Reader comments
Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?
1,084 comments | Read story
Butch | 12:39 p.m. June 26, 2009
TCB:
Regarding "Butch" photographs. I think Anonymous is correct about both Butch and Harry photographs. Each of the accepted ones pre-date the San Vicente November 6, 1908 shootout. Each of the accepted photographs have been "sourced" by credible means such as penitentary records, Pinkerton files, or, in the case of the Cholila photographs, their appearance in Argentina. The early photographs of Butch are questioned because they can't be sourced. The early photographs of Harry, in the possession of the Longabaugh family, are undoubtedly authentic, but probably not of much use in settling the question of whether or not Butch and Harry survived SA.
Unless and until we can definatively determine who died at San Vicente on November 6, 1908, there will always be a cloud on any Pinkerton report or published sighting or photograph of either person that purports to be post November 6, 1908.
The same holds true for family or direct descendant statements that Butch or Harry did or did not survive SA. Lula Parker Betenson published her recollection that she saw Butch in 1925. Her recollection has been attacked on the basis that she had to be mistaken because "Butch died at San Vicente".
Continued
Regarding "Butch" photographs. I think Anonymous is correct about both Butch and Harry photographs. Each of the accepted ones pre-date the San Vicente November 6, 1908 shootout. Each of the accepted photographs have been "sourced" by credible means such as penitentary records, Pinkerton files, or, in the case of the Cholila photographs, their appearance in Argentina. The early photographs of Butch are questioned because they can't be sourced. The early photographs of Harry, in the possession of the Longabaugh family, are undoubtedly authentic, but probably not of much use in settling the question of whether or not Butch and Harry survived SA.
Unless and until we can definatively determine who died at San Vicente on November 6, 1908, there will always be a cloud on any Pinkerton report or published sighting or photograph of either person that purports to be post November 6, 1908.
The same holds true for family or direct descendant statements that Butch or Harry did or did not survive SA. Lula Parker Betenson published her recollection that she saw Butch in 1925. Her recollection has been attacked on the basis that she had to be mistaken because "Butch died at San Vicente".
Continued
tartan cowboy | 12:56 p.m. June 26, 2009
Mr anonymous:
I am well aware that there are only three "official"Butch photos,and you are seemingly saying this is definitive.History does throw out hitherto unknown gems from time to time i'm sure.if we discount any and all material because it doesn't fit with the party line then evolution on any level hits stasis.I'm sure you've forgotten more on this subject then i could ever discover and bow to your superior knowledge and therefor respectfully choose not to narrow the margins of possibility.Thankyou for your timely response.
Butch:
There's a lot going on there,need time to filter this through my not so quick mind.So post 1905 do BC/sk stay in SA together robbing payrolls and working at the concordia tine mines? Seems more likely SK would want to put a slug in his back if BC was instrumental in stealing five years of his life under house arrest!What then was the significance of the photographs of SK?Another weapon to frame him with? why the deyoung photo?What activities were they up to post 1908 and how far can you trail them into the century?
I am well aware that there are only three "official"Butch photos,and you are seemingly saying this is definitive.History does throw out hitherto unknown gems from time to time i'm sure.if we discount any and all material because it doesn't fit with the party line then evolution on any level hits stasis.I'm sure you've forgotten more on this subject then i could ever discover and bow to your superior knowledge and therefor respectfully choose not to narrow the margins of possibility.Thankyou for your timely response.
Butch:
There's a lot going on there,need time to filter this through my not so quick mind.So post 1905 do BC/sk stay in SA together robbing payrolls and working at the concordia tine mines? Seems more likely SK would want to put a slug in his back if BC was instrumental in stealing five years of his life under house arrest!What then was the significance of the photographs of SK?Another weapon to frame him with? why the deyoung photo?What activities were they up to post 1908 and how far can you trail them into the century?
Comments continue below
Butch | 12:59 p.m. June 26, 2009
Donna Ernst has twice published that Butch and Sundance died at San Vicente and
has been criticized on the basis that they were repeatedly seen alive after
1908, including Mrs. Betenson.
Never-the-less, I believe all research is valuable if only because even wrong answers are helpful in that they eliminate eroneous possiblities. Witness the blog from jimlyn. The Ethel Place I offered as a possibility has been eliminated. 1 down and countless others to go.
The same holds true for my Dumb Qestions. The questions are dumb all right, and therefore ought to have readily apparent answers. Those that do have answers can be eliminated from further consideration. If the answer isn't readily apparent, then perhaps we ought to look further at it.
Unfortunately whether Ms Betenson, Ms Ernst, Ms Meadows (yikes! The ladies really are smarter than us guys!) or Mr. Buck corageously go into print, an element of the public will discount their entire effort because, in their opinion, the conclusion is wrong. That is truly unfortunate, and seriously limits the evidence available to debate or discuss a point or attempt to answer a dumb question.
I'm happy to hear different opinions.
Never-the-less, I believe all research is valuable if only because even wrong answers are helpful in that they eliminate eroneous possiblities. Witness the blog from jimlyn. The Ethel Place I offered as a possibility has been eliminated. 1 down and countless others to go.
The same holds true for my Dumb Qestions. The questions are dumb all right, and therefore ought to have readily apparent answers. Those that do have answers can be eliminated from further consideration. If the answer isn't readily apparent, then perhaps we ought to look further at it.
Unfortunately whether Ms Betenson, Ms Ernst, Ms Meadows (yikes! The ladies really are smarter than us guys!) or Mr. Buck corageously go into print, an element of the public will discount their entire effort because, in their opinion, the conclusion is wrong. That is truly unfortunate, and seriously limits the evidence available to debate or discuss a point or attempt to answer a dumb question.
I'm happy to hear different opinions.
Butch | 1:14 p.m. June 26, 2009
TCB:
1.) If Harry put a slug into Butch he would eliminate his diplomatic protection and the gang at Little Snake would either send him to the pen or return the favor.
2.) I am of the opinion neither Butch nor Harry ever committed a crime anywhere in SA, Argentina, Chile, Bolivia, and Peru included. If they had they would have seriously jepordized the Cattle Venture and I think the consequences would have been most unpleasant for them. It isn't a good idea for your continued good health to mess with Big Boys like Diplomats, the Department of State, J. P. Morgan, Alsop & Company, Rothschilds, et al.
3.)Officially, the last word I have of Harry is the 1908 Pinkerton report placing him on the Little Snake with Bert Charter. From the description of his companion, I judge Elzy Lay to be with him, fresh from NM.
However, if you buy into the Etta Place I and II theory, "The Girl He Left Behind", well then, my friend, I would point you in the direction of one Harry Longabaugh, Jr. Find his real Mama and you will know what happened to Harry post 1908.
Continued .......
1.) If Harry put a slug into Butch he would eliminate his diplomatic protection and the gang at Little Snake would either send him to the pen or return the favor.
2.) I am of the opinion neither Butch nor Harry ever committed a crime anywhere in SA, Argentina, Chile, Bolivia, and Peru included. If they had they would have seriously jepordized the Cattle Venture and I think the consequences would have been most unpleasant for them. It isn't a good idea for your continued good health to mess with Big Boys like Diplomats, the Department of State, J. P. Morgan, Alsop & Company, Rothschilds, et al.
3.)Officially, the last word I have of Harry is the 1908 Pinkerton report placing him on the Little Snake with Bert Charter. From the description of his companion, I judge Elzy Lay to be with him, fresh from NM.
However, if you buy into the Etta Place I and II theory, "The Girl He Left Behind", well then, my friend, I would point you in the direction of one Harry Longabaugh, Jr. Find his real Mama and you will know what happened to Harry post 1908.
Continued .......
tartan cowboy | 1:18 p.m. June 26, 2009
Butch:
re photographs. I reiterate that i dont say that any unauthenticated photos are true images,but that any and all merit looking into.I agree that some photos of other outlaws are so obviously wrong that they are laughable,but when there is a resemblence further discussion may spark something.As i said I'm sure anonymous has forgotten more on this subject than i will ever find out he has my respect, i just feel intimating something is definitive is narrowing possibilities.
re photographs. I reiterate that i dont say that any unauthenticated photos are true images,but that any and all merit looking into.I agree that some photos of other outlaws are so obviously wrong that they are laughable,but when there is a resemblence further discussion may spark something.As i said I'm sure anonymous has forgotten more on this subject than i will ever find out he has my respect, i just feel intimating something is definitive is narrowing possibilities.
Butch | 1:18 p.m. June 26, 2009
Butch is easier. As far as the latest credible sighting, I'm inclined
toward 1941 simply because my opinion of State Troopers is very high and
I've found Mormons to be incredibly honest, straight forward people. When a
Mormon Utah State Trooper says he gave Butch Cassidy a warning ticket, I flat
out believe him, no questons asked.
Butch | 1:37 p.m. June 26, 2009
TCB:
The only possible purpose the Fort Worth Five or DeYong photographs served, as far as I can tell, was to help mark the trail of the Red Herring to TX and NY and provide a photo of his unforgettable traveling companion for Frank Dimaio to show to the steamship companies and banks in BA. Remember, other than Mr. Buck and Ms. Meadows' contention that Ethel robbed a bank in SA, she wasn't wanted for a crime, and since Mr. Buck and Ms. Meadows don't have authority to issue arrest warrants, I expect we will just have to accept the lady as law abiding.
I take the Cholila photos for what they appear to be: A rememberance of SA. They were never used to track the 3 amigos.
The only possible purpose the Fort Worth Five or DeYong photographs served, as far as I can tell, was to help mark the trail of the Red Herring to TX and NY and provide a photo of his unforgettable traveling companion for Frank Dimaio to show to the steamship companies and banks in BA. Remember, other than Mr. Buck and Ms. Meadows' contention that Ethel robbed a bank in SA, she wasn't wanted for a crime, and since Mr. Buck and Ms. Meadows don't have authority to issue arrest warrants, I expect we will just have to accept the lady as law abiding.
I take the Cholila photos for what they appear to be: A rememberance of SA. They were never used to track the 3 amigos.
Butch | 1:53 p.m. June 26, 2009
TCB:
I agree wholeheartedly that all purported photos ought to be looked at carefully. I also agree that, provided Butch and Harry survived SA, there ought to be a pile of photographs left to discover. Because I believe that Butch and Harry survived I believe that the present "definative" photos will be added to in quantity. My favorite for post 1908 photos are Butch on Horseback in Mexico, circa 1910.
I base my opinion on Mrs. Betenson's published letter collection.
For pre-1908 photos, my favorite is from Anne Goddard Charter of Butch, Standing Unknown, and Bert Charter. That one really interests me. However, I date the photo exactly one year earlier than the date given in her book. Mrs. Charter was very careful to say that the photo and it's provenance were supplied by another person. Mrs. Betenson was careful to say the same about the photo in her book. Both ladies were entirely responsible, and neither can be fairly attacked for including the photos in their respective books.
My bet is that as soon as the San Vicente question is settled both of these photos are accepted as authentic.
I agree wholeheartedly that all purported photos ought to be looked at carefully. I also agree that, provided Butch and Harry survived SA, there ought to be a pile of photographs left to discover. Because I believe that Butch and Harry survived I believe that the present "definative" photos will be added to in quantity. My favorite for post 1908 photos are Butch on Horseback in Mexico, circa 1910.
I base my opinion on Mrs. Betenson's published letter collection.
For pre-1908 photos, my favorite is from Anne Goddard Charter of Butch, Standing Unknown, and Bert Charter. That one really interests me. However, I date the photo exactly one year earlier than the date given in her book. Mrs. Charter was very careful to say that the photo and it's provenance were supplied by another person. Mrs. Betenson was careful to say the same about the photo in her book. Both ladies were entirely responsible, and neither can be fairly attacked for including the photos in their respective books.
My bet is that as soon as the San Vicente question is settled both of these photos are accepted as authentic.
Anonymous | 2:20 p.m. June 26, 2009
As far as the latest credible sighting, I'm inclined toward 1941 simply
because my opinion of State Troopers is very high and I've found Mormons to
be incredibly honest, straight forward people. When a Mormon Utah State Trooper
says he gave Butch Cassidy a warning ticket, I flat out believe him, no questons
asked.
It is pleasing to read this from Mr. Butch. I was fortunate to know the brother of a man who worked with the Utah Trooper you speak of. He said, Merrill (sp) never spoke anything but the truth. I have always thought this to be the most credible of all the "sighting stories". I don't believe Mr. Buck agrees.
The gentleman I speak of, now deceased, Bob J Nielson, lived and ranched in Vernal, Utah. A highly respected individual.
Mr. TC. Did not and will not, claim I know more than you or anyone. Just sharing some of what I believe to be an accepted fact of the "Cassidy" pictures. There are many, and much wiser than I, that also subscribe to this belief. Providing that and info on Kirby was just trying to help.
It is pleasing to read this from Mr. Butch. I was fortunate to know the brother of a man who worked with the Utah Trooper you speak of. He said, Merrill (sp) never spoke anything but the truth. I have always thought this to be the most credible of all the "sighting stories". I don't believe Mr. Buck agrees.
The gentleman I speak of, now deceased, Bob J Nielson, lived and ranched in Vernal, Utah. A highly respected individual.
Mr. TC. Did not and will not, claim I know more than you or anyone. Just sharing some of what I believe to be an accepted fact of the "Cassidy" pictures. There are many, and much wiser than I, that also subscribe to this belief. Providing that and info on Kirby was just trying to help.
Horse Creek Cowboy | 2:59 p.m. June 26, 2009
Re: Logan
The body was buried under the name J. H. Ross. Ross, however, was found alive and well. The body was also identified, in addition to Tap Duncan, as George W. Kendricks. After about a week, the body was placed in a cheap wooden casket, photos were taken from several different angles and body was positively identified by Denver Superinendent James McParland as Logan. That did not please William Pinkerton. Lowell Spence was sent to Colorado and the body was dug up on July 16. Present: Denver & Rio Grande agent R. Brunazi, Deputies Mohn and Crissman, Drs. Clark and McAllister. Spence identified the body as Logan. Railroad reps demurred.
From the photos, the Knoxville sheriff's office confirmed Logan. Arguments: If body that of Logan large awards were due. If not Logan, the railroads would not have to pay. William Pinkerton certainly know on what side his bread was buttered. Not withstanding Pinkerton's speculation, no reason for Knoxville people, McParland, or Spence to lie, no award for them. Body was allegedly too far decomposed to see if scars from Lavina or the bordello robbery were present. Scars are apparently in the eyes of the beholder.
The body was buried under the name J. H. Ross. Ross, however, was found alive and well. The body was also identified, in addition to Tap Duncan, as George W. Kendricks. After about a week, the body was placed in a cheap wooden casket, photos were taken from several different angles and body was positively identified by Denver Superinendent James McParland as Logan. That did not please William Pinkerton. Lowell Spence was sent to Colorado and the body was dug up on July 16. Present: Denver & Rio Grande agent R. Brunazi, Deputies Mohn and Crissman, Drs. Clark and McAllister. Spence identified the body as Logan. Railroad reps demurred.
From the photos, the Knoxville sheriff's office confirmed Logan. Arguments: If body that of Logan large awards were due. If not Logan, the railroads would not have to pay. William Pinkerton certainly know on what side his bread was buttered. Not withstanding Pinkerton's speculation, no reason for Knoxville people, McParland, or Spence to lie, no award for them. Body was allegedly too far decomposed to see if scars from Lavina or the bordello robbery were present. Scars are apparently in the eyes of the beholder.
tartan cowboy | 3:42 p.m. June 26, 2009
anonymous:
Apoligies if my response to you sounded if it was written with a sense of sarcasm this was not my intention.I am very pleased and thankful to more knowledgeable folk like yourself and Butch to share your research with the uninitiated like myself,and i appreciate the time you have taken to answer any of my largely uneducated questions. Once again, many thanks to you fine people across the pond for responding to a "lowland " scotsman who has more interest in you history than my own country.Mrs tartan cowboy says i was born in the wrong era.Maybe she should add the wrong continent to that statement!
Apoligies if my response to you sounded if it was written with a sense of sarcasm this was not my intention.I am very pleased and thankful to more knowledgeable folk like yourself and Butch to share your research with the uninitiated like myself,and i appreciate the time you have taken to answer any of my largely uneducated questions. Once again, many thanks to you fine people across the pond for responding to a "lowland " scotsman who has more interest in you history than my own country.Mrs tartan cowboy says i was born in the wrong era.Maybe she should add the wrong continent to that statement!
tartan cowboy | 4:06 p.m. June 26, 2009
Butch:
The 1910 photo of Butch on horseback in mexico,is this the one in the kirby book? The anne charter book i tried to buy online last week,but for some reason it couldn't be shipped to the uk.I would realy like to see the photo.Can it be viewed anywhere else?
Do you believe that the guy claiming to be Harry Longabaugh jr was the real deal?
Is the the butch cassidy smile in the fort worth photo the most enigmatic since the mona lisa?
You previously stated to me "are you aware of the five code if so let me know and we'll speak privately" how would this be possible?
The 1910 photo of Butch on horseback in mexico,is this the one in the kirby book? The anne charter book i tried to buy online last week,but for some reason it couldn't be shipped to the uk.I would realy like to see the photo.Can it be viewed anywhere else?
Do you believe that the guy claiming to be Harry Longabaugh jr was the real deal?
Is the the butch cassidy smile in the fort worth photo the most enigmatic since the mona lisa?
You previously stated to me "are you aware of the five code if so let me know and we'll speak privately" how would this be possible?
tartan cowboy | 4:14 p.m. June 26, 2009
Can anyone tell me how to pronounce Duchesne?
Butch | 4:48 p.m. June 26, 2009
TCB:
1.)Yes, I believe we are talking about the same photo of Butch on horseback.
2.) I don't know if Anne Goddard Charter's photo has been published elsewhere. I haven't seen it elsewhere, as far as I can remember.
3.) If you think, as I do, that there was Ethel Place I and Etta Place II, that Ethel Place I was the Harry The Red Herring phony love interest and Etta Place II was the real deal, then, Harry Jr might just be the real deal. Ms Ernst believes there is a strong family resemblance. Pearl Baker believed Harry Jr knew things that only an insider at Robbers Roost would know. Once again, I'll tip my Stetson to the ladies.
4.) Yep, it's Butch the Mona Lisa for sure. Grinin' like a split overshoe, ain't he?
5.) I think I said "four" code, or at least meant to. O. K. The Key To Rebecca. Comprende?
1.)Yes, I believe we are talking about the same photo of Butch on horseback.
2.) I don't know if Anne Goddard Charter's photo has been published elsewhere. I haven't seen it elsewhere, as far as I can remember.
3.) If you think, as I do, that there was Ethel Place I and Etta Place II, that Ethel Place I was the Harry The Red Herring phony love interest and Etta Place II was the real deal, then, Harry Jr might just be the real deal. Ms Ernst believes there is a strong family resemblance. Pearl Baker believed Harry Jr knew things that only an insider at Robbers Roost would know. Once again, I'll tip my Stetson to the ladies.
4.) Yep, it's Butch the Mona Lisa for sure. Grinin' like a split overshoe, ain't he?
5.) I think I said "four" code, or at least meant to. O. K. The Key To Rebecca. Comprende?
Anonymous | 4:52 p.m. June 26, 2009
Can anyone tell me how to pronounce Duchesne?
I believe it is close to .... Du Shane
I believe it is close to .... Du Shane
Anonymous | 5:00 p.m. June 26, 2009
The 1910 photo of Butch on horseback in mexico,is this the one in the kirby
book? The anne charter book i tried to buy online last week,but for some reason
it couldn't be shipped to the uk.I would realy like to see the photo.Can it
be viewed anywhere else?
Mr. TC. I have two new copies of COWBOYS DON'T WALK, by Mrs. Charter. If you can get me your address, I will be glad to mail you one. Not sure how you wish to do that. If Jerry Nickle still has his website up, possibly you can contact him and he knows how to reach me. Again, just trying to help.
Bob Jayne
Mr. TC. I have two new copies of COWBOYS DON'T WALK, by Mrs. Charter. If you can get me your address, I will be glad to mail you one. Not sure how you wish to do that. If Jerry Nickle still has his website up, possibly you can contact him and he knows how to reach me. Again, just trying to help.
Bob Jayne
Butch | 5:06 p.m. June 26, 2009
Horse Creek Cowboy:
Yes, you've correctly stated the argument of those who think Harvey Logan was the dead robber --the Pinkertons sided with their railroad clients to avoid having the railroads pay the reward. The fact remains that into 1910 and right up to the present the Agency's official position is it isn't Harvey. I think William was right in 1904. It ain't Harvey.
William was struck by the similarity of the photos of the corpse to the image of Harvey Logan. I believe there is a very good explanation for the similarity of the likeness between the corpse and Harvey Logan: The dead robber was a Logan, just not Harvey Logan.
DNA will tell us for sure. Now if you're willing to man a shovel with me, maybe we can talk Mr. Buck out of his D. C. Townhouse and into doing an honest days work in CO. I'm sure he'd enjoy the change of pace. Even Mr. Buck can't screw this one up. If its Harvey we have a great story. Same thing if it isn't him. Redemption for San Vicente?
Yes, you've correctly stated the argument of those who think Harvey Logan was the dead robber --the Pinkertons sided with their railroad clients to avoid having the railroads pay the reward. The fact remains that into 1910 and right up to the present the Agency's official position is it isn't Harvey. I think William was right in 1904. It ain't Harvey.
William was struck by the similarity of the photos of the corpse to the image of Harvey Logan. I believe there is a very good explanation for the similarity of the likeness between the corpse and Harvey Logan: The dead robber was a Logan, just not Harvey Logan.
DNA will tell us for sure. Now if you're willing to man a shovel with me, maybe we can talk Mr. Buck out of his D. C. Townhouse and into doing an honest days work in CO. I'm sure he'd enjoy the change of pace. Even Mr. Buck can't screw this one up. If its Harvey we have a great story. Same thing if it isn't him. Redemption for San Vicente?
jimlyn | 5:11 p.m. June 26, 2009
Butch:
I responded to your blog, but it never saw the light of day ao if you will email me, I'll try to fill in the blanks.lynchjl@yahoo.com
I responded to your blog, but it never saw the light of day ao if you will email me, I'll try to fill in the blanks.lynchjl@yahoo.com
Anonymous | 5:12 p.m. June 26, 2009
Do-shane
Anonymous | 5:14 p.m. June 26, 2009
We need some more pictures to compare. For those that are fortunate enough to
have ANNE GODDARD CHARTER'S book COWBOYS DON'T WALK, look on page 56,
low right hand corner. With all due respect, is that a picture of Etta, without
make up? Both are lovely ladies. And the "watch", what do you say?
Butch | 5:22 p.m. June 26, 2009
TCB:
I urge you to follow up on Bob's suggestion to contact Jerry. Jerry has all our addresses. I'm not sure you want to join this gang. We're all really disreputable --and old. Golly are we old.
I urge you to follow up on Bob's suggestion to contact Jerry. Jerry has all our addresses. I'm not sure you want to join this gang. We're all really disreputable --and old. Golly are we old.
TM | 6:16 p.m. June 26, 2009
A comment to all...I'm still here and enjoying everyone's
contributions. I continue to be amazed by all the related stories and the
mysteries. My thanks to all that share. More Please!
tartan cowboy | 5:10 a.m. June 27, 2009
Anonymous/Bob:
thankyou so very much for your kind offer i believe i will try and take you up on that.If i can find jerry's web site i'll try and contact yourself and Butch.Again i wasn't suggesting you were by any way blowing your own trumpet,i was making a statement.I believe credit where it's due.If you "oldies" are as long in the tooth as you say an approaching middle aged pilgrim like myself can only benefit from your wisdom.Some cultures look upon their elders as being sagely.As it should be.
Butch:
Harry jr said,according to the Kirby book,was a school teacher named Anna Marie thayne and that Etta was in factHazel Tryon.Has yor research flagged anything on these names?Given that he,Harry junior,came out in 1970,a year after the movie,it seems a bit convenient that he says she was a school teacher.Or maybe the movie hit on at least some of the legend.He also seems to have some fanciful ideas like his father killing 28 men,holding caches of guns for them and a pallbearer at BC funeral.
thankyou so very much for your kind offer i believe i will try and take you up on that.If i can find jerry's web site i'll try and contact yourself and Butch.Again i wasn't suggesting you were by any way blowing your own trumpet,i was making a statement.I believe credit where it's due.If you "oldies" are as long in the tooth as you say an approaching middle aged pilgrim like myself can only benefit from your wisdom.Some cultures look upon their elders as being sagely.As it should be.
Butch:
Harry jr said,according to the Kirby book,was a school teacher named Anna Marie thayne and that Etta was in factHazel Tryon.Has yor research flagged anything on these names?Given that he,Harry junior,came out in 1970,a year after the movie,it seems a bit convenient that he says she was a school teacher.Or maybe the movie hit on at least some of the legend.He also seems to have some fanciful ideas like his father killing 28 men,holding caches of guns for them and a pallbearer at BC funeral.
Horse Creek Cowboy | 8:27 a.m. June 27, 2009
Re: Folowup on Logan:
I don't know that the Pinkerton's position was that it wasn't Logan. Pinkerton in his report to the Bankers did indicate that the body had been identified as Logan, but he had doubts. I do not suggest that Pinkerton expressed doubt merely to stiff the posse of their just due. Since there was doubt, it would be more than embarrassing to identify the body as Logan, pay the rewards and two weeks later to have another train robbery with the same M.O. Mr. Harriman would be unhappy.
Circumstantial evidence also points to the body being Logan. The train robbers (as are all criminals) are creatures of habit. They go back to their wicked ways. Witness Ben Kilpatrick. We simply do not hear from Harvey again (unless he was Duffy).
How long to get court orders in Garfield County and obtain Logan DNA. If it was another Logan, DNA might be inconclusive. If another, who?
I don't know that the Pinkerton's position was that it wasn't Logan. Pinkerton in his report to the Bankers did indicate that the body had been identified as Logan, but he had doubts. I do not suggest that Pinkerton expressed doubt merely to stiff the posse of their just due. Since there was doubt, it would be more than embarrassing to identify the body as Logan, pay the rewards and two weeks later to have another train robbery with the same M.O. Mr. Harriman would be unhappy.
Circumstantial evidence also points to the body being Logan. The train robbers (as are all criminals) are creatures of habit. They go back to their wicked ways. Witness Ben Kilpatrick. We simply do not hear from Harvey again (unless he was Duffy).
How long to get court orders in Garfield County and obtain Logan DNA. If it was another Logan, DNA might be inconclusive. If another, who?
Butch | 9:25 a.m. June 27, 2009
TCB:
I haven't found a thing on Anna Marie Thayne or Hazel Tyron, and if they ever existed I expect it was only in Harry, Jr's alcohol enveloped wet brain. I think if you track Harry Jr what you will find is that his real Mama, whom he never knew, farmed the infant out to distant relatives to raise, Mama being seriously underage. I think you will find that Harry, Jr spent the rest of his life looking for Mama.
The people who raised Harry, Jr. had some knowledge of Harry Sr and better knowledge of Mama, of course.
Again, we can remove all doubt. Sharpen your shovel, convince Mr. Buck and Ms Meadows to join the posse, and let's dig up Harry , Jr and compare his DNA to Longabaugh's. More Redemption for having botched San Vicente so badly. Mr Buck, weilding a shovel for the second time, will have begun to acquire the basics of a skill more suited to his accumen than researcher --Ditch Digger -- a noble, albeit under-appreciated profession perfectly suited to Mr Buck's limited abilities.
I haven't found a thing on Anna Marie Thayne or Hazel Tyron, and if they ever existed I expect it was only in Harry, Jr's alcohol enveloped wet brain. I think if you track Harry Jr what you will find is that his real Mama, whom he never knew, farmed the infant out to distant relatives to raise, Mama being seriously underage. I think you will find that Harry, Jr spent the rest of his life looking for Mama.
The people who raised Harry, Jr. had some knowledge of Harry Sr and better knowledge of Mama, of course.
Again, we can remove all doubt. Sharpen your shovel, convince Mr. Buck and Ms Meadows to join the posse, and let's dig up Harry , Jr and compare his DNA to Longabaugh's. More Redemption for having botched San Vicente so badly. Mr Buck, weilding a shovel for the second time, will have begun to acquire the basics of a skill more suited to his accumen than researcher --Ditch Digger -- a noble, albeit under-appreciated profession perfectly suited to Mr Buck's limited abilities.
Butch | 9:58 a.m. June 27, 2009
Horse Creek Cowboy:
Your statement that we don't hear from Harvey after 1904 is valid only if you discount Siringo's account of chasing Harvey after a 1908 NM bank job, and only if you discount the receipt of the letter from Jim Ferguson. I, for one am unwilling to do either.
The new reason you offered for William's reluctance to accept the Knoxville identifications-- because the identification was in doubt-- is a tautology exactly the same as Mr. Buck saying after the San Vicente fiasco: "I guess we dug in the wrong spot."
The youth of today have an expression that I believe applies to your statement as well as that of Mr. Buck: "Duh!"
How about a friendly wager of T-bone steaks grilled in the most Green offensive manner we can devise (charcoal?) that DNA comparisons show:
1) It isn't Harvey
2) It is a man with the last name of Logan
Because Mr Buck and Ms Meadows really ought to be in attendance, we can provide Tofu, Alfalfa Sprouts and Soy Milk if they wish. Western Hospitality for D. C. denizens?
Your statement that we don't hear from Harvey after 1904 is valid only if you discount Siringo's account of chasing Harvey after a 1908 NM bank job, and only if you discount the receipt of the letter from Jim Ferguson. I, for one am unwilling to do either.
The new reason you offered for William's reluctance to accept the Knoxville identifications-- because the identification was in doubt-- is a tautology exactly the same as Mr. Buck saying after the San Vicente fiasco: "I guess we dug in the wrong spot."
The youth of today have an expression that I believe applies to your statement as well as that of Mr. Buck: "Duh!"
How about a friendly wager of T-bone steaks grilled in the most Green offensive manner we can devise (charcoal?) that DNA comparisons show:
1) It isn't Harvey
2) It is a man with the last name of Logan
Because Mr Buck and Ms Meadows really ought to be in attendance, we can provide Tofu, Alfalfa Sprouts and Soy Milk if they wish. Western Hospitality for D. C. denizens?
Anonymous | 10:21 a.m. June 27, 2009
Dont you guys go in the back room and carry on this discussion. Have the
discussion here so the rest of can benefit.
Anonymous | 11:54 a.m. June 27, 2009
Daniel Sinclair and Ann Campbell had 11 children among the children were 2
daughters: Annabella and Jane
Jane Campbell married Robert Gillies and had a daughter named Annie
Annie married Maximillian Parker and had a son named Robert LeRoy Parker a.k.a. Butch Cassidy.
Annabella Campbell married John Mcfarlane they had a son named John Menzies Mcfarlane
John Menzies McFarlane married Agnes E. Heyborne they had a daughter named Sarah Ann Mcfarlane
Sarah Ann Mcfarlane married Henry George Mathis they had a son named Murray Mathis
Murray Mathis married Helen Neilsen they had a daughter named Ann Mathis
Ann Mathis married Lee Thayn they had a daughter named Annalee
A few comments ago, someone had comments or a question about a name. I finally understood the bell I heard ringing. I met Annalee in Green River, Utah. She works at the Johb Wesley Powell Museum there. At our first meeting, she mentioned she was a relative of Butch Cassidy. Of course we did have a doubt or two. A few weeks after returning home, she was kind enough to send the above. Hopefully to some, it will be of interest.
Bob Jayne
Jane Campbell married Robert Gillies and had a daughter named Annie
Annie married Maximillian Parker and had a son named Robert LeRoy Parker a.k.a. Butch Cassidy.
Annabella Campbell married John Mcfarlane they had a son named John Menzies Mcfarlane
John Menzies McFarlane married Agnes E. Heyborne they had a daughter named Sarah Ann Mcfarlane
Sarah Ann Mcfarlane married Henry George Mathis they had a son named Murray Mathis
Murray Mathis married Helen Neilsen they had a daughter named Ann Mathis
Ann Mathis married Lee Thayn they had a daughter named Annalee
A few comments ago, someone had comments or a question about a name. I finally understood the bell I heard ringing. I met Annalee in Green River, Utah. She works at the Johb Wesley Powell Museum there. At our first meeting, she mentioned she was a relative of Butch Cassidy. Of course we did have a doubt or two. A few weeks after returning home, she was kind enough to send the above. Hopefully to some, it will be of interest.
Bob Jayne
Butch | 12:58 p.m. June 27, 2009
Bob:
When I looked for "Anna Marie Thayne" the only people I could find showing up in census or phone books were either in SLC, 1941, and following, California, 1938, or Scotland, 1891. It certainly is possible that Anna Marie Thane was out of the country prior to 1938 and that is the reason no census or directory picked her up. The problem I have with that is we don't have any evidence that Harry, Jr. was out of the country before 1938, when he would have been approximately 37 years old. Each of the women I just listed appear to be single so.... Any thoughts on this?
When I looked for "Anna Marie Thayne" the only people I could find showing up in census or phone books were either in SLC, 1941, and following, California, 1938, or Scotland, 1891. It certainly is possible that Anna Marie Thane was out of the country prior to 1938 and that is the reason no census or directory picked her up. The problem I have with that is we don't have any evidence that Harry, Jr. was out of the country before 1938, when he would have been approximately 37 years old. Each of the women I just listed appear to be single so.... Any thoughts on this?
tartan cowboy | 4:10 p.m. June 27, 2009
Butch:
re the trips back and forth from SA was the transport that SK/ep took more luxurious than the H/N/N safety routes? if not then i whole heartedly agree that the mode of transport is highly suspicious. if not then maybe the reasons for returning are of a more personal nature.Didn't the pinkertons think that ethel had relatives in Texas?
RE the fort worth photograph.I can understand the theory of SK being coeeced into the photo for establishing red herring duty, but what of the others? we know BC image was already out there from the laramie mug shot. How did he persuade the other three to have their photo taken? where their photos already in circulation?
There was also some talk of harry being a "lunger how accurate is this?
I have contacted Jerry nickle and hope to have your And Bob's email address soon.
re the trips back and forth from SA was the transport that SK/ep took more luxurious than the H/N/N safety routes? if not then i whole heartedly agree that the mode of transport is highly suspicious. if not then maybe the reasons for returning are of a more personal nature.Didn't the pinkertons think that ethel had relatives in Texas?
RE the fort worth photograph.I can understand the theory of SK being coeeced into the photo for establishing red herring duty, but what of the others? we know BC image was already out there from the laramie mug shot. How did he persuade the other three to have their photo taken? where their photos already in circulation?
There was also some talk of harry being a "lunger how accurate is this?
I have contacted Jerry nickle and hope to have your And Bob's email address soon.
Anonymous | 5:09 p.m. June 27, 2009
TC, an e/m was sent to you a few hours ago.
Sadly I have nothing of value to add to the Annalee Thayn comments. A few years ago I sent her information to a friend in Casper, Wyoming, who has a wealth of information on these subjects. One of his replies, I believe mentioned how the Thayn/Thayne names were very common in that area and they go back a long time. I am sure I put his comments away so I would know exactly where they were. I am afraid I may have put them with the "Utah coin" that I recall someone mentioning a little earlier. If I stumble onto them, I will gladly share.
BJ
Sadly I have nothing of value to add to the Annalee Thayn comments. A few years ago I sent her information to a friend in Casper, Wyoming, who has a wealth of information on these subjects. One of his replies, I believe mentioned how the Thayn/Thayne names were very common in that area and they go back a long time. I am sure I put his comments away so I would know exactly where they were. I am afraid I may have put them with the "Utah coin" that I recall someone mentioning a little earlier. If I stumble onto them, I will gladly share.
BJ
Anonymous | 5:33 p.m. June 27, 2009
Speaking of pictures, I have always been fascinated by the appearance of the
foot attire worn by Sundance, Ben and Butch in the Ft. Worth picture. I am sure
a younger, smarter brain has already answered this but... Sundance appears to be
wearing a pair of laceup, dress shoes, that appear to be in terrible shape.
Unshined and badly scuffed. Ben is wearing similiar shoes, but they look new
and very shiny. Old Butch looks as though he just rode in. He has normal, very
used looking, squared toe western (cowboy) boots on. Can't see the feet of
Carver or Logan. Can see the "pinky" ring on Carver's left hand,
and the flower in Logan's lapel. Makes me think they all did not arrive on
the same bus.
BJ
BJ
Horse Creek Cowboy | 7:55 p.m. June 27, 2009
Butch:
in April there was fully discussed the question of the reliability of Charlie Siringo.
You have cited the National Bureau of Identification as proof that Curry was alive and well after Parachute. The Bureau in 1910 indicated that Curry is "suppoed to be a member of a band that operated extensively in Argentina for four years." See Washinton Herald p. 12, 1910. In my search for Logan, I have gone through almost all national newspapers for the period 1903 to 1910. The Washington Herald item is the only article I could find that suggested that Logan was still alive. All other national newspapers concluded that Curry committed suicide at Parachute. If Logan was in Argentina, where does that leave your sightings? Sightings are not reliable. Dan has noted the widely reported "sighting" of Ringo Star at the Tradewinds Saloon in St. Augustine, Fl. Elvis is routinely seen.
In April, before I left for Orkney for the month, we all agreed not to be so insulting. I don't know how it is in Utah, but in Wyoming Western Hospitality does not include gratuitous insults. The constant, unrelenting, vacuous attacks upon Mr. Buck are wearisome.
in April there was fully discussed the question of the reliability of Charlie Siringo.
You have cited the National Bureau of Identification as proof that Curry was alive and well after Parachute. The Bureau in 1910 indicated that Curry is "suppoed to be a member of a band that operated extensively in Argentina for four years." See Washinton Herald p. 12, 1910. In my search for Logan, I have gone through almost all national newspapers for the period 1903 to 1910. The Washington Herald item is the only article I could find that suggested that Logan was still alive. All other national newspapers concluded that Curry committed suicide at Parachute. If Logan was in Argentina, where does that leave your sightings? Sightings are not reliable. Dan has noted the widely reported "sighting" of Ringo Star at the Tradewinds Saloon in St. Augustine, Fl. Elvis is routinely seen.
In April, before I left for Orkney for the month, we all agreed not to be so insulting. I don't know how it is in Utah, but in Wyoming Western Hospitality does not include gratuitous insults. The constant, unrelenting, vacuous attacks upon Mr. Buck are wearisome.
Anonymous | 8:41 p.m. June 27, 2009
"The constant, unrelenting, vacuous attacks upon Mr. Buck are
wearisome."
Is it possible Mr. HCC, that Mr. Buck has brought your above mentioned comments upon himself by what he says to those that choose to not agree with him? There are numerous other so-called historians that do not receive comments like what you describe. Ever wonder why? Is he getting some of his own medicine?
The comments may not be as vacuous as you imply and could possibly be most fitting and well deserved.
Another opinion.
Is it possible Mr. HCC, that Mr. Buck has brought your above mentioned comments upon himself by what he says to those that choose to not agree with him? There are numerous other so-called historians that do not receive comments like what you describe. Ever wonder why? Is he getting some of his own medicine?
The comments may not be as vacuous as you imply and could possibly be most fitting and well deserved.
Another opinion.
Anonymous | 9:10 p.m. June 27, 2009
"I don't know how it is in Utah, but in Wyoming Western Hospitality
does not include gratuitous insults." Mr. HCC says..........
As I believe Mr. Buck resides in Washington D C, maybe he should consider moving to your Wyoming, you then could teach him some courtesy.
BC
As I believe Mr. Buck resides in Washington D C, maybe he should consider moving to your Wyoming, you then could teach him some courtesy.
BC
Anonymous | 9:35 p.m. June 27, 2009
HCC
Mr. Buck charges those that do not agree with his analysis of certain photographs of having the vision of Mr. Magoo. Do you consider the Magoo comparison insulting?
Mr. Buck charges those that do not agree with his analysis of certain photographs of having the vision of Mr. Magoo. Do you consider the Magoo comparison insulting?
Anonymous | 10:04 p.m. June 27, 2009
Just my opinion, but it appears Mr. Buck uses Saul Alinskys Rules For Radicals.
Instead of respectfully discussing the subject with those he disagrees with, he
ridicules them. I for one would like to see Mr. Buck join the discussion.
Surely by now he understands that no one will tolerate his insults.
Anonymous | 10:17 p.m. June 27, 2009
If Charlie Siringo is unreliable why does Mr. Buck refer to Siringo as
Pinkertons ace detective.
Anonymous | 11:34 p.m. June 27, 2009
Darn it HCC, just when we were starting to get some enjoyment from this, you
have to come along and try to dig up Dan Buck. Now we have two that we really
don't have any need for, Mr. Zimmer and Mr. Buck.
If it isn't broken, don't try and fix it.
"If Charlie Siringo is unreliable why does Mr. Buck refer to Siringo as Pinkertons ace detective." Was just asked.....Probably for the same reason he refers to himself, as "The Foremost Authority".
Shall we carry on?
If it isn't broken, don't try and fix it.
"If Charlie Siringo is unreliable why does Mr. Buck refer to Siringo as Pinkertons ace detective." Was just asked.....Probably for the same reason he refers to himself, as "The Foremost Authority".
Shall we carry on?
Butch | 6:04 a.m. June 28, 2009
HCC:
The only value that the Bureau of Identification's belief that Logan survived 1904 has is that it's refusal to believe Harvey died can be added to Pinkertons. The question at issue is whether Harvey died in 1904 after the Parachute/Rifle robbery, not whether he went to SA or was or was not Gold Teeth Duffy.
This particular type of non-debate debate technique is called "deflection" and attempts to draw the jury's attention away from the issue and onto extraneous and irrelevant material. I suggest you stop trying to divert attention from the issue and take the issue head on.
Now, I've called you out on this issue, suggested that we partner up on getting a couple of sets of human remains above ground, and do a DNA two step. I don't know what you call an offer of partnership in your neck of the woods, but in mine the offer of partnership is considered a great compliment, and an acknowledgement that the partner is a person of quality and great worth. What exactly is your problem? Squemish? O. K. Don't look. I will.
The only value that the Bureau of Identification's belief that Logan survived 1904 has is that it's refusal to believe Harvey died can be added to Pinkertons. The question at issue is whether Harvey died in 1904 after the Parachute/Rifle robbery, not whether he went to SA or was or was not Gold Teeth Duffy.
This particular type of non-debate debate technique is called "deflection" and attempts to draw the jury's attention away from the issue and onto extraneous and irrelevant material. I suggest you stop trying to divert attention from the issue and take the issue head on.
Now, I've called you out on this issue, suggested that we partner up on getting a couple of sets of human remains above ground, and do a DNA two step. I don't know what you call an offer of partnership in your neck of the woods, but in mine the offer of partnership is considered a great compliment, and an acknowledgement that the partner is a person of quality and great worth. What exactly is your problem? Squemish? O. K. Don't look. I will.
Butch | 6:23 a.m. June 28, 2009
Anonymous:
Since we've been challenged to be fair and respectful to Mr. Buck, would you consider refering to him by his self-proclaimed title of "Completist"? Meadows, Digging, Page 260. My spell check puts a squiggley red line under that word, but it must be legitimate since Ms Meadows got it in print as applied to Mr Buck so it simply must be a real word.
I take it that a "Compleatist" is complete in his presentation of all relevant material on any issue, and if so, then we ought to assume that Mr. Buck, the Compleatist, has either made a compleat presentation of the San Vicente issue or completely screwed it up. Which do you think the Compleatist did?
Since we've been challenged to be fair and respectful to Mr. Buck, would you consider refering to him by his self-proclaimed title of "Completist"? Meadows, Digging, Page 260. My spell check puts a squiggley red line under that word, but it must be legitimate since Ms Meadows got it in print as applied to Mr Buck so it simply must be a real word.
I take it that a "Compleatist" is complete in his presentation of all relevant material on any issue, and if so, then we ought to assume that Mr. Buck, the Compleatist, has either made a compleat presentation of the San Vicente issue or completely screwed it up. Which do you think the Compleatist did?
Anonymous | 7:29 a.m. June 28, 2009
"I take it that a "Compleatist" is complete in his presentation
of all relevant material on any issue, and if so, then we ought to assume that
Mr. Buck, the Compleatist, has either made a compleat presentation of the San
Vicente issue or completely screwed it up. Which do you think the Compleatist
did?"
To be brief, he "did" prove he did not know what he was talking about and since his "did dug" all his efforts have been generated in trying to prove (even though he was "dead" wrong) that he was right and all remaining energy is used to show how the rest of the world is wrong. Any energies that might be left over, of course are used to scare away or insult any member of an outlaw's family. (they might show where Mr. Buck is less than accurate and truthfull)
If you can't whip em, and they won't let you join em, then the only path left is to run em down with insults.
1 of many anoniemice
To be brief, he "did" prove he did not know what he was talking about and since his "did dug" all his efforts have been generated in trying to prove (even though he was "dead" wrong) that he was right and all remaining energy is used to show how the rest of the world is wrong. Any energies that might be left over, of course are used to scare away or insult any member of an outlaw's family. (they might show where Mr. Buck is less than accurate and truthfull)
If you can't whip em, and they won't let you join em, then the only path left is to run em down with insults.
1 of many anoniemice
Horse Creek Cowboy | 1:12 p.m. June 28, 2009
Butch:
Thank you for the offer. Just one minor glitch. Have you checked with the Colorado Historic Society? Under Section 24-80-401 et seq. of the Colorado Revised Statutes, excavation will require a permit from the Society. The qualifications are set forth in Section 24-80-406. I doubt that either of us qualify. Until a permit is obtain, we are spitting into the wind.
Mr Anonymous needs to read Frothingham's "Temple of Virtue" beginning at page 138 where he writes:
"Many of us believe, with more or less ex- plicitness, in the right of meeting injury with injury, insult with insult, wrong with wrong. We claim the right of giving back as goodor, as we had better say, as bad as we receive. This is only justice, we declare." He continues with a discussion of the great thinkers of history on the subject.
Thank you for the offer. Just one minor glitch. Have you checked with the Colorado Historic Society? Under Section 24-80-401 et seq. of the Colorado Revised Statutes, excavation will require a permit from the Society. The qualifications are set forth in Section 24-80-406. I doubt that either of us qualify. Until a permit is obtain, we are spitting into the wind.
Mr Anonymous needs to read Frothingham's "Temple of Virtue" beginning at page 138 where he writes:
"Many of us believe, with more or less ex- plicitness, in the right of meeting injury with injury, insult with insult, wrong with wrong. We claim the right of giving back as goodor, as we had better say, as bad as we receive. This is only justice, we declare." He continues with a discussion of the great thinkers of history on the subject.
An observation | 1:27 p.m. June 28, 2009
"Mr Anonymous needs to read Frothingham's "Temple of Virtue"
beginning at page 138 where he writes:
"Many of us believe, with more or less ex- plicitness, in the right of meeting injury with injury, insult with insult, wrong with wrong. We claim the right of giving back as goodor, as we had better say, as bad as we receive. This is only justice, we declare."
Maybe HCC, Mr. Annonymous simply believes in standing up for what is right. In today's world, we may wish we had more of his attitude.
"Many of us believe, with more or less ex- plicitness, in the right of meeting injury with injury, insult with insult, wrong with wrong. We claim the right of giving back as goodor, as we had better say, as bad as we receive. This is only justice, we declare."
Maybe HCC, Mr. Annonymous simply believes in standing up for what is right. In today's world, we may wish we had more of his attitude.
Butch | 2:01 p.m. June 28, 2009
HCC:
You're welcome. In this Wild Bunch thing, a man needs as many partners as he can get. I've got confidence that between the two of us and with the help of our pals on this blog and elsewhere, we can gin up enough interest to have CHS back our play. Several Colleges and Universities in CO have some wonderful archeology departments that should have an interest in the project. In addition to that, in these tough economic times, I expect the small Colorado towns involved could use a few extra dollars the project should generate. Why not invite CO film schools to film the dig and have the students bring the background story to life? Why not get local museum's involved? If there is enough public interest and if we can make a case that CO will benefit economically, it is better than an even money bet a CO politician will get behind our project. When that happens, the improbable becomes a done deal. In fact, I'll wager my Chrysler shares the Government just bought me that we can get this done. The same arguments ought to apply to Big Sky Country.
You're welcome. In this Wild Bunch thing, a man needs as many partners as he can get. I've got confidence that between the two of us and with the help of our pals on this blog and elsewhere, we can gin up enough interest to have CHS back our play. Several Colleges and Universities in CO have some wonderful archeology departments that should have an interest in the project. In addition to that, in these tough economic times, I expect the small Colorado towns involved could use a few extra dollars the project should generate. Why not invite CO film schools to film the dig and have the students bring the background story to life? Why not get local museum's involved? If there is enough public interest and if we can make a case that CO will benefit economically, it is better than an even money bet a CO politician will get behind our project. When that happens, the improbable becomes a done deal. In fact, I'll wager my Chrysler shares the Government just bought me that we can get this done. The same arguments ought to apply to Big Sky Country.
Horse Creek Cowboy | 2:24 p.m. June 28, 2009
Butch
A good starting place then will be the Garfield County Historic Society. Perhaps KUED who produced a program on the Outlaw Trail. Gave equal time to both sides of the Butch controvery. Even Dan with his connections might be interested.
I will be out of country again for part of September, but like Butch I will return.
A good starting place then will be the Garfield County Historic Society. Perhaps KUED who produced a program on the Outlaw Trail. Gave equal time to both sides of the Butch controvery. Even Dan with his connections might be interested.
I will be out of country again for part of September, but like Butch I will return.
Butch | 2:41 p.m. June 28, 2009
HCC:
That's the ticket. I think you've got great suggestions as starting points. Perhaps you can get Mr Buck interested in the project. I'll see what I can do about getting the "It isn't Harvey" argument down on paper. Of course, I feel obligated to give the argument and supporting data for my candidate in the grave. You might want to do the same on your research. We might very well generate some interest on the part of local newspapers --Deseret News?-- in serializing the debate, our respective articles, and our progress in getting the project off the ground.
That's the ticket. I think you've got great suggestions as starting points. Perhaps you can get Mr Buck interested in the project. I'll see what I can do about getting the "It isn't Harvey" argument down on paper. Of course, I feel obligated to give the argument and supporting data for my candidate in the grave. You might want to do the same on your research. We might very well generate some interest on the part of local newspapers --Deseret News?-- in serializing the debate, our respective articles, and our progress in getting the project off the ground.
Anonymous | 6:20 p.m. June 29, 2009
Someone mentioned the different conditions of the footwear of the three
gentlemen in the front row of the Ft. Worth picture. I also think that is
interesting, with all the talent displayed here, someone should have an answer.
At least an opinion.
Thank you.
A Question
Thank you.
A Question
Butch | 6:16 a.m. June 30, 2009
Anonymous:
My opinion is that Harry's shabby footwear is consistent with his declaration to David Gillespie on or about November 1, 1900, that he was substantially broke, not having enough money to both repay the loan from Gillespie and afford a nights lodging at McIntosh's Slater complex. The Fort Worth Five photograph was taken approximately 21 days after the Slater meeting with Gillespie.
However, in the DeYoung Photograph, Harry has shined, possibly new, lace-up footwear. That is consistent with the thought that when "Ethel" is "in the picture" so to speak, Harry's life style takes a decided turn upward. The DeYoung photograph was taken between February 1 and February 19, 1901.
My opinion, of course, is by no means "proof" of anything. I submit, however, my opinion is consistent with what we know, or think we know, about Harry's changing fortunes, and his willingness to be photographed after his October, 1897, refusal to be photographed.
Good question, thanks for asking it. We might get different opinions from others. Like you, I'm very interested in the topic.
My opinion is that Harry's shabby footwear is consistent with his declaration to David Gillespie on or about November 1, 1900, that he was substantially broke, not having enough money to both repay the loan from Gillespie and afford a nights lodging at McIntosh's Slater complex. The Fort Worth Five photograph was taken approximately 21 days after the Slater meeting with Gillespie.
However, in the DeYoung Photograph, Harry has shined, possibly new, lace-up footwear. That is consistent with the thought that when "Ethel" is "in the picture" so to speak, Harry's life style takes a decided turn upward. The DeYoung photograph was taken between February 1 and February 19, 1901.
My opinion, of course, is by no means "proof" of anything. I submit, however, my opinion is consistent with what we know, or think we know, about Harry's changing fortunes, and his willingness to be photographed after his October, 1897, refusal to be photographed.
Good question, thanks for asking it. We might get different opinions from others. Like you, I'm very interested in the topic.
Add your comment
Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.
Words Remaining
E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.
- Packers beat Ravens, 27-14 11:23 p.m.
- 'Ham' operator helps with rescue 11:23 p.m.
- Guv taps atty to be general counsel 11:22 p.m.
- Refinery will make flares quieter 11:20 p.m.
- Trio Da Paz serves up plenty of heat 11:18 p.m.
- BCS reform still needed 11:15 p.m.
- Opposition to soccer complex 11:15 p.m.
- Vietnam vet finally gets Purple Heart 11:13 p.m.
- Winter weather is here to stay 11:11 p.m.
- UTA seeking to acquire 6 sites 11:11 p.m.
- Cougars going back to Vegas
- Utah/BYU rivalry can be more civil
- TCU to play Boise in Fiesta Bowl
- Y. profs: Beck not all-knowing
- Bring the true spirit of Christmas
- Witness: Mitchell stalked victims
- Utes excited to go to San Diego
- BYU professor remembered
- Answers for the BCS
- Winter weather is here to stay
- Letters: Liberal because LDS
278 - Y. profs: Beck not all-knowing260
- TCU to play Boise in Fiesta Bowl203
- Letters: Global warming a lie152
- Cougars going back to Vegas146
- Utah/BYU rivalry can be more civil134
- George lost in rivalry hatefest119
- Ed Smart 'appalled' at testimony100
- Harpring's NBA career is over96
- Utahns want health care reform bills78
For the latest news in the health care debate and how it affects you...
Amazon.com, Target.com, Sears.com, Walmart.com, Kmart.com and...
Latest comments
You Zoobs amaze me. We might not understand football but we do know that...
Couldn't ask for a much better matchup then this one, going against Oregon...
Go Jazz!! Awesome game to watch!
None of the global warming models predicted steady or slightly-decreasing...
to oops!: Because it's not. Clearly you don't know the definition of...
I'm guessing as the season rolls on, USU's wings will feel more comfortable...
All year long I have read numerous complaints from MWC fans that BSU didn't...
at least it will be nice to see boise get killed by a real team, they play...
BSU may beat TCU so lets no get too confident about TCU just yet. I would...
I moved here from Maryland about a year ago and was surprised that the taxes...
Advertisements
Thank you. Of course the family's wishes should be respected, and I pledge to do so. Merely for the purpose of avoiding any further intrusion on the family's privacy, I would like to know if I ought to avoid the other "Ethel Place" and "Charles Place" names in NY circa 1900 that fit the 1879-1880 and 1845-1950 birth dates? For the same purpose, can you tell me if the "Ethel Place" listed as a nurse on the 1910 census is the Ethel Place who did not become a nurse until 1911? Is this the same person? Several of the "Ethel Place" names, with appropriate birthdates appear later as married women, which would fit Ms. Ernst's discovery of "Mrs. E. Place" as opposed to an unmarried person.
Please convey my sincere apologies to the family.