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Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?
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Disintrested Observer | 8:20 a.m. March 16, 2009
Zeke:
The game AF, Anon., JAR and others are playing is called discredit the historian. They are just going through Ernst's book picking out things to criticize. The main purpose is to discredit her by pointing out small flaws in her research, thereby hoping to discredit her and her book. Once this is done, they can then present Mr. Nickels findings with little opposition. This tactic rarely works, and usually shows the small mindedness of those who engage in it.
Siringo pages 322 & 323 describe how Siringo loses the trail at the mouth of the Arkansas River on the Mississippi River. He calls one of the outlaws he was chasing Owens.
Jeesh, what a bunch of snarky hacks.
The game AF, Anon., JAR and others are playing is called discredit the historian. They are just going through Ernst's book picking out things to criticize. The main purpose is to discredit her by pointing out small flaws in her research, thereby hoping to discredit her and her book. Once this is done, they can then present Mr. Nickels findings with little opposition. This tactic rarely works, and usually shows the small mindedness of those who engage in it.
Siringo pages 322 & 323 describe how Siringo loses the trail at the mouth of the Arkansas River on the Mississippi River. He calls one of the outlaws he was chasing Owens.
Jeesh, what a bunch of snarky hacks.
Anonymous | 10:13 a.m. March 16, 2009
Disintrested Observer
A historian is an individual who studies and writes about history, and is regarded as an authority on it. Historians are concerned with the continuous, systematic narrative and research of past events as relating to the human race; as well as the study of all events in time. Although "historian" can be used to describe amateur and professional historians alike, it is reserved more recently for those who have acquired graduate degrees in the discipline.
"historian" can be used to describe amateur"
Discredit the historian. Jeesh,
A historian is an individual who studies and writes about history, and is regarded as an authority on it. Historians are concerned with the continuous, systematic narrative and research of past events as relating to the human race; as well as the study of all events in time. Although "historian" can be used to describe amateur and professional historians alike, it is reserved more recently for those who have acquired graduate degrees in the discipline.
"historian" can be used to describe amateur"
Discredit the historian. Jeesh,
Comments continue below
Jerry Nickle | 11:12 a.m. March 16, 2009
What is the significance of the Magdelena jail?
Jerry Nickle | 11:36 a.m. March 16, 2009
After the Wilcox robbery Charlie Siringo followed Butch and Elza Lays trail to
southern Utah and then lost it. Butch and Elza went on to Alma New Mexico which
Siringo never discovered. Siringo believing he was on their trail went through
Colorado, Kansas, Indian Territory, Missouri, Tennessee and Mississippi. Donna
Ernst is trying to follow Siringo and in this case Siringo was lost.
Jerry Nickle | 11:49 a.m. March 16, 2009
Come on now Disintrested Observer
Read pages 188 198 in Ernst new book.
Do you call that a small flaw?
Read pages 188 198 in Ernst new book.
Do you call that a small flaw?
Disintrested Observer | 12:48 p.m. March 16, 2009
Anonymous:
So, do you consider David McCullough an "Historian?" He graduated in English Literature. I do believe Donna Ernst has written two books on Longabaugh, the last by University of Oklahoma Press, and your have published how many?
So, do you consider David McCullough an "Historian?" He graduated in English Literature. I do believe Donna Ernst has written two books on Longabaugh, the last by University of Oklahoma Press, and your have published how many?
Disintrested Observer | 12:49 p.m. March 16, 2009
Mr. Nickle - and your problem with pages 188-198 is?
Disintrested Observer | 12:57 p.m. March 16, 2009
Oh, yes I think you called this a forgery.
Disintrested Observer | 1:02 p.m. March 16, 2009
Of course, you call anything that doesn't agree with your theory a forgery.
How convenient.
Jerry Nickle | 1:28 p.m. March 16, 2009
There is nothing in pages 188-198 that conflict with my theory. Pages 188-1988
do conflict with recorded fact.
Jerry Nickle | 1:54 p.m. March 16, 2009
With my book I will refer primarily to the Pinkerton Files, Charlie Siringo.
Donna Ernst, Marriage license. Death certificates, Census records and News paper
articles of the time. For Bolivia I will use Horan. I see no reason to doubt
Dan Bucks account of the Rio Galagos robbery. I will refer to the Frank Ahler
account as given in Bucks book. I will not accuse anyone of faking documents
or forgery. I will just ignore what I believe necessary. The family records I
use will be made available for others to review.
Disintrested Observer | 1:54 p.m. March 16, 2009
The story may contain many inaccuracies, but that doesn't constitute a
forgery. The Story was published in the April 17, 1912 edition of the Buenos
Aires Standard as claimed by Mrs. Ernst.
Zeke | 2:29 p.m. March 16, 2009
Mr. Nickle,
I honestly came to this subject--your claims about your grandfather--wanting very much to believe you. I know Dr. McCullough and trust him without question. However, the frequent irrational (I believe) claims you have made on this message board make it hard for me to take your theory seriously:
"I will just ignore what I believe necessary."
This is not how history should be written, even history of the frankly amateurish sort that passes in the study of outlaws! One cannot ignore what one believes to be fake--that HAS to be dealt with!
Others' claims that history should be approached like physics--proved facts only--could be most easily directed at your stated approach to history. When a scientist finds evidence that refutes a theory, he/she must deal with that evidence, whether or not it proves to be accurate. To do otherwise is a recipe for bad science. Taking your supporters' approach to history, your approach to writing this book would prove to be egregiously bad history. Lets say the documents are fake (I'm no expert and honestly don't know), that needs to be investigated.
I honestly came to this subject--your claims about your grandfather--wanting very much to believe you. I know Dr. McCullough and trust him without question. However, the frequent irrational (I believe) claims you have made on this message board make it hard for me to take your theory seriously:
"I will just ignore what I believe necessary."
This is not how history should be written, even history of the frankly amateurish sort that passes in the study of outlaws! One cannot ignore what one believes to be fake--that HAS to be dealt with!
Others' claims that history should be approached like physics--proved facts only--could be most easily directed at your stated approach to history. When a scientist finds evidence that refutes a theory, he/she must deal with that evidence, whether or not it proves to be accurate. To do otherwise is a recipe for bad science. Taking your supporters' approach to history, your approach to writing this book would prove to be egregiously bad history. Lets say the documents are fake (I'm no expert and honestly don't know), that needs to be investigated.
Zeke | 2:42 p.m. March 16, 2009
I truly do not mean to be rude by saying these things. I really do hope that
DNA proves you are correct.
It's just that one cannot criticize an author for including an article from a ancient magazine in an appendix, and then claim he will ignore contrary accounts in his own book! It is obvious that the article is impossible to verify and is to be interpreted by the reader as to its accuracy. There is no way to claim this was included in bad faith, though Ernst could have gone to greater lengths to point out some of its more unbelievable claims--I have a hard time believing any details of the locomotive chase scene!
You need to make at least some effort to validate (note that I didn't say prove) your forgery claims. Proof of much of anything is probably impossible to come by in our case, but just because one says something is true doesn't make it so.
I hope I am not coming across too harshly because I really am sad about the contentious tone this whole thing has taken on.
It's just that one cannot criticize an author for including an article from a ancient magazine in an appendix, and then claim he will ignore contrary accounts in his own book! It is obvious that the article is impossible to verify and is to be interpreted by the reader as to its accuracy. There is no way to claim this was included in bad faith, though Ernst could have gone to greater lengths to point out some of its more unbelievable claims--I have a hard time believing any details of the locomotive chase scene!
You need to make at least some effort to validate (note that I didn't say prove) your forgery claims. Proof of much of anything is probably impossible to come by in our case, but just because one says something is true doesn't make it so.
I hope I am not coming across too harshly because I really am sad about the contentious tone this whole thing has taken on.
Disintrested Observer | 3:07 p.m. March 16, 2009
Zeke
I hope you do not think I was referring to Dr. McCullough of the University of Utah. I am sure his credentials are impeccable, and that he is a good scientist. I was actually referring to David McCullough the Historian and author of several acclaimed books including "John Adams" and "1776"
Thank you for your insights.
I hope you do not think I was referring to Dr. McCullough of the University of Utah. I am sure his credentials are impeccable, and that he is a good scientist. I was actually referring to David McCullough the Historian and author of several acclaimed books including "John Adams" and "1776"
Thank you for your insights.
Jerry Nickle | 3:10 p.m. March 16, 2009
Zeke Writes
"Outright Dishonesty and trying to pass off fiction as fact is a bit of a different matter and can get an author in some trouble, especially with a university press. I dont see any evidence of anything rising to that level."
In Ernst book on page 130 it refers to a Pinkerton memo then using this memo as a source Ernst states, Sundance and Etta checked into the Pierce Medical Institute in Buffalo New York in January 1901. I have that Pinkerton memo and it states they were at the Buffalo hospital in the summer of 1901. Does this rise to your level?
"Outright Dishonesty and trying to pass off fiction as fact is a bit of a different matter and can get an author in some trouble, especially with a university press. I dont see any evidence of anything rising to that level."
In Ernst book on page 130 it refers to a Pinkerton memo then using this memo as a source Ernst states, Sundance and Etta checked into the Pierce Medical Institute in Buffalo New York in January 1901. I have that Pinkerton memo and it states they were at the Buffalo hospital in the summer of 1901. Does this rise to your level?
Anonymous | 3:19 p.m. March 16, 2009
I'm waiting to read how light was invented by a Utahan.
Jerry Nickle | 3:23 p.m. March 16, 2009
Disintrested Observer | 1:54 p.m. March 16, 2009
The story may contain many inaccuracies, but that doesn't constitute a forgery. The Story was published in the April 17, 1912 edition of the Buenos Aires Standard as claimed by Mrs. Ernst.
Doesnt Danna Ernst have a responsibility to point out the many inaccuracies and question the validly of this story?
Is the original document off limits for me to review?
The story may contain many inaccuracies, but that doesn't constitute a forgery. The Story was published in the April 17, 1912 edition of the Buenos Aires Standard as claimed by Mrs. Ernst.
Doesnt Danna Ernst have a responsibility to point out the many inaccuracies and question the validly of this story?
Is the original document off limits for me to review?
Horse Creek Cowboy | 3:31 p.m. March 16, 2009
Allegedly and I use the word advisedly, at the end of a 1901 trail drive for
the WS, an indivdual going by the name Harry Longabaugh, was signed into the
jail to sleep it off. the last time I was in Magdalena coming back from a hasty
trip to Whitewater Canyon near Alma, I neglected to stop and check, I have
looked for the reference, but not exhaustively. I tend to write references on
whatever pad I have with me at the time and later I can not find the reference.
The following references have Butch, Sundance and Ethel in Buenos Aries in 1901:
Marcelo Gavirati:
Buscados en la Patagonia.
La historia no contada de Butch Cassidy
Raul Cea
Jarred Jones in a 1941 interview
and
Patterson
Kelly has it in '02 but gives zip references.
The 01 trail to the River Platte Bank seems to be based on Jorge Newbery.
The difficulty I have is that anouncing new theories before that are fully vetted, is that they take on lives of their own and are endlessly repeated like the canard that Tom Horn won a Congressional Metal of Honor or that William Phillps was really Butch.
The following references have Butch, Sundance and Ethel in Buenos Aries in 1901:
Marcelo Gavirati:
Buscados en la Patagonia.
La historia no contada de Butch Cassidy
Raul Cea
Jarred Jones in a 1941 interview
and
Patterson
Kelly has it in '02 but gives zip references.
The 01 trail to the River Platte Bank seems to be based on Jorge Newbery.
The difficulty I have is that anouncing new theories before that are fully vetted, is that they take on lives of their own and are endlessly repeated like the canard that Tom Horn won a Congressional Metal of Honor or that William Phillps was really Butch.
Zeke | 3:39 p.m. March 16, 2009
Disinterested Observer:
"I hope you do not think I was referring to Dr. McCullough of the University of Utah."
No, nothing to do with that. Dr. McCullough is the anthropologist who is working on the DNA comparison. They just happen to have the same last name... my comment had nothing to do with your.
Mr. Nickle:
"Does this rise to your level?"
I am no authority on this or Pinkerton files so I'm not sure why you're asking me. Speculating wildly, it might be a citation error, it might be an honest mistake, a purposeful misrepresentation, or you may be confused about the files referenced or which file or files are referenced. There's no way for me to know so I'll stay out of it except to say that if there is historical fabrication going on here, I'm sure the University of Oklahoma Press would be interested in knowing about it (they have a very good reputation to maintain!).
"I hope you do not think I was referring to Dr. McCullough of the University of Utah."
No, nothing to do with that. Dr. McCullough is the anthropologist who is working on the DNA comparison. They just happen to have the same last name... my comment had nothing to do with your.
Mr. Nickle:
"Does this rise to your level?"
I am no authority on this or Pinkerton files so I'm not sure why you're asking me. Speculating wildly, it might be a citation error, it might be an honest mistake, a purposeful misrepresentation, or you may be confused about the files referenced or which file or files are referenced. There's no way for me to know so I'll stay out of it except to say that if there is historical fabrication going on here, I'm sure the University of Oklahoma Press would be interested in knowing about it (they have a very good reputation to maintain!).
Hoosier Historian | 3:40 p.m. March 16, 2009
Would like Zeke's thoughts on the following two stories, about history.
John Dillenger born 1904, died 1940. He was born and raised in Martinsville, OH. He and a friend robbed a gas station, John went to jail, the friend did not. After jail, where John met and became friends with Clyde Barrow and Machine Gun Kelly, his life of crime commenced. Melvin Purvis, head of the FBI, moved him to Public Enemy # 1, he was the third criminal named as #1. He escaped jail in Ft. Wayne, IN,. by kidnapping the Sherriff. John died in a hail of bullets at the Little Bohemia Lodge, in North central Wisconsin, in 1940. He was shot by John E. Hoover, agent in charge, Northern Dist of Wisconsin.
H H (A different version will follow)
John Dillenger born 1904, died 1940. He was born and raised in Martinsville, OH. He and a friend robbed a gas station, John went to jail, the friend did not. After jail, where John met and became friends with Clyde Barrow and Machine Gun Kelly, his life of crime commenced. Melvin Purvis, head of the FBI, moved him to Public Enemy # 1, he was the third criminal named as #1. He escaped jail in Ft. Wayne, IN,. by kidnapping the Sherriff. John died in a hail of bullets at the Little Bohemia Lodge, in North central Wisconsin, in 1940. He was shot by John E. Hoover, agent in charge, Northern Dist of Wisconsin.
H H (A different version will follow)
Hoosier Historian | 3:48 p.m. March 16, 2009
John Dillinger was born 6-22-03 in Indianapolis, IN. He spent most of his youth
in Morresville, IN. Here as a young man, with a friend, they tried to rob a
small grocery store. Dillingers family had little money, he went to jail. His
friend had money, he avoided jail.
In jail, John met some less than desirable men. This soon led to a life of crime. Soon, he had the attention of J Edgar Hoover, FBI, who named Dillinger the first, Public Enemy #1. Dillinger could think and he had nerve. He escaped from a jail in Crown Point, IN., using a shoe polish stained wooden pistol.
On the evening of 7-22-34, Melvin Purvis and other FBI men, ended Dillingers career, in an alley beside the Biograph Theater in Chicago.
A favorite story a friend tells: the radio was broadcasting news that Dillinger had just robbed a bank in Kansas. My friend said, knew it was not true, John was sitting in a car across the street,in Mooresville, talking to my sister.
Which do you like better Zeke?
One has a lot of factual information, the other hardly any.
H H
In jail, John met some less than desirable men. This soon led to a life of crime. Soon, he had the attention of J Edgar Hoover, FBI, who named Dillinger the first, Public Enemy #1. Dillinger could think and he had nerve. He escaped from a jail in Crown Point, IN., using a shoe polish stained wooden pistol.
On the evening of 7-22-34, Melvin Purvis and other FBI men, ended Dillingers career, in an alley beside the Biograph Theater in Chicago.
A favorite story a friend tells: the radio was broadcasting news that Dillinger had just robbed a bank in Kansas. My friend said, knew it was not true, John was sitting in a car across the street,in Mooresville, talking to my sister.
Which do you like better Zeke?
One has a lot of factual information, the other hardly any.
H H
Jerry Nickle | 3:56 p.m. March 16, 2009
HCC
Are you saying Marcelo Gavirati is more credible than the Pinkerton files?
I would not be surprised if Harry Longabaugh was in jail at the end of the 1901 trail drive in Magdalena You realize of course what this means for Marcelo Gavirati.
Are you saying Marcelo Gavirati is more credible than the Pinkerton files?
I would not be surprised if Harry Longabaugh was in jail at the end of the 1901 trail drive in Magdalena You realize of course what this means for Marcelo Gavirati.
Jerry Nickle | 4:12 p.m. March 16, 2009
If Harry longabaugh was in jail at the end of 1901 this would be the only time
he used his real name since the he became an escaped fugitive for the Nov 29,
1892 Malta train robbery. I doubt the person in the Magdalena jail was
Sundance.
Jerry Nickle | 4:15 p.m. March 16, 2009
Zeke
I will be glad to fax or email you that Pinkerton memo. You dont have to be an expert to understand this.
I will be glad to fax or email you that Pinkerton memo. You dont have to be an expert to understand this.
Zeke | 4:33 p.m. March 16, 2009
HH:
"Which do you like better Zeke?"
I don't like either one. I have no context. Context is everything. I don't know who you are, who wrote the accounts, what their sources are, what more knowledgable people than myself have written about the accounts, I don't have access to the arguments between historians involved, etc., etc. Moreover, I don't know anything about Dillinger other than he was a criminal nor do I have any interest in him.
So, I have no clue which is more accurate and I'm not sure what presenting two accounts with no context is supposed to prove. (With Ernst there is context: various other books and documents. As evident on this board, various people have formed various opinions using this context).
In the interest of the wild speculation you're asking me for, I'd imagine there's a lot more validated historical documentation of Dillinger's life than there is for Sundance; especially given his era being closer to ours. But I'm not an expert on Dillinger and I don't want to be.
"Which do you like better Zeke?"
I don't like either one. I have no context. Context is everything. I don't know who you are, who wrote the accounts, what their sources are, what more knowledgable people than myself have written about the accounts, I don't have access to the arguments between historians involved, etc., etc. Moreover, I don't know anything about Dillinger other than he was a criminal nor do I have any interest in him.
So, I have no clue which is more accurate and I'm not sure what presenting two accounts with no context is supposed to prove. (With Ernst there is context: various other books and documents. As evident on this board, various people have formed various opinions using this context).
In the interest of the wild speculation you're asking me for, I'd imagine there's a lot more validated historical documentation of Dillinger's life than there is for Sundance; especially given his era being closer to ours. But I'm not an expert on Dillinger and I don't want to be.
Zeke | 4:40 p.m. March 16, 2009
Mr. Nickle,
You could put it up on your website. I'd certainly enjoy seeing it. Can I email you through your website? I appreciate the offer.
You could put it up on your website. I'd certainly enjoy seeing it. Can I email you through your website? I appreciate the offer.
Jerry Nickle | 4:43 p.m. March 16, 2009
HCC
Who vetted Marcelo Gavirati or pages 188-198 or 130 in Ernst book? Who do you suggest vet my work Dan Buck? Vetting has not been done until now, with me doing the vetting.
Who vetted Marcelo Gavirati or pages 188-198 or 130 in Ernst book? Who do you suggest vet my work Dan Buck? Vetting has not been done until now, with me doing the vetting.
Duchesne County Roots | 4:50 p.m. March 16, 2009
My gut feeling says this guy was the Sundance Kid. I haven't done any
research! I am a decendant of the Morrell family.
Zeke | 4:53 p.m. March 16, 2009
Mr. Nickle,
On further investigation, Ms. Ernst (unfortunately) doesn't cite a particular Pinkerton document. It seems possible (likely even) that there may be more than one relevent document with contradictory information in the Pinkerton archives. So there's really not much to go on in terms of professional misconduct, at least given what I can see. It may not be totally convincing research but it is no worse than what you propose to do in ignoring contradictory documents in your forthcoming book.
On further investigation, Ms. Ernst (unfortunately) doesn't cite a particular Pinkerton document. It seems possible (likely even) that there may be more than one relevent document with contradictory information in the Pinkerton archives. So there's really not much to go on in terms of professional misconduct, at least given what I can see. It may not be totally convincing research but it is no worse than what you propose to do in ignoring contradictory documents in your forthcoming book.
Anonymous | 5:15 p.m. March 16, 2009
Oh Mr. Zeke,
Does your need of "context" refer to having a lot of other prople's opinions? Probably, more inaccurate than not? Dillinger, Sundance, anyone you want, I would guess their is an abundance of "context" available. My guess is the HH was trying to illustrate the difference in what is probably close to the truth snd one that is not. Say a "historian" uses one of them in a future publication, do you now have context?
Some would still hope to read about what really happened. Try reading Harv Murdock's book about his Grandfather, Elzy Lay. His context .... he was there. Facts Sir not based on what someone has said or written.
Does your need of "context" refer to having a lot of other prople's opinions? Probably, more inaccurate than not? Dillinger, Sundance, anyone you want, I would guess their is an abundance of "context" available. My guess is the HH was trying to illustrate the difference in what is probably close to the truth snd one that is not. Say a "historian" uses one of them in a future publication, do you now have context?
Some would still hope to read about what really happened. Try reading Harv Murdock's book about his Grandfather, Elzy Lay. His context .... he was there. Facts Sir not based on what someone has said or written.
Anonymous | 5:50 p.m. March 16, 2009
For a 'disintrested Observer" you seem to be wasting a lot of ink.
Zeke | 5:55 p.m. March 16, 2009
Anon.:
Mr. Murdock's book is in the mail.
Go ahead and pick and choose your accounts of what "really happened." Facts are not based on what you say or choose to believe or what Ms. Ernst or Mr. Murdock say either, for that matter (not that I doubt his account, I haven't even read his book yet).
I'm done with this discussion. It has become completely asinine. Neither you nor I know for sure what the happened in 1901 or 1908 and we probably never will. You may choose to put your faith in one account over another while I do not. While that may clarify things in your own mind, it does nothing to convince me or anyone else that your purported critical thinking and intuitive skills have identified what "really happened." Your condescending, arrogant, and laughable belief that you have a monopoly on truth has become more than tiresome. The anonymity of the internet forum certainly seems to bring out the worst in people (perhaps myself included).
Mr. Murdock's book is in the mail.
Go ahead and pick and choose your accounts of what "really happened." Facts are not based on what you say or choose to believe or what Ms. Ernst or Mr. Murdock say either, for that matter (not that I doubt his account, I haven't even read his book yet).
I'm done with this discussion. It has become completely asinine. Neither you nor I know for sure what the happened in 1901 or 1908 and we probably never will. You may choose to put your faith in one account over another while I do not. While that may clarify things in your own mind, it does nothing to convince me or anyone else that your purported critical thinking and intuitive skills have identified what "really happened." Your condescending, arrogant, and laughable belief that you have a monopoly on truth has become more than tiresome. The anonymity of the internet forum certainly seems to bring out the worst in people (perhaps myself included).
Jerry Nickle | 5:56 p.m. March 16, 2009
There is only one Pinkerton memo that refers to the Buffalo hospital and that
memo states they were there in the summer of 1901 not Jan 1901.
Zeke | 6:02 p.m. March 16, 2009
"For a 'disintrested Observer" you seem to be wasting a lot of
ink."
At the risk of speaking for someone else:
"Disinterested" in this Context means he isn't taking sides. Yes, it's called "context" and it's important in understanding the English language as well as history. Through context we may understand meaning (or not).
Now I'm really done.
Zeke
At the risk of speaking for someone else:
"Disinterested" in this Context means he isn't taking sides. Yes, it's called "context" and it's important in understanding the English language as well as history. Through context we may understand meaning (or not).
Now I'm really done.
Zeke
Jerry Nickle | 6:06 p.m. March 16, 2009
Every author since Charles Kelly has Butch Sundance and Etta in New York City
the first week of Feb 1901. They were not there. What these authors have done
is just accept what had been written. The first week of Feb 1901 is the key to
this whole mystery, including Etta Place, and I found it.
Anonymous | 7:05 p.m. March 16, 2009
Disintrested Observer
So, do you consider Kerry Ross Boren an "Historian?"
Kerry Ross Boren has authored numerous books and published articles in many periodicals, including the Chicago Tribune, National Geographic, and Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris, France. He is the founder of many associations, including the National Center and Association for Outlaw and Lawman History (NOLA) and Western Historical Research Associates. He was the recipient of the 1976 Bicentennial Award from Cambridge University for his contribution to research. As a motion picture consultant, he has worked on many films, including Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid and Against a Crooked Sky. He assisted Alex Haley with research on his books Roots and Queen.
So, do you consider Kerry Ross Boren an "Historian?"
Kerry Ross Boren has authored numerous books and published articles in many periodicals, including the Chicago Tribune, National Geographic, and Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris, France. He is the founder of many associations, including the National Center and Association for Outlaw and Lawman History (NOLA) and Western Historical Research Associates. He was the recipient of the 1976 Bicentennial Award from Cambridge University for his contribution to research. As a motion picture consultant, he has worked on many films, including Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid and Against a Crooked Sky. He assisted Alex Haley with research on his books Roots and Queen.
Anonymous | 7:35 p.m. March 16, 2009
What Zeke states. "Facts are not based on what you say or choose to
believe or what Ms. Ernst or Mr. Murdock say either, for that matter"
Anon says the following. "Facts Sir are not based on what someone has said or written."
Before you ride into the sunset Mr. Zeke, would you like to compare the above two statements?
I humbly offer a thought. The argument against Mrs. Ernst is not at her knowledge of "history". No one absolutely "knows". I believe the issues here are more in "accuracy of what is written" not knowledge. Like "heading west from St.Paul,MN., then nearing Duluth. The Malta robbers all standing around with empty rifles. Mrs. Ernst saying, the trail was lost at the Mississippi. (she did not say where one river met another) Her first book, saying Harv Logan's three brothers were his cousins. (corrected in her new book) Again giving a wrong publishing date for Lula Betenson's book. There are others.
Zeke, this isn't "putting faith" in anyone, it is pointing out stupid mistakes that should be caught before publishing.
Hopefully our school books are looked at more carefully. I wonder.
Anon says the following. "Facts Sir are not based on what someone has said or written."
Before you ride into the sunset Mr. Zeke, would you like to compare the above two statements?
I humbly offer a thought. The argument against Mrs. Ernst is not at her knowledge of "history". No one absolutely "knows". I believe the issues here are more in "accuracy of what is written" not knowledge. Like "heading west from St.Paul,MN., then nearing Duluth. The Malta robbers all standing around with empty rifles. Mrs. Ernst saying, the trail was lost at the Mississippi. (she did not say where one river met another) Her first book, saying Harv Logan's three brothers were his cousins. (corrected in her new book) Again giving a wrong publishing date for Lula Betenson's book. There are others.
Zeke, this isn't "putting faith" in anyone, it is pointing out stupid mistakes that should be caught before publishing.
Hopefully our school books are looked at more carefully. I wonder.
Horse Creek Cowboy | 7:43 p.m. March 16, 2009
Jerry,
The basic rule is to approach any problem with an open mind. Ignoring those with whom you disagree without at least mentioning their theories in your forth coming book is less than objective. As I see your theory, it is that Sundance and Butch participated in the Malta Robbery. Ergo, every writer who contends otherwise is wrong and has "forged" the sources upon which they rely. For your theory to be correct, Sundance dashes back from Alberta to get married, stays around for several years, deserts his wife, children and step children to participate in various robberies and ride for the WS, proceeds to Texas, New York and Argentina, stays for several years and returned as a loving husband to his wife and children and lived happily ever after.
As has been pointed out, the Pinkertons, like J Edgar Hoover, lovingly collected every rumor. And indeed could not agree with themselves as to the duo's death. They could not even decide as to Harvey Logan's death. All of that needs to be dealt with and not ignored. It is obvious that you have a closed mind. Thus, this old cowboy rides off into the sunset.
The basic rule is to approach any problem with an open mind. Ignoring those with whom you disagree without at least mentioning their theories in your forth coming book is less than objective. As I see your theory, it is that Sundance and Butch participated in the Malta Robbery. Ergo, every writer who contends otherwise is wrong and has "forged" the sources upon which they rely. For your theory to be correct, Sundance dashes back from Alberta to get married, stays around for several years, deserts his wife, children and step children to participate in various robberies and ride for the WS, proceeds to Texas, New York and Argentina, stays for several years and returned as a loving husband to his wife and children and lived happily ever after.
As has been pointed out, the Pinkertons, like J Edgar Hoover, lovingly collected every rumor. And indeed could not agree with themselves as to the duo's death. They could not even decide as to Harvey Logan's death. All of that needs to be dealt with and not ignored. It is obvious that you have a closed mind. Thus, this old cowboy rides off into the sunset.
Disintrested Observer | 7:56 p.m. March 16, 2009
It seems that you place a lot of emphasis in proving that Butch Sundance and
Etta were still in the U.S. in 1901. I assume that is so that you can place
Sundance in Fremont beating up on George Morrell in October of 1901. So then, if
it can be shown that they were in Argentina in 1901 then your whole argument
falls apart. You know, even if you can "prove" that they didn't
go to Argentina until 1902, proving that Sundance and Bill Long are one and the
same will still be impossible unless you can provide a document from Bill
claiming he was Sundance or visa verse.
Disintrested Observer | 8:21 p.m. March 16, 2009
Horse Creek Cowboy: Well said, context, context, context.
Bye to all
Bye to all
Ghosttown Bob | 8:26 p.m. March 16, 2009
Three months and counting.
Anonymous | 7:55 a.m. March 17, 2009
Disintrested Observer
When the foremost authority on outlaw history doesn't agree with the outlaw historian/researcher, Kerry Ross Boren, he goes to extraordinary lengths to expose the flaws in his research, (excerpts form his web site.) Controversial outlaw researcher, Kerry Ross Boren embellished the version of the incident. (Embellished, liar?) Kerry Ross Boren, an outlaw historian, who confected documents, (Confected, forgery?) to support the tale in an effort to prove that Butch and Sundance had not died in Bolivia.
The main purpose is to discredit Boren, by pointing out flaws in his research. D.O., wouldnt you call this playing discredit the historian?
Of course, as you point out, this tactic rarely works, and usually shows the small mindedness of those who engage in it.
When the foremost authority on outlaw history doesn't agree with the outlaw historian/researcher, Kerry Ross Boren, he goes to extraordinary lengths to expose the flaws in his research, (excerpts form his web site.) Controversial outlaw researcher, Kerry Ross Boren embellished the version of the incident. (Embellished, liar?) Kerry Ross Boren, an outlaw historian, who confected documents, (Confected, forgery?) to support the tale in an effort to prove that Butch and Sundance had not died in Bolivia.
The main purpose is to discredit Boren, by pointing out flaws in his research. D.O., wouldnt you call this playing discredit the historian?
Of course, as you point out, this tactic rarely works, and usually shows the small mindedness of those who engage in it.
Another ANM | 8:47 a.m. March 17, 2009
Isn't it astounding, how those that deal in the truth, have no problem with
it.
Then there are those, that truth has no meaning for at all. They have no clue how to deal with it. Sadly for these folks, truth is something to be ignored and overlooked.
By now, we all know Mr. Buck "discredits" any and all, who question his opinions. Let's not "dig up" him up again. But ANM's comments are rather accurate.
AANM
Then there are those, that truth has no meaning for at all. They have no clue how to deal with it. Sadly for these folks, truth is something to be ignored and overlooked.
By now, we all know Mr. Buck "discredits" any and all, who question his opinions. Let's not "dig up" him up again. But ANM's comments are rather accurate.
AANM
Ghosttown Bob | 9:31 a.m. March 17, 2009
Just like bullies on a playground, you seem to have chased off Zeke, Horse Creek
Cowboy, and Disinterested Observer. You should be proud of yourselves for not
being able to conduct a civil conversation.
As for your comments concerning Kerry Ross Boren - any credibility that he had disappeared once he murdered his wife. Have you seen his piece on Etta Place or on Butch Cassidy? An interesting weave of fact and fiction created to decieve.
As for your comments concerning Kerry Ross Boren - any credibility that he had disappeared once he murdered his wife. Have you seen his piece on Etta Place or on Butch Cassidy? An interesting weave of fact and fiction created to decieve.
TM | 9:50 a.m. March 17, 2009
Late to the party...Has the DNA results been posted?
Mr. A Non M | 10:12 a.m. March 17, 2009
"Ghosttown Bob | 8:04 a.m. Feb. 18, 2009"
"I wish the Deseret News would get their facts straight before they publish stories like this one."
Finally recalled where the boss agreed with me. His statement seems to be saying what has been said about the new Sundance book. It must depend on who says it, for it to be all right. Hope you (GTB) don't "chase" away anyone with your honest and correct statement.
Thanks for agreeing with what I have been saying all along.
Mr. A N M
"I wish the Deseret News would get their facts straight before they publish stories like this one."
Finally recalled where the boss agreed with me. His statement seems to be saying what has been said about the new Sundance book. It must depend on who says it, for it to be all right. Hope you (GTB) don't "chase" away anyone with your honest and correct statement.
Thanks for agreeing with what I have been saying all along.
Mr. A N M
Ghosttown Bob | 10:33 a.m. March 17, 2009
TM: No, the DNA results have not been posted. Three months and counting.
Randall | 10:40 a.m. March 17, 2009
Still Chasing Your "Tales"?
Butch & The Kid's Favorite Condiment.
Fry Sauce From The Oakley Polar King.
Butch & The Kid's Favorite Condiment.
Fry Sauce From The Oakley Polar King.
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Seems like reporting a sports score, is just stating what has happened. Should not history be similiar?
It has been enjoyable, let's put it in the barn.
A friend