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Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?
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Horse Creek Cowboy | 2:27 p.m. July 21, 2009
Subject: Loose ends.
1. Pinkertons had no way of knowing or suspecting that Longabaugh or Ethel were in Buffalo except through the letters to Harry's family. Nor would they know to check with photo studio, except by learning of the photo in the opening of the mail. If they were to purchase a copy from Bliss they certainly did not need paste board frame. Ergo, they stole it, but the frame is not something that would be publicly bandied about.
2. Except for the one note indicating the '01 date, nothing else indicates that the duo were in Buffalo in '01. My memory (without double checking notes) is that the three arrived in Chubut late in the year. Some doubt may exist as to the date they arrived. Edward VII did not decide the boundary between Chile and Argentina in the Cholila Valley until November of '02. Local lore from the 1930's had "Boots" and Sr. y Sra. Place arriving in '01.
1. Pinkertons had no way of knowing or suspecting that Longabaugh or Ethel were in Buffalo except through the letters to Harry's family. Nor would they know to check with photo studio, except by learning of the photo in the opening of the mail. If they were to purchase a copy from Bliss they certainly did not need paste board frame. Ergo, they stole it, but the frame is not something that would be publicly bandied about.
2. Except for the one note indicating the '01 date, nothing else indicates that the duo were in Buffalo in '01. My memory (without double checking notes) is that the three arrived in Chubut late in the year. Some doubt may exist as to the date they arrived. Edward VII did not decide the boundary between Chile and Argentina in the Cholila Valley until November of '02. Local lore from the 1930's had "Boots" and Sr. y Sra. Place arriving in '01.
Butch | 3:20 p.m. July 21, 2009
HCC:
I think you nailed the post April 3, 1902 Dimaio Notebook page perfectly. Suppose, for the sake of discussion, we begin with the proposidtion that Longabaugh and Ethel were not in Buffalo for the Bliss Photo in 1901. Given that, I'd like to float the following for review and discussion:
1.) Gooldy says that Gillespie received the Bliss/DeYoung photo a few months after Gillespie received a letter from Harry from Wolcott. If so, I put receipt of the photo somewhere around March, 1901 --give or take.
2.) So far as we know from the Pinkerton Documents Harry and Ethel were in New York approximately Feb 1 -Feb 20, 1901, went to SA, and did not return until April 3, 1902. If so, the only opportunity to be in Buffalo in time to get Gillespie a photo by March, 1901, was before arrival in NY,or December, 1900 or January, 1901. We have Longabaugh in Fort Worth, November, 1900.
3.) If the photo was taken in Buffalo, December, 1900 or January, 1901, the most reasonable conclusion is that the negative was moved to DeYoung's in NY by approximately Feb. 1, 1901.
Continued ....
I think you nailed the post April 3, 1902 Dimaio Notebook page perfectly. Suppose, for the sake of discussion, we begin with the proposidtion that Longabaugh and Ethel were not in Buffalo for the Bliss Photo in 1901. Given that, I'd like to float the following for review and discussion:
1.) Gooldy says that Gillespie received the Bliss/DeYoung photo a few months after Gillespie received a letter from Harry from Wolcott. If so, I put receipt of the photo somewhere around March, 1901 --give or take.
2.) So far as we know from the Pinkerton Documents Harry and Ethel were in New York approximately Feb 1 -Feb 20, 1901, went to SA, and did not return until April 3, 1902. If so, the only opportunity to be in Buffalo in time to get Gillespie a photo by March, 1901, was before arrival in NY,or December, 1900 or January, 1901. We have Longabaugh in Fort Worth, November, 1900.
3.) If the photo was taken in Buffalo, December, 1900 or January, 1901, the most reasonable conclusion is that the negative was moved to DeYoung's in NY by approximately Feb. 1, 1901.
Continued ....
Comments continue below
Butch | 3:43 p.m. July 21, 2009
As you blogged previously, it isn't credible that Longabaugh and Ethel
would transport the negative to SA and then bring it back to DeYoungs in April,
1902. Therefore, I deduce that if Longabaugh and Ethel transported the negative
from Buffalo to NYC, they did so by their arrival on or about February 1, 1901.
If so, the negative could have been discovered by the Pinkertons as they
followed up on the April 3, 1902 mail cover on Samanna, in plenty of time for
Robert Pinkerton's July 29, 1902 memo to say, incorrectly, that the photo
had been taken at DeYoungs.
I'd appreciate a critique from you on this line of thought.
Final item. Reading Ms. Meadows book, and working from a friend's translation of Gavirati, I come up with an arrival date in Chubut approximately April/May 1901. I realize you blogged from memory. When you get the chance, would you look at your notes and let me know if the arrival was, in your opinion, April/May or late 1901?
Thanks. I always look forward to your blogs, and super find on the Bliss photo. We're all in your debt.
I'd appreciate a critique from you on this line of thought.
Final item. Reading Ms. Meadows book, and working from a friend's translation of Gavirati, I come up with an arrival date in Chubut approximately April/May 1901. I realize you blogged from memory. When you get the chance, would you look at your notes and let me know if the arrival was, in your opinion, April/May or late 1901?
Thanks. I always look forward to your blogs, and super find on the Bliss photo. We're all in your debt.
GUE | 3:53 p.m. July 21, 2009
Butch: Yes, I think that's a strong approach, particularly given all the
detailed information floating around. Frankly, I'm having trouble keeping
up from time to time. But very informative!
HCC:Have you ever come across something published by Frank DiMaio in book form, a la Charlie Siringo?
Question: I once contacted Pat Schroeder, President and CEO of the Association of American Publishers (AAP)regarding her theories about Butch. I believe she may have once been a blogger here. She was kind enough to respond and offered only one enigmatic comment, claiming that Butch was in Alaska and made his way back down to the states through Vancouver in the early part of the century. At one point, she claimed to have pertinent information regarding Butch's life after SA. I think there was a veiled reference to a murder in there as well. Her email is currently out of commission. Does anyone know about her theories? Has she published any of them?
HCC:Have you ever come across something published by Frank DiMaio in book form, a la Charlie Siringo?
Question: I once contacted Pat Schroeder, President and CEO of the Association of American Publishers (AAP)regarding her theories about Butch. I believe she may have once been a blogger here. She was kind enough to respond and offered only one enigmatic comment, claiming that Butch was in Alaska and made his way back down to the states through Vancouver in the early part of the century. At one point, she claimed to have pertinent information regarding Butch's life after SA. I think there was a veiled reference to a murder in there as well. Her email is currently out of commission. Does anyone know about her theories? Has she published any of them?
Butch | 5:55 p.m. July 21, 2009
GUE:
Pat Schroeder's Butch in Alaska story was, I think, told by Larry Pointer in his book "In Search of Butch Cassidy". Pointer's basic premise was that Butch Cassidy was, after his return from SA, one William Thadeus Phillips. Pointer used as his primary source a handwritten script by Phillips intended as a movie script under the working title of "The Bandit Invincible". In addition to that, Pointer and his wife conducted extensive interviews with survivors of the era in Wyoming and elsewhere in the west. Pointer also did quite a lot of research using the WPA writer's project materials as a guide. In addition to all that, Pointer did quite a lot of basic research in prison records, and reviewed and summarized with surprising accuracy some of the primary Pinkerton Documents available to him.
Initially Mr Pointer partnered with Jim Dullenty, a very respected writer and researcher, who began his career as an investigative reporter for a NW newspaper. As the research progressed, Dullenty formed the opinion that Phillips was not Cassidy, and the two men went their separate ways, with Pointer going forward on his own.
Continued ....
Pat Schroeder's Butch in Alaska story was, I think, told by Larry Pointer in his book "In Search of Butch Cassidy". Pointer's basic premise was that Butch Cassidy was, after his return from SA, one William Thadeus Phillips. Pointer used as his primary source a handwritten script by Phillips intended as a movie script under the working title of "The Bandit Invincible". In addition to that, Pointer and his wife conducted extensive interviews with survivors of the era in Wyoming and elsewhere in the west. Pointer also did quite a lot of research using the WPA writer's project materials as a guide. In addition to all that, Pointer did quite a lot of basic research in prison records, and reviewed and summarized with surprising accuracy some of the primary Pinkerton Documents available to him.
Initially Mr Pointer partnered with Jim Dullenty, a very respected writer and researcher, who began his career as an investigative reporter for a NW newspaper. As the research progressed, Dullenty formed the opinion that Phillips was not Cassidy, and the two men went their separate ways, with Pointer going forward on his own.
Continued ....
Butch | 6:10 p.m. July 21, 2009
At the present time I believe it is fair to say that the weight of opinion
amoung Wild Bunchers is that Phillips was not Cassidy, but either knew him or
knew close associates of Cassidy. A good deal of Pointer's work may have
found its way into Lula Parker Betenson's "Butch Cassidy, My
Brother", and he is referenced in a good many indexes of Wild Bunch
literature.
While I am in Dullenty's camp and do not believe Phillips was Cassidy, I find Mr. Pointer an excellent source of information on a quick reference basis. I can reccomend him as a very good basic book in your library. It should also be noted that Pointer was instrumental in bringing Boyd Charter's 1925 encounter with Cassidy to the public, and he interviewed several of the Charter family members, all of whom spoke well of him. In a good many circles, if you bring up Bill Phillips, get set for a spirited if not heated debate. Here is a great example. Ready, fellow bloggers?
Compare the circa 1887 photo of William J. C. "Outlaw Bill" Moore photo to the 1937 Bill Philipps photo. Look at the left eye.
Thoughts?
While I am in Dullenty's camp and do not believe Phillips was Cassidy, I find Mr. Pointer an excellent source of information on a quick reference basis. I can reccomend him as a very good basic book in your library. It should also be noted that Pointer was instrumental in bringing Boyd Charter's 1925 encounter with Cassidy to the public, and he interviewed several of the Charter family members, all of whom spoke well of him. In a good many circles, if you bring up Bill Phillips, get set for a spirited if not heated debate. Here is a great example. Ready, fellow bloggers?
Compare the circa 1887 photo of William J. C. "Outlaw Bill" Moore photo to the 1937 Bill Philipps photo. Look at the left eye.
Thoughts?
GUE | 10:09 a.m. July 22, 2009
Thanks, Butch. I think I remember reading somewhere that Pointer may have
changed his opinion about Phillips, maybe it was a comment from Dan Buck.
I'm not trying to stir things up, but any thoughts on that?
Horse Creek Cowboy | 12:02 p.m. July 22, 2009
Dates in Cholila:
Chatwin, citing the Police Commissioner has the trio in Cholila in June of '01. Seemingly, there may be confusion in years. He seemingly has this after registering for the land. That was in April 02, but registration gives numbers of animals, etc. so they were already there.
DiMaio. Meadows cites a handwritten memorandum written 40 years after the fact. Observation: Years tend to get confused that long after the fact, witness the next paragraph which cites 104 year old Pedro Pena as a source.
To add to confusion relating to place of death of the duo, Gavirati cites Chatwin as suggesting that the two were killed at Rio Pico: "Según Bruce Chatwin, sugiriendo que los bandoleros muertos en Río Pico eran Butch Cassidy y Sundance Kid, el soldado Pedro Pena, sobreviviente del tiroteo, habría afirmado en una entrevista realizada en 1970 en Rawson (a la edad de 104 años), que sobre los cuerpos de los bandoleros se hallaron dos relojes de oro y la foto de 'una mujer hermosísima'." Gavirati suggests, however, that no other sources confirm the photo of the beautiful woman.
Chatwin, citing the Police Commissioner has the trio in Cholila in June of '01. Seemingly, there may be confusion in years. He seemingly has this after registering for the land. That was in April 02, but registration gives numbers of animals, etc. so they were already there.
DiMaio. Meadows cites a handwritten memorandum written 40 years after the fact. Observation: Years tend to get confused that long after the fact, witness the next paragraph which cites 104 year old Pedro Pena as a source.
To add to confusion relating to place of death of the duo, Gavirati cites Chatwin as suggesting that the two were killed at Rio Pico: "Según Bruce Chatwin, sugiriendo que los bandoleros muertos en Río Pico eran Butch Cassidy y Sundance Kid, el soldado Pedro Pena, sobreviviente del tiroteo, habría afirmado en una entrevista realizada en 1970 en Rawson (a la edad de 104 años), que sobre los cuerpos de los bandoleros se hallaron dos relojes de oro y la foto de 'una mujer hermosísima'." Gavirati suggests, however, that no other sources confirm the photo of the beautiful woman.
GUE | 1:06 p.m. July 22, 2009
HCC: Thanks for the information on DiMaio. That handwritten article may be a
little tough to track down. Too bad he hadn't gotten it down earlier. In
fact, I'm surprised there isn't more written about DiMaio, or even
LeFors for that matter.
Butch: Is this "Outlaw Bill" (circa 1887) photo online? I'd like to compare it to Phillips.
Butch: Is this "Outlaw Bill" (circa 1887) photo online? I'd like to compare it to Phillips.
Tartan cowboy | 4:14 p.m. July 22, 2009
Butch:
I'd also like to see that photo to compare with phillips.
Hcc:
Hope the scots were hospitipal to you on your sojourn?Which parts of Scotland did you see?
I'd also like to see that photo to compare with phillips.
Hcc:
Hope the scots were hospitipal to you on your sojourn?Which parts of Scotland did you see?
Butch | 7:20 p.m. July 22, 2009
GUE and TCB:
The only photo of William J. C. Moore that I know of occurs following page 48 in "Siringo" by Ben E. Pingenot. Please remember I am not a computer person and am not up to speed on what is avilable on-line. You both are much more qualified than I am to search the net. Web? Web net? Whatever.
The photo comparison is one thing, however, as we have seen, photo comparison is a very tricky business and usually not dispositive of anything. I think I see a definate similarity between the two photos. I think the left eye is definative. What if the photos are of the same person? More to the point, is it possible they are of the same person? To answer that question you would have to carefully research both Bill Phillips and Outlaw Bill and you're going to have to compare their physical descriptions right down to height, weight, eye and hair color, complexion, and scars, marks, blemishes --and the left eye anomalie. Best you become a master of Larry Pointer, carefully read Bandit Invincible (now that is on line)and the four Charlie Siringo books you can get.
Continued ......
The only photo of William J. C. Moore that I know of occurs following page 48 in "Siringo" by Ben E. Pingenot. Please remember I am not a computer person and am not up to speed on what is avilable on-line. You both are much more qualified than I am to search the net. Web? Web net? Whatever.
The photo comparison is one thing, however, as we have seen, photo comparison is a very tricky business and usually not dispositive of anything. I think I see a definate similarity between the two photos. I think the left eye is definative. What if the photos are of the same person? More to the point, is it possible they are of the same person? To answer that question you would have to carefully research both Bill Phillips and Outlaw Bill and you're going to have to compare their physical descriptions right down to height, weight, eye and hair color, complexion, and scars, marks, blemishes --and the left eye anomalie. Best you become a master of Larry Pointer, carefully read Bandit Invincible (now that is on line)and the four Charlie Siringo books you can get.
Continued ......
Butch | 7:38 p.m. July 22, 2009
You needn't worry about Siringo's 5th Book. The only copy of that you
can get your hands on for under 50K is the only document in Charlie
Siringo's personell file in the Pinkerton documents at LOC.
After you've done the research on the two men as I've suggested, I expect that you'll arrive at a point where you can't rule out Phillips being Moore and you can't prove he is.
Welcome to the world of the Bunchers.
Now, if you have a command of the subject matter and if you remember the exchange I had with Mr Buck about Wyoming, 1887 and Charlie Siringo at the Keeline ranch you will recall that Tom Nichols/Hall received a letter from a Texas killer in cahoots with Dentist George Newberry in Argentina. And if you follow Siringo's trail you will find Outlaw Bill on the Chilicoot trail in Alaska, 1896. And if your're very persistent on the trail you will run across Pinkerton Informant #85 in California in 1910. Now if you haven't run out of gas, proceed to mastering the criminal history of Jim and Charley Ferguson.
Continued ......
After you've done the research on the two men as I've suggested, I expect that you'll arrive at a point where you can't rule out Phillips being Moore and you can't prove he is.
Welcome to the world of the Bunchers.
Now, if you have a command of the subject matter and if you remember the exchange I had with Mr Buck about Wyoming, 1887 and Charlie Siringo at the Keeline ranch you will recall that Tom Nichols/Hall received a letter from a Texas killer in cahoots with Dentist George Newberry in Argentina. And if you follow Siringo's trail you will find Outlaw Bill on the Chilicoot trail in Alaska, 1896. And if your're very persistent on the trail you will run across Pinkerton Informant #85 in California in 1910. Now if you haven't run out of gas, proceed to mastering the criminal history of Jim and Charley Ferguson.
Continued ......
Horse Creek Cowboy | 7:41 a.m. July 24, 2009
Tartan Cowboy:
Everyone in the UK is friendly. Saw: Spean Bridge and the monument to the Commandos, Ring of Brodgar and other rings in Orkney (reminded me of the Medicine Wheel west of Dayton, Wyoming), Skara Brae, Cawdor, Clava, Culloden, the Great Glen, and the Royal Mile.
Re Letter from George Newbery. Would be similar to a letter written by John C. Perry's wife back to Ozona indicating that some Americans had moved to Cholila and that her husband recognized them as Texas outlaws.
George Newbery, the dentist, was the uncle of Jorge Alejandro Newbery the balloonist and aviator. George and Ralph Newbery (Jorge's father) were the sons of a Long Island, New York, dentist who moved to Buenos Aires. Both George and Ralph as well as another brother Rudolfo were dentists. George and Ralph had a ranch some 100+ kilometers north of Cholila. Eduardo Newbery mysteriously disappeared. Jorge (the aviator) attended Cornell and graduated from Drexel.
Everyone in the UK is friendly. Saw: Spean Bridge and the monument to the Commandos, Ring of Brodgar and other rings in Orkney (reminded me of the Medicine Wheel west of Dayton, Wyoming), Skara Brae, Cawdor, Clava, Culloden, the Great Glen, and the Royal Mile.
Re Letter from George Newbery. Would be similar to a letter written by John C. Perry's wife back to Ozona indicating that some Americans had moved to Cholila and that her husband recognized them as Texas outlaws.
George Newbery, the dentist, was the uncle of Jorge Alejandro Newbery the balloonist and aviator. George and Ralph Newbery (Jorge's father) were the sons of a Long Island, New York, dentist who moved to Buenos Aires. Both George and Ralph as well as another brother Rudolfo were dentists. George and Ralph had a ranch some 100+ kilometers north of Cholila. Eduardo Newbery mysteriously disappeared. Jorge (the aviator) attended Cornell and graduated from Drexel.
Butch | 9:57 a.m. July 24, 2009
HCC:
Thanks so much for responding. I've become a real student of Ms Meadows "Digging" and whatever I can get my hands on of Mr. Buck and Ms Meadows articles and letters to the editors. I have the idea that every possible scrap of information we can get about the activities of Butch, Harry, and Ethel in SA is extraodinarily useful. In a sense they are like Pointer in that you can disagree with the conclusion of the work, but no fair minded person can fault the research or the quality and quantity of it. My thirst for more detail is a compliment to them for they have whetted my appetite for more. Thanks for helping to slake my thirst.
If "no good deed goes unpunished" is a natural law, you might expect that I have more questions of you.
The translation of Gavriati's book that I have makes reference to an 1887 "recruiting trip" to Texas for cowboys for the Newberry Ranch. (By George? Ranch at Rio Negro?) Any additional facts or detail you are of a mind to provide would be most appreciated. Thanks again.
Thanks so much for responding. I've become a real student of Ms Meadows "Digging" and whatever I can get my hands on of Mr. Buck and Ms Meadows articles and letters to the editors. I have the idea that every possible scrap of information we can get about the activities of Butch, Harry, and Ethel in SA is extraodinarily useful. In a sense they are like Pointer in that you can disagree with the conclusion of the work, but no fair minded person can fault the research or the quality and quantity of it. My thirst for more detail is a compliment to them for they have whetted my appetite for more. Thanks for helping to slake my thirst.
If "no good deed goes unpunished" is a natural law, you might expect that I have more questions of you.
The translation of Gavriati's book that I have makes reference to an 1887 "recruiting trip" to Texas for cowboys for the Newberry Ranch. (By George? Ranch at Rio Negro?) Any additional facts or detail you are of a mind to provide would be most appreciated. Thanks again.
Tartan Cowboy | 12:16 p.m. July 24, 2009
HCC:
Sound like you saw some interesting places over here.
Like GUE,i get lost sometimes trying to keep up.Exactly how many robberies did BC/Sk pull off?
And what about Wilcox,How many actually took part
Seems to be some confusion over this?
Sound like you saw some interesting places over here.
Like GUE,i get lost sometimes trying to keep up.Exactly how many robberies did BC/Sk pull off?
And what about Wilcox,How many actually took part
Seems to be some confusion over this?
Contacting Eamonn O'Neill | 3:05 p.m. July 25, 2009
Hello Everyone - Greetings from the other side of the Atlantic. I have been
inundated with people wanting to contact we regarding the work I did for my book
a decade a go on Butch and Sundance. I have lost count of the people who've
written, called and emailed me. Best way to grab me is via www.eamonnoneill.net.
I promise to do my best to answer everyone as soon as I can! Some great posts
here by the way. A few way off-base. But lot's on the mark. Some strange
stuff has come my way down the years. I firmly believe lots is still to be
uncovered. A mother-load still exists out there. Anway, happy travels and you
know where to reach me guys. Best wishes, Eamonn O'Neill.
www.eamonnoneill.net
Kid Charter | 11:24 a.m. July 31, 2009
TIPTON TRAIN ROBBERY
Marshall Joe LeFors claimed that he tracked the Tipton train robbers to Delany springs, LaFors claimed he found money wrappers on the escape route at Little Snake River, and LeFors claimed his posse reached the Snake River, near the Colorado border and were in visual range of three men with horses, climbing the slope on the other side of the river.
Yet in an interview less than three weeks after the train robbery, in his statements to the reporter, about the pursuit of the train robbers, Joe LeFlors’s account of the pursuit is nearly identical to the statements made to the newspapers, by Marshall Hadsell, Marshall Payne, and Sheriff McDaniel when they returned to Rawlins.
Continued
Marshall Joe LeFors claimed that he tracked the Tipton train robbers to Delany springs, LaFors claimed he found money wrappers on the escape route at Little Snake River, and LeFors claimed his posse reached the Snake River, near the Colorado border and were in visual range of three men with horses, climbing the slope on the other side of the river.
Yet in an interview less than three weeks after the train robbery, in his statements to the reporter, about the pursuit of the train robbers, Joe LeFlors’s account of the pursuit is nearly identical to the statements made to the newspapers, by Marshall Hadsell, Marshall Payne, and Sheriff McDaniel when they returned to Rawlins.
Continued
Kid Charter | 11:27 a.m. July 31, 2009
Interview with Joe LeFors, Tipton Train Robbery: September 18, 1900
He says in the interview, “After they (the train robbers) got through they mounted their horses and rode out seven miles where they stopped and cooked a meal.” (Delaney springs). “They could ride at night, traveling by compass, but we could only follow during daylight. Then there came a heavy rain storm and the sand just melted together and obliterated their tracks and it was simply impossible to follow them.” LeFors makes no mention of finding money wrappers, nor does he say he spotted three men on a ridge. To my knowledge, none of the deputies of any posse tracking the Tipton train robbers ever made a statement, supporting Leflors claims, nor did any of them make a similar statement.
Perhaps, someone out there would be kind enough to address the discrepancies in what Joe Lefors told the reporter, on September 18, 1900, and the statements supposedly attributed to Marshall Joe Lefors later.
He says in the interview, “After they (the train robbers) got through they mounted their horses and rode out seven miles where they stopped and cooked a meal.” (Delaney springs). “They could ride at night, traveling by compass, but we could only follow during daylight. Then there came a heavy rain storm and the sand just melted together and obliterated their tracks and it was simply impossible to follow them.” LeFors makes no mention of finding money wrappers, nor does he say he spotted three men on a ridge. To my knowledge, none of the deputies of any posse tracking the Tipton train robbers ever made a statement, supporting Leflors claims, nor did any of them make a similar statement.
Perhaps, someone out there would be kind enough to address the discrepancies in what Joe Lefors told the reporter, on September 18, 1900, and the statements supposedly attributed to Marshall Joe Lefors later.
GUE | 1:43 p.m. Aug. 1, 2009
Kid Charter,
I've never come across those discrepancies before, but very fascinating. I wonder if the reporter was taking liberties with LeFors' account. Having recently read each of the contemporary newspaper accounts on the M/A/Z/E site, I'm getting a clearer picture of how "facts" change, even at the time.
Eamonn,
Do you ever get people emailing accounts about relatives who saw Butch Cassidy after his return to the U.S.?
I've never come across those discrepancies before, but very fascinating. I wonder if the reporter was taking liberties with LeFors' account. Having recently read each of the contemporary newspaper accounts on the M/A/Z/E site, I'm getting a clearer picture of how "facts" change, even at the time.
Eamonn,
Do you ever get people emailing accounts about relatives who saw Butch Cassidy after his return to the U.S.?
just wondering | 8:34 p.m. Aug. 3, 2009
Does anyone know who Cail, Judy, and Henrie or Cail, and Judy Henerie might be
in relation to or traveling with Sunance Kid. Possibly in the Panguitch area
around 1927, if thats even possible. If so I have a interesting photo.
Just Wondering
Just Wondering
Wyoming Native | 6:20 a.m. Aug. 10, 2009
GUE- Concerning your Aug 1 comment about Joe LeFors. If anyone was taking
liberties in this instance it was Joe LeFors. His autobiography is pretty self
serving. I have been told that if you want to read an accurate story on a
person read a biography not an autobiography!
WN
WN
GUE | 8:35 a.m. Aug. 11, 2009
Wyoming Native,
That's interesting. I sometimes wonder about Siringo's accounts as well; I know it would've taken a lot of bravery/etc. to pursue people like Harvey Logan, but he's never afraid to talk about it. LeFors' autobiography is pretty tough to get a hold of (expensive too).
That's interesting. I sometimes wonder about Siringo's accounts as well; I know it would've taken a lot of bravery/etc. to pursue people like Harvey Logan, but he's never afraid to talk about it. LeFors' autobiography is pretty tough to get a hold of (expensive too).
Wyoming Native | 11:14 a.m. Aug. 15, 2009
GUE-
Get a copy of Chip Carlson's "I Slickered Tom Horn" which I think is still in print and much less expensive. It has about all one would want concerning Joe. Siringo was about of the same stripe but at least he saw the light after quitting the Pinks! Don't believe everything you read about either one of them though!
WN
Get a copy of Chip Carlson's "I Slickered Tom Horn" which I think is still in print and much less expensive. It has about all one would want concerning Joe. Siringo was about of the same stripe but at least he saw the light after quitting the Pinks! Don't believe everything you read about either one of them though!
WN
dclayrn | 2:21 p.m. Sept. 1, 2009
Kid Charter, I am directly related to the Charters you are speaking of .. just
wanting to know if you are as well.. My sister along with others in the family
have a vast amount of infor. if you are intrested.
Kjd Charter | 7:29 p.m. Sept. 2, 2009
dclayrn
Depending on which Charter you are speaking of, I’m either a Grandnephew or Grandson.
Anonymous | 7:52 a.m. Sept. 11, 2009
Kid | 7:51 a.m. April 7, 2009
May 26, 1908.
You might be interested in knowing that Butch Cassidys partner, alias Johnson, is back here on Snake River
Who was alias Johnson?
Answer:
P. N. D. A. Denver Agency.
Name Wm H. McGinnis alias Ealz A. Lay alias Johnson.
May 26, 1908.
You might be interested in knowing that Butch Cassidys partner, alias Johnson, is back here on Snake River
Who was alias Johnson?
Answer:
P. N. D. A. Denver Agency.
Name Wm H. McGinnis alias Ealz A. Lay alias Johnson.
Wyoming Native | 11:25 a.m. Sept. 14, 2009
Elzy might have been alias Johnson but his correct name was William Elzworth Lay
and his nick name was spelled Elzy! Just thought you might like to know.
WN
WN
Anonymous | 4:59 p.m. Sept. 14, 2009
WN
William Ellsworth Lay alias William H. McGinnis. I know how his name is spelled, evidently the Pinkerton’s didn’t.
M/A/Z/E Butch and Sundance - Elzy Lay PDNA Description.
William Ellsworth Lay alias William H. McGinnis. I know how his name is spelled, evidently the Pinkerton’s didn’t.
M/A/Z/E Butch and Sundance - Elzy Lay PDNA Description.
Kid Charter | 6:41 a.m. Sept. 15, 2009
June 6, 1908.
Mr. Jas McParland,
Denver, Colo.
Dear Sir:-
You might be interested in knowing that “Butch” Cassidy’s partner, alias Johnson, is back here on Snake River. He has been at Baggs for about six days staying with Bert Charters. There is another stranger who seems to be a friend of his, a very large light complected man, also here. I am writing this information for what it might be worth to you.
Truly yours, C. E. Ayer. May 26, 1908.
Newspaper Name: Carbon County Journal City: Rawlins Year: 1909 Month: 04-April Day: 24 Page: 02
Miss Calvert Becomes a Bride. W. H. McGinnis and Miss Mary Calvert of Baggs were married at Hahns Peak a couple of weeks ago, the announcement being received through papers from that section.
The bride is a daughter of L. Calvert the Baggs merchant, and has a large circle of friends on the river. Mr. McGinnis was formerly a resident of Baggs.
Mr. Jas McParland,
Denver, Colo.
Dear Sir:-
You might be interested in knowing that “Butch” Cassidy’s partner, alias Johnson, is back here on Snake River. He has been at Baggs for about six days staying with Bert Charters. There is another stranger who seems to be a friend of his, a very large light complected man, also here. I am writing this information for what it might be worth to you.
Truly yours, C. E. Ayer. May 26, 1908.
Newspaper Name: Carbon County Journal City: Rawlins Year: 1909 Month: 04-April Day: 24 Page: 02
Miss Calvert Becomes a Bride. W. H. McGinnis and Miss Mary Calvert of Baggs were married at Hahns Peak a couple of weeks ago, the announcement being received through papers from that section.
The bride is a daughter of L. Calvert the Baggs merchant, and has a large circle of friends on the river. Mr. McGinnis was formerly a resident of Baggs.
Kid Charter | 4:31 p.m. Sept. 15, 2009
The People's Voice article of October 30, 1897, J. Galloway and E. Lahey,
Harry Alonzo’s Belle Fourche alibi witnesses.
J. Galloway - Jesse F. Galloway, 26 Jun 1835, Indiana, 17 Dec 1905, Dixon, Carbon County, Wyoming,
E. Lahey, - Emmett Elden Leahy, 11 Jan 1877, Missouri, 29 Aug 1960, San Joaquin, California. (Leahy misspelled in The People's Voice article). Both Galloway and Leahy were ranchers in the Snake River Valley, in 1897.
Jesse F. Galloway’s first wife was Martha Medlock, they had one child, a son named Francis Marion Galloway, 18 Sep 1862, Missouri, 12 May 1950, Dixon, Carbon County, Wyoming. Jesse F. Galloway’s second wife was Elizabeth A. Beeler, sister of Hester Jennie “Beeler” Leahy, the mother of Emmett Elden Leahy.
March 1912, Emmett Elden Leahy married Mary Mae Galloway, the daughter of Francis Marion Galloway.
Jennie “Beeler” Leahy and Elizabeth “Beeler” Galloway were the sisters of Oscar Perry Beeler and were the first cousins of Conrad Mack Beeler, Little Snake River ranchers. The Galloways, Leahys and Beelers all came to the valley, in the 1880/90’s, from Missouri.
J. Galloway - Jesse F. Galloway, 26 Jun 1835, Indiana, 17 Dec 1905, Dixon, Carbon County, Wyoming,
E. Lahey, - Emmett Elden Leahy, 11 Jan 1877, Missouri, 29 Aug 1960, San Joaquin, California. (Leahy misspelled in The People's Voice article). Both Galloway and Leahy were ranchers in the Snake River Valley, in 1897.
Jesse F. Galloway’s first wife was Martha Medlock, they had one child, a son named Francis Marion Galloway, 18 Sep 1862, Missouri, 12 May 1950, Dixon, Carbon County, Wyoming. Jesse F. Galloway’s second wife was Elizabeth A. Beeler, sister of Hester Jennie “Beeler” Leahy, the mother of Emmett Elden Leahy.
March 1912, Emmett Elden Leahy married Mary Mae Galloway, the daughter of Francis Marion Galloway.
Jennie “Beeler” Leahy and Elizabeth “Beeler” Galloway were the sisters of Oscar Perry Beeler and were the first cousins of Conrad Mack Beeler, Little Snake River ranchers. The Galloways, Leahys and Beelers all came to the valley, in the 1880/90’s, from Missouri.
The Sundance Kids | 10:27 a.m. Sept. 28, 2009
From KSL TV/Radio in Salt Lake City:
DNA evidence shoots holes in Sundance Kid theory
September 15th, 2009 @ 10:06pm
By John Hollenhorst
SALT LAKE CITY -- Modern science has shot some holes in a controversial theory about a famous Utah outlaw. A team has been exploring the theory that rancher William Henry Long was really the Sundance Kid. Long's bones were dug up in the Duchesne City Cemetery a few months ago, but DNA evidence failed to link him to the Sundance Kid. Despite the fact that the piece of evidence researchers were hoping for the most has turned against them, they are not giving up. The investigation began last year. Old family stories tied Long to the outlaw gang known as "The Wild Bunch." The leaders, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, supposedly died in a shootout in South America in 1908, but Long lived to a ripe old age and died in Utah in 1936. . . . .
(The rest of the story is on the KSL website.)
DNA evidence shoots holes in Sundance Kid theory
September 15th, 2009 @ 10:06pm
By John Hollenhorst
SALT LAKE CITY -- Modern science has shot some holes in a controversial theory about a famous Utah outlaw. A team has been exploring the theory that rancher William Henry Long was really the Sundance Kid. Long's bones were dug up in the Duchesne City Cemetery a few months ago, but DNA evidence failed to link him to the Sundance Kid. Despite the fact that the piece of evidence researchers were hoping for the most has turned against them, they are not giving up. The investigation began last year. Old family stories tied Long to the outlaw gang known as "The Wild Bunch." The leaders, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, supposedly died in a shootout in South America in 1908, but Long lived to a ripe old age and died in Utah in 1936. . . . .
(The rest of the story is on the KSL website.)
Jerry Nickle | 6:02 p.m. Sept. 29, 2009
This story is not over. There is information that has not been released and
will be released publicly at the appropriate time
Ross Nickle | 9:41 p.m. Nov. 16, 2009
For the record, the statement "DNA evidence failed to link" by KSL
does not mean Bill Long is conclusively not Sundance. To trace Longs DNA to a
living relative, you have to go through at least 5 different people and 3 or 4
generations, any one of which could render the verdict
"inconclusive",(adoption, mistake in geneology, ect). The fact of the
matter in this case is that if the sequences do not line up, the result is just
simply "INCONCLUSIVE!!" I should know. My sister Bambie and I were the
first to get the mitochondrial DNA of Bill Long. And once again, the bullet had
missed. The genetic holy grail of western outlaw studies is extremely elusive.
Just ask Dan Buck. On the other hand, historical identity can be proven with
evidences outside of DNA.
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Suppose that rather than treating The Wild Bunch as an historical inquiry, we treated it as a criminal case that had been brought to trial. Further suppose that you and I and others on this blog were selected to serve on the jury. What then, would we jury members demand of the Prosecution and Defense? I expect that we would demand credible evidence which is to say facts leading to proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Competent counsul on both sides of the issue would argue facts and evidence. As honest jurors we would carefully weigh the evidence and arguments, be impartial, give both sides a fair hearing, and then deliberate to reach a verdict.
Under no circumstances would we accept rumor, theory, hypothesis, unsubstantiated allegations, or opinion as "evidence". We would accept qualified "expert opinion", but in that context "expert" does not mean a published author.
Foremost authorities need not apply!