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Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?
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Anonymous | 6:50 a.m. June 30, 2009
That could very well be the reason for what Mr. Longabaugh has on his feet.
Really more interested in what Cassidy has on. Apparently he is wearing his
every day boots, where the other (visible) two are not? Wonder why?
Gaylen Robison | 9:15 a.m. July 8, 2009
Back to square one. The only issue here is the claim that William Henry Long of
Duchesne, Utah is really Harry Alonzo Longabaugh the Sundance Kid. There are
many evidences that support our claim. Here is one clue that supports the
evidence: Grandpa Long had a picture of his two sisters that hung on the wall in
their home. The names of his sisters are Samanna and Emma. The photo of Sundance
with the Wild Bunch matches a photo of grandpa Long. Some coincidence.
If they are not the same man like the doubter's claim, why do the two men have the same sisters? That's even more of a coincidence. More yet: Grandpa Long's first daughter's name is Viola. Samanna's daughter's name is also Viola. Viola's daughter's name is Elva. She is my mother. Samanna's other daughter is Elva also. That's a fact! Now maybe all you old west historians can disprove this. But please, stop changing the subject. Good luck.
If they are not the same man like the doubter's claim, why do the two men have the same sisters? That's even more of a coincidence. More yet: Grandpa Long's first daughter's name is Viola. Samanna's daughter's name is also Viola. Viola's daughter's name is Elva. She is my mother. Samanna's other daughter is Elva also. That's a fact! Now maybe all you old west historians can disprove this. But please, stop changing the subject. Good luck.
tartan cowboy | 8:14 a.m. July 5, 2009
Haven't been able to access the blog for a few days.So a belated happy
independence day to all you guys and gals out there.
More dumb questions:
1: re sundances declaration of barely having enough money for lodgings to David gillespie,where was Gillespie situated?
2: How did SK travel to fort worth from here 21 days later.?
The shoes question is interesting.Was it a case that the photograph was then planned by someone and that the five were told to hightail it to FW as soon as possible? if so were the suits rented or borrowed for the occasion,but shoes/boots more difficult to borrow?Perhaps that is a bit fanciful as the suits do seem too good a fit to be off the peg.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
More dumb questions:
1: re sundances declaration of barely having enough money for lodgings to David gillespie,where was Gillespie situated?
2: How did SK travel to fort worth from here 21 days later.?
The shoes question is interesting.Was it a case that the photograph was then planned by someone and that the five were told to hightail it to FW as soon as possible? if so were the suits rented or borrowed for the occasion,but shoes/boots more difficult to borrow?Perhaps that is a bit fanciful as the suits do seem too good a fit to be off the peg.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
Comments continue below
Local Yokel | 5:12 a.m. July 6, 2009
TC:
1.) MacIntosh store in Slater, Colorado.
2.) Took the train at Walden, Colorado. Ft. Worth was a place they hung out and partied. Read Selcer's "Hell's Half Acre." They had plenty of money they just robbed a bank and train. They needed this type of clothes to run around down south and back east. Probably some of them just forgot to get new shoes. Or----maybe the haul from Tipton was more than from Winnemucca. LY
1.) MacIntosh store in Slater, Colorado.
2.) Took the train at Walden, Colorado. Ft. Worth was a place they hung out and partied. Read Selcer's "Hell's Half Acre." They had plenty of money they just robbed a bank and train. They needed this type of clothes to run around down south and back east. Probably some of them just forgot to get new shoes. Or----maybe the haul from Tipton was more than from Winnemucca. LY
Kid Montana | 6:45 a.m. July 6, 2009
tartan cowboy,
1: McIntosh's store, Slater, Colorado
2: by train from Wolcott, Colorado, with BC
shoes and clothes, no idea.
1: McIntosh's store, Slater, Colorado
2: by train from Wolcott, Colorado, with BC
shoes and clothes, no idea.
"Horse CreekCowboy | 5:32 a.m. July 8, 2009
Tartan Cowboy:
Slater is across the Colorado line from Baggs, Dixon and Savery,Wyoming where the Wild Bunch celebrated successful holdups which they pulled off in southern Wyoming. Walden is in northern Colorado west of Ft. Collins and to the southeast of Slater.
The Wild Bunch was an outgrowth of the Powder Springs Gang which used to hide out to the west of Slater. Slater, Baggs, etc. were extemely isolated and made an ideal place to hold such celebrations.
The area to the south of Baggs is very reminenscent of the Highlands of Scotland and about as isolated.
Slater is across the Colorado line from Baggs, Dixon and Savery,Wyoming where the Wild Bunch celebrated successful holdups which they pulled off in southern Wyoming. Walden is in northern Colorado west of Ft. Collins and to the southeast of Slater.
The Wild Bunch was an outgrowth of the Powder Springs Gang which used to hide out to the west of Slater. Slater, Baggs, etc. were extemely isolated and made an ideal place to hold such celebrations.
The area to the south of Baggs is very reminenscent of the Highlands of Scotland and about as isolated.
GUE | 12:47 p.m. July 8, 2009
Butch,
Wasn't there an alleged photograph of Butch in New York City sometime in 1902 or 1908? I can't seem to locate the prior comments about this on the blog.
Wasn't there an alleged photograph of Butch in New York City sometime in 1902 or 1908? I can't seem to locate the prior comments about this on the blog.
Kid Charter | 3:07 p.m. July 8, 2009
There are only two known copies of the original photograph of Harry Longabaugh
and Etta (Ethel) Place, supposedly taken at the DeYoung Studio, in New York
City. One was in the possession of the Pinkerton detective agency and the other
in the possession of Jano Magor, now in the possession of a Magor descendant.
The question is, was the original photograph taken at the DeYoung studio, or was
the DeYoung studio used to make additional copies of the original photograph?
test | 3:28 p.m. July 8, 2009
seriously, does this work?
GUE | 4:04 p.m. July 8, 2009
Kid Charter:
That's interesting. (Your information on the Bulldog Saloon photo was also very helpful.)
What do you know about the photo of Butch and Bert Charter on page 57 in Anne Charter's Cowboys Don't Walk? Do you think it's authentic? Do you know if there are any online sites with this picture?
That's interesting. (Your information on the Bulldog Saloon photo was also very helpful.)
What do you know about the photo of Butch and Bert Charter on page 57 in Anne Charter's Cowboys Don't Walk? Do you think it's authentic? Do you know if there are any online sites with this picture?
Just a thought | 5:56 p.m. July 8, 2009
GUE- Why don't you call Anne up. She is in the Billings phone book.
Tartan cowboy | 1:32 a.m. July 9, 2009
Gue:
I've now got a copy of the Charter book,thanks to Bob.I can't say there is a very strong likeness with butch in my opinion.The two purported photos in Ed KIrbys book are more of a likeness.What you think?
Someone also blogged about the likeness between Ethel and another photo in the Charter book,i think he was refering to Maud Charter.
I have a particular interest in photographs it feeds the artistic side of me.therfor when looking at a photograph it's with the(frustrated) artists eye that ilook at them.It's worth remembering that it is amazing when we have two or more authenticated photos of one person just how unlike each other they can be.Age,angle,shadowand weight all make a difference.
I've now got a copy of the Charter book,thanks to Bob.I can't say there is a very strong likeness with butch in my opinion.The two purported photos in Ed KIrbys book are more of a likeness.What you think?
Someone also blogged about the likeness between Ethel and another photo in the Charter book,i think he was refering to Maud Charter.
I have a particular interest in photographs it feeds the artistic side of me.therfor when looking at a photograph it's with the(frustrated) artists eye that ilook at them.It's worth remembering that it is amazing when we have two or more authenticated photos of one person just how unlike each other they can be.Age,angle,shadowand weight all make a difference.
GUE | 12:42 p.m. July 9, 2009
Just a thought:
That's a great idea. Didn't even think of that.
Tartan Cowboy:
I'm also fascinated with the visuals. Putting a face to the exploits seems to add real life to what I've read. and I think it was Butch (or someone else) who mentioned the politics of "verifying photos" (so that they fit certain "he came back" theories), which is a little frustrating. For example, I can't find a copy of the photos in Kirby's book anywhere! These collectible books are a little pricey.
If you're interested in potentially verifiable photos, I saw one online at a site called "Liveauction.com" a couple weeks back--supposedly given from Lula Betenson to a friend in 1957. the site claims the shot was taken in Robber's Roost in 1897 or '98. Same large jawline and similar growth patterns in the moustache, but I'm just not sure ...
Anyway, I'm off to call Anne Charter. Thanks again, just a thought.
That's a great idea. Didn't even think of that.
Tartan Cowboy:
I'm also fascinated with the visuals. Putting a face to the exploits seems to add real life to what I've read. and I think it was Butch (or someone else) who mentioned the politics of "verifying photos" (so that they fit certain "he came back" theories), which is a little frustrating. For example, I can't find a copy of the photos in Kirby's book anywhere! These collectible books are a little pricey.
If you're interested in potentially verifiable photos, I saw one online at a site called "Liveauction.com" a couple weeks back--supposedly given from Lula Betenson to a friend in 1957. the site claims the shot was taken in Robber's Roost in 1897 or '98. Same large jawline and similar growth patterns in the moustache, but I'm just not sure ...
Anyway, I'm off to call Anne Charter. Thanks again, just a thought.
kobalt | 1:02 p.m. July 9, 2009
WOW!! Seeing the lack of diplomacy and maturity in these blogs, as well as the
religious intolerance, really affects the credibility of the comments for me.
How about understanding something before buying into the hype and perpetuating
it? let's grow up people!
tartan cowboy | 1:14 p.m. July 9, 2009
Gue:
I got the Kirby book on Amazon for around 3 pounds.It's worth keeping an eye out,i waited for a while.
I got the Kirby book on Amazon for around 3 pounds.It's worth keeping an eye out,i waited for a while.
Horse Creek Cowboy | 5:24 a.m. July 13, 2009
Kid Charter:
With regard to whether the photo of Sundance and Ethel was taken by DeYoung Studios, look at photo posted on the Wikipidia article on "Etta Place." It is in original pasteboard frame clearly marked "Bliss Bros." 358 Main, Buffalo. Bliss Bros. were in business in Buffalo New York in the late 19th Century and early 20th Century. That would indicate that the photo may have been taken on a visit to Dr. Pierce's Hospital. It doesn't change anything relating to the original issue of 1901 vs 1902 in Argentina, since the most accurate information relies on Argentine sources rather than New York sources (other than the purchase of the Tiffany watch.
With regard to whether the photo of Sundance and Ethel was taken by DeYoung Studios, look at photo posted on the Wikipidia article on "Etta Place." It is in original pasteboard frame clearly marked "Bliss Bros." 358 Main, Buffalo. Bliss Bros. were in business in Buffalo New York in the late 19th Century and early 20th Century. That would indicate that the photo may have been taken on a visit to Dr. Pierce's Hospital. It doesn't change anything relating to the original issue of 1901 vs 1902 in Argentina, since the most accurate information relies on Argentine sources rather than New York sources (other than the purchase of the Tiffany watch.
Driftwood | 7:28 p.m. July 13, 2009
HCC
Are the Argentina documents more accurate than the Pinkerton files?
Are the Argentina documents more accurate than the Pinkerton files?
Kid Charter | 12:39 p.m. July 15, 2009
HCC
The question then becomes whether the photograph was taken at Bliss Bros. on a visit to Dr. Pierce's Hospital, in Buffalo, New York. Then later Longabaugh decided to have copies made at the DeYoung studio, in New York City, that might explain the DeYoung frame, without the studio stamp, Longabaugh then mailed copies of the photograph with the DeYoung frame to friends, then again, perhaps the Pinkerton detective had copies made at DeYoung’s??
The question then becomes whether the photograph was taken at Bliss Bros. on a visit to Dr. Pierce's Hospital, in Buffalo, New York. Then later Longabaugh decided to have copies made at the DeYoung studio, in New York City, that might explain the DeYoung frame, without the studio stamp, Longabaugh then mailed copies of the photograph with the DeYoung frame to friends, then again, perhaps the Pinkerton detective had copies made at DeYoung’s??
Horse Creek Cowboy | 1:03 p.m. July 15, 2009
Driftwood:
Last march the subject of the accuracy or lack thereof of the Pinkerton files was endlessly debated. The Pinkerton files make a good starting point for further research, but to a great extent are to borrow someone elses' phrase are "the sweepings of the bowels of an attic." Generally speaking, the New York files are better than the Denver files which lovingly repeat every item of gossip and rumor which came to their attention. The information as to bank deposits, brand registration, and application for land in Chubut fairly well establish that Butch, Sundance, and Ethel were in Argentina in late 1901. The name of the ship upon which they sailed and the date thereof is apparently based upon circumstantial evidence based on, among other things, the date of the purchase of the watch.
With regard to the DeYoung photo, I cannot picture Sundance and Ethel carrying the photo around with them down to Argentina, back to New York, and up to Buffalo to have an additional copy made. The Pinkertons did trace Sundance and Ethel to Dr. Pierce's. My assumption is they got a copy in Buffalo and had additonal copies made at DeYoung's.
Last march the subject of the accuracy or lack thereof of the Pinkerton files was endlessly debated. The Pinkerton files make a good starting point for further research, but to a great extent are to borrow someone elses' phrase are "the sweepings of the bowels of an attic." Generally speaking, the New York files are better than the Denver files which lovingly repeat every item of gossip and rumor which came to their attention. The information as to bank deposits, brand registration, and application for land in Chubut fairly well establish that Butch, Sundance, and Ethel were in Argentina in late 1901. The name of the ship upon which they sailed and the date thereof is apparently based upon circumstantial evidence based on, among other things, the date of the purchase of the watch.
With regard to the DeYoung photo, I cannot picture Sundance and Ethel carrying the photo around with them down to Argentina, back to New York, and up to Buffalo to have an additional copy made. The Pinkertons did trace Sundance and Ethel to Dr. Pierce's. My assumption is they got a copy in Buffalo and had additonal copies made at DeYoung's.
tartan cowboy | 2:50 p.m. July 15, 2009
As regard the deyoung photo didn'nt Harry send a copy to david
gillespie,statingthat this was his new wife?
Horse creek cowbow:
The highlands of Scotland are very desolate indeed it must have been very harsh the conditions the guys had to put up with.
HCC.
I'm very new to all this : as i'm sure you know. what is your perspective on what happened to BC/SK ?
Horse creek cowbow:
The highlands of Scotland are very desolate indeed it must have been very harsh the conditions the guys had to put up with.
HCC.
I'm very new to all this : as i'm sure you know. what is your perspective on what happened to BC/SK ?
Driftwood | 5:38 p.m. July 15, 2009
HCC
Marcelo Gavirati’s book includes all of the Argintina sources. On page 15 it states they got to the Terretory 1902. Why would they purchase livestock in 1901 if they were not to the territory until 1902?
Marcelo Gavirati’s book includes all of the Argintina sources. On page 15 it states they got to the Terretory 1902. Why would they purchase livestock in 1901 if they were not to the territory until 1902?
Drifwood | 5:45 p.m. July 15, 2009
HCC
The Pinkerton memo that states Sundance was at the Buffalo Hospital the summer of 1901 is a Philadelphia Memo. Are the Philadelphia memos reliable?
The Pinkerton memo that states Sundance was at the Buffalo Hospital the summer of 1901 is a Philadelphia Memo. Are the Philadelphia memos reliable?
Driftwood | 5:59 p.m. July 15, 2009
HCC
The application for land was in 1902. Except for the unsubstantiated Gaririti documents are there any American documents that show Butch went to Argentina in 1901? Are there any American documents that show Sundance stayed in Buenos Aires longer than making the Bank deposit in 1901?
Driftwood | 7:00 p.m. July 15, 2009
HCC
What name did Butch use when he purchased the Tiffany watch for Etta? Was it Bob Parker, Jack Ryan or Butch Cassidy?
What name did Butch use when he purchased the Tiffany watch for Etta? Was it Bob Parker, Jack Ryan or Butch Cassidy?
Driftwood | 8:55 a.m. July 18, 2009
The Tiffany Co. charges five hundred dollars for a search of their records.
They sold many watches in 1901 but they do not have record of Butch purchasing
any watch. The records do not mention Butch Cassidy, Robert Parker or James
Ryan. Making the clam that one of the watches was purchased by Butch Cassidy is
opinion not documented fact.
Horse Creek Cowboy | 10:12 a.m. July 18, 2009
Re: Names used for purchase of Tiffany Watch.
In March, Dan Buck wrote “In 1992, Tiffany & Co. informed me that their records indicate that on February 4, 1901, James Ryan, living at 234 East 12th Street, bought a watch, serial number 68210/1685, for $40.10. Also, Tiffany informed a colleague that on June 25, 1902, H.A. Place, no address given, bought a watch, serial number 2590-1128643, for $15.35.
”The dates of those purchases, by the way, coincide with what we know from other sources, e.g., Pinkerton and Argentine archives, about BC and SK's movements.”
Tartan Cowboy:
The "Holes" of Northern Colorado, Western Wyoming, and Mogollon Country of Western New Mexico were indeed desolate and isolated making Scotland seem in comparisom almost as crowded modern-day England. The distances are large, from Brown's Hole to Alma is almost the distance from South Hampton to John O'Groats, a distance I recently drove, but few towns, and making John O'Groats almost seem like a
metropolis.
My take: Sundance and Butch died in South America.
Whether at San Vicente or elsewhere is the question, but we all love mysteries. Solved mysteries are less interesting.
In March, Dan Buck wrote “In 1992, Tiffany & Co. informed me that their records indicate that on February 4, 1901, James Ryan, living at 234 East 12th Street, bought a watch, serial number 68210/1685, for $40.10. Also, Tiffany informed a colleague that on June 25, 1902, H.A. Place, no address given, bought a watch, serial number 2590-1128643, for $15.35.
”The dates of those purchases, by the way, coincide with what we know from other sources, e.g., Pinkerton and Argentine archives, about BC and SK's movements.”
Tartan Cowboy:
The "Holes" of Northern Colorado, Western Wyoming, and Mogollon Country of Western New Mexico were indeed desolate and isolated making Scotland seem in comparisom almost as crowded modern-day England. The distances are large, from Brown's Hole to Alma is almost the distance from South Hampton to John O'Groats, a distance I recently drove, but few towns, and making John O'Groats almost seem like a
metropolis.
My take: Sundance and Butch died in South America.
Whether at San Vicente or elsewhere is the question, but we all love mysteries. Solved mysteries are less interesting.
GUE | 12:43 p.m. July 18, 2009
A quick question. Does anyone know how long did the statute of limitations
lasted on crimes at this time? If the last alleged crime for Butch Cassidy on
American soil was at Wagner, Montana in 1901, when would he have been no longer
a wanted man? Did the different states have different statutes?
Any information greatly appreciated.
Any information greatly appreciated.
Butch | 6:24 p.m. July 18, 2009
GUE:
The applicable SOL depends on where you commit the crime and what kind of crime you commit. However, that said, never commit a crime --misdemeanor, gross misdemeanor, or felony -- in Wyoming. Dating from the days of Territorial status right up to the present time, there is no SOL in Wyoming for anything. One pan fish over the limit and those Wyoming cowboys can track you, arrest you, convict you and incarcerate you 100 years or more after you gut and gilled the fish.
Fortunately for Butch and Harry, the last crime they were wanted for was the Winnemucca Bank job -- not Wagner. Nevada is a lot more "civilized" than Wy and, at the time had a 6 year SOL for felonies like robbing a bank. So what would you expect from a state that is home to both the Bunny Ranch and Harry Reed?
Yep, Butch and Harry were free to show up in 1908, walk around Rawlins and Litle Snake and tip their Stetsons to Frank Hadsell. No problem. The SOL had tolled.
The applicable SOL depends on where you commit the crime and what kind of crime you commit. However, that said, never commit a crime --misdemeanor, gross misdemeanor, or felony -- in Wyoming. Dating from the days of Territorial status right up to the present time, there is no SOL in Wyoming for anything. One pan fish over the limit and those Wyoming cowboys can track you, arrest you, convict you and incarcerate you 100 years or more after you gut and gilled the fish.
Fortunately for Butch and Harry, the last crime they were wanted for was the Winnemucca Bank job -- not Wagner. Nevada is a lot more "civilized" than Wy and, at the time had a 6 year SOL for felonies like robbing a bank. So what would you expect from a state that is home to both the Bunny Ranch and Harry Reed?
Yep, Butch and Harry were free to show up in 1908, walk around Rawlins and Litle Snake and tip their Stetsons to Frank Hadsell. No problem. The SOL had tolled.
Anonymous | 9:34 p.m. July 18, 2009
In the “The Gunfighters” of the Time/life series on page 93 is large
photo of Sundance and Etta. There IS NOT a Buffalo stamp. This book was
published in 1977. I suspect someone has done some computer handiwork and
added the Buffalo stamp with this latest discovered photo.
Just a Comment | 6:21 a.m. July 19, 2009
Butch- Evidently you are not aware that the authorities were quite certain that
Harry Longabaugh was one of the Wilcox train robbers and that Butch Cassidy was
also suspected of participation in both this robbery and the robbery of the UP
at Tipton over a year later. These offenses occurred in Wyoming, therefore no
SOL would have applied.
Butch | 3:17 p.m. July 19, 2009
Just A Comment:
1.) On May 15, 1901 Pinkertons issued Reward Circular No 1 for Butch and Harry. In that reward circular:
Harry Longabaugh was wanted for Winnemucca, the 1892 Malta, Montana, robbery of the Great Northern with Bill Madden and Harry Bass, the Belle Fourche bank job, and breaking jail at Deadwood. The reward circular detailed his incarceration at Sundance. There was no want for Harry for Wilcox or Tipton, and by May 15, 1901 the Pinkertons, the UP, and Marshall Hadsel had determined Longabaugh had not taken part. That never changed. Ever.
Butch was wanted for Winnemucca. His criminal history was given as incarceration at Laramie between July 15, 1894 and January 19, 1896. There was no want for Butch for either Wilcox or Tipton. As in the case of Longabaugh,the Pinkertons, the UP, and Marshall Hadsel had determined that Butch wasn't involved in either train robbery.
2.) On January 24, 1902, Reward Circular No. 2 was issued and detailed the identical wants and history as Reward Circular No. 1. Neither was wanted for Wilcox, Tipton, --or Wagner for that matter.
Continued .....
1.) On May 15, 1901 Pinkertons issued Reward Circular No 1 for Butch and Harry. In that reward circular:
Harry Longabaugh was wanted for Winnemucca, the 1892 Malta, Montana, robbery of the Great Northern with Bill Madden and Harry Bass, the Belle Fourche bank job, and breaking jail at Deadwood. The reward circular detailed his incarceration at Sundance. There was no want for Harry for Wilcox or Tipton, and by May 15, 1901 the Pinkertons, the UP, and Marshall Hadsel had determined Longabaugh had not taken part. That never changed. Ever.
Butch was wanted for Winnemucca. His criminal history was given as incarceration at Laramie between July 15, 1894 and January 19, 1896. There was no want for Butch for either Wilcox or Tipton. As in the case of Longabaugh,the Pinkertons, the UP, and Marshall Hadsel had determined that Butch wasn't involved in either train robbery.
2.) On January 24, 1902, Reward Circular No. 2 was issued and detailed the identical wants and history as Reward Circular No. 1. Neither was wanted for Wilcox, Tipton, --or Wagner for that matter.
Continued .....
Butch | 3:30 p.m. July 19, 2009
3.) On November 14, 1904, Reward Circular No. 3 was issued and gave the same
information and the same wants for both Butch and Harry as Circulars 1 and 2.
There was no want for Wilcox, Tipton, or Wagner.
4.) An undated cicular was issued in SA in 1903. That circular was identical in criminal history and wants as Reward Circulars 1, 2, and 3.
So where did the idea that Butch and Harry were wanted for Wilcox, Tipton, or Wagner come from? Why it came from the "experts" of course, chiefly Kirby, Ernst, and Kelly. Precious little that these three story tellers have to say ever bears up on close examination of the base documents.
No, what I blogged is absolutely accurate. In 1908 Butch and Harry could walk the streets of Rawlins or Baggs, Dixon, Savery, or Slater without fear. The SOL on Winnemucca had tolled (as had Montana's for Malta and Wagner) and neither man was wanted for Tipton or Wilcox. You can read the frustration in the correspondence between Hadsell, Pinkertons, and various express companies. It isn't pretty --but I think its wonderfully amusing.
4.) An undated cicular was issued in SA in 1903. That circular was identical in criminal history and wants as Reward Circulars 1, 2, and 3.
So where did the idea that Butch and Harry were wanted for Wilcox, Tipton, or Wagner come from? Why it came from the "experts" of course, chiefly Kirby, Ernst, and Kelly. Precious little that these three story tellers have to say ever bears up on close examination of the base documents.
No, what I blogged is absolutely accurate. In 1908 Butch and Harry could walk the streets of Rawlins or Baggs, Dixon, Savery, or Slater without fear. The SOL on Winnemucca had tolled (as had Montana's for Malta and Wagner) and neither man was wanted for Tipton or Wilcox. You can read the frustration in the correspondence between Hadsell, Pinkertons, and various express companies. It isn't pretty --but I think its wonderfully amusing.
Butch | 4:01 p.m. July 19, 2009
Anonymous:
I'm right with you on the Bliss/Buffalo photo. I'd sure like more discussion of it. As far as "photo shopping" the Bliss logo onto the frame, of that I'm not so sure. The Bliss/Buffalo version referred to so far is from a scan from the Library of Congress, which, in my opinion, argues against "photo shopping" manipulation.
I don't know if this is any help, but the two documents scanned right after the Bliss/Buffalo photo were pages 1 and 2 of the SA circular using issolations from the photo for Harry and alias Ethel Place. The three scans are sandwiched between extraneous documents not from the Pinkerton files.
Again, I don't know if this helps but William decreed that the "DeYong" (Bliss/Buffalo?) photo not be put in the Pinkerton Gallery, but placed in Longabaugh's Criminal History. Because alias Ethel Place wasn't wanted for a crime? Harboring a fugative?
Its a real bang your head against a brick wall mystery, ain't it? Let's hope some of our fellow contributors to the blog can help us out.
I'm right with you on the Bliss/Buffalo photo. I'd sure like more discussion of it. As far as "photo shopping" the Bliss logo onto the frame, of that I'm not so sure. The Bliss/Buffalo version referred to so far is from a scan from the Library of Congress, which, in my opinion, argues against "photo shopping" manipulation.
I don't know if this is any help, but the two documents scanned right after the Bliss/Buffalo photo were pages 1 and 2 of the SA circular using issolations from the photo for Harry and alias Ethel Place. The three scans are sandwiched between extraneous documents not from the Pinkerton files.
Again, I don't know if this helps but William decreed that the "DeYong" (Bliss/Buffalo?) photo not be put in the Pinkerton Gallery, but placed in Longabaugh's Criminal History. Because alias Ethel Place wasn't wanted for a crime? Harboring a fugative?
Its a real bang your head against a brick wall mystery, ain't it? Let's hope some of our fellow contributors to the blog can help us out.
Horse Creek Cowboy | 11:00 a.m. July 20, 2009
Re: "walking streets" and Statutes of Limitation.
In 1902 the Protective Committee of the American Bankers Association reported that Parker and Longabaugh had been indicted for the Winnemucca Bank robbery. The indictment stopped the running of any statute of limitations and both Parker and Longabaugh would have been subject to arrest and extradition to Nevada. Also, there is no statute of limitations for murder. Sheriff Hazen was murdered in Wyoming. All who participated would have been subject to being indicted for his homicide.
In 1902 the Protective Committee of the American Bankers Association reported that Parker and Longabaugh had been indicted for the Winnemucca Bank robbery. The indictment stopped the running of any statute of limitations and both Parker and Longabaugh would have been subject to arrest and extradition to Nevada. Also, there is no statute of limitations for murder. Sheriff Hazen was murdered in Wyoming. All who participated would have been subject to being indicted for his homicide.
Driftwood | 11:19 a.m. July 20, 2009
Did Sundance return from Argentina after he made the March 23, 1901 bank
deposit? This newspaper article of the time confirms he did.
Anaconda Standard.
July 14,1901
“How the train was robbed near Wagner” (July 3, 1901)
……. Longabaugh has been a friend of the Curry family……… In recent weeks he appeared in Malta and has not tried very hard to escape recognition.
Anaconda Standard.
July 14,1901
“How the train was robbed near Wagner” (July 3, 1901)
……. Longabaugh has been a friend of the Curry family……… In recent weeks he appeared in Malta and has not tried very hard to escape recognition.
Butch | 12:19 p.m. July 20, 2009
HCC:
1.) Do you know the date, place, and Court from which the indictment of Longabauagh and Parker was issued? I agree, if such an indictment was issued the running of the SOL would be stopped. I'd like to know more about the indictment for several reasons. First, we might learn something more from looking at the indictment, and if possible, the court file from the court issuing the indictment. Second, it would be useful to know why the reward circulars don't mention the indictment. Third, it would be useful to know why the Pinkertons, on behalf of the ABA, didn't follow up on the 1908 sightings in Wyoming. I sure would appreciate any information you can supply regarding the indictment of Butch and Harry for Winnemucca.
2.) Neither Butch nor Harry needed to be accused of Hazen's murder to have a Wyoming case brought against them. Mere participation in the Wilcox or Tipton robberies would have been sufficient. I agree that murder does not have an SOL in any jurisdiction of which I am aware. In this case, that is immaterial. Wyoming doesn't have an SOL. Period.
Coninued ....
1.) Do you know the date, place, and Court from which the indictment of Longabauagh and Parker was issued? I agree, if such an indictment was issued the running of the SOL would be stopped. I'd like to know more about the indictment for several reasons. First, we might learn something more from looking at the indictment, and if possible, the court file from the court issuing the indictment. Second, it would be useful to know why the reward circulars don't mention the indictment. Third, it would be useful to know why the Pinkertons, on behalf of the ABA, didn't follow up on the 1908 sightings in Wyoming. I sure would appreciate any information you can supply regarding the indictment of Butch and Harry for Winnemucca.
2.) Neither Butch nor Harry needed to be accused of Hazen's murder to have a Wyoming case brought against them. Mere participation in the Wilcox or Tipton robberies would have been sufficient. I agree that murder does not have an SOL in any jurisdiction of which I am aware. In this case, that is immaterial. Wyoming doesn't have an SOL. Period.
Coninued ....
Butch | 12:34 p.m. July 20, 2009
I'd also appreciate your help in trying to deal with the following isssues
regarding Wilcox.
1.) Wayne Kindred makes, I think, a convincing argument that there were three and only three robbers, and not four, five, or six, as various people have contended.
2.) Kindred relies on, among other things, the May 5, 1900 interview with Bob Lee. Lee, of course, has a vested interest in maintaining that there were only three robbers, since if that were proved he would have been wrongfully convicted. Never the less, Lee's contention that Harvey Logan, Frank Scramble, and the "man who went to Utah" were the robbers is borne out by:
--Hazen and posse followed three and only three sets of tracks from the robbery point.
--Horn's "interrogation" of Speck produced the information that two of the robbers were George Flatnose Currie and Harvey Ray. A third man who was with them was not named. Lee named him: Harvey Logan.
--Currie in fact went to Utah, and was spoken to by Isom Dart, and later killed there by Sheriff Tyler.
1.) Wayne Kindred makes, I think, a convincing argument that there were three and only three robbers, and not four, five, or six, as various people have contended.
2.) Kindred relies on, among other things, the May 5, 1900 interview with Bob Lee. Lee, of course, has a vested interest in maintaining that there were only three robbers, since if that were proved he would have been wrongfully convicted. Never the less, Lee's contention that Harvey Logan, Frank Scramble, and the "man who went to Utah" were the robbers is borne out by:
--Hazen and posse followed three and only three sets of tracks from the robbery point.
--Horn's "interrogation" of Speck produced the information that two of the robbers were George Flatnose Currie and Harvey Ray. A third man who was with them was not named. Lee named him: Harvey Logan.
--Currie in fact went to Utah, and was spoken to by Isom Dart, and later killed there by Sheriff Tyler.
Butch | 12:53 p.m. July 20, 2009
At Lee's trial, none of the witnesses testified that they ever saw more
than three robbers at any one time.
Lee's Description of "Frank Scramble" tallies exactly with that of Frank Jones/Roberts as given by Sheriff Plunkett in Deadwood.
Putting this all together what I come up with is that three and only three men robbed Wilcox: Harvey Logan, George "Flatnose" Currie, and Harvey Ray.
And that is precisely the problem I'm having because if Harvey Ray was the third robber then Ray was "Frank Scramble" and Frank Roberts/Jones. And, if Frank Roberts/Jones is Harvey Ray, then Harry Longabaugh wasn't arrested in Montana, wasn't in Deadwood, and didn't break jail on October 31, 1897.
That would be consistent with Wilson D. "Billy" Smith not identifying Frank Jones/Roberts as Longabaugh through two court proceedings. It is also consistent with Hicks and Smith returning to Montana after George Currie, the missing named defendant of the Butte County Robbery.
If Harry wasn't in jail in Deadwood, and wasn't Frank Jones/Roberts, why couldn't he have been in Loa, fathering a child under the name Bill Long?
Help!
Thanks
Lee's Description of "Frank Scramble" tallies exactly with that of Frank Jones/Roberts as given by Sheriff Plunkett in Deadwood.
Putting this all together what I come up with is that three and only three men robbed Wilcox: Harvey Logan, George "Flatnose" Currie, and Harvey Ray.
And that is precisely the problem I'm having because if Harvey Ray was the third robber then Ray was "Frank Scramble" and Frank Roberts/Jones. And, if Frank Roberts/Jones is Harvey Ray, then Harry Longabaugh wasn't arrested in Montana, wasn't in Deadwood, and didn't break jail on October 31, 1897.
That would be consistent with Wilson D. "Billy" Smith not identifying Frank Jones/Roberts as Longabaugh through two court proceedings. It is also consistent with Hicks and Smith returning to Montana after George Currie, the missing named defendant of the Butte County Robbery.
If Harry wasn't in jail in Deadwood, and wasn't Frank Jones/Roberts, why couldn't he have been in Loa, fathering a child under the name Bill Long?
Help!
Thanks
Horse Creek Cowboy | 1:22 p.m. July 20, 2009
Re various issues:
1. The Anaconda Standard "sighting. Newspaper accounts of the time were unreliable. Practically all robberies of the time were attributed to the duo. Last spring, I gave a listing of sightings reported in various newspapers. The generally accepted theory is that Sundance and Ethel did not return to US until 1902, although there was one report from 1901 in Buffalo.
William Pinkerton in his 1903 report to ABA indicated that the duo had left the country, but he knew where they were.
2. Going on memory, it is my understanding that following the Wilcox robbery, the gang split, half northward toward the Hole in the Wall and half southward toward Colorado. The robbery was attributed to the Roberts Brothers, a name sometimes allegedly used by Butch and Sundance.
3. Venue for any indictment would have been Humboldt County. Indictment in the mane of "George Parker" and "Henry Longbaugh" The error in name would not, however, under Nevada law been fatal to the indictment. The report was in the fall of '02. My guess then is 1902.
4. Theory on Photo. It was stolen by Pinkertons out of mail to Longabaugh's family.
1. The Anaconda Standard "sighting. Newspaper accounts of the time were unreliable. Practically all robberies of the time were attributed to the duo. Last spring, I gave a listing of sightings reported in various newspapers. The generally accepted theory is that Sundance and Ethel did not return to US until 1902, although there was one report from 1901 in Buffalo.
William Pinkerton in his 1903 report to ABA indicated that the duo had left the country, but he knew where they were.
2. Going on memory, it is my understanding that following the Wilcox robbery, the gang split, half northward toward the Hole in the Wall and half southward toward Colorado. The robbery was attributed to the Roberts Brothers, a name sometimes allegedly used by Butch and Sundance.
3. Venue for any indictment would have been Humboldt County. Indictment in the mane of "George Parker" and "Henry Longbaugh" The error in name would not, however, under Nevada law been fatal to the indictment. The report was in the fall of '02. My guess then is 1902.
4. Theory on Photo. It was stolen by Pinkertons out of mail to Longabaugh's family.
Butch | 2:37 p.m. July 20, 2009
HCC:
Winnemucca: I think you've confused the supposed "indictments" of Butch and Harry with the various wants, warrants, and indictments for Frank Jones, Dave Jones, Charlie Craig, "Perkins" Melville Fuller, Willie Wier and Francis Silve, all of whom were arrested/detained/incarcerated --however briefly-- for the Winnemucca job. At the encouragement of the Pinkertons it is perfectly understandable that one, some, or all of these suspects were confused in the minds of the Protective Committee as being Parker and Longabaugh. However, Protective Committee confusion or not, the fact remains that Parker and Longabaugh --under any allowable variation of their respective names -- were never indicted for Winnemucca. Ever. Nope. The SOL tolled for the boys on at midnight on September 19, 1906. It was a good thought, though, and nice detail. Thanks for bringing it up. When I asked for the court issuing the indictment I was fishing for either Grand Jury or District Court.
On Wilcox: You've accurately stated the theories and supposition of our "experts" but the primary problem with all of them is that:
1.) There were not three sets of tracks going south.
Continued .......
Winnemucca: I think you've confused the supposed "indictments" of Butch and Harry with the various wants, warrants, and indictments for Frank Jones, Dave Jones, Charlie Craig, "Perkins" Melville Fuller, Willie Wier and Francis Silve, all of whom were arrested/detained/incarcerated --however briefly-- for the Winnemucca job. At the encouragement of the Pinkertons it is perfectly understandable that one, some, or all of these suspects were confused in the minds of the Protective Committee as being Parker and Longabaugh. However, Protective Committee confusion or not, the fact remains that Parker and Longabaugh --under any allowable variation of their respective names -- were never indicted for Winnemucca. Ever. Nope. The SOL tolled for the boys on at midnight on September 19, 1906. It was a good thought, though, and nice detail. Thanks for bringing it up. When I asked for the court issuing the indictment I was fishing for either Grand Jury or District Court.
On Wilcox: You've accurately stated the theories and supposition of our "experts" but the primary problem with all of them is that:
1.) There were not three sets of tracks going south.
Continued .......
Butch | 2:54 p.m. July 20, 2009
2.)There was more than five named suspects:
--Harvey Logan, clearly a participant, and a "Roberts", or Jones if you like
--George Flatnose Currie, clearly a participant.
--The elusive Mr. Roberts, or Jones, or Scramble, depending on your preference.
--Robert E. Lee, clearly guilty only of possessing stolen money.
--Lonnie Logan, clearly guilty only of possessing stolen money.
The fact is, after the May 5, 1900 interview with Lee, nobody was looking for a sixth man, and Hadsell was only interested in Frank Roberts/Jones/Scramble as Harvey Ray. Hadsell's correspondence with the Pinkertons following the interview makes this last point crystal clear.
The further fact is there never was a want or warrant issued for either Butch or Harry for either Tipton or Wilcox. Ever. Never.
On Frank Jones/Roberts/Harry: The People's Voice article detailing Galloway and Leahy's involvement is fraught with problems:
1.) Neither man could have gone to Fort Pierre to see Alonzo. Frank Roberts was locked up in the Lawrence County Jail in Deadwood, not Pierre.
2.) Payment of a reward would have nothing whatever to do with their ability to see "Roberts". He wasn't being held incomunacado.
Continued ....
--Harvey Logan, clearly a participant, and a "Roberts", or Jones if you like
--George Flatnose Currie, clearly a participant.
--The elusive Mr. Roberts, or Jones, or Scramble, depending on your preference.
--Robert E. Lee, clearly guilty only of possessing stolen money.
--Lonnie Logan, clearly guilty only of possessing stolen money.
The fact is, after the May 5, 1900 interview with Lee, nobody was looking for a sixth man, and Hadsell was only interested in Frank Roberts/Jones/Scramble as Harvey Ray. Hadsell's correspondence with the Pinkertons following the interview makes this last point crystal clear.
The further fact is there never was a want or warrant issued for either Butch or Harry for either Tipton or Wilcox. Ever. Never.
On Frank Jones/Roberts/Harry: The People's Voice article detailing Galloway and Leahy's involvement is fraught with problems:
1.) Neither man could have gone to Fort Pierre to see Alonzo. Frank Roberts was locked up in the Lawrence County Jail in Deadwood, not Pierre.
2.) Payment of a reward would have nothing whatever to do with their ability to see "Roberts". He wasn't being held incomunacado.
Continued ....
Butch | 3:06 p.m. July 20, 2009
3.) The payment of a reward had nothing whatever to do with the two being able
to see and talk to "Roberts" lawyers.
4.) "Harry Alonzo" couldn't have joined the Powder Springs Gang last winter (1896/97) Harry and Bert Charter were wintering the Reader Cattle at Reader Cabin Draw, and if they rustled them, Al Reader never said so.
5.) Bob Lee said he met Frank Scramble between Jan-June, 1897 at Cripple Creek, Colorado. Scramble can't be Harry because Harry was working for Al Reader during that time.
6.) If Galloway and Leahy went to Pierre (Deadwood?)
met with Roberts, alabied him to Temple and partner, why in the world would Roberts break jail? That makes no sense.
So, HCC, those are some more reasons why I just can't get past my notion --however misguided and silly --that Harry wasn't at Deadwood, that he didn't break jail, and that he wasn't Frank Scramble, Frank Roberts, or Frank Jones.
Help me out. Somebody throw me a life preserver, please.
4.) "Harry Alonzo" couldn't have joined the Powder Springs Gang last winter (1896/97) Harry and Bert Charter were wintering the Reader Cattle at Reader Cabin Draw, and if they rustled them, Al Reader never said so.
5.) Bob Lee said he met Frank Scramble between Jan-June, 1897 at Cripple Creek, Colorado. Scramble can't be Harry because Harry was working for Al Reader during that time.
6.) If Galloway and Leahy went to Pierre (Deadwood?)
met with Roberts, alabied him to Temple and partner, why in the world would Roberts break jail? That makes no sense.
So, HCC, those are some more reasons why I just can't get past my notion --however misguided and silly --that Harry wasn't at Deadwood, that he didn't break jail, and that he wasn't Frank Scramble, Frank Roberts, or Frank Jones.
Help me out. Somebody throw me a life preserver, please.
Kid Montana | 3:29 p.m. July 20, 2009
HCC:
if the photo of Sundance and Etta was stolen by the pinkerton out of the longabaugh family mail, was it the bliss or the deyoung photo?
if the photo of Sundance and Etta was stolen by the pinkerton out of the longabaugh family mail, was it the bliss or the deyoung photo?
Butch | 6:14 p.m. July 20, 2009
Driftwood:
I'm not sure that any evidence of Longabaugh returning to the U. S. in 1901 that is generated from or associated with Wagner will ever be dispositive. The reason for my belief is that Kilpatrick was identified as Longabaugh for a while. Thus, with Kilpatrick in the U. S., anyone who wishes to do so might argue that it was Kilpatrick whom people saw and identified as Longabaugh.
That said, don't you find it strange that the two men who had such different descriptions were confused? I do.
Do you think it possible that Steryl Roberts and his brother had their identities appropriated by "Frank Roberts" and "Tom Roberts"? If so, is it possible that this is the source of the confusion and can accounts for some --but not all-- of the confusion?
Just a thought. I'd appreciate your views.
I'm not sure that any evidence of Longabaugh returning to the U. S. in 1901 that is generated from or associated with Wagner will ever be dispositive. The reason for my belief is that Kilpatrick was identified as Longabaugh for a while. Thus, with Kilpatrick in the U. S., anyone who wishes to do so might argue that it was Kilpatrick whom people saw and identified as Longabaugh.
That said, don't you find it strange that the two men who had such different descriptions were confused? I do.
Do you think it possible that Steryl Roberts and his brother had their identities appropriated by "Frank Roberts" and "Tom Roberts"? If so, is it possible that this is the source of the confusion and can accounts for some --but not all-- of the confusion?
Just a thought. I'd appreciate your views.
Driftwood | 6:57 p.m. July 20, 2009
If the Bliss photo comes from the Library of Congress (Pinkerton Files) I would
say it is authentic. Being authentic we know it was taken in Buffalo. The only
time Harry went to Buffalo was when he went to the hospital there in the summer
of 1901. This means BS&E did not tour New York in Jan or Feb 1901 as all
the authors to date have written.
Driftwood | 7:47 p.m. July 20, 2009
The “Cody Enterprise” issue of July 11, 1901 gives only one name as one of the Wagner Robbers. That name was Longabaugh. But it has a description of all three robbers. Two were of medium height (Longabaugh and Curry) and the third robber was tall ( Kilpatrick)
In the Anaconda Standard issue of July 14, 1901 it gives two names, Longabaugh and Kid Curry. It also has a description of the robbers, which match Longabaugh, Curry and Kilpatrick.
The Longabaugh/Kilpatrick confusion happened latter in St Louis when Kilpatrick was arrested. He had a paper with the name Longabaugh written on it. The newspapers assumed he was Longabaugh. But at the time of the robbery there was no confusion. The robbers were Longabaugh, Curry and Kilpatrick. Hanks was holding the horses.
.
Butch | 11:30 a.m. July 21, 2009
Driftwood:
I think you make an excellent argument, and I hope it gets discussed on this blog. I'd like to make two points, although I don't have any idea how important they might be.
1,) I don't know that the Bliss version of the Photograph is in the Pinkerton files in LOC. I followed the web address given on this blog and found it in LOC scans. If the Bliss photo is in the LOC Pinkerton files, I flat missed it on my visits there. It might be there, I just didn't see it there.
2.) I'd appreciate you developing the date of summer 1901 for the Longabaugh alias Ethel Place visit to Buffalo. So far as I am aware, the summer 1901 date comes from Frank Dimaio's notebook entry found at Container 89, Folio 13, written post April 3, 1902, the date of the Philly Pinkerton mailcover on Samanna Longabaugh, which is where Dimaio's summer 1901 date comes from. I thought HCC did an exceptionally good job of explaining that entry. Perhaps you, HCC, and others will discuss this further. I hope so.
I think you make an excellent argument, and I hope it gets discussed on this blog. I'd like to make two points, although I don't have any idea how important they might be.
1,) I don't know that the Bliss version of the Photograph is in the Pinkerton files in LOC. I followed the web address given on this blog and found it in LOC scans. If the Bliss photo is in the LOC Pinkerton files, I flat missed it on my visits there. It might be there, I just didn't see it there.
2.) I'd appreciate you developing the date of summer 1901 for the Longabaugh alias Ethel Place visit to Buffalo. So far as I am aware, the summer 1901 date comes from Frank Dimaio's notebook entry found at Container 89, Folio 13, written post April 3, 1902, the date of the Philly Pinkerton mailcover on Samanna Longabaugh, which is where Dimaio's summer 1901 date comes from. I thought HCC did an exceptionally good job of explaining that entry. Perhaps you, HCC, and others will discuss this further. I hope so.
Horse Creek Cowboy | 1:02 p.m. July 21, 2009
Re Longabaugh at Wagner.
Both Charles Smith and William O'Neil, the express messenger and fireman respectively on the Flyer, positively identified one of the robbers as Longabaugh. Now the rest of the story:
Following the arrest of one of the robbers in St. Louis with possession of the stolen notes, on November 13m 1901, both travelled to St. Louis and positively identified the robber as Longabaugh whom they had identified as one of the participants in the robbery of the Flyer. The difficulty is that later the person they identified as Longabaugh turned out, upon identification by the Sheriff of Concho County to be (drum roll please) Ben Kilpatrick. The confusion is that no one in Wagner knew what Longabaugh or for that matter Kilpatrick looked like. For explanation see Salt Lake Herald, November 14, 1901. Kilpatrick later confessed.
Both Charles Smith and William O'Neil, the express messenger and fireman respectively on the Flyer, positively identified one of the robbers as Longabaugh. Now the rest of the story:
Following the arrest of one of the robbers in St. Louis with possession of the stolen notes, on November 13m 1901, both travelled to St. Louis and positively identified the robber as Longabaugh whom they had identified as one of the participants in the robbery of the Flyer. The difficulty is that later the person they identified as Longabaugh turned out, upon identification by the Sheriff of Concho County to be (drum roll please) Ben Kilpatrick. The confusion is that no one in Wagner knew what Longabaugh or for that matter Kilpatrick looked like. For explanation see Salt Lake Herald, November 14, 1901. Kilpatrick later confessed.
GUE | 1:05 p.m. July 21, 2009
Thanks, Butch, for the information on statute of limitations information. Puts a
few thing in perspective.
Colin Taylor | 1:16 p.m. July 21, 2009
Driftwood- Your assertion that HL was involved in the Wagner train robbery
surprises me. You quote two papers published eleven days after the robbery.
The only reason that HL was suspected of involvement was that he had perpetrated
a train robbery at virtually the same location nearly nine years before.
Newspapers then were about the same as they are today. No one is interested in
old news so---they tend to make stuff up. There is little indication that four
men were involved in the robbery. This came from a woman passenger who thought
she saw someone holding the horses on the south side of the train and from Walt
Coburn in his book where he states he remounted four horsebackers later the
evening of July 3rd. Three men were eventually caught with the money. Harvey
Logan in Knoxville, Ben Kilpatrick in St. Louis and O.C. Hanks was shot to death
in Flo Williams saloon in San Antonio, TX. CT
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