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Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?
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AC | 4:04 p.m. Feb. 21, 2009
Having read Mrs. Ernst's book about her "Uncle", I had to laugh
at the comment in a previous posting pointing out what was reportedly said on
page 74, of "Uncle". I will tell you, is is not
"reportedly" said, as one of our noted historians likes to report, it
is actually there.
If I may also be allowed to direct your attention to (my favorite) bit of information, which is a statement she makes on page 59. Here she is sharing what she knows about Mr. Harvey Logan (aka Kid Curry) Please allow me to quote, "he had a ranch in Landusky, Montana with some of his cousins. His cousins included Lonnie,Johnny,and Henry Logan."
I do believe she has the names correct. Cousins? Were they not, in fact, his brothers?
In closing, as anyone actually seen a "single shot" Colt .45?
AC
If I may also be allowed to direct your attention to (my favorite) bit of information, which is a statement she makes on page 59. Here she is sharing what she knows about Mr. Harvey Logan (aka Kid Curry) Please allow me to quote, "he had a ranch in Landusky, Montana with some of his cousins. His cousins included Lonnie,Johnny,and Henry Logan."
I do believe she has the names correct. Cousins? Were they not, in fact, his brothers?
In closing, as anyone actually seen a "single shot" Colt .45?
AC
Dang good | 5:29 p.m. Feb. 21, 2009
This is one dang good article.
Thanks Ghosttown Bob, CATS & Jerry Nickles for some dang good comments. You guys are my soul pals.
I also hope to learn more about the Sundance kid and old Butch Cassidy. see ya later 8>)
Thanks Ghosttown Bob, CATS & Jerry Nickles for some dang good comments. You guys are my soul pals.
I also hope to learn more about the Sundance kid and old Butch Cassidy. see ya later 8>)
Comments continue below
I Wonder | 7:01 p.m. Feb. 21, 2009
It seems from what we are seeing here, there are no standards, rules, code of
ethics, or anything that requires these authors of "History" to deal
in and only publish factual, verified information.
Does the line between "History" and fiction even exist anymore? If we are asked to pay our money to purchase a book about "History", should it not contain factual, accurate information? I would hope so.
I W
Does the line between "History" and fiction even exist anymore? If we are asked to pay our money to purchase a book about "History", should it not contain factual, accurate information? I would hope so.
I W
Randall | 11:53 a.m. Feb. 22, 2009
Just Like Butch & The Kid.
I've Spent Most Of My Money Gambling & On Women And Booze.
The Rest Of It I Just Waisted.
I've Spent Most Of My Money Gambling & On Women And Booze.
The Rest Of It I Just Waisted.
Jerry Nickle | 11:22 a.m. Feb. 23, 2009
I Wonder
It is being an accessory to forgery by those who have the responsibility to verify.
It is being an accessory to forgery by those who have the responsibility to verify.
Ghosttown Bob | 2:22 p.m. Feb. 25, 2009
"Anonymous has discovered your army deserter was not Bill Long as you
hoped" Hah! what a laugh. He has found no such thing. He does not know what
he is talking about. Tracking down Florence Parker, or Marshall Parker's
kids have little or nothing to do with finding "Grandpa Bill." Both
Anonymous and Jerry seem to know little of genealogical or family history
research. In any genealogical investigation one always works from the known to
the unknown, not making theories, and then trying to prove them right. using
their kind of logic I can connect myself to both Jesse James, and to the Queen
of England, and my stories will sound just as good.
The people that sound worried are Jerry and Co. What has it been now, two months and still no word on DNA results? Jerry, are you going to share the results, or is the "family" trying to "massage" the results. You do know that with a Y-Chromosome test the match has to be 100%. Anything less will be proof that William Long is not Harry Longabaugh.
The people that sound worried are Jerry and Co. What has it been now, two months and still no word on DNA results? Jerry, are you going to share the results, or is the "family" trying to "massage" the results. You do know that with a Y-Chromosome test the match has to be 100%. Anything less will be proof that William Long is not Harry Longabaugh.
Anonymous | 6:08 a.m. Feb. 26, 2009
Ghosttown Bob, You totally failed the Parker/Long ( Florence Parker, or Marshall
Parker's kids) genealogical test, it took you a week to find the answer to
a simple family history research question, that any genealogical investigator
should have known, before stating that he knows with certainty that the
individual hes researching (William Long) is who he claims he was. Good
genealogical or family history research includes all family members. Given
another week, you might discover what Julia, William and Minnie Longs mothers
maiden name was. In any genealogical investigation one always works from the
known to find the unknown.
What does William Long of Fayette County, Pennsylvania have to do with finding "Grandpa Bill?" Absolutely Nothing. Based on hard evidence, we the public will make the final decision on whether William Henry Long was Harry Longabaugh. The burden lies solely with Mr. Nickle providing substantial and convincing evidence.
Bob, if I were you, Id never publish anything about western outlaws, I dont think you can handle the criticism.
What does William Long of Fayette County, Pennsylvania have to do with finding "Grandpa Bill?" Absolutely Nothing. Based on hard evidence, we the public will make the final decision on whether William Henry Long was Harry Longabaugh. The burden lies solely with Mr. Nickle providing substantial and convincing evidence.
Bob, if I were you, Id never publish anything about western outlaws, I dont think you can handle the criticism.
Jerry Nickle | 8:52 a.m. Feb. 26, 2009
FREE FREE FREE FREE
THE PINKERTON FILES.
As a public service I will FAX the relevant twenty Pinkerton memos and reports to any interested parties. These documents include all the Pinkerton references used by the Butch Cassidy historians since Charles Kelly and James Horan. You will see how the authors of the last few years have massaged and misused these reports. You will get the two separate memos showing Butch was in Utah in Feb 1909 and March 1909 after the killing of the Aramayo payroll robbers at San Vicente on Nov 6, 1908.
Contact me from my web site. Do a search for Jerry Nickle Sundance Kid.
THE PINKERTON FILES.
As a public service I will FAX the relevant twenty Pinkerton memos and reports to any interested parties. These documents include all the Pinkerton references used by the Butch Cassidy historians since Charles Kelly and James Horan. You will see how the authors of the last few years have massaged and misused these reports. You will get the two separate memos showing Butch was in Utah in Feb 1909 and March 1909 after the killing of the Aramayo payroll robbers at San Vicente on Nov 6, 1908.
Contact me from my web site. Do a search for Jerry Nickle Sundance Kid.
Ghosttown Bob | 10:04 a.m. Feb. 26, 2009
Anonymous, You are mistaken. Did you not read my reply on Feb 20th at 7:53am? I
said quote: I don't know what Florence has to do with all of this."
This was posted the very next time I was on the board, which was the morning
after your post. Yes, I passed your silly little test. I, for one do not spend
all of my spare time on this comment board like some people apparently do. By
the way, did you ever find Julia Ann Long Parker's obituary? It has been
almost a week now and you have not found it. By your own logic you have failed
the "genealogical test" of your own making. Oh, by the way did you
know that, according to family, Julia's, William's, and Minnie's
mothers middle name was Ann, (Wow! William Long of Wayne County mother's
name was Ann!!), my, what a coincidence, or did you chose not to reveal that
because it helps destroy your theory>
Ghosttown Bob | 10:29 a.m. Feb. 26, 2009
Anonymous: Now about your other statements in your 6:08 am post - The public
does not make the final decision on whether William Henry Long was Harry
Longabaugh or not. Either the two are the same, or they are not. DNA testing can
prove that, otherwise Jerry would not have gone to the trouble or expense for
the test. Lacking any DNA proof, then everything else is based on documentation
with credible sources. "family tradition", "secret family
files," or speculation just does not cut it. Manipulating sources for your
own ends does not cut it. Too much of this has been going on, on all sides if
this Butch and Sundance thing for years, hence Jerry's willingness to share
his copies of the Pinkerton files. I applaud him for it.
Anonymous | 11:34 a.m. Feb. 26, 2009
Ghosttown Bob,
I have newspaper articles, Obituaries, Death certificates. Julia, William and Minnies mothers name was Mary Jane -------. Born in Fayette County, Pennsylvania. Julia Ann Long was born in Allegheny County, Pennsylvania. Julia Ann Long Parkers husband was Henry S. Parker he was born in Keene, Cheshire, New Hampshire, he was wagon master at Camp Carlin. Julia Ann Long Parker died 25 Dec 1936. One of Julias grandsons was named after her brother William Long. Much, Much, More Ive done the research, what have you done Bob, Little Buck.
I have newspaper articles, Obituaries, Death certificates. Julia, William and Minnies mothers name was Mary Jane -------. Born in Fayette County, Pennsylvania. Julia Ann Long was born in Allegheny County, Pennsylvania. Julia Ann Long Parkers husband was Henry S. Parker he was born in Keene, Cheshire, New Hampshire, he was wagon master at Camp Carlin. Julia Ann Long Parker died 25 Dec 1936. One of Julias grandsons was named after her brother William Long. Much, Much, More Ive done the research, what have you done Bob, Little Buck.
Curious.... | 11:56 a.m. Feb. 26, 2009
This question is for Gaylen Robinson, What was Harry's mother's
name....I am related on the step side and just have a few questions after
hearing little bits and pieces of the story all my life.
AC | 12:31 p.m. Feb. 26, 2009
Little Buck.
Does that not imply there is a "Big Buck"?
It was reportedly said, BB has, shall we say. folded.
AC
Does that not imply there is a "Big Buck"?
It was reportedly said, BB has, shall we say. folded.
AC
Double Eagle | 1:04 p.m. Feb. 26, 2009
Ghosttown Bob,
Obviously youre in Dan Bucks camp, perhaps Little Buck fits, youd have us believe that Butch and Sundance both died in South America without any DNA. Whats the difference, do you not hold Dan Buck to the same proof positive, as you insist, Jerry Nickle must provide.
Obviously youre in Dan Bucks camp, perhaps Little Buck fits, youd have us believe that Butch and Sundance both died in South America without any DNA. Whats the difference, do you not hold Dan Buck to the same proof positive, as you insist, Jerry Nickle must provide.
AC | 1:25 p.m. Feb. 26, 2009
"do you not hold Dan Buck to the same proof positive, as you insist, Jerry
Nickle must provide."
With all due respect DE, when was dbuck ever held resposible for anything he said/wrote? Come on! On second thought though, he does claim he was successful. We don't want to hear that song again.
AC
With all due respect DE, when was dbuck ever held resposible for anything he said/wrote? Come on! On second thought though, he does claim he was successful. We don't want to hear that song again.
AC
Just Lookin | 1:38 p.m. Feb. 26, 2009
Let me get this straight.
We want to hold Mr. Buck resposible for:
1 Finding Mr. Zimmer
2 His "reported" information by a Parker family member.
3 The accuracy of his (phone call??) with, was it Mrs. Charter? To be honest he changed that story more than a diaper, so I am not real sure, who he claims he talked with.
4 What he never said about Mrs. Betenson?
JL
We want to hold Mr. Buck resposible for:
1 Finding Mr. Zimmer
2 His "reported" information by a Parker family member.
3 The accuracy of his (phone call??) with, was it Mrs. Charter? To be honest he changed that story more than a diaper, so I am not real sure, who he claims he talked with.
4 What he never said about Mrs. Betenson?
JL
Ghosttown Bob | 3:04 p.m. Feb. 26, 2009
Jerry: Sure I would like a copy of the above mentioned Pinkerton memos, etc. I
would like to compare them to my little stack. If I have anything different than
you, I will be glad to share them with you.
My only problem, I was on your site, but I am still unsure on how to contact you. Do I just send and email to jerrynickle@....(yourwebsite)?
My only problem, I was on your site, but I am still unsure on how to contact you. Do I just send and email to jerrynickle@....(yourwebsite)?
Jerry Nickle | 5:54 p.m. Feb. 26, 2009
Bob
Do you have the hand written memo dated April 3, 1902?
Do you have the hand written memo dated April 3, 1902?
Horse Creek Cowboy | 8:48 a.m. Feb. 27, 2009
Some irresistable compulsion made me come back and review all of the comments.
They have slowly degenerated into unwarranted attacks rather than a sharing of
information. Many years ago, I found that one may very often learn more by
sharing information. The attacks on Dan are unwarranted. Over the past ten
years or so, I found that he was always willing to share and has not, at least
with me, ever claimed to have an exclusive path to truth. The claim that anyone
would "fake" evidence is outrageous and reflects more on the one
making such allegations than on Dan.
Bob Jayne | 10:55 a.m. Feb. 27, 2009
Just finished the new book by Harv Murdock, THE EDUCATED OUTLAW. Harv is the
Grandson of Elzy Lay. The book is not only full of information, but Mr.
Murdock's style of writing is unique, compared to some of the other history
writers. Mr. Murdock shares what he knows. Doesn't try to tell us how
much he knows. A very enjoyable, down to earth book. Only complaint: it ended
too quickly.
Bob Jayne
Bob Jayne
Anonymous | 12:11 p.m. Feb. 27, 2009
The attacks on Dan are unwarranted.
Horse C C has described what makes for a good horse race. A difference of opinion.
The track record of your Mr. Buck is very well known HCC. His way of dealing with those who do not buy his theory! We gain nothing by repeating that here. Get a grip HorseCC. Let us deal in reality. You know, things like facts. If you aren't aware of (or choose to ignore) Mr. Buck's many, many documented attacks (his very questionable, reported facts??) good luck in the third grade.
Horse C C has described what makes for a good horse race. A difference of opinion.
The track record of your Mr. Buck is very well known HCC. His way of dealing with those who do not buy his theory! We gain nothing by repeating that here. Get a grip HorseCC. Let us deal in reality. You know, things like facts. If you aren't aware of (or choose to ignore) Mr. Buck's many, many documented attacks (his very questionable, reported facts??) good luck in the third grade.
Jerry Nickle | 12:48 p.m. Feb. 27, 2009
Horse Creek Cowboy
In Bucks book on 37 he states Sundance and Etta visited the hospital in Buffalo New York before Feb 1, 1901. For his documentation he uses a Pinkerton memo dated April 3, 1902. I have that Pinkerton memo and it states they visited the hospital in Buffalo in the summer of 1901. Why did he misquote that memo?
The Pinkerton history #1497 of Butch Cassidy states the last part of May 1901 Butch was near Wilcox Arizona on his way to Globe Arizona to get his mail.
In 1907 William Pinkerton said Butch and Sundance were at the Wagner train robbery on July 3, 1901. On page 49 in Bucks book he states there is a document showing they were in Argentina on that very day. The Pinkerton history #1961 for Harry Longabaugh states he was in Price and Vernal Utah on his way to Baggs Wyoming in July 1901.
In Bucks book on 37 he states Sundance and Etta visited the hospital in Buffalo New York before Feb 1, 1901. For his documentation he uses a Pinkerton memo dated April 3, 1902. I have that Pinkerton memo and it states they visited the hospital in Buffalo in the summer of 1901. Why did he misquote that memo?
The Pinkerton history #1497 of Butch Cassidy states the last part of May 1901 Butch was near Wilcox Arizona on his way to Globe Arizona to get his mail.
In 1907 William Pinkerton said Butch and Sundance were at the Wagner train robbery on July 3, 1901. On page 49 in Bucks book he states there is a document showing they were in Argentina on that very day. The Pinkerton history #1961 for Harry Longabaugh states he was in Price and Vernal Utah on his way to Baggs Wyoming in July 1901.
Jerry Nickle | 12:49 p.m. Feb. 27, 2009
Dan Buck has discovered three documents that show Butch and Sundance were in Argentina in 1901. One of these documents was for a purchase of some horses on June 11, 1901. There is also a document showing they registered for a cattle brand In October 1901. Ernst 137. Both of these documents Buck referred as authentic in the other blog.
They cannot be in the USA and Argentina at the same time.
I charge these Argentine documents used by Dan Buck are forgeries. He has the responsibility to verify all document and this failure has destroyed his credibility.
If I am wrong please show me where.
Jerry Nickle | 1:06 p.m. Feb. 27, 2009
Horse Creek Cowboy.
You are obviously familiar with this subject so I would like your opinion on another Argentine document.
Buck has referred to a newly discovered article that was published April 17, 1912, in the Buenos Aires Standard, as authentic. You can read this article in Ernsts new book pages 188-198.
I believe this is another forgery, which Buck has called authentic. I cannot see how anyone would not call this document a forgery.
Please read it and lets discuss this document here and hope you can show me where I am wrong.
You are obviously familiar with this subject so I would like your opinion on another Argentine document.
Buck has referred to a newly discovered article that was published April 17, 1912, in the Buenos Aires Standard, as authentic. You can read this article in Ernsts new book pages 188-198.
I believe this is another forgery, which Buck has called authentic. I cannot see how anyone would not call this document a forgery.
Please read it and lets discuss this document here and hope you can show me where I am wrong.
Jerry Nickle | 2:03 p.m. Feb. 27, 2009
Curious
Are you a descendant of Luzernia Allred and Silas Morrell?
Are you a descendant of Luzernia Allred and Silas Morrell?
Jerry Nickle | 2:43 p.m. Feb. 27, 2009
Yes I did read THE EDUCATED OULLAW by Harvey Murdock. On page 3 Murdock tells the story of his meeting and spending some time with Lula Bentenson. Murdock stated She was in her nineties and sharp as a tack.
In Robert Redfords book THE OUTLAW TRAIL he tells of meeting and spending some time with ninety four year old Lula. He found her to spry, witty strong-willed, with a gentle feminine sprit that warmed you. Redford further states he was struck by her beauty even at this age. She is tall and elegant, a proud person who enjoys living And her mind is thirty years or younger.
Dan Buck has never met Lula and he said she had a deteriorated mind. That is absolutely outrages and he should make a public apology to the family
AC | 3:45 p.m. Feb. 27, 2009
"Dan Buck has never met Lula and he said she had a deteriorated mind. That
is absolutely outrages and he should make a public apology to the
family"
Mr. Buck will unearth Robin Hood before he is man enough to stand up and be accountable (let alone offer his apology) for what he has said about many others, especially Lula Parker Betenson. I understand he even denied, what he actuall said in a one on one at a meeting a few years ago. And you want an apology? Good luck.
AC
Mr. Buck will unearth Robin Hood before he is man enough to stand up and be accountable (let alone offer his apology) for what he has said about many others, especially Lula Parker Betenson. I understand he even denied, what he actuall said in a one on one at a meeting a few years ago. And you want an apology? Good luck.
AC
Jerry Nickle | 4:00 p.m. Feb. 27, 2009
Horse Creek Cowboy
You have seen on this blog how little Buck tried to discredit me with a fake document.
You have seen on this blog how little Buck tried to discredit me with a fake document.
Horse Creek Cowboy | 8:43 a.m. Feb. 28, 2009
Jerry:
The point is that even if we disagree with someone, we may remain civil and not engage in name calling. I have disagreed with Dan on some points, but we have remained civil. Name calling only begets more name calling. One does not prove something, by disproving someone else.
History should be written from primary sources, not secondary sources. No one currently alive can prove who was present at the various robberies here or in South America. We can only disprove and the disproof must rely on secondary sources of which the Pinkerton files were rife. Buck and Meadows have done all of us a great service by focusing on primary documents. Quite frankly, I am surprized that Dan would even be willing to engage in discussion when he is belittled, made fun of and assailed.
As for me, I am still looking for Harvey Logan. There is only one thing I am sure of, he was not Tap Duncan.
The point is that even if we disagree with someone, we may remain civil and not engage in name calling. I have disagreed with Dan on some points, but we have remained civil. Name calling only begets more name calling. One does not prove something, by disproving someone else.
History should be written from primary sources, not secondary sources. No one currently alive can prove who was present at the various robberies here or in South America. We can only disprove and the disproof must rely on secondary sources of which the Pinkerton files were rife. Buck and Meadows have done all of us a great service by focusing on primary documents. Quite frankly, I am surprized that Dan would even be willing to engage in discussion when he is belittled, made fun of and assailed.
As for me, I am still looking for Harvey Logan. There is only one thing I am sure of, he was not Tap Duncan.
AC | 10:20 a.m. Feb. 28, 2009
"Name calling only begets more name calling. ((One does not prove
something, by disproving someone else.))"-----No truer words were ever
spoken! An extremely clear picture of what Buck has been trying to do for a
number of years. Well said HCC. A perfect example to back your comments, his
stating Mrs. Betenson's mind was corroded due to her age. Shall we say,
that was 100% incorrect. But what she said, Buck doesn't like and you know
what that leads to!
"Buck and Meadows have done all of us a great service by focusing on primary documents"-------- Hmmmm. Such as what Mr. Parker's niece "reportedly" said. Or the "accuracy" of his "phone call" to, was it Mrs. Charter. Or his writing to Dora Flack, to see if Dora thought Lula was a liar. There are more, many more. Up to now, most cowboys I have known were rather serious fellows.
Bottom line HCC, Buck will do and say anything to make himself look right.
AC
"Buck and Meadows have done all of us a great service by focusing on primary documents"-------- Hmmmm. Such as what Mr. Parker's niece "reportedly" said. Or the "accuracy" of his "phone call" to, was it Mrs. Charter. Or his writing to Dora Flack, to see if Dora thought Lula was a liar. There are more, many more. Up to now, most cowboys I have known were rather serious fellows.
Bottom line HCC, Buck will do and say anything to make himself look right.
AC
Retired Judge | 11:39 a.m. Feb. 28, 2009
I am not sure, that pointing out the improper actions of an individual, when
factual, can be called "attacking". Seems to me the comments do not
have a political twist, just an attempt to see some fairness done. Maybe
wishful thinking, hopefully it is not too late to try.
Wasn't there a, "do unto others as you would have others do unto you" or words similiar? Sounds better than "attack" any day.
RJ
Wasn't there a, "do unto others as you would have others do unto you" or words similiar? Sounds better than "attack" any day.
RJ
Randall | 11:59 a.m. Feb. 28, 2009
Let's All Meet At The Oakley Polar King This July 4th Rodeo and Wait For
The Next Reported Sighting.
Gaylen Robison | 12:10 p.m. Feb. 28, 2009
To Curious
According to a pedigree chart, Harry Alonzo Longabaugh's mother's name is Annie G. Place. She was born 27 Sept. 1828. She died 18 May, 1887.
Hope this helps you friend.
According to a pedigree chart, Harry Alonzo Longabaugh's mother's name is Annie G. Place. She was born 27 Sept. 1828. She died 18 May, 1887.
Hope this helps you friend.
Jerry Nickle | 12:11 p.m. Feb. 28, 2009
Horse Creek Cowboy
I hope we can engage in a civil discussion as you do. I recognize Dan Bucks contributions
Those three 1901 Argintina documents can be shown as being faked by using Charlie Siringo the best primary source there is. After the Tipton robbery on Aug 29, 1900 the Pinkerton detective agency assigned detective Charles Siringo to the case. He was ordered to go to Alma New Mexico where Butch had spent the previous winter believing Butch might have returned there. He got a tip that two of the robbers, Ben Killpatrick and Kid Curry, went through Grand Junction Colorado so he went there and followed their trail. South of Grand Junction Siringo met a rancher who recognized a photograph of Kid Curry At the Carlisle ranch near Monticelo Utah the ranch manager told Siringo the two outlaws had passed through saying they were going to where the climate fit their cloths. The manager said he believed they meant Arizona or New Mexico as the cloths they were wearing were to light for the winter. (Siringo 339-342)
I hope we can engage in a civil discussion as you do. I recognize Dan Bucks contributions
Those three 1901 Argintina documents can be shown as being faked by using Charlie Siringo the best primary source there is. After the Tipton robbery on Aug 29, 1900 the Pinkerton detective agency assigned detective Charles Siringo to the case. He was ordered to go to Alma New Mexico where Butch had spent the previous winter believing Butch might have returned there. He got a tip that two of the robbers, Ben Killpatrick and Kid Curry, went through Grand Junction Colorado so he went there and followed their trail. South of Grand Junction Siringo met a rancher who recognized a photograph of Kid Curry At the Carlisle ranch near Monticelo Utah the ranch manager told Siringo the two outlaws had passed through saying they were going to where the climate fit their cloths. The manager said he believed they meant Arizona or New Mexico as the cloths they were wearing were to light for the winter. (Siringo 339-342)
Jerry Nickle | 12:19 p.m. Feb. 28, 2009
Following the outlaws trail Siringo lost it in the deep snow near Bluff City
Utah. (Siringo 346) This was winter so it had to have been November or December
1900. Because of the snow Siringo then went back north to Hanksville where he
received orders to go to Circleville Utah Where Butchs family lived to see what
he could discover there. On his way to Circleville he had to take another detour
because of snow. Siringo 348. From Circleville he was ordered to go to Alma New
Mexico. When he arrived in Alma he discovered Butch was not there so Siringo
left and was soon in Frisco New Mexico. In
Jerry Nickle | 12:20 p.m. Feb. 28, 2009
Frisco Siringo discovered Butch and eight other outlaws were then camped forty
miles southwest of Frisco where Butch had established a Robbers Roost or
rendezvous. This had to have been Feb or March 1901. When spring came Butch
broke camp and was seen near Wilcox Arizona in May 1901 by Pinkerton informant
Blake Graham who knew Butch well.
Those three 1901 Argintina document have been faked because Butch was not Argintina.
I not accusing Dan Buck of being the guilty party but he has the responsibility to authenticate documents and he failed here.
Those three 1901 Argintina document have been faked because Butch was not Argintina.
I not accusing Dan Buck of being the guilty party but he has the responsibility to authenticate documents and he failed here.
Horse Creek Cowboy | 3:22 p.m. Feb. 28, 2009
Jerry,
We all need to be careful in relying on Charlie. He wrote from memory and was known, perhaps, to change things to fit the story. Basicly, as I see it, The argument is that because he was in the US in the spring, he could not have been in Argentina. But the same can be taken the other way, because, he was busy applying in April for four square leagues of property at the land office, he could not have been in the US. We simply do not know. In the museum in Chubut is a receipt signed by Santiago Ryan. I am trying to get the date. Incidently, various newspaper reports are notorious for inaccuacy. The San Francisco Call reported, November 08, 1901, that Sundannce going under the name of J. W. Rose, were arrested in St. Louis. The Ogden Standard reported, Feb. 21, 1910, that Butch was in Argentina.
"Forgery" is a strong word and I am glad you are receding from saying Dan did it.
We all need to be careful in relying on Charlie. He wrote from memory and was known, perhaps, to change things to fit the story. Basicly, as I see it, The argument is that because he was in the US in the spring, he could not have been in Argentina. But the same can be taken the other way, because, he was busy applying in April for four square leagues of property at the land office, he could not have been in the US. We simply do not know. In the museum in Chubut is a receipt signed by Santiago Ryan. I am trying to get the date. Incidently, various newspaper reports are notorious for inaccuacy. The San Francisco Call reported, November 08, 1901, that Sundannce going under the name of J. W. Rose, were arrested in St. Louis. The Ogden Standard reported, Feb. 21, 1910, that Butch was in Argentina.
"Forgery" is a strong word and I am glad you are receding from saying Dan did it.
Jerry Nickle | 6:41 p.m. Feb. 28, 2009
HCC
You are very well informed and I thank you for discussing this with me.
Yes the argument is 1901. Butch was not in Argentina in April 1901 applying for land. He was there applying for land in April 1902. There is absolutely no Pinkerton documentation at all Butch was in Argentina in 1901 and the three 1901 Argentina documents showing he was there I believe are fakes. I am not accusing Dan Buck of creating these fakes documents, but I would not be surprised if Dan Bucks friend Tito Juarez was involved.
You are very well informed and I thank you for discussing this with me.
Yes the argument is 1901. Butch was not in Argentina in April 1901 applying for land. He was there applying for land in April 1902. There is absolutely no Pinkerton documentation at all Butch was in Argentina in 1901 and the three 1901 Argentina documents showing he was there I believe are fakes. I am not accusing Dan Buck of creating these fakes documents, but I would not be surprised if Dan Bucks friend Tito Juarez was involved.
Jerry Nickle | 7:13 p.m. Feb. 28, 2009
HCC
Is Michael Bell a friend of Dan Bucks. I would like to discuss his discovery too.
Is Michael Bell a friend of Dan Bucks. I would like to discuss his discovery too.
Ghosttown Bob | 9:40 p.m. Feb. 28, 2009
I have been offline for a while, it seems my computer crashed right in the
middle of a reply to Anonymous. It looks like I have missed a lot. Jerry: What
fake document do you refer to? Are you accusing me or Dan Buck? I have not used
any fake documents.
Horse Creek Cowboy | 9:41 p.m. Feb. 28, 2009
Randall,
I like your idea. We are all taking ourselves too seriously. But do you have something against the Diner? Can you stay on for eight seconds? I am afraid that with age, I probably can't.
In all seriousness, however, I have other commitments for the week. How do you look in pink for the 3rd?
I like your idea. We are all taking ourselves too seriously. But do you have something against the Diner? Can you stay on for eight seconds? I am afraid that with age, I probably can't.
In all seriousness, however, I have other commitments for the week. How do you look in pink for the 3rd?
Ghosttown Bob | 9:52 p.m. Feb. 28, 2009
Anonymous: I also have newspaper articles, Obituaries, and Death certificates.
Julia, William and Minnies mothers name was Mary Jane according census; Mary Ann
Stafford according to family sources. Born in either Fayette County, or
Alleghany Co. Pennsylvania. Julia Ann Long was born in Allegheny County,
Pennsylvania. Julia Ann Long Parkers husband was Henry S. Parker he was born in
Keene, Cheshire, New Hampshire, he was wagon master at Camp Carlin. Julia Ann
Long Parker died 25 Dec 1936. One of Julias grandsons was named after her
brother William Long. I also have Much, Much, More I have done the research,
what you are doing is trying to play catchup. You were completely unaware of
this family before I mentioned it. You will always be one step behind.
So what was Camp Carlin? Do you know? If William Long worked with his brother-in-law hauling freight, where would they have gone?
So what was Camp Carlin? Do you know? If William Long worked with his brother-in-law hauling freight, where would they have gone?
Ghosttown Bob | 10:12 p.m. Feb. 28, 2009
So has anyone other than Jerry read Donna Ernst's revision of her book? In
her new section on Etta Place, she has Etta returning to New York in July of
1905 on the ship Seguranca. Signing the ship passenger list as Mrs. E. Place,
complete with a copy of the actual list (page 156). H'mmm It seems she
takes credit for this discovery, which is funny, since I was the one who gave
her the tip on this. She also. She also tries to link Etta to an Ethel Matthews
in Texas (page 176), I have corresponded with the person that did this research
for her and she said that it came to a dead end. Again she gives no credit to
the person doing the research. Too bad, Donna Ernst is wrong on both accounts.
If she had shown a little more interest, I could have shown her just when and
where both Sundance and Etta returned to the US and what may have become of
Etta.
Anonymous | 10:17 p.m. Feb. 28, 2009
Ghost town Bob
You lost give it a break
You lost give it a break
Anonymous | 8:46 a.m. March 1, 2009
Ghosttown Bob,
Thats very interesting, in every census, it clearly shows Mary J. Long or Mary Jane Long, on Julia Parkers death certificate it shows Mary Jane Stafford, at least one Parker family researcher agrees her name was Mary Jane Stafford. Yet you chose to suggest that according to family sources, her name was Mary Ann Stafford, a name, that conveniently fits your theory. Henry Sylvan Parker was a Frontier Contemporary of Buffalo Bill and was Located at Camp Carlin for Years. Camp Carlin was established in September 1867, as a supply depot between Fort D. A. Russell and the city of Cheyenne. Named after Capt. Elias B. Carling, Asst Quartermaster. Officially designated as Cheyenne Depot. The camp was abandoned in 1887, dismantled in 1890.
Bob, I first started researching Mr. Nickels claim in 2004. William Long, of Fort A. D. Russell, was logically one of the first William Long I researched. Yes, I did revisit William Long after you made your claim, and there is nothing that I have found that would support your theory. Would you like to know what happened to Minnie Long? You always seem to be a week behind on your responses.
Thats very interesting, in every census, it clearly shows Mary J. Long or Mary Jane Long, on Julia Parkers death certificate it shows Mary Jane Stafford, at least one Parker family researcher agrees her name was Mary Jane Stafford. Yet you chose to suggest that according to family sources, her name was Mary Ann Stafford, a name, that conveniently fits your theory. Henry Sylvan Parker was a Frontier Contemporary of Buffalo Bill and was Located at Camp Carlin for Years. Camp Carlin was established in September 1867, as a supply depot between Fort D. A. Russell and the city of Cheyenne. Named after Capt. Elias B. Carling, Asst Quartermaster. Officially designated as Cheyenne Depot. The camp was abandoned in 1887, dismantled in 1890.
Bob, I first started researching Mr. Nickels claim in 2004. William Long, of Fort A. D. Russell, was logically one of the first William Long I researched. Yes, I did revisit William Long after you made your claim, and there is nothing that I have found that would support your theory. Would you like to know what happened to Minnie Long? You always seem to be a week behind on your responses.
Jerry Nickle | 10:38 a.m. March 1, 2009
Donna Ernst
In your book on page 132 you state on Feb 4, 1901 Butch purchased a beautiful gold watch for Etta for $40.10. Your source is an Email from Dan Buck. There is no documentation for this purchase. It never happened. You should not assume all of Dan Bucks information is factual.
Dan
If there is documentation for this purchase produce it for pier review.
In your book on page 132 you state on Feb 4, 1901 Butch purchased a beautiful gold watch for Etta for $40.10. Your source is an Email from Dan Buck. There is no documentation for this purchase. It never happened. You should not assume all of Dan Bucks information is factual.
Dan
If there is documentation for this purchase produce it for pier review.
Horse Creek Cowboy | 12:42 p.m. March 1, 2009
Camp Carlin was the supply station for the various forts to the north including
Forts Fetterman and Laramie. It was located about twenty miles south of Horse
Creek.
Anonymous | 4:26 p.m. March 1, 2009
"You should not assume all of Dan Bucks information is factual."
Now that is trully a shock! Why would a comment like that be made?
Now that is trully a shock! Why would a comment like that be made?
Jerry Nickle | 5:26 p.m. March 1, 2009
Ghost Town Bob
Congratulations.
I believe you have found the only documentation for Etta Place other than what the Pinkerton files refer to. That is a great find and you deserve credit for it
Thanks for sharing it.
Jerry Nickle
Congratulations.
I believe you have found the only documentation for Etta Place other than what the Pinkerton files refer to. That is a great find and you deserve credit for it
Thanks for sharing it.
Jerry Nickle
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Among a "few" noted errors, the following I thought was the most note worthy and shall we say, humerous. Reportedly on page 74, there are numerous comments regarding his abilities and speed with a gun. It reportedly says "HE USED A SINGLE SHOT COLT 45 ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY," Not being a gun expert, even I detect something wrong with the above statement regarding Sundance's gun of choice. Using a "single shot" weapon, would seem to me to have put the "Kid" at somewhat of a disadvantage.
I am sure some of you are more knowledgeable about this than I and would care to comment.