed as Dan Buck has done. Different people have a different perception or a different reason or motive for their beliefs. I would think the experts would have the ability to understand this, but I guess not.
Jerry Nickle | 3:56 p.m. March 31, 2009
In 1912 Buenos Aires there were only a few people who ever heard of B&S.
Why would a newspaper publish an article that would not sell? Dan Buck, Donna
Ernst and Mike Bell say this article was published which I doubt. I would like
to see the original 1912 article. Dan please show me where I can see this
original article and the receipt for gold watch.
Ghosttown Bob | 4:08 p.m. March 31, 2009
Jerry, I don't have a problem that different family members have different
perceptions or opinions. That is how it should be. What is disconcerting is when
it is presented or intimated that the families are presenting a united and
unanimous front when in actuality the family is not.
A C | 4:28 p.m. March 31, 2009
"Then there are the impersonators, like William T. Phillips, or the
pranksters, like Butch's brother Dan, who WAS SAID to have joked around
that he was Butch." Words of wisdom: dbuck!
In the last month I have had the pleasure of becoming friends with the above mentioned Dan Parker's grandson. I have not met him (so this may only be reportedly said) but we have spoken on the phone and have exchanged some emails. A quiet, sincere gentleman. I wish I could share with all of you his comments and thoughts on our "in house expert", dbuck. That won't happen here. You can imagine what he had to say.
Isn't it a real shame, that someone like Mr. Parker, has no desire to become involved, when he would (like many others) be subjected to buck. As we all know, there have been a number of people who could share "real factual" family stories. Buck has denied us this, with his know-all arrogance.
I am glad my friend, Mr. Parker, will not allow himself to join that group.
That is quite an accomplishment Mr. Buck. Be proud, it's your only one!
A C
In the last month I have had the pleasure of becoming friends with the above mentioned Dan Parker's grandson. I have not met him (so this may only be reportedly said) but we have spoken on the phone and have exchanged some emails. A quiet, sincere gentleman. I wish I could share with all of you his comments and thoughts on our "in house expert", dbuck. That won't happen here. You can imagine what he had to say.
Isn't it a real shame, that someone like Mr. Parker, has no desire to become involved, when he would (like many others) be subjected to buck. As we all know, there have been a number of people who could share "real factual" family stories. Buck has denied us this, with his know-all arrogance.
I am glad my friend, Mr. Parker, will not allow himself to join that group.
That is quite an accomplishment Mr. Buck. Be proud, it's your only one!
A C
Jerry Nickle | 5:02 p.m. March 31, 2009
This may seem unusual to some but I quite enjoy Dan Buck and Ghost Town Bob.
They are not going to intimidate or discourage me. I know this subject better
than they do and I get pleasure when I trump them.
Gaylen Robison | 5:52 p.m. March 31, 2009
Hi Sheri. You are very close. Harry Alonzo Longabaugh (AKA William Henry Long)
was born Feb. 1867. Luzernia Allred Morrell Long was born April 27, 1857. Ten
years difference and she was thirty eight when their first daughter was born.
Apparently it was a marriage of convenience. For him, it was the perfect
hideout. For her, she was a widow with children and no money. If it wasn't
for him the whole family would have starved. The whole time he was gone she had
money and purchased property with cash. When he finally came home, he stayed
home. If we had all the details now, somebody could write the perfect romance
story.
Anonymous | 9:08 p.m. March 31, 2009
"Dan
Please use words this cowboy can understand without using a dictionary."
It has been said, "if you blow enough smoke, it will take some time before anyone discovers--there isn't much fire under the smoke".
Please use words this cowboy can understand without using a dictionary."
It has been said, "if you blow enough smoke, it will take some time before anyone discovers--there isn't much fire under the smoke".
Sheri | 9:38 p.m. March 31, 2009
Gaylen:
You say "Luzernia Allred Morrell Long was born April 27, 1857". Why does her grave marker say 1854? I can understand Harry/William changing his birth date, but not Luzernia.
You say "Luzernia Allred Morrell Long was born April 27, 1857". Why does her grave marker say 1854? I can understand Harry/William changing his birth date, but not Luzernia.
Gaylen Robison | 9:01 a.m. April 1, 2009
Sheri:
I don't think Luzernia changed her birth date. There are genealogy records of the same person that has different dates. I'm assuming somebody made an error. I really made an error when I didn't ask my grandma more questions about her parents before she died. I never thought it would come to this. I'm glad it did.
I appreciate the questions.
I don't think Luzernia changed her birth date. There are genealogy records of the same person that has different dates. I'm assuming somebody made an error. I really made an error when I didn't ask my grandma more questions about her parents before she died. I never thought it would come to this. I'm glad it did.
I appreciate the questions.
Sheri | 11:25 a.m. April 1, 2009
Thanks Gaylen!
Now one more question to anyone out there that has a constructive answer...I read "Digging up Butch and Sundance" a long time ago, and know that Sundance's brother Harvey was exhumed to get a mtDNA sample to compare to the body exhumed in South America. I'm sure someone has Harvey's mtDNA profile that could be compared to to that of William Long. Why isn't that being made available so that we can put all this to rest one way or another?
Now one more question to anyone out there that has a constructive answer...I read "Digging up Butch and Sundance" a long time ago, and know that Sundance's brother Harvey was exhumed to get a mtDNA sample to compare to the body exhumed in South America. I'm sure someone has Harvey's mtDNA profile that could be compared to to that of William Long. Why isn't that being made available so that we can put all this to rest one way or another?
Horse Creek Cowboy | 1:04 p.m. April 1, 2009
Snow and ice fog. Out of boredom, looked in again.
Nothing has changed except for the comments relating to handwriting. Sundance was literate. Had a library card in Pennsylvania, wrote his family from South America. Jerry continues to dismiss any comments contrary to his preconceived conclusion. Dan is a glutton for punishment.
When the forensic examination was made of Long's skeleton, what was his indicated height? Has anybody bothered to do a computerized overlay of Long and Sundance to triangulate the distance between eyes, nose, ears, mouth, etc., i.e. look at the differences rather than the similarities.
Nothing has changed except for the comments relating to handwriting. Sundance was literate. Had a library card in Pennsylvania, wrote his family from South America. Jerry continues to dismiss any comments contrary to his preconceived conclusion. Dan is a glutton for punishment.
When the forensic examination was made of Long's skeleton, what was his indicated height? Has anybody bothered to do a computerized overlay of Long and Sundance to triangulate the distance between eyes, nose, ears, mouth, etc., i.e. look at the differences rather than the similarities.
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