Deseret News | Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?

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Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?

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Butch | 6:18 p.m. June 4, 2009

TCB:

I think the system has some problems. I had suggested James Kirton Hutcheon as your first target. He was born in 1882 near Dyce and died in 1924 in Edinburgh. In between he went to Bolivia and became one of Butch's close friends. He had a half-brother, Enrique who was half Bolivian and half Scot. I don't know if there were other siblings or if Hutcheon followed a parent to Bolivia.

If this gets through, I think we're back on track.

Anonymous | 7:08 p.m. June 4, 2009

"As a general rule, whenever Mr. Buck becomes aware of a request for assistance he responds promptly and generously." From Mr. Iverson.

Come on Mr. I, this is supposed to be a source of factual information.

Butch | 7:34 p.m. June 4, 2009

Marilyn:

What an unpleasant surprise to hear from you! Still trying to come up with one intelligent thought and express it with some degree of articulation, I see.
Keep trying, you're not there yet.

As long as you've turned up again, I have a question for you:

If, as you contend, Bill Long sustained a leg wound at Cortez, Colorado in the spring of 1891, isn't he excluded from being Harry Longabaugh by virture of the fact that Harry was in Canada between 1890 and 1892?

Now run along and work on your article like a good girl.

Comments continue below

Kid Charter | 9:34 a.m. June 5, 2009

Regrettably, I believe we can write off the Bulldog saloon photo, I guess it was only fitting that I would be the one to discover an unknown copy of the photo, with identifying names that match up with local men living in Rawlins, dating the photo about 1906. Although a Ryan and Charter are in the photo, there not Jack Ryan and Bert Charter. I was absolutely convinced that the photograph was authentic. In researching the photo, I found that Jack Ryan had not opened a saloon in Baggs until the summer of 1895, making the 13 year old boy identified as Bert Charter 22 and Kid Charter 20. Although, I have been told that my conclusions about the Bulldog saloon photo have not been proved, it certainly creates doubt about the authenticity of the Bulldog photo. The 13 year old boy identified as Bert Charter was undoubtedly Bert Charter's half brother, Reuben Wilbur, known as Babe Charter in Rawlins, because Bert Charter was named guardian after the death of his parents, Babe Wilbur would have been 13, in 1906. Jack Ryan's brother, Tom Ryan is also in the photo.

Book? | 10:34 a.m. June 5, 2009

I've become quite interested in this story thanks to your blogging. What was the outcome of the DNA testing and what is the best book to read about Butch and Sundance. Thanks

Butch | 12:25 p.m. June 5, 2009

TCB:
My copy of O'Neill's "Outlaws" arrived today and I looked at the 1910 photo. I was previously aware of that particular photo. In my opinion, the photo in question isn't Butch. My opinion --stress opinion-- is based on my view that the jowels aren't "bull dog" enough to be Butch. So much for "opinion". I haven't got a single fact to back up my opinion, and I'll wager others will have an opinion different than mine.

Photo identification is, I find, a very tricky undertaking. It is difficult to get a definative identification that will hold up under scrutiny and detailed research.

Please carefully read Kid Charter's blog on identification of the purported Bulldog Saloon Photo. When the Kid says he thought one thing about a photo at one time, worked on it, and reached a different conclusion, you better believe that photo identification is one tricky business.

Thanks for putting me on to "Outlaws". It looks like I'll be up late reading it. As long as you have me losing sleep, let me repay the favor.

Get a copy of John Rolfe Burroughs "Where the Old West Sayed Young."

Butch | 12:33 p.m. June 5, 2009

Book?:

Welcome to the blog. I think there ought to be a warning here that goes something like: "Warning! This blog and its subject are addictive!"

For Butch Cassidy, try Richard Patterson's "Butch Cassidy: A Biography"

For Sundance try either of Donna Ernst's books, "Sundance, My Uncle" or "The Sundance Kid"

For the San Vicente controversy, try Anne Meadows "Digging Up Butch and Sundance"

I hope you'll blog back and let us know what you think.

Ms. Help | 1:31 p.m. June 5, 2009

Book, I am sure Mr. Butch did not mean to leave out the book written by Mr. Parker's sister. BUTCH CASSIDY, MY BROTHER, by Lula Parker Betenson and Dora Flack. It is one of Dan Buck's favorites.

Enjoy. There are, of course, many, many more.

M H

Butch | 2:24 p.m. June 5, 2009

Ah, Bobby:

Yes, of course, your favorite, "Butch Cassidy, My Brother"! I thought Book? was looking for one or a few books just to get started, hence my reccomendations. Ms Betenson's material is covered in Patterson's text, is latter in time of publication, and contains a good deal of previously unpublished material. If you don't believe that is accurate, why don't you have someone read it to you?

Anonymous | 3:07 p.m. June 5, 2009

Ah Butchie:

Is Marilyn getting under your skin, you seem a little "testy". Or are you just trying to make friends? Or are you trying to say, you do your "own" reading?

Ah, Ms. Bobbie

Passing By | 3:31 p.m. June 5, 2009

From a distance Butch, you seem rather touchy, when a poster suggests a book you did not list. It also would appear to be childish to insult one's reading ability. If you don't like what you say being criticized, possibly you need to consider, not saying it. Even non-readers are entitled to their opinion.

PB

Butch | 4:04 p.m. June 5, 2009

Bobby:

Still trying to stir the pot without a spoon? Well, Bob, why not do something completely out of character for you and blog about an issue, a fact you've uncovered, or an insight you've made? Better yet, why don't you treat all of us to a rendition of the famous "Hanksville Coin Trick" you tried? When you blew it, a good chunck of Utah is still laughing and telling the story. My point is, you never contribute a single thing to anyone's efforts on the Wild Bunch. Everything you do is only for the purpose of sticking a fork in the wheel of discovery by launching personal attacks. I find you tiresome.

Passing By:

Have we met? Maybe not.
"If you knew Bobby,
like I know Bobby,
Oh, Oh, Oh what a Pill!"

I guess you'd have to meet Bobby to fully understand.

I hope you pass by again when the blog is discussing something of value.

Pixie | 4:27 p.m. June 5, 2009

Butch:

I think you and I were both at Blondis when BE told about the coin trick. Am I right? Yes, I'm still laughing.

Would you mind getting back to the Wild Bunch? I'd like to read more about the Frank Dimaio notebook entry you and TCB were discussing. Thanks.

tartan cowboy | 4:31 p.m. June 5, 2009

Butch. re the hutcheon research, i'll do my best,may take a while.
Re the o'neill book,don't spend to much sleepless nights over it,it's not that insightful,but has it's humerous moments'and he is afellow scot after all.
thanks for your input on the 19.10 photo,can't totally agree with you on that one, think the likeness is uncanny,but like you have no proof.it's all about opinions'
mrs tartan cowboy says hello.she is scoffing saying am " going to be a private dick now?" she is thoroughly enjoying reading the blog,especially the "bitching".
a warm welcome from to all new bloggers from one new one.

Anonymous | 5:00 p.m. June 5, 2009

Better yet, why don't you treat all of us to a rendition of the famous "Hanksville Coin Trick" you tried?

Ah Butch, could I buy a vowel? Are you confronting Marilyn, Bob,Jerry, Bobby, M&M, or just grabbing straws. You may get it right yet. If I were the "unreading Bobby", and also can't hear, pray tell how I am to learn , like you, and make a report. Can't wait to learn about your "coin trick".

Butch | 5:38 p.m. June 5, 2009

That unbalanced situation seemed to persist until the 6 year Nevada Statute of Limitations tolled when Butch seemed to be everywhere, UT, WY, TX, and NM.

Post 1909, there are repeated reports about Butch, but very few about Harry. Why? If both Harry and Butch were in Carbon County in 1909, it means they both survived SA. What happened to Harry? What happened to Ethel? If olin Emery, a Sheriff is correct, then "Ethel" Place as "Etta" Place was in Price, Utah post 1910 when Mary Calvert was Mrs. Elzy Lay. Again, if Harry and Ethel are husband and wife, and Harry is on the Little Snake in 1909, where is he in post 1910?

I wish I had more answers and fewer dumb questions for you Pixie. I sure my fellow bloggers can provide some fresh looks, new thoughts, and maybe some answers.

Butch | 5:52 p.m. June 5, 2009

TCB:

Question regarding the 1910 photo. If it is indeed Butch, would that mean that he fell on hard times and had to work a RR section gang?

On the James Kirton Hutcheon hunt, I suggest you have fun trying your hand at the "private eye" routine. As for the Missus, you might try what I did, which was to remind her that, aside from Sherlock Holmes, every Private Eye worth a darn had a bombshell of a female partner. The Cherokee looked at my sleuthing in a whole new light, being rather flattered that I wanted her to partner up in the game. From that time to this we're pals on the case.

Other spousal partners are Dan Buck and Anne Meadows, and Jerry and Belle Nickle. I know for a fact that Pixie, Barbarella, and Ancient Mariner have spouses, and they are in the game.

The Cherokee sends her warm greetings to you and Mrs. TCB, a sentiment with which I wholeheartedly agree.

Butch | 6:00 p.m. June 5, 2009

Pixie:

I remember you very well. Thanks for your help picking out the hat. I have it still.

I think my Bonny Scot Pal, TCB, will be easily persuaded to continue our discussion of the Frank Dimaio notebook entries.

What I found of special interest in Dimaio's entry regarding the purported mail cover on Samanna was that, if I got my calendar straight, Harry mailed two letters on or about February 25, 1902, with one letter going to Samanna and the other letter going to David Gillespie. The result of these letters was that the Pinkertons and law enforcement officers were not only put on Harry's trail and Buffalo and NYC, but they then knew Harry's coountry of refuge --Argentina.

I don't believe Harry was an irrational person, however, writing those two letters, shortly before he got on a boat with alias Ethel Place bound for NYC, seems very irrational. Whenever a rational person does something irrational --diametrically opposed to their self interest -- I want to know why.

All of this links to my questions regarding Harry going from being camera shy in 1897 to a regular camera "hog" 1900 and following. Why?

Continued .......

Butch | 6:04 p.m. June 5, 2009

The same applies to the question of Harry being flush with cash and living grand whenever in the company of Butch and Ethel but being desperately poor when neither is around. Why is that?

Ghosttown Bob offered the suggestion that Harry spent all his money living large and settled a large sum on Ethel circa 1905. That may be, however, the same didn't seem to be the case with Butch who not only lived well but prospered well into 1909 if we give full credence to the 1908 and 1909 Pinkerton reports and if there is any weight to my argument that Butch was heavily involved in the 1910-1920 Rickard/Nichols/Farquart Rio Paraguay cattle venture. What accounts for the difference between the two? Was Butch merely a better money manager, or did he have access to funds Harry didn't have?

Then too, why was Harry the one who left the safety of SA and kept escorting Ethel back and forth, taking the risk of discovery and apprehension while Butch loafed around in perfect safety?

Continued ......

tartan cowboy | 1:46 a.m. June 6, 2009

Pixie: the Dimaio reports are,i agree very intresting and requires further discussion.
Butch:re 1910 photo.I'm not suggesting it is butch,we all have dopplegangers,but just that there is avery strong resemblance and perhaps the origin of the photo should be looked into.perhaps mr bettenson would firnish us with details.re the working on the railroad.Didn't BC/SK and others of their ilk when inbetween "jobs" indulge in some "honest graft" as we say over here?
What do the pinkertons report on BC 1908/09?
The whole camera shy/financial issue with SK is interesting would like to hear more.Your continued blog seems to have vanished into the ether.

Bob Jayne | 1:38 p.m. June 6, 2009

My apologies to all, as I reply to BI.
The coin that brought you (and others) so much laughter. I called your BE, as I recalled nothing about it. After BE explained what she remembered, sorry I still didnt recall. But if my not finding a coin in 8 days of luggage brings you a smile, so be it.
Contribution. Yes I could bore all with the many books Ive read. Others have too. My opinions would be no better than anyones. What I could have provided, that most would enjoy, is the communication and meeting members of the Parker/Betenson families. Lulas daughter, Bill and his Mom and Dad, and recently talking with Butchs brother Dan Parkers, Grandson. A nice man. But we know where that would lead. They do too.
I do recall a few years ago, when Jerry introduced you to a small group we had. It was fun for a while. Then someone tried to bully us. I think we all left.

tartan cowboy | 4:18 p.m. June 6, 2009

how many photos do we have of BC? i know of the laramie, the fort worth ,and two from SA.is there any more,and where can i view them?
same question for SK,i know the fort worth, the de young and two? from SA.is there any more and again where can i view them?
seems to be a very quiet day today.is this some kind of holiday in the states?
Butch: mrs tartan cowboy,and tartan cowboy junior says hello to you and cherokee,hope you are all well.

Anonymous | 7:13 p.m. June 6, 2009

There is a photograph of Butch Cassidy and Burt Charter on page 57 in Anne Charters Cowboys Dont Walk. This photo was taken in New York City in 1902.

Kid Charter | 7:46 a.m. June 8, 2009

Butch, The famed Charter Pistol
According to Olin Emery's 1980 letter to True West, the famed Charter Pistol, a .38-40 single action Colt, serial no. 151179, originally was made to order for Black Jack Ketchum and delivered to El Paso, TX. After Black Jack was hung, George West Musgrave obtained the gun. Musgrave married Jano Magor, sister to Maud Magor, Bert Charter's wife. Shortly after the marriage, Musgrave, fleeing a murder warrant, gave the Colt to Bert Charter to secure a $150 debt.

Olin Emery's 1980 letter to True West, was a rebuttal to Boyd Charter's claim that his father Bert Charter had been an outlaw. In 1945, while Boyd Charter was serving in the United States Navy, his mother, Maud Charter, was convinced that Boyd would not return alive. Boyd felt that in his absence, Olin Emery had influenced his mother, to sell the Spring Gulch Ranch, at Jackson Hole, all of Boyd's personal belongings, burn all of Bert Charter's photo albums, letter's and personal documents, she gave Olin Emery the 38-40 pistol that had been promised to Boyd Charter.
Continued.

Kid Charter | 7:48 a.m. June 8, 2009

When Boyd Charter returned home after the war, he demanded that the pistol be returned to him, as the rightful heir, only after Boyd threatened legal action, did Olin return the pistol. Neither man liked one another from that point on. Olin Emery went on to say that Bert Charter had never been an outlaw, or involved with Butch Cassidy as an outlaw. He described how Bert and his parents first lived in Grand Junction, Colorado. Olin Emery was either mislead by his father-in-law, Bert Charter, or purposely distorted the documented facts.

Martha Charter and her three sons, Robert Henry "Bert" Charter, Ernest Gaylord "Kid" Charter and Wade Clark Charter, arrived at the home of her father, Charles Hughes, in Dixon, the summer of 1887. Her husband, Albert Charter, had abandoned her and the children in Iowa. The older daughter, Mary Mamie Charter died in Iowa, in 1885. Martha Charter gave birth to Arlie Hughes Charter, in Rawlins, on December 6, 1887. Bert Charter and Kid Charter worked for Charles Perkins in Dixon and later for various ranchers in the Snake river valley.
Continued.

Kid Charter | 7:49 a.m. June 8, 2009

In the early years, Martha Charter, was destitute and worked at various jobs in both Rawlins and Dixon, to support the family, including one year for Charles Perkins at his mercantile store in Dixon. Martha Charter obtained a divorce from Albert E. Charter in Manchester, Iowa, in May 1890. On June 21, 1892, Martha Charter married Reuben Henry Wilbur in Rawlins, Wyoming. Reuben Wilbur was army quartermaster agent at Rawlins. On February 21, 1893, Martha Reuben gave birth to Reuben Henry Wilbur Jr., in Rawlins. That same year, Reuben Wilbur Sr. was reassigned as army quartermaster agent at Fort Duchense, Utah, where he served until his retirement in 1896, they then moved to Grand Junction, Colorado, where Reuben died in 1898 and Martha in 1901. Documented fact.
According to what Bert Charter told his immediate family of the pistol, a .38-40 single action Colt, serial no. 151179, had belonged to Harry Longabaugh. There are no confirmed reports that the pistol was special ordered by Tom Black Jack Ketchum in the latter 1890s. The question is, was Olin Emery also wrong about the original owner of the pistol?

Autumn | 9:32 a.m. June 8, 2009

Wow this is so cute, you guys snipe like 12 year old girls at a slumber party. Brings me back to my middle school days. So, who is dating who, and who's the skank that totally held his hand in the hallway?

Kid Charter | 10:08 a.m. June 8, 2009

Olin Emery's 1980 letter to True West, was a rebuttal to Boyd Charter's claim that his father Bert Charter had been an outlaw. In 1945, while Boyd Charter was serving in the United States Navy, his mother, Maud Charter, was convinced that Boyd would not return alive. Boyd felt that in his absence, Olin Emery had influenced his mother, to sell the Spring Gulch Ranch, at Jackson Hole, all of Boyd's personal belongings, burn all of Bert Charter's photo albums, letter's and personal documents, she gave Olin Emery the 38-40 pistol that had been promised to Boyd Charter. It would not be the least bit surprising to those of us, who know anything about Bert and Kid Charter, that Olen Emery probably was not told and therefore did not know the truth about Bert Charters early days as an outlaw. The Charters maintained a strict code of silence, and Olin Emery would have been considered an outsider, even though, he married into the family. There is also the possibility that Emery knew, but having been a sheriff, did not want it known that his own father-in-law had been an outlaw.

Kid Charter | 2:52 p.m. June 8, 2009

Butch
The famed Charter Pistol 38-40 single action Colt, serial no. 151179, owned and in the possession of the Montana, Charters.

Colts Manufacturing Company, Inc. March 5, 2004
Colt, by means of this letter, is proud to authenticate the manufacture of the Colt firearm with the following serial number:
Colt Single Action Army Revolver.
Serial Number: 151179
Caliber: 38/40
Barrel Length: 4
Finish: Nickel
Type of Stocks: Pearl
Factory Engraved: Yes
Shipped To: Roberts, Willis & Taylor Company
Address: Sherman, Texas
Date of Shipment: June 15, 1893
Number of Same Type
Guns in Shipment: 1

We trust you will find the historical information, retrieved from the original Colt shipping records, to be of interest.

Sincerely.
Kathleen J. Hoyt.
Historian.

As any linguist can tell... | 9:54 a.m. June 12, 2009

Butch is actually about 60 percent of all the different names used on this comment board. A simple analysis of the syntax shows that the same person is speaking under different names. I wonder what the purpose is and why go to such an effort when the audience is so small that it is of no consequence in the scheme of things... unless one wishes to get under someone's skin. Hmmmmm.

Ms. G.R | 4:40 p.m. June 12, 2009

Thank you Linguist. It is because he is afraid that Bill Long will be proven to Be Harry Longabaugh. He is even more afraid that he will not have any control over it.

Your Favorite Mouse | 5:06 p.m. June 12, 2009

It is a shock to learn Mr. Iverson is so well known. Way to go Butch.

YFM

Anonymous | 6:30 a.m. June 13, 2009

Why do our "experts" tend to go away at the appearance of facts?

Butch | 12:30 p.m. June 14, 2009

Kid Charter:

I just arrived back from the Foggy Bottom mission. Do you have any information on the .45 Colt Olin Emery talked about as being either a companion weapon or odered by Black Jack Ketchum? Emery's discussion is the only information I have ever seen about this weapon.

tartan cowboy | 11:21 a.m. June 16, 2009

anonymous: thanx for the heads up on the book "Cowboys don't walk" tried to buy it from amazon but it couldn't be shipped to uk for some reason,so haven't seen the photo of BC with charter.is it authentic? are there any other authentic photos that i'm not aware of?
I also read somewhere about a possible photo of an older BC in an Ed Kirby book.Any one have any comments on this? which book is it?
i know it's not the most important area in finding any historical facts,but i'm a very visual person and have a certain artistic streak to feed,so all info on photos on BC/SK would be good.
Any news on the DNA?

Anonymous | 3:17 p.m. June 16, 2009

There is a photo of Butch Cassidy and George Bullock in Doris Burtons Queen Ann Bassett alias Etta Place. The book is now out of print. It appears to be a photo of a teenage Butch Cassidy standing with George Bullock sitting. They are wearing cowboy garb. The photo was taken in Salt Lake City.
Kirbys book has a the well known Butch Cassidy Prison photograph.

Anonymous | 4:03 p.m. June 16, 2009

Most have told me there are three authentic pictures of Butch Cassidy. The prison mug shot, Ft. Worth and the photo in So. Am. The rest maybe just wanted to be.

Anonymous | 7:13 p.m. June 16, 2009

Who were the experts that authenticated only three photographs? Why did they not find the Charter and Burton photographs authentic? I suspect the they do no not believe the Charter photograph is authentic because it would make their theory of Butch being in Argentina in 1901 wrong. What other reason is there? The Charter photograph was taken in New York City Feb 1902. Butch had this photograph taken shortly before he left New York for Argentina for his first time. He arrived in Burnos Aires and filed for land at the government office April 3, 1902.
The experts did not discover the Burton Photograph so they ignore it. Only the experts make discoveries.

Grow Up | 12:19 p.m. June 17, 2009

I dont agree with Buck and Meadows theory regarding death in San Vincente, but theyve devoted as much time, money, effort and serious and ethical research into this mystery as any of you. If you want the truth about Cassidy, act like responsible researchers and consider all angles with an open mind. I come out looking for valuable informationand its herebut its buried in a compost heap of peanut-brained insult.

Kid Lutefisk,
(computers were instruments of the devil, a fad, and [will] soon go away) What are you using to communicate with on this forum?

Kid Lutefisk,
(In defense of Jerry Nickle I would like to say that I personally know the man to be possessed of a character beyond reproach. Along that line, I believe it to be entirely unfair of all of us to demand that Jerry reveal the crux of his position) Isnt this what youre expecting of Buck?

Driftwood (Dont complain about Bucks bilingual abilities. If you want the facts, learn Spanishlike hes doneand stop whining.)

Contd.

Grow Up 2 | 12:20 p.m. June 17, 2009

Anonymous ( Ms Meadows does not use a single Chapter Note, Foot Note, or End Note. Not one, and that is a fact) Are we reading the same book? Those little numbers at the ends of sentences. Those are called "end notes." E-N-D-N-O-T-E-S. Say it with me

Jerry Nickle (The best primary source is Charles Siringo..) This seems to contradict other comments posted about Pinkerton information being at best secondary.

How does it feel to be insulted simply for stating your opinion? If this were the Wild Bunch, you'd at best be a bunch of Gunplay Maxwells.

Photos Online? | 12:24 p.m. June 17, 2009

Anonymous,

This information about the alleged photo of Cassidy and Bullock is fascinating.Do you know if anyone has it posted online? Or the Charter and Burton photos?

Butch | 7:24 a.m. June 18, 2009

Grow Up:

1.) The copy I have of "Digging Up Butch & Sundance" by Anne Meadows is the 1996 edition of the 1994 original issue, Revised Edition. My copy contains no footnotes, chapter notes, or end notes. Are you telling us that a subsequent edition of Ms Meadows book contains end notes? If so, that would be a most valuable addition to the literature. Please tell us which edition you have that contains end notes.

2.)Ms Meadows and Mr Buck have published one book and numerous articles regarding Butch and Sundance in South America. Because they have published they are "fair game" for criticism, as any authors would be. Jerry Nickle has not yet published nor has his film been released, and therefore the only material we have for critical review and discussion is that which appears on this blog. The "crux" of Jerry's argument --DNA comparison -- has not been released. Release of the results of the comparison before release of the book/film would, I imagine, seriously depreciate the revenue from those properties.

Continued ..............

Butch | 7:40 a.m. June 18, 2009

On the other hand, when Jerry and/or members of his team blog, for example, that the Pinkerton reports of 1900-1901 are "forgeries", I believe it is entirely fair to challenge the statement, and it most certainly is fair and resonable to discuss the matter.

3.) Your point regarding the practice on this blog of engaging in personal attacks is well taken, and I find myself in complete agreement with you. I consider myself properly chastened and will not do it in the future. I enjoy the robust debate on this blog and hope we can all benefit from it. I most certainly have.

4.) The comment about computers being "instruments of the Devil" was partially tongue in cheek. In fact, I am frequently flumexed by the contraption, and, in addition, long for the days when I received letters rather than email. My attitude is no doubt influened by my advanced age. I fully understand that others have an opinion different than mine.

I found your comments interesting and stimulating. I hope we read more from you in the future.

Grow Up Now Enlightened | 1:15 p.m. June 18, 2009

Butch,

Having read this, I can safely say: I was wrong, as were my assumptions about the spirit of this blog. Excellent response and I'm better off for it. Thank you, Butch.

Looking forward to future comments.

Grow Up Now Enlightened | 1:19 p.m. June 18, 2009

I feeling a little humble now, but would like to ask if anyone knows of any online repositories or collections of alleged photographs of the Wild Bunch. I've heard rumours of photos of Doc Masson, Cassidy as a young man with George Bullock, etc., but I can't seem to locate any. And the books they appear in are either out of print or quite expensive. Any ideas?

Butch | 2:10 p.m. June 18, 2009

Grow Up:

You're more than welcome. Anything I can do to help advance the ball on this fascinating subject is what I want to do.

I'm not aware of any on-line source of a Wild Bunch photo collection. It would be nice if we had one so that we could all look at and discuss the various photos in play.

With the exception of the photographs in the Pinkerton files at the Library of Congress, most photographs are in the collections of private parties and are subject either to copyright restrictions, museum or archive regulations, or the desire of private parties to benefit financially from their ownership. Of the latter group are the three "post card" photographs of Butch and Sundance at Cholila circa 1903-1904 which are the property of Paul Ernst, Donna Ernst's husband. I'm hard pressed to find fault with a private individual's assertion of property rights and am very vigorous in my support of them.

Most museums and archived collections have a schedule of charges for the use of their material in publications or film.

Continued .........

Butch | 2:26 p.m. June 18, 2009

The theory is that an author or film maker will profit from publication or distribution and thereby recoup the cost of using the material. The same holds true for documents, letters, and in some cases newspaper articles. I'm afraid this does nothing for your original request for a convenient, cost effective way to view the photographs.

For the past two years I've advocated the idea of "Correspondent Museums" each member of which would license others in the association to display their material at no cost. Thus, each member of the group would appreciably increase their original material. Because museums and archieves are open to the public for research with a view toward benefiting the communities in which they are located,hopefully one of the members would be located reasonably close to each one of us. I've had some success with this idea. If you think this is worthwhile and of public benefit, I hope you will advocate the idea.

Once you get into the verification of photographs relative to the Wild Bunch, I must warn you that you are about to enter a sort of twilight zone where reality is quite often distorted.

Continued ........

Butch | 2:45 p.m. June 18, 2009

Free Photos:

1.) The Fort Worth Five is the photo at the top of this blog. The original is in the Pinkerton files at the Library of Congress, and not subject to copyright restrictions.

2.) The DeYoung photo of Sundance and Etta, February, 1901, is also in the LOC.

3.)The Wedding Photo of Kid Curry and Annie Rogers is also in the Pinkerton files at LOC.

4.)Butch Cassidy's "Mug Shot" from the Laramie Penitentary is also in the Pinkerton files at LOC, however, the Wyoming Cultural Resources Center claims ownership of the original photograph. You can copy and distribute the photo from Butch's PNDA card.

5.) You can look at a photo collection of relevance on line at the Utah State Archive in Salt Lake City.

6.) The Hobo Photo of Kid Curry, and the "booking photos" of Tom O'Day and Walt Punteney are available for viewing to researchers at the Adams House and Museum in Deadwood, South Dakota.

So far as I know, these are the only "for free" photos available to a citizen. Unfortunately, unless my idea of corresponddent museums takes hold, a lot of travel is involved.

I hope this helps.

Horse Creek Cowboy | 3:33 p.m. June 18, 2009

An alleged teenaged Butch Photo is available on Lady Belle Outlaw's Hideout website. I have seen the photo before and, if memory serves me right, a copyright was claimed. Unless there is more than one famous Bert Charter Colt, Keith Valley claims that the gun was stolen from a gun dealer during a train robbery. Thus, it would not have been custom made for Ketchum, unless of course the gun dealer was concealing that he was selling weapons to outlaws.

Butch | 6:52 a.m. June 19, 2009

Horse Creek Cowboy:

Good info on Lady Belle. I forgot to mention to Grow Up the "Legends of America" website which has a great number of Photos. And, I shouldn't have overlooked the 'Wyoming Tales and Trails" website which is chock full of interesting photos. I'm sure there are others I missed. Perhaps other contributors to the blog can help Grow Up with additional sites.

I have a continuing interest in the Charter Pistol and was not previously aware of Keith Valley's allegation. Could you tell me:

1.) Which train robbery the weapon was allegedly stolen from?

2.) Date, place, and presumed suspects in the robbery would be most helpful.

3.) Current theory on the possession of the weapon between the alleged train robbery and it's acquisition by Bert Charter, circa post 1900?

4.) The name of the alleged gun dealer and his location at the time of the robbery, i.e. his hometown at the time and his point of departure as well as his intended place of arrival?

Thanks for the information.

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Archive photo

The Wild Bunch outlaws include the Sundance Kid, left front, and Butch Cassidy, right front. Similarities between William Henry Long and Sundance Kid have been noted.

Gallery (7 photos)