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Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?
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Big Bird | 3:39 p.m. Feb. 18, 2009
All these negative and postitive comments are interesting. To those who add
documentable evidence, thank you. Here's hoping the truth will come out and
the family can settle down knowing the truth about their family history.
Knowing the identity and what happened to our historical legends
helps to bring a fitting conclusion to the story of Sundance. And it appears to me the story is about Sundance, not Robert LeRoy Parker AKA Butch Cassidy.
helps to bring a fitting conclusion to the story of Sundance. And it appears to me the story is about Sundance, not Robert LeRoy Parker AKA Butch Cassidy.
Jerry Nickle | 4:24 p.m. Feb. 18, 2009
Bob
At 7:54 AM this morning you entered �William Long was born ca.1867-1867� Are you telling me now ca 1860-1867? You are the one that is confused. I assumed ca 1867-1867 was correct because you typed it. This is an example why all references should be verified.
I suggest you read the article again. He was 27 in 1894 when he was married. With a little math you can determine he was born in 1867.
Where is your evidence that your William Henry Long was ever in Utah? He was never in Utah. I would guess your man lived in Texas by just using you unverified sources.
I don�t have to prove anything to you or your sidekick and I don�t care what you believe. This is not a court of law, this is a court of public opinion. I will go to the public with my evidence. Most of the public believes Butch and Sundance returned home. Your sidekick never proved they were killed in Bolivia and has already lost the argument without my evidence.
At 7:54 AM this morning you entered �William Long was born ca.1867-1867� Are you telling me now ca 1860-1867? You are the one that is confused. I assumed ca 1867-1867 was correct because you typed it. This is an example why all references should be verified.
I suggest you read the article again. He was 27 in 1894 when he was married. With a little math you can determine he was born in 1867.
Where is your evidence that your William Henry Long was ever in Utah? He was never in Utah. I would guess your man lived in Texas by just using you unverified sources.
I don�t have to prove anything to you or your sidekick and I don�t care what you believe. This is not a court of law, this is a court of public opinion. I will go to the public with my evidence. Most of the public believes Butch and Sundance returned home. Your sidekick never proved they were killed in Bolivia and has already lost the argument without my evidence.
Comments continue below
AC | 5:15 p.m. Feb. 18, 2009
"Jerry - as a message to you - to "prove" that William Henry Long
was Harry Longabaugh is going to be tough because the burden of proof is on you.
To prove your point you have to not only make an acceptable argument concerning
William Long, but you also have to prove all other possible explanations are
false, with documentation that is irrefutable, with a preponderance of evidence
to support your case, much like in a court of law." ---sayeth ghosttownbob
GTB, you are getting familiar, I seem to recall you had your opinions, when I think we met in Hanksville, UT sometime ago. Why don't we allow Mr. Nickle the opportunity to make a fool of himself, as other "noted" historians have already done. (besides, he might be right) You mention " a court of law". I know things aren't like they used to be but does the jury now reach a verdict, before all the evidence is in? Come on Butch, the Foremost Authority, had his chance, don't you want to be fair and a gentleman, and give Mr. Nickle his?
GTB, you are getting familiar, I seem to recall you had your opinions, when I think we met in Hanksville, UT sometime ago. Why don't we allow Mr. Nickle the opportunity to make a fool of himself, as other "noted" historians have already done. (besides, he might be right) You mention " a court of law". I know things aren't like they used to be but does the jury now reach a verdict, before all the evidence is in? Come on Butch, the Foremost Authority, had his chance, don't you want to be fair and a gentleman, and give Mr. Nickle his?
LDS in TN | 8:49 p.m. Feb. 18, 2009
AC, Jerry, Bob and anyone else interested.
This has been a really fun and ridiculous arguement. Even my earlier comments have to be taken with a big lump of salt.
The truth is that no one here is argueing as a trained historian. No real historian has ever proven anything. There is one major reason for that.
Historians never try to prove anything. They know that any "proof" they present can and probably will be disproven when more evidence comes to light. Historical proof is a vain ambition and anyone who claims to have proven anything in history is indulging in vanity.
Of course those of us who indulge ourselves with the study of history do go overboard at times.
You know, I just remembered something. This isn't a historical treatise. It is a newspaper report. How did all of us lose track of that in our vain ambition to prove that we each are right.
I believe that there is a good chance that Butch and the Kid died peacefully as old men. But I never get tired of remembering Newman and Redford running hellbent for leather into the face of the Bolivian army.
This has been a really fun and ridiculous arguement. Even my earlier comments have to be taken with a big lump of salt.
The truth is that no one here is argueing as a trained historian. No real historian has ever proven anything. There is one major reason for that.
Historians never try to prove anything. They know that any "proof" they present can and probably will be disproven when more evidence comes to light. Historical proof is a vain ambition and anyone who claims to have proven anything in history is indulging in vanity.
Of course those of us who indulge ourselves with the study of history do go overboard at times.
You know, I just remembered something. This isn't a historical treatise. It is a newspaper report. How did all of us lose track of that in our vain ambition to prove that we each are right.
I believe that there is a good chance that Butch and the Kid died peacefully as old men. But I never get tired of remembering Newman and Redford running hellbent for leather into the face of the Bolivian army.
Gaylen Robison | 10:46 p.m. Feb. 18, 2009
Hey Ghosttown Bob, that William Henry Long that you said was born in 1865, came
to Iowa, then to Wyoming where he worked as a teamster, joined the Army, later
deserted the Army, drifted from Texas to Utah and married Luzernia Allred. Do
you have a picture of that guy?
Ghosttown Bob | 8:15 a.m. Feb. 19, 2009
Jerry - about the 1867-1867 comments I think you are nit-picking here. This was
a typo. I meant 1857-1867. I think you knew that but chose to criticize anyway.
When I read your reply I thought you had made a typo and was trying to
respectfully point out what I thought was a correction.
As for your age 27 (1867) comment, yes I can count. William Long stated his age as 27 when he was married in 1894, this would calculate his birth year as 1867, hence: "age 27 (1867)."
Now, to Dyslexia Bob: Column 1, page B8 of the Utah section fourth paragraph down of the printed edition it says: "Oct 24, 1910." In the context of this article, and the previous one in December, this "typo" would make it appear that the shooting incident occurred after Jerry claims that Sundance returned from So. America which is a misrepresentation and needs a correction from the News. If it was a typo, and not intentional, then the copy editor should have caught it. You seem very adept at catching errors.
As for your age 27 (1867) comment, yes I can count. William Long stated his age as 27 when he was married in 1894, this would calculate his birth year as 1867, hence: "age 27 (1867)."
Now, to Dyslexia Bob: Column 1, page B8 of the Utah section fourth paragraph down of the printed edition it says: "Oct 24, 1910." In the context of this article, and the previous one in December, this "typo" would make it appear that the shooting incident occurred after Jerry claims that Sundance returned from So. America which is a misrepresentation and needs a correction from the News. If it was a typo, and not intentional, then the copy editor should have caught it. You seem very adept at catching errors.
Jerry Nickle | 8:30 a.m. Feb. 19, 2009
Bob
How about his militray record while your at it. Lets see thtt
How about his militray record while your at it. Lets see thtt
Jerry Nickle | 8:57 a.m. Feb. 19, 2009
The books that have been written by the so-called experts are full of reported evidence that supports their opinions. The only way the public can verify what these people have written is true is get the alleged authentic records themselves. These so called experts know the public will not go to the expense and effort to do that. I did go take the effort and spent the money to acquire the records that actually existed. I discovered the experts have distorted and ignored what the records state. And some of the their sources records do not exist such as the three 1901 South American documents.
There are other records that are off limits for pier review because they are private family records. How convenient. I will make my family available for pier review if they make their records available.
They know we will never see the actual records ourselves and they have assumed until now they can get away with.
I challenge them PRODUCE THOSE RECORDS for pier review.
Jerry Nickle | 9:04 a.m. Feb. 19, 2009
If the experts had to prove their case in a court of law, they would do a little
jail time.
Granny T. | 9:32 a.m. Feb. 19, 2009
Bottom line is that the "Outlaws", Butch and Sundance", robbed
and plundered and then spent the money on booze and women. Kind of like today
when cheesy druggies rob banks to support their heroine addiction. Not really a
pretty picture or story but Robert Redford and Paul Newman were very good
looking 'in the day' and had great sense of humors. So we continue to
build the legend and stories that make them and what they did OK. I love the
stories too but then I liken them to the robbers now and get a much different
feeling.
Marilyn Grace | 11:22 a.m. Feb. 19, 2009
How Fun! Jerry Nickle, Mike Karr, Dr. John McCullough and yours truly have
solved the mystery. We have the science and you cannot argue with science. We
will continue to update you. Thanks to Etta, Diann, Jerry, Gaylen, Betty,
Yvonne, and all the family members that have helped us solve the mystery. There
is more to come. Thank you Geoff for doing such a great job of telling the
facts of the story. It is my wish and prayer that everyone will stop fighting
and start loving the fact that two families will come together that never knew
they existed. Florence Viola Long and Evinda Ann Long never knew who their
grandparents were or any of their relatives. They are the lost children on the
Longabaugh geneology. Now they have roots and so do their children and
grandchildren. Family! That is really what this is all about! Not fighting!
The Florence Viola letter asks, who is my father? He was the Sundance Kid!
Much Love and respect,
On behalf of Jerry Nickle the Executive Producer, Mike Karr the Producer / Director, and Dr. John McCullough the Forensic Anthropologist.
Marilyn Grace
Creative Executive Producer of the "Sundance Kid" documentary.
Much Love and respect,
On behalf of Jerry Nickle the Executive Producer, Mike Karr the Producer / Director, and Dr. John McCullough the Forensic Anthropologist.
Marilyn Grace
Creative Executive Producer of the "Sundance Kid" documentary.
Jerry Nickle | 11:55 a.m. Feb. 19, 2009
LDS in Tn
Please understand my credibility is at stake here and it is priceless, I don't have much to worry about though.
Jerry
.
Please understand my credibility is at stake here and it is priceless, I don't have much to worry about though.
Jerry
.
Anonymous | 2:19 p.m. Feb. 19, 2009
Ghosttown Bob,
Lets see if youve done the research? Julia Ann Long Parkers daughter died in Salt Lake City, Utah.
Can you tell me what her name was?
Lets see if youve done the research? Julia Ann Long Parkers daughter died in Salt Lake City, Utah.
Can you tell me what her name was?
Ghosttown Bob | 2:49 p.m. Feb. 19, 2009
To Gaylen concerning your "facts"
Fact # 1 No dispute here - all well are established.
Fact # 2 Since I have never seen said picture I cannot comment on it except, does this picture still exist? How is it identified as Samanna & Emma Longabaugh? Does it say so on the picture? Or are we taking your word for it? Are they little or grown up??? Thanks for making such an unsubstantiated statement.
Fact # 3 False: Samanna's daughters were Adella, Emma, and Bertha, not Elva, Viola and???
Fact # 4 So?? So Harry Longabaugh had a nephew named William Henry, so did at least 100,000 other people in the 1900 census, what does that prove? They are all related to William Long?
Fact # 5 the "Sundance Kid" was an alias for Harry Longabaugh. Now, where have I heard this before?
Fact # 1 No dispute here - all well are established.
Fact # 2 Since I have never seen said picture I cannot comment on it except, does this picture still exist? How is it identified as Samanna & Emma Longabaugh? Does it say so on the picture? Or are we taking your word for it? Are they little or grown up??? Thanks for making such an unsubstantiated statement.
Fact # 3 False: Samanna's daughters were Adella, Emma, and Bertha, not Elva, Viola and???
Fact # 4 So?? So Harry Longabaugh had a nephew named William Henry, so did at least 100,000 other people in the 1900 census, what does that prove? They are all related to William Long?
Fact # 5 the "Sundance Kid" was an alias for Harry Longabaugh. Now, where have I heard this before?
Jerry Nickle | 4:56 p.m. Feb. 19, 2009
You do like to nit pick. The outlaws generally picked an alias that was
associated with something or someplace or someone they knew. Harry Longabaugh
was in jail in Sundance Wyoming. Harvey Logans used the alias Kid Curry: his
mentor was George Curry. Butch Cassidy was a Butcher for a time; Mike Cassidy
was the first outlaw he followed.
William Henry Longabaugh was Harry longabaughs nephew. Isnt it an amazing coincidence our William Henry Long used practically the same name and was an outlaw? (I am still waiting for you to connect your William Henry Long to ours. Please hurry) Harry Longabaughs niece was Florence the daughter of Harrys brother Harvey. We do not have a Florence in our genealogy at all before Florence Viola, Bill Longs daughter. Another coincidence
William Henry Longabaugh was Harry longabaughs nephew. Isnt it an amazing coincidence our William Henry Long used practically the same name and was an outlaw? (I am still waiting for you to connect your William Henry Long to ours. Please hurry) Harry Longabaughs niece was Florence the daughter of Harrys brother Harvey. We do not have a Florence in our genealogy at all before Florence Viola, Bill Longs daughter. Another coincidence
Anonymous | 5:02 p.m. Feb. 19, 2009
Bob
You do like to nit pick.
The outlaws generally picked an alias that was associated with something or someplace or someone they knew. Harry Longabaugh was in jail in Sundance Wyoming. Harvey Logans used the alias Kid Curry: his mentor was George Curry. Butch Cassidy was a Butcher for a time; Mike Cassidy was the first outlaw he followed.
William Henry Longabaugh was Harry longabaughs nephew. Isnt it an amazing coincidence our William Henry Long used practically the same name and was an outlaw? (I am still waiting for you to connect your William Henry Long to ours. Please hurry) Harry Longabaughs niece was Florence the daughter of Harrys brother Harvey. We do not have a Florence in our genealogy at all before Florence Viola, Bill Longs daughter. Another coincidence
You do like to nit pick.
The outlaws generally picked an alias that was associated with something or someplace or someone they knew. Harry Longabaugh was in jail in Sundance Wyoming. Harvey Logans used the alias Kid Curry: his mentor was George Curry. Butch Cassidy was a Butcher for a time; Mike Cassidy was the first outlaw he followed.
William Henry Longabaugh was Harry longabaughs nephew. Isnt it an amazing coincidence our William Henry Long used practically the same name and was an outlaw? (I am still waiting for you to connect your William Henry Long to ours. Please hurry) Harry Longabaughs niece was Florence the daughter of Harrys brother Harvey. We do not have a Florence in our genealogy at all before Florence Viola, Bill Longs daughter. Another coincidence
Anonymous | 6:34 p.m. Feb. 19, 2009
Ghosttown Bob,
Perhaps Julias daughter was to hard. Lets try this one, Henry S. and Julia Long Parker of Cheyenne, Laramie County, Wyoming had two grandchildren, who died in Salt Lake City, Utah, within the last twenty years. If you cant name them, then you have not done the necessary research needed to make the claim that William Long deserted the Army in 1893, roamed around the West a few years, eventually ending up in Utah.
Census Fact: 1860 census: There where 88 William Longs born between 1850 and 1860, in Pennsylvania, there where 605 William Longs nationally. 1870 census: There were 89 William Longs born between 1855 and 1865, in Pennsylvania, there were 607 William Longs nationally. 1880 census: There where 797 William Longs born between 1865 and 1875 nationally, 113 in Pennsylvania.
Perhaps Julias daughter was to hard. Lets try this one, Henry S. and Julia Long Parker of Cheyenne, Laramie County, Wyoming had two grandchildren, who died in Salt Lake City, Utah, within the last twenty years. If you cant name them, then you have not done the necessary research needed to make the claim that William Long deserted the Army in 1893, roamed around the West a few years, eventually ending up in Utah.
Census Fact: 1860 census: There where 88 William Longs born between 1850 and 1860, in Pennsylvania, there where 605 William Longs nationally. 1870 census: There were 89 William Longs born between 1855 and 1865, in Pennsylvania, there were 607 William Longs nationally. 1880 census: There where 797 William Longs born between 1865 and 1875 nationally, 113 in Pennsylvania.
Jerry Nickle | 6:47 p.m. Feb. 19, 2009
Bob
Bob
#1 No dispute here.
#2 Are we supossed to take your word for it that your William Henry Long was our William Henry Long without documentation?
#3 Two of Samannas daughters were named Emma ELVA and Bertha VIOLA. Why did you leave the names Elva and Viola of your post? Did you do that intentionally? Those names are not in our family genealogy. They are longabaugh family names. Why did Bill Long name his daughter Florence Viola, both Longabaugh family names? Why did he name his granddaughter Elva, another Longabaugh family name? Why did he himself use a Longabaugh family name? Dont you recognize the amazing coincidence? Or did he use those names intentionally?
The experts have distorted and played similar games with the Pinkerton files.
#4 Yes your right there were thousands of William Henrys Including your and ours, two different men
#5You probably heard Sundance Kid was the alias for Harry Longabaugh here first.
Come on do a little better
Jerry
Bob
#1 No dispute here.
#2 Are we supossed to take your word for it that your William Henry Long was our William Henry Long without documentation?
#3 Two of Samannas daughters were named Emma ELVA and Bertha VIOLA. Why did you leave the names Elva and Viola of your post? Did you do that intentionally? Those names are not in our family genealogy. They are longabaugh family names. Why did Bill Long name his daughter Florence Viola, both Longabaugh family names? Why did he name his granddaughter Elva, another Longabaugh family name? Why did he himself use a Longabaugh family name? Dont you recognize the amazing coincidence? Or did he use those names intentionally?
The experts have distorted and played similar games with the Pinkerton files.
#4 Yes your right there were thousands of William Henrys Including your and ours, two different men
#5You probably heard Sundance Kid was the alias for Harry Longabaugh here first.
Come on do a little better
Jerry
Jerry Nickle | 9:27 p.m. Feb. 19, 2009
I have received several emails asking if we have the results of the DNA tests
yet. We do not have the results yet.
Jerry
Jerry
Ghosttown Bob | 7:53 a.m. Feb. 20, 2009
Jerry (Anonymous): I don't know what Florence has to do with all of this. I
would think you would be more interested in finding out what happened to Julia
Ann and finding her obituary. Oh, by the way, if we are playing the family name
game William Long's niece was Florence too, what a coincidence, Oh and
wait, Julia's middle name was Ann, wow, another coincidence. Oh, and
another one, in the 1900 census there were 76950 Violas and 16799 Elvas, they
must all be related too. I don't see how any of this has to do with
connecting William Long with Harry Longabaugh, either you have the evidence or
you don't. Your the one that has to prove the relationship.
Ghosttown Bob | 7:58 a.m. Feb. 20, 2009
Jerry: Hey did you hear that Donna Ernst's new book is coming out on
Sunday? It might be interesting to see what she has to say. I understand that
she sides with you that Harry Longabaugh was not involved with the Belle Fourche
robbery. It might be interesting to see what her reasoning is.
Ghosttown Bob | 8:06 a.m. Feb. 20, 2009
#1 No dispute here
#2 You expect me to take Gaylen's word without documentation, where's your's?
#3 Middle names for children who died at birth, how convenient.
#4 And your point? Name association is a game.
#5 The use of the Alias of "Sundance Kid" for Harry Longabaugh has been around longer than you have been, but using that alias for William Long, well now that is recent.
#2 You expect me to take Gaylen's word without documentation, where's your's?
#3 Middle names for children who died at birth, how convenient.
#4 And your point? Name association is a game.
#5 The use of the Alias of "Sundance Kid" for Harry Longabaugh has been around longer than you have been, but using that alias for William Long, well now that is recent.
Ghosttown Bob | 8:33 a.m. Feb. 20, 2009
Now about the DNA results, Marilyn should never have said that you'all had
"solved the mystery" and "We have the science and you cannot
argue with science." Jerry, you don't have the results of the DNA
tests yet. You do not have the science.My sources tell me that poor Dr.
McCullough was unable to get enough Y-chromosome DNA to make a direct match. So
now the family is scrambling around trying to locate female descendants of the
Longabaugh family willing to give DNA sample for mitochondrial DNA testing. Of
course this is going to be extremely difficult since all of Longabaugh's
nieces either died without children. The may have to go back to the 1700's
to trace someone down.
Now just how much DNA did Dr. McCullough need for a Y-Chromosome test. Sorensen will do as little as an 11 marker test. A skull, a femur, or whatever else Dr. McCullough took out this last time wasn't enough? This seems like inconclusive results to me. Or were they negative?? Which by the way I predicted back on Dec. 18th.
Now just how much DNA did Dr. McCullough need for a Y-Chromosome test. Sorensen will do as little as an 11 marker test. A skull, a femur, or whatever else Dr. McCullough took out this last time wasn't enough? This seems like inconclusive results to me. Or were they negative?? Which by the way I predicted back on Dec. 18th.
Anonymous | 9:35 a.m. Feb. 20, 2009
Ghosttown Bob | 7:58 a.m. Feb. 20, 2009
Gillespie and Gooldy
Gillespie and Gooldy
Jerry Nickle | 10:24 a.m. Feb. 20, 2009
You have no idea what we are doing.
Anonymous | 10:35 a.m. Feb. 20, 2009
Ghosttown Bob,
I see no difference between your claim that you can prove William Long of Fayette County, Pennsylvania and William Henry Long of Duchesne, Utah are one and the same, and Jerry Nickles claim, that William Henry Long of Duchesne, Utah and Harry Longabaugh are one and the same, unless you feel Harry Longabaugh has celebrity status, because of the published articles that have been written about Harry Longabaugh. When you posted/published your article about William Long on the blog, your William Long of Fayette County, Pennsylvania, therefore achieved the same celebrity status, and just as Mr. Nickle is obligated to provide proof, you are also, now obligated by your claim to provide proof.
Either you have the evidence or you don't. Your the one that has to prove the relationship.
I see no difference between your claim that you can prove William Long of Fayette County, Pennsylvania and William Henry Long of Duchesne, Utah are one and the same, and Jerry Nickles claim, that William Henry Long of Duchesne, Utah and Harry Longabaugh are one and the same, unless you feel Harry Longabaugh has celebrity status, because of the published articles that have been written about Harry Longabaugh. When you posted/published your article about William Long on the blog, your William Long of Fayette County, Pennsylvania, therefore achieved the same celebrity status, and just as Mr. Nickle is obligated to provide proof, you are also, now obligated by your claim to provide proof.
Either you have the evidence or you don't. Your the one that has to prove the relationship.
Anonymous | 11:10 a.m. Feb. 20, 2009
Ghosttown Bob, doesnt know what the hes talking about. He concocted a story
about William Long based solely on the 1880 census and the Army records for
William Long. From the 1860 census he found they were living in Fayette County,
Pennsylvania. Figured by placing William Long in Wyoming it makes his story more
believable. All hes trying to do is discredit Nickle. No matter what the DNA
results say, they are laying the ground work to create doubt, they must be
worried. Can you imagine what will happen if the DNA comes back positive.
Jerry Nickle | 12:46 p.m. Feb. 20, 2009
Bob
Anonymous has discovered your army deserter was not Bill Long as you hoped. Sorry. So try again. Let me help you
Dan Buck made some very important discoveries that show Butch and Sundance were not killed in Bolivia. He found the Aramayo robbers that were killed at San Vacente and exhumed their remains for a scientific examination. The robbers were not Butch and Sundance. One was Enrique B. Hutcheon (Buck 269) and the other was Gustave Zimmer. They both died of gunshots. (Buck302). With Mr Bucks discoveries and the Pinkerton files (Memo dated Mar 22, 1909 and memo dated mar 26, 1910) we know Butch and Sundance returned home to the United States. Mr. Buck deserves a pat on the Back for his discoveries. Thank you Mr. Buck.
Bob, because your deserter has failed you, here is a list of suggestions for you to discover where Sundance went and what identity he assumed.
Jerry Nickle | 12:47 p.m. Feb. 20, 2009
1We know this person rode with Butch Cassidy. Try and find some document that
mentions Butch Cassidy and someone else that was associated Butch. This narrows
your research considerably. Newspaper articles are good sources.
#2. Look for a person that used an alias. Research the alias to see if it is a dead end. This is the first thing you want to do.
#3 If this person was Sundance he would have tried to hide his real identity and thats why you found a dead end.
#4 Determine if the alias he used had a relationship to someplace or somebody in Sundancess history, maybe his Longabaugh family. Research his descendants to see if their names have a connection.
#5 If this person had a picture of Sammana and Emma Longabaugh hanging on his living room wall or someone he believed was Sammana and Emma. That would be very good.
#2. Look for a person that used an alias. Research the alias to see if it is a dead end. This is the first thing you want to do.
#3 If this person was Sundance he would have tried to hide his real identity and thats why you found a dead end.
#4 Determine if the alias he used had a relationship to someplace or somebody in Sundancess history, maybe his Longabaugh family. Research his descendants to see if their names have a connection.
#5 If this person had a picture of Sammana and Emma Longabaugh hanging on his living room wall or someone he believed was Sammana and Emma. That would be very good.
Jerry Nickle | 12:48 p.m. Feb. 20, 2009
#6 Try and find his obituary and see if there is a connection there. Maybe it
will mention Wyoming or better yet the Big Basin of Wyoming. Of course we know
Butch and Sundance were very familiar with Wyoming and the Big Hole Basin.
#7 Search for a document that would show he was born in 1867 like Sundance was. If your candidate was born in early part of 1867, that would be even better because we know Sundance was a 1867 spring baby.
#8 If there is a photograph of your subject and it resembles Sundance thats very good.
#9 Interview the subjects family and find out if they believe he was an outlaw that rode with Butch Cassidy and if they have any outlaw stories. Maybe some of the family is mentioned in Kellys book such as Jerry Jackson on page 150.
This is just a partial list of suggestions. I could possibly give more if you would like.
No need to thank me I am glad to do it.
Maybe your sidekick expert will come out from hiding and help you.
Sincerely Yours
Jerry
#7 Search for a document that would show he was born in 1867 like Sundance was. If your candidate was born in early part of 1867, that would be even better because we know Sundance was a 1867 spring baby.
#8 If there is a photograph of your subject and it resembles Sundance thats very good.
#9 Interview the subjects family and find out if they believe he was an outlaw that rode with Butch Cassidy and if they have any outlaw stories. Maybe some of the family is mentioned in Kellys book such as Jerry Jackson on page 150.
This is just a partial list of suggestions. I could possibly give more if you would like.
No need to thank me I am glad to do it.
Maybe your sidekick expert will come out from hiding and help you.
Sincerely Yours
Jerry
Jerry Nickle | 1:12 p.m. Feb. 20, 2009
Sundance was not one of Belle Fourche bank robbers so Donna Ernst is correct. I
received a notice this morning they shipped my copy. I hope this one comes
autographed like the last one did. Maybe this one will have my name not some
cousin I dont even know. I hope this new interest in Sundance, I have created,
will help Donna Ernsts book sales. When the documentary is released that should
help her book sales too.
Ghosttown Bob | 1:20 p.m. Feb. 20, 2009
Ahh Anonymous you seem to know so much, even what I am thinking. I think you
ought to do a stage show. You can call yourself the "Great Anon Y
Mouse." Now, seriously, I came on here after Jerry came out saying that all
he wanted to do was help his family find their roots. Which I gather is
originally what some of his Aunts were interested in. I have given a plausible
case of who William Long was in hopes of helping the family. Now all of this
vitriol comes out because certain family members are hoping to make a bundle of
cash and fame over this. Now I am not particularly opposed to this if they can
prove their case, but they haven't, and I don't think they will. Their
case relies solely on the DNA evidence which appears to have some of the family
worried, otherwise why the mad dash for a mitochondrial DNA test? Everything
else is only conjecture. Anonymous, by attacking me you are diverting attention
from the main issue.
We've been down this same road before with Hiram Beebe and Harry Longabaugh Jr.
We've been down this same road before with Hiram Beebe and Harry Longabaugh Jr.
Ghosttown Bob | 1:38 p.m. Feb. 20, 2009
Jerry, I know you won't believe it, but I agree with you when you said:
"The experts have distorted and played similar games with the Pinkerton
files." This has been going on for quite some time. Yes I personally know
of misrepresentations of both the Pinkerton files and of some other sources that
have been used. This seems to have been standard practice of some researchers in
earlier days in an attempt to protect their sources. These misrepresentations
have been subsequently passed down as fact. Maybe after this has all calmed down
and decided one way or the other we can get together and collaborate on a
project that I have been working on, which you have given me a great idea of a
title for. I think I will title it: "The Odd Case of Butch, Sundance, and
the Wild Bunch: The use and misuse of the of the Pinkerton Detective
Files."
Cats | 2:28 p.m. Feb. 20, 2009
Dan Buck is the guy I talked to a few years ago who was so sure that Butch and
Sundance died in Bolivia. He was also the one who thought that Butch's
sister was lying, or at least wrong, about her brother returning to the U.S. Is
that true that he has now changed his position? Does he now believe that Butch
did return to the U.S.? If so, that is quite a change from the position he took
when I spoke to him. He said that even though the bodies they exumed
weren't Butch and Sundance, he believed they were still there buried
somewhere in that cemetary.
I stated in an earlier blog that I met an old professor at Dixie who was from Circleville who told me that he knew FOR A FACT that Butch was buried on the Parker Ranch near Circleville. I believed his story and at that time felt that Buck was so married to his position that they had been killed in South America that he wasn't willing to even believe Parker family members.
I'm hoping for positive DNA results.
I stated in an earlier blog that I met an old professor at Dixie who was from Circleville who told me that he knew FOR A FACT that Butch was buried on the Parker Ranch near Circleville. I believed his story and at that time felt that Buck was so married to his position that they had been killed in South America that he wasn't willing to even believe Parker family members.
I'm hoping for positive DNA results.
Jerry Nicckle | 4:02 p.m. Feb. 20, 2009
Cats
Dan Buck never admitted the persons he dug were the Aramago robbers. I wanted to give him a little of his own medicine by distorting what his book stated like he does the Pinkerton files. Even though I believe he did actually dig up the Aramago robbers. Both men were killed by gunshot (Buck 302)and a locale pointed out the grave as the robbers. Buck dug up those graves because he believed they were the Aramago robbers, which I believe they actually were. I was also hoping to draw him out of hiding so he would correct my distortions but it didnt work. Why is he running from me?
Dan Buck never admitted the persons he dug were the Aramago robbers. I wanted to give him a little of his own medicine by distorting what his book stated like he does the Pinkerton files. Even though I believe he did actually dig up the Aramago robbers. Both men were killed by gunshot (Buck 302)and a locale pointed out the grave as the robbers. Buck dug up those graves because he believed they were the Aramago robbers, which I believe they actually were. I was also hoping to draw him out of hiding so he would correct my distortions but it didnt work. Why is he running from me?
Jerry Nickle | 5:14 p.m. Feb. 20, 2009
I just received my copy of Donna Ernsts new book. It doesnt have her autograph
like the last one did. And then I opened to the forward YIKES it is written by
Dan Buck. It took me few moments to regain my senses before I could continue
on.
Cats | 5:16 p.m. Feb. 20, 2009
Jerry,
I'm obviously not in the loop the way you are. Is Buck blogging on this?
I spoke to him a few years ago when I was living in Washington. At the time he was an aide on one of the committees in the House. Butch and Sundance seemed to be his avocation. I had seen the PBS documentary about forensics in South America and found it fascinating. But, I told him that Butch did come back to Utah because his sister had said so, but wouldn't reveal where he was buried.
Buck's claim was that she wasn't telling the truth and that other family members didn't agree with her statements. He claimed she just said all of this to sell her book. I noticed that on a later documentary by KUED he seemed to soften his position claiming that she might have "believed" she had seen him. My personal belief is that she knew whether or not she saw her brother. I also believe her motives were pure that she wanted everyone to know that he was not a hero, but a hunted man the rest of his life.
I'm obviously not in the loop the way you are. Is Buck blogging on this?
I spoke to him a few years ago when I was living in Washington. At the time he was an aide on one of the committees in the House. Butch and Sundance seemed to be his avocation. I had seen the PBS documentary about forensics in South America and found it fascinating. But, I told him that Butch did come back to Utah because his sister had said so, but wouldn't reveal where he was buried.
Buck's claim was that she wasn't telling the truth and that other family members didn't agree with her statements. He claimed she just said all of this to sell her book. I noticed that on a later documentary by KUED he seemed to soften his position claiming that she might have "believed" she had seen him. My personal belief is that she knew whether or not she saw her brother. I also believe her motives were pure that she wanted everyone to know that he was not a hero, but a hunted man the rest of his life.
Cats | 5:25 p.m. Feb. 20, 2009
Part II
I believe that Buck doesn't understand the motivations of people here in Utah. He had a very cynical point of view that was not warranted. I believe Butch's sister told the truth.
The man I met in St. George (can't remember his name) is, or was, a professor of family counseling at Dixie. I met him about 6-7 years ago--he was in his seventies. He had known the Parker family as a child and used to go horseback riding with Butch's brothers who were older men at the time.
When I told him what Buck had said, his reaction was amusement. He told me that Butch never even went to South America. He said that he knew for a fact that he was buried on the Parker Ranch. As I said in an earlier blog, when a construction project went across the ranch and machinery was digging trenches, the whole Parker family ran down and stood on a piece of ground in front of the machinery and refused to allow them to dig. He said that's when everyone in town knew where Butch was buried.
I thought he was credible.
I believe that Buck doesn't understand the motivations of people here in Utah. He had a very cynical point of view that was not warranted. I believe Butch's sister told the truth.
The man I met in St. George (can't remember his name) is, or was, a professor of family counseling at Dixie. I met him about 6-7 years ago--he was in his seventies. He had known the Parker family as a child and used to go horseback riding with Butch's brothers who were older men at the time.
When I told him what Buck had said, his reaction was amusement. He told me that Butch never even went to South America. He said that he knew for a fact that he was buried on the Parker Ranch. As I said in an earlier blog, when a construction project went across the ranch and machinery was digging trenches, the whole Parker family ran down and stood on a piece of ground in front of the machinery and refused to allow them to dig. He said that's when everyone in town knew where Butch was buried.
I thought he was credible.
Fred | 5:48 p.m. Feb. 20, 2009
Hey, Ghosttown Bob, Do you know all the names of the Ghost towns in Utah? I was
wondering if you knew which ghost towns that the Sundance kid and Butch Cassidy
hung out in during their life time?
Ghosttown Bob | 7:35 a.m. Feb. 21, 2009
Gillespie and Gooldy - - if your going down that road you took the wrong exit
Ghosttown Bob | 7:38 a.m. Feb. 21, 2009
Jerry - What?? you didn't know that Dan Buck had written the forward to
Donna's Book? It was in all of the advanced publicity.
Ghosttown Bob | 7:44 a.m. Feb. 21, 2009
Fred: Yes, I do know every ghost town in Utah. I am not going play the guess the
ghost town game with you, mainly because it has nothing to do with this subject
at all. If you want information on ghost towns in Utah talk to me on a ghost
town site.
Jerry Nickle | 10:58 a.m. Feb. 21, 2009
Bob
Bob
No I did not read the advanced publicly so Dan Bucks writing of the forward was a complete surprise. This is what happened. When I received the book I looked to see if it had been autographed for me, which it had not been. When I flipped through the pages with list of chapters and illustration I came to the forward. When I saw Dan Buck had written it I nearly fainted. After I regained my composure I flipped to the introduction skipping the forward completely.
Bob
No I did not read the advanced publicly so Dan Bucks writing of the forward was a complete surprise. This is what happened. When I received the book I looked to see if it had been autographed for me, which it had not been. When I flipped through the pages with list of chapters and illustration I came to the forward. When I saw Dan Buck had written it I nearly fainted. After I regained my composure I flipped to the introduction skipping the forward completely.
Jerry Nickle | 11:03 a.m. Feb. 21, 2009
Bob
Will you please tell me the name of the Ghost Town site you refer to? I would like to go there and join the discussion.
Will you please tell me the name of the Ghost Town site you refer to? I would like to go there and join the discussion.
Kid | 12:18 p.m. Feb. 21, 2009
Ghosttown Bob,
The road to Belle Fourche starts here.
The "wedding" photo of Mr. and Mrs. Harry Place: A copy was mailed by Sundance to his friend David Gillespie back in Wyoming, in a letter stating that this was his wife who he had met on a previous trip to Texas. (Donna Ernst, Sundance Kin Web Page)
The road to Belle Fourche starts here.
The "wedding" photo of Mr. and Mrs. Harry Place: A copy was mailed by Sundance to his friend David Gillespie back in Wyoming, in a letter stating that this was his wife who he had met on a previous trip to Texas. (Donna Ernst, Sundance Kin Web Page)
Anonymous | 12:43 p.m. Feb. 21, 2009
What?? you didn't know that Dan Buck had written the forward to
Donna's Book? It was in all of the advanced publicity.
And this adds what?
And this adds what?
Randall | 1:05 p.m. Feb. 21, 2009
For The Third and Final Time...Butch & The Kid were "Reported"
Grazing at the Oakley Polar King last July 4th Rodeo...
Still Chasing Your "Tale's"?
Still Chasing Your "Tale's"?
LDS in TN | 1:56 p.m. Feb. 21, 2009
Jerry and anyone else reading.
Just consider this. Everyone is so concerned about making their own point and being right. But.
What will happen to everyone's credibility if they have bet on Long not being Longabaugh and then forensic evidence indicates otherwise?
Historians have long had to face the possibility and probability of being proven wrong. The good ones live with it and move along.
Just consider this. Everyone is so concerned about making their own point and being right. But.
What will happen to everyone's credibility if they have bet on Long not being Longabaugh and then forensic evidence indicates otherwise?
Historians have long had to face the possibility and probability of being proven wrong. The good ones live with it and move along.
Jerry Nickle | 1:59 p.m. Feb. 21, 2009
Will you please tell me which publications had the advanced publicity and when?
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Still Long did, on at least one occasion, display a propensity for violence. The Oct. 24, 1901, Deseret News reported that Long had pistol-whipped a relative in a dispute over irrigation water. The gun had discharged during the incident, grazing the man's head