Reader comments
Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?
1,085 comments | Read story
Horse Creek Cowboy | 1:31 p.m. June 19, 2009
Butch:
Keith doesn't give much information. Most appears to be speculation, but with that said:
Robbery was allegedly in Texas by Ketchum Gang apparently led by Thomas E. Ketchum. Gun came into possession of Sundance Kid and from there to Butch Cassidy and thence to Charter.
I have briefly looked at train robberies associated with Texicans, 1893, they were:
Spring, 1893, Coleman, Texas;
May 2, 1893 Pryor Creek, I. T. John Wilson, Alf Chaney, and Henry Starr;
May 19, 1893 Ponca, I.T. June 24, 1893, Robbery in Choctaw Nation, Noah Lee arrested;
May 26, 1893 California Express between Dodge City and Garden City;
June 25, 1893, a train robbery, Brackenridge, Tex.
November 3, 1893, Olyphant, Ark.
Butch | 2:21 p.m. June 19, 2009
Horse Creek Cowboy:
Thanks for the information. Let us suppose for the sake of discussion that the Spring, 1893 robbery at Coleman, Texas, was the train robbery where Blackjack stole the Charter Pistol.
If Sundance got the pistol from Blackjack it would have to have been prior to the August 16, 1899 train robbery in New Mexico because Blackjack was captured near the robbery site the next day. Therefore, we would have to find a date between Spring, 1893, and August 16, 1899, when Blackjack and Sundance were in contact. Secondarily, we'll have to come up with a reason why Blackjack would give the weapon to Sundance. Any ideas?
Sundance might have given Butch the weapon anytime between Thanksgiving, 1896, at the Bassett ranch and 1907 --if we assume that Sundance is "Ingersoll" and still in SA.
Butch could have given Bert the weapon anytime between release from prison in January 1896 and 1908 when he was spotted in Wyoming as Hadsell reported.
If these presumptions are anywhere near accurate, then I suppose what we need to do is determine when Blackjack gave the weapon to Sundance, and why, and when Butch gave it to Charter, and why.
Thanks for the information. Let us suppose for the sake of discussion that the Spring, 1893 robbery at Coleman, Texas, was the train robbery where Blackjack stole the Charter Pistol.
If Sundance got the pistol from Blackjack it would have to have been prior to the August 16, 1899 train robbery in New Mexico because Blackjack was captured near the robbery site the next day. Therefore, we would have to find a date between Spring, 1893, and August 16, 1899, when Blackjack and Sundance were in contact. Secondarily, we'll have to come up with a reason why Blackjack would give the weapon to Sundance. Any ideas?
Sundance might have given Butch the weapon anytime between Thanksgiving, 1896, at the Bassett ranch and 1907 --if we assume that Sundance is "Ingersoll" and still in SA.
Butch could have given Bert the weapon anytime between release from prison in January 1896 and 1908 when he was spotted in Wyoming as Hadsell reported.
If these presumptions are anywhere near accurate, then I suppose what we need to do is determine when Blackjack gave the weapon to Sundance, and why, and when Butch gave it to Charter, and why.
Comments continue below
Ghosttown Bob | 2:35 p.m. June 19, 2009
For photos, let's not forget about m/a/z/e's Butch and Sundance
website. He has quite a few photos lifted from various sources of not only Wild
Bunch members, but lawmen and documents also.
Grow Up Enlightened | 3:34 p.m. June 19, 2009
Butch and Horse Creek Cowboy,
Thank you for the summary of the photo situation. Much more complicated than I'd imagined, but I'm certainly in support of Correspondent Museums. Great idea.
Looking forward to seeing the Lady Belle site.
GEU
Thank you for the summary of the photo situation. Much more complicated than I'd imagined, but I'm certainly in support of Correspondent Museums. Great idea.
Looking forward to seeing the Lady Belle site.
GEU
GUE | 3:43 p.m. June 19, 2009
Thanks, Ghosttown Bob. I'll check out the Butch and Sundance website right
away. Sure would like to locate some of these alleged photos that pop up in the
literature ...
I'm curious about anyone's opinions of two photos that appear in Matt Warner's "Last of the Bandit Riders (Revisited)."
1. (page 111) Warner and seven others in from of his saloon in Green River, Utah in 1889. Cassidy, apparently sitting in the chair beside the tree, face obscured by shadows.
2. (page 69) George Edward Anderson photo of railroad crew with a bearded Cassidy in the background (enlargement of Cassidy's face on page 70).
This is the edition updated by Joyce Warner and Steve Lacy. Do you think these are verifiable photographs?
I'm curious about anyone's opinions of two photos that appear in Matt Warner's "Last of the Bandit Riders (Revisited)."
1. (page 111) Warner and seven others in from of his saloon in Green River, Utah in 1889. Cassidy, apparently sitting in the chair beside the tree, face obscured by shadows.
2. (page 69) George Edward Anderson photo of railroad crew with a bearded Cassidy in the background (enlargement of Cassidy's face on page 70).
This is the edition updated by Joyce Warner and Steve Lacy. Do you think these are verifiable photographs?
Butch | 5:14 p.m. June 19, 2009
GUE:
The Warner/Lacy book has a lot of great stuff in it. As for the Anderson RR crew photo, this is the photo that TCB and I discussed from Eamonn O'Neill's book. The date attributed to the photo, 1910, more or less rules it out as being a photo of Butch regardless of whether or not you subscribe to the theory that Butch died November 6, 1908 at San Vicente or not. If the best Butch could do was work on a section gang in 1910, he must have lost his midas touch. Quite a comedown from being a SA cattle baron and hobnobbing with the diplomatic set. Then, too, Butch would have been around age 44 when the photo was taken. The figure depicted appears, at least to me, to not be yet 30 years of age. However, Butch or not must remain in the eye of the beholder.
The photo on page 111, I'm willing to agree, is one of Butch, merely because Matt says it is. However, I'm not willing to give the date of the photo as 1889 for several reasons.
Continued ..........
The Warner/Lacy book has a lot of great stuff in it. As for the Anderson RR crew photo, this is the photo that TCB and I discussed from Eamonn O'Neill's book. The date attributed to the photo, 1910, more or less rules it out as being a photo of Butch regardless of whether or not you subscribe to the theory that Butch died November 6, 1908 at San Vicente or not. If the best Butch could do was work on a section gang in 1910, he must have lost his midas touch. Quite a comedown from being a SA cattle baron and hobnobbing with the diplomatic set. Then, too, Butch would have been around age 44 when the photo was taken. The figure depicted appears, at least to me, to not be yet 30 years of age. However, Butch or not must remain in the eye of the beholder.
The photo on page 111, I'm willing to agree, is one of Butch, merely because Matt says it is. However, I'm not willing to give the date of the photo as 1889 for several reasons.
Continued ..........
Interested Bystander | 5:28 p.m. June 19, 2009
If you guys will look at the entries that Kid Charter placed on June 8th you
will note what he says about Olin Emery. The story about Tom Ketchum having the
pistol (Charter Pistol) is bunk. I suspect that the story about it being lifted
in a train robbery is also bunk. Are there any sources for this other than
someone said? Everything that is written down is not necessarily fact.
According to the Charters the pistol came from Longabaugh not Butch!
Butch | 5:32 p.m. June 19, 2009
1.) The photo made it into Matt's 1940 book, published after his death,
between pages 138 and 139. Matt did not date the photograph. Apparently Lacy
dated the photo from it's placement in the chapter dealing with Matt,
Butch, and Tom McCarty hiding out in Robbers Roost after the Telluride bank
job.
2.) The figure seated in the doorway of the saloon is, according to Matt, Sheriff Tom Fares. According to Matt, he took Fares pants from him when Fares dared to enter the Roost looking for Butch, Matt and Tom on the Telluride escape. It isn't likely that Fares would join the boys for a friendly drink in Green River after having been stripped of his pants a few days before --especially with most of the western U.S. looking for the 3 named Telluride robbers. If Butch, Matt, and Fares were photographed in 1889, it would only be with Butch and Matt wearing shiny bracelets and with Fares leveling a Colt at them.
3.) In 1889, Matt would have been 25 years old. In the photo Matt appears to be at least 36 to 40 years of age.
Continued ...............
2.) The figure seated in the doorway of the saloon is, according to Matt, Sheriff Tom Fares. According to Matt, he took Fares pants from him when Fares dared to enter the Roost looking for Butch, Matt and Tom on the Telluride escape. It isn't likely that Fares would join the boys for a friendly drink in Green River after having been stripped of his pants a few days before --especially with most of the western U.S. looking for the 3 named Telluride robbers. If Butch, Matt, and Fares were photographed in 1889, it would only be with Butch and Matt wearing shiny bracelets and with Fares leveling a Colt at them.
3.) In 1889, Matt would have been 25 years old. In the photo Matt appears to be at least 36 to 40 years of age.
Continued ...............
Butch | 5:45 p.m. June 19, 2009
4.) In 1889 Longabaugh was either in jail in Sundance, Wyoming, or on the run
following the shooting in the dug out on Oil Creek, or on his way to Canada. No
chance, no way, he was having a drink with Butch and Matt in 1889 in Green
River.
So, while I'll accept the photo as depicting the figures as Matt described in his book, no way will I accept Lacy's dating of the photo as 1889.
Best guess? The photo was taken shortly after Matt was released from prison, January 21, 1900. If that is true, I can well understand Sheriff Fares in the photo. Matt was no longer wanted and neither was Butch, the Statute of Limitations for Telluride having long since tolled. Harry was wanted for the Bell Fourche bank job, innocent though he was, but he was wanted under the name of Jones.
I haven't blogged anythin here that is "proof" one way or another. I just expressed my opinion based on my reasoning from facts. Others no doubt see it differently. That is precisely what makes this so interesting and fun.
So, while I'll accept the photo as depicting the figures as Matt described in his book, no way will I accept Lacy's dating of the photo as 1889.
Best guess? The photo was taken shortly after Matt was released from prison, January 21, 1900. If that is true, I can well understand Sheriff Fares in the photo. Matt was no longer wanted and neither was Butch, the Statute of Limitations for Telluride having long since tolled. Harry was wanted for the Bell Fourche bank job, innocent though he was, but he was wanted under the name of Jones.
I haven't blogged anythin here that is "proof" one way or another. I just expressed my opinion based on my reasoning from facts. Others no doubt see it differently. That is precisely what makes this so interesting and fun.
Butch | 5:57 p.m. June 19, 2009
Interested Bystander:
Yes, everything you say is true. However, that is entirely beside the point under discussion. Ghosttown Bob introduced Valley's allegations under discussion. We are discussing those allegations to see if they have merit. Why not join in the discussion? I can't think of a time or place when Longabaugh and Ketchum were together, and I can't come up with a reason why Ketchum would give Longabaugh a weapon. Can anyone else?
Yes, everything you say is true. However, that is entirely beside the point under discussion. Ghosttown Bob introduced Valley's allegations under discussion. We are discussing those allegations to see if they have merit. Why not join in the discussion? I can't think of a time or place when Longabaugh and Ketchum were together, and I can't come up with a reason why Ketchum would give Longabaugh a weapon. Can anyone else?
Anonymous | 6:03 p.m. June 19, 2009
It is fun, seeing what folks will believe. After all the dust settles, if it
ever does, as has been pointed out, there are three pictures of Butch Cassidy,
that are of him. The mug shot, Ft. Worth and the cabin picture in So. Am. The
more that is weitten, the farther from what was reality, we get.
Horse Creek Cowboy | 9:00 a.m. June 20, 2009
Interested Observer:
Except for the material from Kathleen Hoyt quoted by Kid Charter relating to the serial number, consignee, etc. of the "famous" Charter gun, everything seems to be family legend originating with Boyd Charter. According to Keith's website, the gun bears Sundance's mark. Undoubtedly, however, the gun's travels originated in Texas. The question remains, how did it get to Antelope Flats. If stolen in train robbery, I would be inclined to either Breckenridge or Coleman, more likely because of timing to Breckenridge. That would have enabled the gun to have been delivered to the dealer in Sherman.
If gun given to Sundance, most likely at the WS. All, however, is speculation, unless we employ a medium.
Except for the material from Kathleen Hoyt quoted by Kid Charter relating to the serial number, consignee, etc. of the "famous" Charter gun, everything seems to be family legend originating with Boyd Charter. According to Keith's website, the gun bears Sundance's mark. Undoubtedly, however, the gun's travels originated in Texas. The question remains, how did it get to Antelope Flats. If stolen in train robbery, I would be inclined to either Breckenridge or Coleman, more likely because of timing to Breckenridge. That would have enabled the gun to have been delivered to the dealer in Sherman.
If gun given to Sundance, most likely at the WS. All, however, is speculation, unless we employ a medium.
Anonymous | 7:31 p.m. June 20, 2009
It is amusing to know there are people that believe Butch and Sundance were
killed in San Vicente. Thankfully the more that is written the more we will know
what really happened.
A Thought | 8:15 p.m. June 20, 2009
"Thankfully the more that is written the more we will know what really
happened."
Didn't you mean to say....the more that is written, the less we will know of whar really took place. Each writing brings a change. What actually took place, never changes.
AT
Didn't you mean to say....the more that is written, the less we will know of whar really took place. Each writing brings a change. What actually took place, never changes.
AT
GUE | 8:42 a.m. June 23, 2009
Has the notion that Cassidy died in Henrieville in 1936 (according to Wallace
Ott) been supported by anyone else? There are only brief mentions of this over
the Internet. Any thoughts?
Tumbleweed | 3:07 p.m. June 23, 2009
The photo i was refering to with Butch standing next to a horse is in the
"the encyclopediia of western lawmen & outlaws by Jay Robert Nash 1994
on page 68.Has anyone any thoughts on this photo?
GUE.
please expand on your blog. What is henriesville? What is theory on this?
has my initiall blog been ignored? does the the person who blogged the questions i refered to not wish to answer? have they no answer? Was it a rhetorical question? Do they not have an answer?
GUE.
please expand on your blog. What is henriesville? What is theory on this?
has my initiall blog been ignored? does the the person who blogged the questions i refered to not wish to answer? have they no answer? Was it a rhetorical question? Do they not have an answer?
GUE | 4:04 p.m. June 23, 2009
Hi Tumbleweed,
Sorry--I must have missed your initial blog (trying to get up to speed here).
While searching online, I stumbled across that name Wallace Ott, an old-timer who once claimed that he spoke with Cassidy after his return from S. America. Ott claimed that Cassidy died in a town called Henrieville in 1936; this may have been in an article called "Did Butch and sundance Return?" (Buck and Meadows). I was hoping to verify that this was not just another William T. Phillips sighting, but I can only find Ott's name online with very brief testimonies such as "an old-timer who claimed to have spoken with Butch Cassidy in the 1930s" etc.
The years 1936-1937 seem to be a hotspot for theories regarding Cassidy's time of death, and I was hoping to cross-reference this Henrieville idea with the others. However, I can't find Ott in any publications (I apologize if I missed any in your initial blog--I'll go back and check).
Thanks for any thoughts.
Sorry--I must have missed your initial blog (trying to get up to speed here).
While searching online, I stumbled across that name Wallace Ott, an old-timer who once claimed that he spoke with Cassidy after his return from S. America. Ott claimed that Cassidy died in a town called Henrieville in 1936; this may have been in an article called "Did Butch and sundance Return?" (Buck and Meadows). I was hoping to verify that this was not just another William T. Phillips sighting, but I can only find Ott's name online with very brief testimonies such as "an old-timer who claimed to have spoken with Butch Cassidy in the 1930s" etc.
The years 1936-1937 seem to be a hotspot for theories regarding Cassidy's time of death, and I was hoping to cross-reference this Henrieville idea with the others. However, I can't find Ott in any publications (I apologize if I missed any in your initial blog--I'll go back and check).
Thanks for any thoughts.
Anonymous | 5:17 p.m. June 23, 2009
This will probably be of little value but at one time I was given Mr. Ott's
name and phone number. The party that gave me the information also stated, he
most likely won't answer the phone, as he his fed up with questions about
Butch Cassidy. Ott was to have known Butch after his return to the US. At this
time Mr. Ott lived in Tropic, Utah. The white pages currently lists a Wallace
Ott in Tropic, ph # 435 679 8626. (doubt if it is the same one) Due to the years
that have passed, I would be surprised if Wallace Ott is still living. Hope
this can be of some help.
Bob Jayne
Bob Jayne
tartan cowboy | 1:55 a.m. June 24, 2009
tumbleweed:
I believe the previous blog you're refering to was posted by butch.If you you read back you'll see he was posing questions based on observations,not making statements.
I can't comment on the photograph in the nash book as i don't have a copy.I think the other photographs you mentioned,the teenage BC with horse and the horse creek BC sitting are both in the pointer book, but i dont know how authentic these are.
How does one pronounce Duchesne?
I believe the previous blog you're refering to was posted by butch.If you you read back you'll see he was posing questions based on observations,not making statements.
I can't comment on the photograph in the nash book as i don't have a copy.I think the other photographs you mentioned,the teenage BC with horse and the horse creek BC sitting are both in the pointer book, but i dont know how authentic these are.
How does one pronounce Duchesne?
Horse Creek Cowboy | 7:50 a.m. June 24, 2009
Re: Wallace Ott
Wallace met an individual claiming to be Butch in 1936 in Henrieville. The full story appeared in the Deseret News:
TROPIC OLD-TIMER REMEMBERS BUTCH CASSIDY
By Jerry Spangler, Staff Writer
Published: Monday, Nov. 25, 1991.
Ott explained how he knew the individual was Cassidy:
"There's no doubt, none whatsoever, that it was Butch Cassidy," Ott says. "He had photographs of places he'd been and photographs of people he'd run with. And he knew the stories as only someone who'd been there could tell them."
"And he knew all the local names and histories as only someone who had grown up locally could have.
"Ott, 79, recalls his visit with Cassidy fondly, calling him "well-preserved for a fellow in his 80's." Cassidy was traveling with an attractive woman and drove a nice car. He claimed to have a home in San Diego."
About three years ago, Ott repeated the account of his visit with Cassidy to Photographer John Telford.
Wallace is about 98 years old now.
Wallace met an individual claiming to be Butch in 1936 in Henrieville. The full story appeared in the Deseret News:
TROPIC OLD-TIMER REMEMBERS BUTCH CASSIDY
By Jerry Spangler, Staff Writer
Published: Monday, Nov. 25, 1991.
Ott explained how he knew the individual was Cassidy:
"There's no doubt, none whatsoever, that it was Butch Cassidy," Ott says. "He had photographs of places he'd been and photographs of people he'd run with. And he knew the stories as only someone who'd been there could tell them."
"And he knew all the local names and histories as only someone who had grown up locally could have.
"Ott, 79, recalls his visit with Cassidy fondly, calling him "well-preserved for a fellow in his 80's." Cassidy was traveling with an attractive woman and drove a nice car. He claimed to have a home in San Diego."
About three years ago, Ott repeated the account of his visit with Cassidy to Photographer John Telford.
Wallace is about 98 years old now.
Butch | 8:17 a.m. June 24, 2009
Just checking the blog.
Tumbleweed:
Tartan Cowboy gave a good answer to your question. I'm the guilty party who asked the questions. As to where my question was going, I guess the answer is "Not very far". It didn't have legs on this blog as no one wanted to discuss it. It was probably too mundane to be of interest to anyone but me.
If you have a thought about it, I'd like to hear it.
Tumbleweed:
Tartan Cowboy gave a good answer to your question. I'm the guilty party who asked the questions. As to where my question was going, I guess the answer is "Not very far". It didn't have legs on this blog as no one wanted to discuss it. It was probably too mundane to be of interest to anyone but me.
If you have a thought about it, I'd like to hear it.
GUE | 11:40 a.m. June 24, 2009
Thanks, HCC. 98years old! Built to last!
This information on Ott is most helpful. The San Diego reference is something I haven't come across, but it sounds reminiscent of William T. Phillips and some of his excursions mentioned in Pointer's book (regarding his searching for buried loot). In any event, I'm going to scan through Phillips' "Bandit Invincible" manuscript and look for references to San Diego.
Tumbleweed,
I agree with Tartan Cowboy. I may be mistaken, but I've heard reference that the young man in the photo is actually a local cowboy named Mike Steele.
This information on Ott is most helpful. The San Diego reference is something I haven't come across, but it sounds reminiscent of William T. Phillips and some of his excursions mentioned in Pointer's book (regarding his searching for buried loot). In any event, I'm going to scan through Phillips' "Bandit Invincible" manuscript and look for references to San Diego.
Tumbleweed,
I agree with Tartan Cowboy. I may be mistaken, but I've heard reference that the young man in the photo is actually a local cowboy named Mike Steele.
tartan cowboy | 11:41 a.m. June 24, 2009
have just got a copy of Kirby's the saga of Butch Cassidy etc.There are two
photographs supposedly of BC.One on a horse 1912,the other in silver city
1936.The one on the horse is too indistinct,but the older man does have a
resemblence,particularly with the fort worth photograph.Any thoughts on these?
There is also a very dubious photo of Sundance kid and Kid curry.Was it really
Kid Curry killed at Parachute?Any comments on this?
Butch:
I for one would be very interested in hearing your views on the subject Tumbleweed was talking about.Perhaps if you revisit the subject it would spark some comments.They were interesting questions you put out there,and i'm sure you have your own theories to the questions.Look forward to hearing from you.
Butch:
I for one would be very interested in hearing your views on the subject Tumbleweed was talking about.Perhaps if you revisit the subject it would spark some comments.They were interesting questions you put out there,and i'm sure you have your own theories to the questions.Look forward to hearing from you.
Butch | 1:47 p.m. June 24, 2009
TCB:
Well, yes I do. However, I'd like to hear the views of others on this blog. There are a lot of very intelligent people with a lot of knowledge on this subject who contribute here. While waiting for responses, let me ask another dumb question.
Suppose you and I, wanted criminals, were in Fort Worth, Texas, and decided to escape to SA. Further suppose that we both know about the Hall/Nichols escape route to SA by way of cattle boats leaving New Orleans or Galveston, going to Europe, and then SA. Now then, why would we chose to take a supposed Texas Hooker named Ethel Place to Buffalo and then to the Big Apple, when we could just hop a freight from Fort Worth to either New Orleans or Galveston and be on our way? Why go east and risk apprehension? Why have a photograph taken with Ethel/Etta and mail it to Gilespie where it is certain to fall into the hands of law enforcement?
"Look, Pinkertons, here is the drop dead gorgeous woman we are traveling with. She's not only easy on the eyes, but see her once and remember her for life"
Well, yes I do. However, I'd like to hear the views of others on this blog. There are a lot of very intelligent people with a lot of knowledge on this subject who contribute here. While waiting for responses, let me ask another dumb question.
Suppose you and I, wanted criminals, were in Fort Worth, Texas, and decided to escape to SA. Further suppose that we both know about the Hall/Nichols escape route to SA by way of cattle boats leaving New Orleans or Galveston, going to Europe, and then SA. Now then, why would we chose to take a supposed Texas Hooker named Ethel Place to Buffalo and then to the Big Apple, when we could just hop a freight from Fort Worth to either New Orleans or Galveston and be on our way? Why go east and risk apprehension? Why have a photograph taken with Ethel/Etta and mail it to Gilespie where it is certain to fall into the hands of law enforcement?
"Look, Pinkertons, here is the drop dead gorgeous woman we are traveling with. She's not only easy on the eyes, but see her once and remember her for life"
tartan cowboy | 6:46 a.m. June 25, 2009
Butch:
Trying to get my head round this.If they knew about the Hall/nicholls safety route and chose to take the more conventional mode of transport,one can only assume that it possibly was to leave a paper trail for the pinkertons to follow,but why?Was this by way of establishing their location as SA when in fact they intended spending little time in that local? While the pinkertons concentrated their efforts in SA BC/SK where free to carry out their shennanigans back home? If this is the case was Ethel living in cholila with two others?Did Harry acompany ethel back and forth to further establish their whereabouts?As far as the photo goes are you suggesting the hope was that it would fall into the pinkertons hands?The other question was why show this woman once seen never to be forgotten in photographic form? Was it to establish identity? but whose,hers or SK?To what end?Was it harry in the photograph,or a doppleganger?Am i completely off track here?
Trying to get my head round this.If they knew about the Hall/nicholls safety route and chose to take the more conventional mode of transport,one can only assume that it possibly was to leave a paper trail for the pinkertons to follow,but why?Was this by way of establishing their location as SA when in fact they intended spending little time in that local? While the pinkertons concentrated their efforts in SA BC/SK where free to carry out their shennanigans back home? If this is the case was Ethel living in cholila with two others?Did Harry acompany ethel back and forth to further establish their whereabouts?As far as the photo goes are you suggesting the hope was that it would fall into the pinkertons hands?The other question was why show this woman once seen never to be forgotten in photographic form? Was it to establish identity? but whose,hers or SK?To what end?Was it harry in the photograph,or a doppleganger?Am i completely off track here?
Butch | 8:30 a.m. June 25, 2009
TCB:
No, I don't think you're off the track. However, I do believe that no doppelganger was involved and that Harry Longabaugh and Bob Parker were in fact in SA as recorded. I don't believe that they were pulling any crimes either in SA or the US. I believe that they were engaged in the cattle raising business exactly as it appears. The question I think is relevant is: "Who were the real parties in interest in the SA cattle raising venture?" Was it the Hall/Nichols/Newberry group who had been in the business since 1887?
Why not "Follow the money"? Start with the Cholila ranch financing. Currently the literature says that Winnemucca robbery proceeds were used. If so, then Parker and Longabaugh are lugging around $20 grand worth of $20 gold coins from WY to TX to NY. However, Harry and "Ethel" deposited 2,000 pounds in British gold notes (worth $12,000) in the River Platt Bank in BA. Who changed the money? Where is the rest of the money? Remember Harry is broke at Slater around November 1, 1900 and then flush in NY when "Ethel" is around. Why?
No, I don't think you're off the track. However, I do believe that no doppelganger was involved and that Harry Longabaugh and Bob Parker were in fact in SA as recorded. I don't believe that they were pulling any crimes either in SA or the US. I believe that they were engaged in the cattle raising business exactly as it appears. The question I think is relevant is: "Who were the real parties in interest in the SA cattle raising venture?" Was it the Hall/Nichols/Newberry group who had been in the business since 1887?
Why not "Follow the money"? Start with the Cholila ranch financing. Currently the literature says that Winnemucca robbery proceeds were used. If so, then Parker and Longabaugh are lugging around $20 grand worth of $20 gold coins from WY to TX to NY. However, Harry and "Ethel" deposited 2,000 pounds in British gold notes (worth $12,000) in the River Platt Bank in BA. Who changed the money? Where is the rest of the money? Remember Harry is broke at Slater around November 1, 1900 and then flush in NY when "Ethel" is around. Why?
Horse Creek Cowboy | 8:58 a.m. June 25, 2009
Tartan Cowboy:
Re: Kid Curry.
The body based on a letter was initially identified as Tap Duncan. Tap, howver, died in 1944. Dated September 1, 1904, the Pinkertons reported to the American Bankers Association that the body in Parachute had been identified locally as Curry BUT, the Pinkerton's wrote
To confirm identification they sent their Knoxville agent to Colorado. He dug up the remains but they were in such a state of decomposition that identification was impossible. The Pinkertons noted "there is some difference of opinion as to whether or not the dead bandit is Logan, and of this we are in doubt,"
In 1905, "Andrew Duffy" appeared in Chubut. Writer Luis Sepuleda and rodeo producer Milt Hinkle believe that Duffy was Logan. Hinkle has Duffy dying in Bahia Blanca in 1941. Percy Seibert believed that Logan was killed in San Vicente. Others believe that Duffy was killed in 1910.
Since the body was not that of Tap Duncan, most likely, Harvy was killed at Parachute. We of course can go to Bahia Blanca, dig up Duffy and do DNA tests. Title for new book, "Digging up Andy."
Re: Kid Curry.
The body based on a letter was initially identified as Tap Duncan. Tap, howver, died in 1944. Dated September 1, 1904, the Pinkertons reported to the American Bankers Association that the body in Parachute had been identified locally as Curry BUT, the Pinkerton's wrote
To confirm identification they sent their Knoxville agent to Colorado. He dug up the remains but they were in such a state of decomposition that identification was impossible. The Pinkertons noted "there is some difference of opinion as to whether or not the dead bandit is Logan, and of this we are in doubt,"
In 1905, "Andrew Duffy" appeared in Chubut. Writer Luis Sepuleda and rodeo producer Milt Hinkle believe that Duffy was Logan. Hinkle has Duffy dying in Bahia Blanca in 1941. Percy Seibert believed that Logan was killed in San Vicente. Others believe that Duffy was killed in 1910.
Since the body was not that of Tap Duncan, most likely, Harvy was killed at Parachute. We of course can go to Bahia Blanca, dig up Duffy and do DNA tests. Title for new book, "Digging up Andy."
Butch | 10:11 a.m. June 25, 2009
TCB and Horse Creek Cowboy:
Maybe not. On June 10, 1905 J. C. Fraser wrote to James McParland that the latest information received on the dead robber in Parachute Canyon was identified as one Shorty Fox from Holbrook, Arizona.
(Container 91, Folio 2)
Apparently the Pinkertons considered the information to be accurate. On February 3, 1910, William Pinkerton forwarded the Agency's file on Logan to E. Van Buskirk, Superintendant of the National Bureau of Criminal Identification in Washington (forerunner of the FBI). (Container 91, Folio 2) The file's last entry was June 27, 1903, detailing Harvey's escape from jail in Knox County, TN. As of 1910, both the FBI and Pinkertons were still looking for Logan and neither agency believed he died in Parachute Canyon.
Insted of digging up Gold Teeth Duffy, why don't we do a double dig --the corpse in Rifle and Lonny Logan and compare DNA? We could write a book: "Digging Up Logans"
I've got a shovel. Anyone else?
Maybe not. On June 10, 1905 J. C. Fraser wrote to James McParland that the latest information received on the dead robber in Parachute Canyon was identified as one Shorty Fox from Holbrook, Arizona.
(Container 91, Folio 2)
Apparently the Pinkertons considered the information to be accurate. On February 3, 1910, William Pinkerton forwarded the Agency's file on Logan to E. Van Buskirk, Superintendant of the National Bureau of Criminal Identification in Washington (forerunner of the FBI). (Container 91, Folio 2) The file's last entry was June 27, 1903, detailing Harvey's escape from jail in Knox County, TN. As of 1910, both the FBI and Pinkertons were still looking for Logan and neither agency believed he died in Parachute Canyon.
Insted of digging up Gold Teeth Duffy, why don't we do a double dig --the corpse in Rifle and Lonny Logan and compare DNA? We could write a book: "Digging Up Logans"
I've got a shovel. Anyone else?
Interested Bystander | 11:23 a.m. June 25, 2009
Butch and Horse Creek Cowboy-
Just because the body at Parachute (there is no canyon) was not Tap Duncan does not mean that it was Harvey Logan. The wounds do not match Harvey according to the reports of the Coroner. One problem with Butch's suggestion that we dig up the corpse in Glenwood Springs (not Rifle) and compare the DNA to Loney Logan's in Kansas City, is that no one seems to know exactly where it is buried. If anyone is interested I have a precise location according to Jesse Cole Kenworth of the location of the grave of the dead bandit in Rifle, Colorado.
Just because the body at Parachute (there is no canyon) was not Tap Duncan does not mean that it was Harvey Logan. The wounds do not match Harvey according to the reports of the Coroner. One problem with Butch's suggestion that we dig up the corpse in Glenwood Springs (not Rifle) and compare the DNA to Loney Logan's in Kansas City, is that no one seems to know exactly where it is buried. If anyone is interested I have a precise location according to Jesse Cole Kenworth of the location of the grave of the dead bandit in Rifle, Colorado.
tartan cowboy | 12:44 p.m. June 25, 2009
Horse creek cowboy: thanks for the info.Another mystery to solve when BC/SK
riddle is brought to a close!Bring on the grassy knoll!I've also got a good
digging spade!
Butch:
sounds like i am off track a bit.What activities exactly where the Hall/nichols/newberry into?
So they financed Bc/SK/EP venture in cholila?Where they then all part of the same organisation? Did the rest of the money go on buying into the H/N/N group?Did SK/EP travel back on coventional modes of transport to avoid drawing attention to the clandestine safety route? Why the trips back,were they cash couriers?Was ethel already an integral part of the H/H/N group? Can't be just that SK was a bad money manager.Was the deyoung photograph some kind of calling card/pass?Was ethel the main courier and SK was her travelling muscle.Where they really romantically involved?
Butch:
sounds like i am off track a bit.What activities exactly where the Hall/nichols/newberry into?
So they financed Bc/SK/EP venture in cholila?Where they then all part of the same organisation? Did the rest of the money go on buying into the H/N/N group?Did SK/EP travel back on coventional modes of transport to avoid drawing attention to the clandestine safety route? Why the trips back,were they cash couriers?Was ethel already an integral part of the H/H/N group? Can't be just that SK was a bad money manager.Was the deyoung photograph some kind of calling card/pass?Was ethel the main courier and SK was her travelling muscle.Where they really romantically involved?
Butch | 1:37 p.m. June 25, 2009
Interested Bystander:
I'd be very interested in knowing the exact location of the grave of the dead robber. I don't believe for a minute that a DNA comparison with the remains of the train robber with Logan DNA would result in a match. At the moment I believe that Harvey Logan wasn't anywhere near Parachute or Rifle at the time of the robbery. I believe the final Pinkerton report is accurate, and that the deceased was never identified. William Pinkerton reached that conclusion as early as July 9, 1904 chiefly on the basis of the coroner not finding a bullet wound on the wrist.
Siringo claimed he chased Harvey Logan after a bank robbery in 1908, and also claimed he got a letter from Jim Ferguson saying the three hold ups stayed at his ranch and that Harvey wasn't one of them. Siringo claims he sent the letter to the Burns Agency. That would square with the 1910 inquiry from the FBI.
If we can't find Lonny's grave in KC, how about we try to find Johnny in Landusky?
My shovel is still ready.
I'd be very interested in knowing the exact location of the grave of the dead robber. I don't believe for a minute that a DNA comparison with the remains of the train robber with Logan DNA would result in a match. At the moment I believe that Harvey Logan wasn't anywhere near Parachute or Rifle at the time of the robbery. I believe the final Pinkerton report is accurate, and that the deceased was never identified. William Pinkerton reached that conclusion as early as July 9, 1904 chiefly on the basis of the coroner not finding a bullet wound on the wrist.
Siringo claimed he chased Harvey Logan after a bank robbery in 1908, and also claimed he got a letter from Jim Ferguson saying the three hold ups stayed at his ranch and that Harvey wasn't one of them. Siringo claims he sent the letter to the Burns Agency. That would square with the 1910 inquiry from the FBI.
If we can't find Lonny's grave in KC, how about we try to find Johnny in Landusky?
My shovel is still ready.
Butch | 1:56 p.m. June 25, 2009
TCB:
I'm of the opinion that H/N/N were nothing more than early SA cattle ranchers who used outlaws with cowboy skills as staff. The Newberry family might have had the cash to get the operation going but I think it is more likely that English/French/Belgian
money was the major source of finance and that the money was funneled through New York capitalists and their British associated banks. After all, the beef and mutton went on British ships to Europe --who couldn't feed itself with local production.
Ethel Place as a money representative? It sure looks that way, doesn't it? After Butch and Harry get the Cochamba trail open and the packing house going, they sell out and "Ethel" takes a powder. "Mission Accomplished"? And, Harry is back on financial skid row. No "Ethel" no dough.
So why the trail so plain it could be followed by anyone? Try this line of thought: Instead of "Harry, The Sundance Kid, Longabaugh" what if it was "Hapless Harry The Red Herring Longabaugh"? If true, what was Harry The Red Herring leading everyone away from? It sure wasn't SA! What then?
I'm of the opinion that H/N/N were nothing more than early SA cattle ranchers who used outlaws with cowboy skills as staff. The Newberry family might have had the cash to get the operation going but I think it is more likely that English/French/Belgian
money was the major source of finance and that the money was funneled through New York capitalists and their British associated banks. After all, the beef and mutton went on British ships to Europe --who couldn't feed itself with local production.
Ethel Place as a money representative? It sure looks that way, doesn't it? After Butch and Harry get the Cochamba trail open and the packing house going, they sell out and "Ethel" takes a powder. "Mission Accomplished"? And, Harry is back on financial skid row. No "Ethel" no dough.
So why the trail so plain it could be followed by anyone? Try this line of thought: Instead of "Harry, The Sundance Kid, Longabaugh" what if it was "Hapless Harry The Red Herring Longabaugh"? If true, what was Harry The Red Herring leading everyone away from? It sure wasn't SA! What then?
Horse Creek Cowboy | 2:50 p.m. June 25, 2009
Re: Harvey Logan,
Pinkerton may have reached the conclusion on the 9th. The next day he received opposite information. The New York Times, the paragon of reporting all the news that fits, reported on July 11:
"The Pinkerton Agecn at Denver, believing that the dead bandit was Logan, obtained his photograph and sent it to their Chicago agency. Word was received in this city yesterday by Robert A. Pinkerton that the bandit's photgraph had been fully identified by the police, Sheriffs, and jailers of the Knoxville jail, from which he had escapted, as Harvey Logan."
On July 19, 1904, The Spokane Spokesman-Review reported that L. Spence of Chicago from a "leading detective agency" identified the robber as Harvey Logan from photographs. The article continued:
"Spence was unable to complete his identification today for the reason that the body was in such an advanced state of decomposition as to destroy all distinquishing marks. Nevertheless he still maintains that Harvey Logan and the Rio Grande bandid are one and the same person. He has been strengthened in his belief after a talk with a local criminologist who had previously examined the features of the dead bandit."
Pinkerton may have reached the conclusion on the 9th. The next day he received opposite information. The New York Times, the paragon of reporting all the news that fits, reported on July 11:
"The Pinkerton Agecn at Denver, believing that the dead bandit was Logan, obtained his photograph and sent it to their Chicago agency. Word was received in this city yesterday by Robert A. Pinkerton that the bandit's photgraph had been fully identified by the police, Sheriffs, and jailers of the Knoxville jail, from which he had escapted, as Harvey Logan."
On July 19, 1904, The Spokane Spokesman-Review reported that L. Spence of Chicago from a "leading detective agency" identified the robber as Harvey Logan from photographs. The article continued:
"Spence was unable to complete his identification today for the reason that the body was in such an advanced state of decomposition as to destroy all distinquishing marks. Nevertheless he still maintains that Harvey Logan and the Rio Grande bandid are one and the same person. He has been strengthened in his belief after a talk with a local criminologist who had previously examined the features of the dead bandit."
Interested Bystander | 3:12 p.m. June 25, 2009
Butch: From a letter dated Dec. 7, 1996 written to me from Jesse Cole Kenworth:
"He is buried in Glenwood in Pioneer cemetery section called Gods half
acre. His grave is marked with metal marker in a clump of Sage located at front
of Neville sisters graves, across from the 10th pole of the chain link fence.
His marker is adjacent to the original dividing wooden fence post that
remains." Loney Logan's grave in Kansas City is easy. It is in the
family plot next to his sister Arda Alma Rodriguez.
Riding By | 3:20 p.m. June 25, 2009
. If indeed the Place alias came from Harry Longabaugh it seems likely that
Etta was a Utah girl or at least living in Utah at the time of the camping out
in the winter of 96-97 in Robbers Roost. We have always assumed that the alias
came from Longabaugh (his mother's maiden name) but maybe it did not.
RB
RB
RB | 3:32 p.m. June 25, 2009
Some thoughts.
Harvey showed up around Dave Picard and Vince Hayes ranch on Bridger Creek about May 21, 1904. Wounded by a shot fired by Johnson County under sheriff Beard while at Walt Punteney's place. The men were away on roundup and the women hid him in the root cellar. When the men caught word of this they came and took him by wagon about twenty miles to a cabin on Lake Creek, about fiteen miles northeast of Thermopolis. The story is that he recovered from his wounds and this is about the last we hear of him.
Some believe he shot himself after a botched train robbery near Parachute, Colorado on June 9, 1904. The train robbery was on June 7, 1904 and they had not gotten very far. I don't think Harvey could have been there just sixteen days before being shot on Bridger Creek in Wyoming.
Harvey showed up around Dave Picard and Vince Hayes ranch on Bridger Creek about May 21, 1904. Wounded by a shot fired by Johnson County under sheriff Beard while at Walt Punteney's place. The men were away on roundup and the women hid him in the root cellar. When the men caught word of this they came and took him by wagon about twenty miles to a cabin on Lake Creek, about fiteen miles northeast of Thermopolis. The story is that he recovered from his wounds and this is about the last we hear of him.
Some believe he shot himself after a botched train robbery near Parachute, Colorado on June 9, 1904. The train robbery was on June 7, 1904 and they had not gotten very far. I don't think Harvey could have been there just sixteen days before being shot on Bridger Creek in Wyoming.
Butch | 4:37 p.m. June 25, 2009
Horse Creek Cowboy:
I sure hope you're not banking on the Gray Lady to give you your news. The fact is that William, on the 9th commented that: "Naturally, the people at Knoxville who are crooked in this matter, including the Sheriff, would try to make it appear that Logan is dead, to save their own skirts. Personally, I am inclined to believe the Knoxville identification is wrong, but it can never be decided until an examination has been made of the body."
When the examination established the absence of a wrist wound, William's initial opinion stood --well past 1910.
The Gray Lady correctly reported that Robert had received notice of the Knoxville identifications. He got it from William in the letter just quoted. The Times did not report William's disbelief and lack of confidence in the Knoxville identifications.
My goodness! You don't suppose Mr Buck and Ms Meadows worked as Interns at the Times, do you? The manner of reporting half truths, incomplete facts, and manipulated facts is identical to standard NYT practice, then and now.
I sure hope you're not banking on the Gray Lady to give you your news. The fact is that William, on the 9th commented that: "Naturally, the people at Knoxville who are crooked in this matter, including the Sheriff, would try to make it appear that Logan is dead, to save their own skirts. Personally, I am inclined to believe the Knoxville identification is wrong, but it can never be decided until an examination has been made of the body."
When the examination established the absence of a wrist wound, William's initial opinion stood --well past 1910.
The Gray Lady correctly reported that Robert had received notice of the Knoxville identifications. He got it from William in the letter just quoted. The Times did not report William's disbelief and lack of confidence in the Knoxville identifications.
My goodness! You don't suppose Mr Buck and Ms Meadows worked as Interns at the Times, do you? The manner of reporting half truths, incomplete facts, and manipulated facts is identical to standard NYT practice, then and now.
Butch | 4:44 p.m. June 25, 2009
Interested Bystander:
Thanks so much for those directions to the grave. They are so specific, I'm sure I can find it.
I'll bet Mr Buck and Ms Meadows wished you were along when they went looking for Butch and Harry. With your help they would have at least looked on the right continent.
Thanks so much for those directions to the grave. They are so specific, I'm sure I can find it.
I'll bet Mr Buck and Ms Meadows wished you were along when they went looking for Butch and Harry. With your help they would have at least looked on the right continent.
tartan cowboy | 1:12 a.m. June 26, 2009
Butch:
So what we have is BC/SK working for H/H/N group setting things up in SA? Also Ethel as the courier,presumably already connected to H/H/N?She sets in motion to find a patsy and SK fits the bill?
She uses him to escort her back and forth from SA to U.S,not only as protection,but chiefly as a red herring to divert attention away from what? The safety routes?From a person/s? Were the photographs,SK so reluctant to have taken,driven by ethel?Was it's purpose to provide the pinkertons with an image?What was BC role in all of this?was he in on the patsy angle?After they sell up,presumably because their work is done,ethel takes a powder and goes where?Sk is pottless,where does he go next?Where does BC go next?Does he carry on his affiliation with H/H/N.Pearl baker said that Ethel spent time with BC at robbers roost.Was this patsy thing something they hatched together?
While in New york was it SK purpose to be fairly visible while ethel carried on her duties?
So what we have is BC/SK working for H/H/N group setting things up in SA? Also Ethel as the courier,presumably already connected to H/H/N?She sets in motion to find a patsy and SK fits the bill?
She uses him to escort her back and forth from SA to U.S,not only as protection,but chiefly as a red herring to divert attention away from what? The safety routes?From a person/s? Were the photographs,SK so reluctant to have taken,driven by ethel?Was it's purpose to provide the pinkertons with an image?What was BC role in all of this?was he in on the patsy angle?After they sell up,presumably because their work is done,ethel takes a powder and goes where?Sk is pottless,where does he go next?Where does BC go next?Does he carry on his affiliation with H/H/N.Pearl baker said that Ethel spent time with BC at robbers roost.Was this patsy thing something they hatched together?
While in New york was it SK purpose to be fairly visible while ethel carried on her duties?
tartan cowboy | 1:36 a.m. June 26, 2009
Another thought.
Surely SK was not so short on brain cell functioning that he wasn't aware that travelling back and forth so visibly was a dangerous affair.Was he then a willing participant in this madness? If so why? was he so besotted with ethel he would risk incarceration/death.Or is it not so much a case of unrequited love,but cold hard cash? Was he not such a criminal mastermind as to plan and implement his own robberies? did he need leadership?Perhaps when BC/EP put this plan to him he was only too glad to have a good steady wage coming in,but when it was over he was again destitute and looking to hook up with someone else? Was the trail then leading away from BC?How big a player was he with H/H/N?Did sk stay on in SA to carry on robbing with someone else?
Would still like your views on the 1936 photo proposing to be BC in the kirby book.
Surely SK was not so short on brain cell functioning that he wasn't aware that travelling back and forth so visibly was a dangerous affair.Was he then a willing participant in this madness? If so why? was he so besotted with ethel he would risk incarceration/death.Or is it not so much a case of unrequited love,but cold hard cash? Was he not such a criminal mastermind as to plan and implement his own robberies? did he need leadership?Perhaps when BC/EP put this plan to him he was only too glad to have a good steady wage coming in,but when it was over he was again destitute and looking to hook up with someone else? Was the trail then leading away from BC?How big a player was he with H/H/N?Did sk stay on in SA to carry on robbing with someone else?
Would still like your views on the 1936 photo proposing to be BC in the kirby book.
Butch | 8:01 a.m. June 26, 2009
TCB:
You certainly asked a lot of interesting questions. I'll do my best to answer them by way of stating my opinions based upon my deductive reasoning from assumed or established facts. Please remember my use of the word "opinions".
1.) If Harry is a Red Herring then I deduce that he was cast in that role on or before November 1, 1900 at Slater, CO, when he and Butch were at McIntosh's complex saying goodbye to Gillespie and the other Little Snake Valley men. Since "Ethel" is apparently not present, she couldn't have been one of the instigators of Harry's role as Red Herring. Then too, because Gillespie received her photograph with Harry, if "Ethel" were a local girl she would have been recognized by someone in Routt County, CO or Carbon County, WY. Therefore "Ethel" must be foreign to those parts. That would be consistent with "Ethel" showing up for the first time post Fort Worth and either in Buffalo or NYC.
Continued .........
You certainly asked a lot of interesting questions. I'll do my best to answer them by way of stating my opinions based upon my deductive reasoning from assumed or established facts. Please remember my use of the word "opinions".
1.) If Harry is a Red Herring then I deduce that he was cast in that role on or before November 1, 1900 at Slater, CO, when he and Butch were at McIntosh's complex saying goodbye to Gillespie and the other Little Snake Valley men. Since "Ethel" is apparently not present, she couldn't have been one of the instigators of Harry's role as Red Herring. Then too, because Gillespie received her photograph with Harry, if "Ethel" were a local girl she would have been recognized by someone in Routt County, CO or Carbon County, WY. Therefore "Ethel" must be foreign to those parts. That would be consistent with "Ethel" showing up for the first time post Fort Worth and either in Buffalo or NYC.
Continued .........
Butch | 8:15 a.m. June 26, 2009
2.) If Harry is The Red Herring on or before November 1, 1900, and if his trail
begins on the Little Snake and then to TX, NY, and SA is clearly marked, I
deduce that the place Harry is leading us away from is WY and CO, and that the
people he is leading us away from are the cattlemen and associated gang members
in those locations.
3.)It would not be reasonable for Harry to volunteer to be the Red Herring and run the risk of apprehension and/or death. Therefore, I deduce that Harry was coerced into that role. Coercion could come from threatening to "finger" Harry for the Winnemucca bank job and refusing to alibi him for the Belle Fourche bank job. Remember that although Harry had an alibi for Belle Fourche he chose to escape jail. Had he gone to trial and subpoenaed his witnesses, he would have been found not guilty as was Tom O'Day --Punteney was not brought to trial. But then, that would have drawn attention to people at Little Snake, the locus of his alibi witnesses. This is the first instance of Little Snake men not wanting to be identified.
3.)It would not be reasonable for Harry to volunteer to be the Red Herring and run the risk of apprehension and/or death. Therefore, I deduce that Harry was coerced into that role. Coercion could come from threatening to "finger" Harry for the Winnemucca bank job and refusing to alibi him for the Belle Fourche bank job. Remember that although Harry had an alibi for Belle Fourche he chose to escape jail. Had he gone to trial and subpoenaed his witnesses, he would have been found not guilty as was Tom O'Day --Punteney was not brought to trial. But then, that would have drawn attention to people at Little Snake, the locus of his alibi witnesses. This is the first instance of Little Snake men not wanting to be identified.
Butch | 8:29 a.m. June 26, 2009
If Harry told Gillespie the truth about not being involved in robberies, and if
he was truthful to his friend that he was broke, then I deduce that Harry was
wrongfully "framed" for the Winnemucca Bank job. If so, I deduce that
framing Harry was additional coercion to become Harry The Red Herring. His
choice would be, in effect, a certain life sentence or at least a chance of
getting away, if he performed his role faithfully. A limited choice is better
than none at all.
4.) It ought not matter to either the H/N/N group and their financiers if Harry leads law enforcement away from Little Sanke or not. They are in the business of robbing entire Latin American countries, penalties for which, of course, will never be paid. To that end our three amigos have the protection of vice-counsel Newberry at the entrance point to SA, and the protection of vice-counsel Aller and Charge d Affairs Benson at the exit point. You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure out that Butch, Harry, and Ethel are traveling in some very powerful international company.
4.) It ought not matter to either the H/N/N group and their financiers if Harry leads law enforcement away from Little Sanke or not. They are in the business of robbing entire Latin American countries, penalties for which, of course, will never be paid. To that end our three amigos have the protection of vice-counsel Newberry at the entrance point to SA, and the protection of vice-counsel Aller and Charge d Affairs Benson at the exit point. You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure out that Butch, Harry, and Ethel are traveling in some very powerful international company.
Anonymous | 8:33 a.m. June 26, 2009
Mr. Tartan Cowboy:
You might want to ask Ed Kirby direct about the picture you question, that is on page 107 of his Saga book. The last e/m add I had for him was (sundance2@earthlink.net) That has been a few years ago. In my last conversation with Mr. Kirby, he indicated he was getting into other areas.
I believe you will eventually learn, as some other poster said, there are three pictures of RLP or Butch Cassidy....mug shot, Ft. Worth photo and the cabin picture in SA. Yes there are many, many other pictures that different ones claim to be Butch. There are even some who claim to know where he is buried. The number of these picture and burial site claims are roughly equal. Do you think, with the close relationship with Butch's sister Lula, that Kirby had, they might have discussed this point? Believe what you wish.
A bit back, it was mentioned, each time something is written about history, it is changed, when of course, original reality does not.
You might want to ask Ed Kirby direct about the picture you question, that is on page 107 of his Saga book. The last e/m add I had for him was (sundance2@earthlink.net) That has been a few years ago. In my last conversation with Mr. Kirby, he indicated he was getting into other areas.
I believe you will eventually learn, as some other poster said, there are three pictures of RLP or Butch Cassidy....mug shot, Ft. Worth photo and the cabin picture in SA. Yes there are many, many other pictures that different ones claim to be Butch. There are even some who claim to know where he is buried. The number of these picture and burial site claims are roughly equal. Do you think, with the close relationship with Butch's sister Lula, that Kirby had, they might have discussed this point? Believe what you wish.
A bit back, it was mentioned, each time something is written about history, it is changed, when of course, original reality does not.
Butch | 8:43 a.m. June 26, 2009
5.)Once the "Mission Accomplished" flag is raised, Ethel's job is
finished because the International Cattle combine can ship cattle 150 miles to
Chile as opposed to 1600 miles to BA. This presupposes that Ethel is the finance
representative for the combine. Evidence of this is Ms Ernst's discovery of
the passenger manifest for Ms. E. Place, arriving NY from Colon on July 29,
1905, which corresponds to Harry's June 28, 1905 letter of farewell from
Chile. What we know of Ethel is that she was with Harry in January, 1901, in
Buffalo, at the Pierce Invalides Hotel, and subsequently in NYC between Febuary
1 and February 20, 1901. Well, there actually was an Ethel Place, born in NY
state in April, 1879. That would fit the age of "Ethel Place" to a
'T'. Her father, Charles T. Place was a wealthy "Manager" of
a publicly held corporation. What is more, Ethel Place was single into 1910, and
was a professional nurse, which means she would have had knowledge of the Pierce
Medical Clinic in her home state. Ever wonder how Harry and a Texas Hooker would
have known about the high-falutin' Pierce clinic?
Continued .............
Continued .............
Anonymous | 8:50 a.m. June 26, 2009
"Harry had an alibi for Belle Fourche he chose to escape jail. Had he gone
to trial and subpoenaed his witnesses, he would have been found not guilty as
was Tom O'Day --Punteney was not brought to trial." Butch states.
Butch are you sure of this? Some say O'Day and Punteney were both tried for the Belle Fourche robbery. They were both acquitted. Whether them not being in on the robbery had anything to do with the verdict, I don't know.
Butch are you sure of this? Some say O'Day and Punteney were both tried for the Belle Fourche robbery. They were both acquitted. Whether them not being in on the robbery had anything to do with the verdict, I don't know.
Butch | 8:54 a.m. June 26, 2009
Finally, Butch and Harry come full circle and show up back where they started in
Carbon County in 1908. Harry is with Bert Charter, and Butch is wandering about
Rawlins, unmolested. Why? The Nevada and South Dakota Statutes of Limitations
have tolled, and neither man could be convicted of any crime. Neat, isn't
it?
One final thing. "Ethel" Place is transformed into "Etta Place" in 1906. Remember that Olin Emmery said that Mrs. Charter and Mary Calvert Lay knew "Etta Place" in Fort Duchesne? Was Etta Place the girl that Harry left behind and then re-united with when he was free of coercion? Was "Ethel Place" Harry The Red Herring's "leash". Do we have Etta Place I and Etta Place II?
Parting Week-end Shot. Butch's SA alias was James P. Ryan. James P. Ryan was the Sheriff who arrested Harry in 1887 and locked him up at Sundance, WY. Was Butch Harry The Red Herring's "Jailor", a constant reminder that if he stepped out of his assigned role he would spend the rest of his natural life behind bars?
One final thing. "Ethel" Place is transformed into "Etta Place" in 1906. Remember that Olin Emmery said that Mrs. Charter and Mary Calvert Lay knew "Etta Place" in Fort Duchesne? Was Etta Place the girl that Harry left behind and then re-united with when he was free of coercion? Was "Ethel Place" Harry The Red Herring's "leash". Do we have Etta Place I and Etta Place II?
Parting Week-end Shot. Butch's SA alias was James P. Ryan. James P. Ryan was the Sheriff who arrested Harry in 1887 and locked him up at Sundance, WY. Was Butch Harry The Red Herring's "Jailor", a constant reminder that if he stepped out of his assigned role he would spend the rest of his natural life behind bars?
Butch | 9:19 a.m. June 26, 2009
Anonymous:
Well, I'm pretty sure. I had the help of Doug Engebretsen, author of "Empty Saddles, Forgotten Names", his wife Pat at the Belle Fourche Libray, the staff of the Adams House and Museum in Deadwood, and the staff of the South Dakota archives in Piere. What the Cherokee and I came up with were the newspaper reports of the day that, to sum up, said that O'Day was tried and acquitted (as opposed to found "Not Guilty") which so disgusted the authorities they elected not to put Punteney on trial. It makes sense since the evidence against O'Day's participation in the robbery was much stronger than for Punteney. O'Day was captured at Belle Fourche immediately after the robbery.
By the way, I'd like to plug Doug's book. I think it is the best in print on Belle Fourche, and the history of the area running up to Miles City. Doug is one of the best investigators I know and he writes with precision, knowledge, and spell-binding prose. I think it belongs in everyone's library.
Well, I'm pretty sure. I had the help of Doug Engebretsen, author of "Empty Saddles, Forgotten Names", his wife Pat at the Belle Fourche Libray, the staff of the Adams House and Museum in Deadwood, and the staff of the South Dakota archives in Piere. What the Cherokee and I came up with were the newspaper reports of the day that, to sum up, said that O'Day was tried and acquitted (as opposed to found "Not Guilty") which so disgusted the authorities they elected not to put Punteney on trial. It makes sense since the evidence against O'Day's participation in the robbery was much stronger than for Punteney. O'Day was captured at Belle Fourche immediately after the robbery.
By the way, I'd like to plug Doug's book. I think it is the best in print on Belle Fourche, and the history of the area running up to Miles City. Doug is one of the best investigators I know and he writes with precision, knowledge, and spell-binding prose. I think it belongs in everyone's library.
jimlyn | 10:47 a.m. June 26, 2009
The family of Ethel Place, daughter of Charles T Place, was not The Ethel
Place.That family,daughter and grandaughter, would like to be left alone.BTW,
she did not become a nurse until 1911.
Add your comment
Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.
Words Remaining
E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.
- New plans for Sandy Proscenium land 3:27 p.m.
- Holladay development appeal denied 2:59 p.m.
- BYU bug to aid in soil clean up 2:50 p.m.
- Provo council members say goodbye 2:49 p.m.
- Rancher run over by tractor, injured 2:45 p.m.
- Stronger retail boost stocks 2:44 p.m.
- Snow hampers missing mom search 2:24 p.m.
- Gun laws becoming more loose 2:16 p.m.
- Drug combo improves cancer survival 2:13 p.m.
- Cable falls on I-80; lanes reopened 2:11 p.m.
- Letters: Global warming a lie
272 - TCU to play Boise in Fiesta Bowl207
- BYU football: Bronco weighs in on Hall195
- Palin signs books, chats with fans169
- Utah/BYU rivalry can be more civil151
- Cougars going back to Vegas150
- Andersen apologizes for Jordan hoax143
- Nude bathers cited for lewdness134
- Max Hall wants to look ahead130
- Jazz fall apart late at L.A.110
David Rankin, one of Utah's youngest and ablest astrophotographers has...
There was a time when free shipping was rare. This holiday season, you...
Love him or hate him, Utah Sen. Orrin Hatch knows how to get attention.
Latest comments
Nice try. I never said there weren't good arguments against depleted...
RE: Dennis Look at "list of countries by firearm-related death rate" on...
How come no one explains how these teams are picked? I know a player that 2...
I am a-shamed of this Dr Skeem, pronounced scheme by coincidence. She is...
Libs always name call. Thats all they have in their tank. If we can make...
for the NCAA to put a ban on coaches' hirings until after the bowls. If that...
I for one do not want to see them get their million dollar bonuses until they...
Waterboard this guy, if he truly does not know. Say your sorry.....
I agree -- the children can verify whether they were sleeping, went camping...
You sit at the childrens table don't you Fred? Just a guess.
Advertisements
Also why was he,Harry,travelling back and forth from S.A. to the United States while Butch sat in comfort and safety?
Would the person like to expand on their questions? Where are you going with this?Does anyone know where this blogger is going with this?
There is a supposed photograph of Butch Cassidy at the Horse Creek cabin circa 1889/90,and another one i remember seeing,though can't remember where,with Butch standing beside a horse,but not the alleged teenage photo from the Lady Belle website.I'll try to locate this and post back.