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Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?
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Anonymous | 6:57 p.m. June 1, 2009
Butch
Thank you your clarification. Do you have an explanation why Siringo said Butch was in Alma New Mexico in probably early 1901 and why Blake Graham said he met him near Wilcox Arizona in May 1901?
Did Harry ever get a bullet wound in his leg?
Thank You
Anonymous | 7:20 p.m. June 1, 2009
Butch
As I recall Jerry Nickle said the 1901 documents showing Butch in SA are forgeries not the Pinkerton memos.
Thank You
As I recall Jerry Nickle said the 1901 documents showing Butch in SA are forgeries not the Pinkerton memos.
Thank You
Comments continue below
Butch | 7:34 p.m. June 1, 2009
Groan! Come on, Jerry, no one than you and your Hollywoods think Butch was in
Alma or Wilcox in 1901. It was fun when you played pretend, but this is just
wasting time. You're simply mis-reading Siringo. Want proof? Read Page 368
of Cowboy Detective. Then take a look at the Justice Docket for Mamoth City,
Juab County, Utah for January 2, 1900. There can't possibly any further
confusion about where Siringo said Butch was in 1900-1901. You Marilyn and Mike
need to get together and try real hard to think.
I don't know if Harry ever had a leg wound. If he did there is no report or record of it and it never made it into any description of him. For the same reasons I have no idea if Harry had an owie on his big toe, warts on his bum, or a tat on his belly button. I'm sure that is all fraught with meaning and pregnant with possibilities for you. I suppose all of us are in for another Wooden Nickle history lesson and I'll be blamed for it. Excuse me. I need adult company. Bye-Bye.
I don't know if Harry ever had a leg wound. If he did there is no report or record of it and it never made it into any description of him. For the same reasons I have no idea if Harry had an owie on his big toe, warts on his bum, or a tat on his belly button. I'm sure that is all fraught with meaning and pregnant with possibilities for you. I suppose all of us are in for another Wooden Nickle history lesson and I'll be blamed for it. Excuse me. I need adult company. Bye-Bye.
Butch | 7:41 p.m. June 1, 2009
O. K. Substitute the word "documents". I'll stand by my
statement. Jerry Nickle's theory is absurd. Anything else, Marilyn?
Butch | 8:15 a.m. June 2, 2009
Jerry,
1.) On October 2, 1897, Harry Longabaugh was taken to H. R. Locke's studio in Deadwood, South Dakota, to have his photo taken. Harry dropped his head and closed his eyes, rendering the photo unusable.
2.) On or about November 21, 1900 Harry willingly sat for the "Fort Worth Five" photograph at John Swartz' Studio in Fort Worth.
3.) In February, 1901, Harry Longabaugh willingly posed with alias Ethel Place for the DeYoung Photo at the DeYoung Studio in New York City.
4.) In 1903/1904 Harry willingly posed for the "Picture Post Card" Photos at Cholila.
My dumb questions:
1.) What happened between 1897 and 1900 to turn Harry from being camera shy to a regular ham in front of a camera?
2.)Is there any significance to the fact that either Butch and/or alias Ethel Place were in every photo taken of Harry from 1900 forward? That Harry was never photographed solo?
3.) Can you see a wedding band on alias Ethel Place's ring finger, left hand, in the DeYoung photograph? I'm not seeing one.
As always, your thoughts are welcomed.
1.) On October 2, 1897, Harry Longabaugh was taken to H. R. Locke's studio in Deadwood, South Dakota, to have his photo taken. Harry dropped his head and closed his eyes, rendering the photo unusable.
2.) On or about November 21, 1900 Harry willingly sat for the "Fort Worth Five" photograph at John Swartz' Studio in Fort Worth.
3.) In February, 1901, Harry Longabaugh willingly posed with alias Ethel Place for the DeYoung Photo at the DeYoung Studio in New York City.
4.) In 1903/1904 Harry willingly posed for the "Picture Post Card" Photos at Cholila.
My dumb questions:
1.) What happened between 1897 and 1900 to turn Harry from being camera shy to a regular ham in front of a camera?
2.)Is there any significance to the fact that either Butch and/or alias Ethel Place were in every photo taken of Harry from 1900 forward? That Harry was never photographed solo?
3.) Can you see a wedding band on alias Ethel Place's ring finger, left hand, in the DeYoung photograph? I'm not seeing one.
As always, your thoughts are welcomed.
Butch | 9:01 a.m. June 2, 2009
Jerry,
1.) According to "Dad's Guests At The Slater Store" Harry Longabaugh denied involvement in Winnemucca and slept in the stable "to save money".
2.) In February, 1901, Harry, with Alias Ethel Place and Butch Cassidy, stayed in a posh boarding house in New York City and spent money at Tiffany's, a Doctor's office, and booked passage to Buenos Aires.
3.) On or about March 23, 1901, Harry, along with alias Ethel Place deposited $12,000 in British Gold Notes in the River Platt Bank in BA.
4.) Butch, alias Ethel Place, and Harry sold their Cholila ranch for a small fortune on or about June 1, 1905.
5.) In 1907, after alias Ethel Place has disappeared, Roy Letson said Harry was "without funds, had a crust of bread in his pocket for his next meal."
Dumb question: Why is Harry poor as a church mouse before and after he is with alias Ethel Place, but flush with cash and living high on the hog when she is around?
1.) According to "Dad's Guests At The Slater Store" Harry Longabaugh denied involvement in Winnemucca and slept in the stable "to save money".
2.) In February, 1901, Harry, with Alias Ethel Place and Butch Cassidy, stayed in a posh boarding house in New York City and spent money at Tiffany's, a Doctor's office, and booked passage to Buenos Aires.
3.) On or about March 23, 1901, Harry, along with alias Ethel Place deposited $12,000 in British Gold Notes in the River Platt Bank in BA.
4.) Butch, alias Ethel Place, and Harry sold their Cholila ranch for a small fortune on or about June 1, 1905.
5.) In 1907, after alias Ethel Place has disappeared, Roy Letson said Harry was "without funds, had a crust of bread in his pocket for his next meal."
Dumb question: Why is Harry poor as a church mouse before and after he is with alias Ethel Place, but flush with cash and living high on the hog when she is around?
Just A Mous | 10:53 a.m. June 2, 2009
"I suppose all of us are in for another Wooden Nickle history lesson and
I'll be blamed for it. Excuse me. I need adult company. Bye-Bye." Per
Butch (Mr. Iverson)
"Adult company" and behaviour could be a help for you.
J A M
"Adult company" and behaviour could be a help for you.
J A M
Butch | 11:29 a.m. June 2, 2009
Marilyn:
I certainly hope so.
I certainly hope so.
Randall | 11:33 a.m. June 2, 2009
Why Don't You Fellars IM Text Message?
I Hear It's "Really" Fun.
The Rest Of Us Will Catch Butch And The Kid At The Kamas Flick.
I Hear It's "Really" Fun.
The Rest Of Us Will Catch Butch And The Kid At The Kamas Flick.
tartan cowboy | 12:03 p.m. June 2, 2009
seems to be all going on during my sleep time.this time difference is is a
pain!
anonymous: thanks for the heads up on the books,will have to get ahold of the siringo memiors.as i said previously availability in scotland has always been poor.i can see i have alot of catching up to do.untill i do i don't have much to contribute except as Butch put it "dumb questions" i'm i'll have plenty of those!
Butch:thanks for the sagely responses.
if ,according to the pinkertons,charter was associated with those who launched the rio paraguay adventure it would be safe to assume Butch would glean a modicom of life in SA.perhaps even a visit or two?perhaps during conversations the way of life appealed to him,the social and economic structure made financial sense or maybe he thought if things went pear shaped eluding the law would be easier than dealing with the pinkertons.whatever the reason,it would seem less like a whim and more of a strategy.
as regards the missing august 10 letter to utah,do we know what it's contents were?
continued....
anonymous: thanks for the heads up on the books,will have to get ahold of the siringo memiors.as i said previously availability in scotland has always been poor.i can see i have alot of catching up to do.untill i do i don't have much to contribute except as Butch put it "dumb questions" i'm i'll have plenty of those!
Butch:thanks for the sagely responses.
if ,according to the pinkertons,charter was associated with those who launched the rio paraguay adventure it would be safe to assume Butch would glean a modicom of life in SA.perhaps even a visit or two?perhaps during conversations the way of life appealed to him,the social and economic structure made financial sense or maybe he thought if things went pear shaped eluding the law would be easier than dealing with the pinkertons.whatever the reason,it would seem less like a whim and more of a strategy.
as regards the missing august 10 letter to utah,do we know what it's contents were?
continued....
tartan cowboy | 12:27 p.m. June 2, 2009
...continued.
is there any documentation regarding BC/SK post november 1908?
re SK unwilling to be photographed on his own and only having cash on the hip when "Ethel" was around,are you suggesting she was the driving force behind him?or that she controlled him? the letter to mrs davis does say that BC took only a third of the money from the dead uncle,so "Ethel was seemingly getting her cut.do you thin she ran off with the cash sometime after 1905.
so what about the elusive miss place?are the boarding house ledger,the steam boat docket and the records from the 12,000 gold pieces deposit the only reference we have to this woman being called "Ethel"? where does the "Etta" come from?what is her origins?i don't buy into the "soiled" dove angle.going by photographs of prostitutes from the nineteenth century they were hard drinking hard living women who looked as though they could have held their own during 12 rounds with Francis L Sullivan!whats your thoughts?
is there any documentation regarding BC/SK post november 1908?
re SK unwilling to be photographed on his own and only having cash on the hip when "Ethel" was around,are you suggesting she was the driving force behind him?or that she controlled him? the letter to mrs davis does say that BC took only a third of the money from the dead uncle,so "Ethel was seemingly getting her cut.do you thin she ran off with the cash sometime after 1905.
so what about the elusive miss place?are the boarding house ledger,the steam boat docket and the records from the 12,000 gold pieces deposit the only reference we have to this woman being called "Ethel"? where does the "Etta" come from?what is her origins?i don't buy into the "soiled" dove angle.going by photographs of prostitutes from the nineteenth century they were hard drinking hard living women who looked as though they could have held their own during 12 rounds with Francis L Sullivan!whats your thoughts?
Ghosttown Bob | 2:01 p.m. June 2, 2009
TCB, Butch: Entertaining dialogue and questions posed recently. As for Ethel, I
am interested in hearing Butch's view on the subject. My research indicates
that she was, indeed a young prostitute in Ft. Worth when the Wild Bunch boys
descended on the town. Also it is my view is that a substantial amount of cash
left with Ethel when Sundance took her back to San Francisco in 1905. That, and
BC's & SK's penchant for high living while in South America
probably accounts for the rest of it.
Post 1908 sightings of BC/SK are just that, sightings. Kind of like UFOs - - people keep reporting that they see them, but no actual written documentation that they came back.
Post 1908 sightings of BC/SK are just that, sightings. Kind of like UFOs - - people keep reporting that they see them, but no actual written documentation that they came back.
Butch | 2:31 p.m. June 2, 2009
TCB:
I agree with you completely. Ethel doesn't look anything like a 19th/20th Century Working Girl.
As for the rest? Well, what say you and I take a brief break and let the self appointed and annointed experts step to the fore?
Jerry, Marilyn, Mike, Mr. Buck, Ms Ernst, the podium is yours. Enlighten us!
I agree with you completely. Ethel doesn't look anything like a 19th/20th Century Working Girl.
As for the rest? Well, what say you and I take a brief break and let the self appointed and annointed experts step to the fore?
Jerry, Marilyn, Mike, Mr. Buck, Ms Ernst, the podium is yours. Enlighten us!
Just A Mous | 3:52 p.m. June 2, 2009
"Jerry, Marilyn, Mike, Mr. Buck, Ms Ernst, the podium is yours. Enlighten
us!" From "Butch."
As precise as you want to be, a slight hint. I believe your "Ms Ernst", is actually the wife of Paul Ernst, a claimed relative of Mr. Longabaugh. Making her a Mrs. Ernst.
No I am not Mrs. Grace.
You are most welcome.
J A M
As precise as you want to be, a slight hint. I believe your "Ms Ernst", is actually the wife of Paul Ernst, a claimed relative of Mr. Longabaugh. Making her a Mrs. Ernst.
No I am not Mrs. Grace.
You are most welcome.
J A M
Butch | 5:56 a.m. June 3, 2009
TCB:
I have no quarrel with your summation of the common wisdom regarding alias Ethel Place. And, that is precisely the foundation of my questions: The common place is ... well, so very common.
I am hopeful that Jerry and the Hollywoods present us all with a more Dan Brown-ish view. After all, Marilyn claimed on this blog she had "solved" the matter with pure science and that Jerry is, in fact, the grandson of Harry Longabaugh just as Jerry himself claims on his webpage.
That being the case, I think it is very reasonable to believe that Cecile B. de Nickle and his Merry Blogger Band have inside information on exactly who his Grandpa was cavorting with in SA, and what became of her.
Perhaps this can be done without damaging the pending Jerry Springer style broadcast where Jerry is "surprised" with the DNA test results. I certainly hope so. At the moment I am just all aflutter with anticipation. Be still my beating heart!
It isn't often we are treated to such penetrating analysis by the likes of Jerry coupled to the creative genius of Marilyn and Mike. I am positively breathless with anticipation.
I have no quarrel with your summation of the common wisdom regarding alias Ethel Place. And, that is precisely the foundation of my questions: The common place is ... well, so very common.
I am hopeful that Jerry and the Hollywoods present us all with a more Dan Brown-ish view. After all, Marilyn claimed on this blog she had "solved" the matter with pure science and that Jerry is, in fact, the grandson of Harry Longabaugh just as Jerry himself claims on his webpage.
That being the case, I think it is very reasonable to believe that Cecile B. de Nickle and his Merry Blogger Band have inside information on exactly who his Grandpa was cavorting with in SA, and what became of her.
Perhaps this can be done without damaging the pending Jerry Springer style broadcast where Jerry is "surprised" with the DNA test results. I certainly hope so. At the moment I am just all aflutter with anticipation. Be still my beating heart!
It isn't often we are treated to such penetrating analysis by the likes of Jerry coupled to the creative genius of Marilyn and Mike. I am positively breathless with anticipation.
Butch | 7:02 a.m. June 3, 2009
J A M:
My apologies. I meant no disrespect. I was under the impression --apparently mistaken -- that the designation "Ms" was to be properly applied to both married and single females on the grounds that in modern times a woman's marital status ought not be a consideration in determining worth, i. e. a woman ought not to be defined by any reference to a husband or lack thereof. My belief --again apparently mistaken -- is that "Ms" is a replacement for, or proper substitution of "Mrs." and "Miss".
I have no doubt that you are a far better student of Emily Post than I am.
Would you be so kind as to tell me how this relates to the subject of this blog? Do you reccomend that we refer henceforth to Mrs Place, Mrs Porter, Mrs DuFran, and Mrs Curry?
I expect a good many gentlemen contributors to this blog would benefit enormously from your genteel admonitions and corrections.
What say you, TCB? What is the custom of the Scots and in Merry Olde?
My apologies. I meant no disrespect. I was under the impression --apparently mistaken -- that the designation "Ms" was to be properly applied to both married and single females on the grounds that in modern times a woman's marital status ought not be a consideration in determining worth, i. e. a woman ought not to be defined by any reference to a husband or lack thereof. My belief --again apparently mistaken -- is that "Ms" is a replacement for, or proper substitution of "Mrs." and "Miss".
I have no doubt that you are a far better student of Emily Post than I am.
Would you be so kind as to tell me how this relates to the subject of this blog? Do you reccomend that we refer henceforth to Mrs Place, Mrs Porter, Mrs DuFran, and Mrs Curry?
I expect a good many gentlemen contributors to this blog would benefit enormously from your genteel admonitions and corrections.
What say you, TCB? What is the custom of the Scots and in Merry Olde?
tartan cowboy | 8:03 a.m. June 3, 2009
Butch: re the deyoung photograph, "looks more like an engagement ring on
"Ethels'" finger.
Re the "miss,mrs" matter:our culture/society has been taken over by something akin to a black ops sortie,it's called political correctness!though commendable in redefining equal opportunities and restoring a balance to the disadvantaged it can be,and often is, quite divisive.our ladies over here can be addressed ss they see fit and we respect that.
Re the "miss,mrs" matter:our culture/society has been taken over by something akin to a black ops sortie,it's called political correctness!though commendable in redefining equal opportunities and restoring a balance to the disadvantaged it can be,and often is, quite divisive.our ladies over here can be addressed ss they see fit and we respect that.
Butch | 9:33 a.m. June 3, 2009
TCB:
Thanks for your observations and information. I don't feel qualified to wade through issues of political correctness, a subject which I find mystifying and impenetrable. Therefore, if it is all right with the Bloggers on this site, may I simply be known as an uncultured, uncivilized, insensitive, uneducated, possibly chauvenistic bore who gives offense to everyone without regard to gender? That may excuse my bad behavior and help us get back on track in discussing and debating the issues raised on this site. Mea culpa.
Thanks for your observations and information. I don't feel qualified to wade through issues of political correctness, a subject which I find mystifying and impenetrable. Therefore, if it is all right with the Bloggers on this site, may I simply be known as an uncultured, uncivilized, insensitive, uneducated, possibly chauvenistic bore who gives offense to everyone without regard to gender? That may excuse my bad behavior and help us get back on track in discussing and debating the issues raised on this site. Mea culpa.
tartan cowboy | 10:13 a.m. June 3, 2009
Butch:
would be very intrested in hearing your comments and about your findings re the four code.
has anyone else out there in bloggsville got any info/comments on this.
Ancient Mariner,you had some comments on this earlier, be glad of your input.
would be very intrested in hearing your comments and about your findings re the four code.
has anyone else out there in bloggsville got any info/comments on this.
Ancient Mariner,you had some comments on this earlier, be glad of your input.
Butch | 11:15 a.m. June 3, 2009
TCB:
I'm not aware of anyone doing any work on the four code, and, aside from Siringo's Cowboy Detective description of it and that he communicated it to Elzy Lay in prison at the behest of Bert Charter and Jim Ferguson, I haven't found anything in print about it.
My previous blog about it just touched on a very few items regarding it. Here are a few more items for us to consider:
1.) According to Olin Emery's 1980 letter to True West, the famed Charter Pistol, a .38-40 single action Colt, serial no. 151179, originally was made to order for Black Jack Ketchum and delivered to El Paso, TX. After Black Jack was hung, George West Musgrave obtained the gun. Musgrave married Jano Magor, sister to Maud Magor, Bert Charter's wife. Shortly after the marriage, Musgrave, fleeing a murder warrant, gave the Colt to Bert Charter to secure a $150 debt. I have it from an unimpeachable source that the inside of the Ivory grips on the Colt are inscribed with the Roman Numeral IV. Musgrave was the fourth man to join the High Five Gang.
Continued .........
I'm not aware of anyone doing any work on the four code, and, aside from Siringo's Cowboy Detective description of it and that he communicated it to Elzy Lay in prison at the behest of Bert Charter and Jim Ferguson, I haven't found anything in print about it.
My previous blog about it just touched on a very few items regarding it. Here are a few more items for us to consider:
1.) According to Olin Emery's 1980 letter to True West, the famed Charter Pistol, a .38-40 single action Colt, serial no. 151179, originally was made to order for Black Jack Ketchum and delivered to El Paso, TX. After Black Jack was hung, George West Musgrave obtained the gun. Musgrave married Jano Magor, sister to Maud Magor, Bert Charter's wife. Shortly after the marriage, Musgrave, fleeing a murder warrant, gave the Colt to Bert Charter to secure a $150 debt. I have it from an unimpeachable source that the inside of the Ivory grips on the Colt are inscribed with the Roman Numeral IV. Musgrave was the fourth man to join the High Five Gang.
Continued .........
Butch | 11:30 a.m. June 3, 2009
The Ivory grips were a modification with walnut grips being the original grips
on the weapon. In the same letter Emery, a former Sheriff and Bert
Charter's son-in-law, wrote that "Mrs. Charter and Mary McGinnis (Elzy
Lay's second wife, daughter of Kirk Calvert)are the only women that knew
Etta (Place) in Price, Utah."
2.) The "Butch Cassidy Tree" is one of four inscribed trees, each of which stands in perfect geographic relation to four known "Safe Havens" for the Wild Bunch in and around Robbers Roost.
3.) Piss Ant Hill in the "Musen't Touch It" is at the intersection of four branches of the Outlaw Trail. Of particular note is that one of those trails leads to the site of Jeremiah "Kid" Jackson's blacksmith shop, one leads to Charlie Gibbons' Store, one leads to Giles, and one leads to the Jeffers Ranch. Each of these sites is replicated at the Butch Cassidy Tree site.
I think you will find the Four Code, and how it was used by the Wild Bunch, a really fascinating subject.
Are you a fan of Bletchley Park?
2.) The "Butch Cassidy Tree" is one of four inscribed trees, each of which stands in perfect geographic relation to four known "Safe Havens" for the Wild Bunch in and around Robbers Roost.
3.) Piss Ant Hill in the "Musen't Touch It" is at the intersection of four branches of the Outlaw Trail. Of particular note is that one of those trails leads to the site of Jeremiah "Kid" Jackson's blacksmith shop, one leads to Charlie Gibbons' Store, one leads to Giles, and one leads to the Jeffers Ranch. Each of these sites is replicated at the Butch Cassidy Tree site.
I think you will find the Four Code, and how it was used by the Wild Bunch, a really fascinating subject.
Are you a fan of Bletchley Park?
Ms, Mous | 2:27 p.m. June 3, 2009
"It isn't often we are treated to such penetrating analysis by the
likes of Jerry coupled to the creative genius of Marilyn and Mike. I am
positively breathless with anticipation." From our Butch.
Butch, with your obvious delight in ridiculing the unfinished efforts of Mr. Nickle, perhaps you would obtain equal joy in sharing your views on the efforts (include only factual and accurate information) that we have seen from Donna Ernst and Dan Buck. From my humble information, it seems that if Mr. Nickle is totally wrong, has he not achieved the same degree of accuracy that Mr. Buck did? I await your reply with breathless anticipation.
M M
Butch, with your obvious delight in ridiculing the unfinished efforts of Mr. Nickle, perhaps you would obtain equal joy in sharing your views on the efforts (include only factual and accurate information) that we have seen from Donna Ernst and Dan Buck. From my humble information, it seems that if Mr. Nickle is totally wrong, has he not achieved the same degree of accuracy that Mr. Buck did? I await your reply with breathless anticipation.
M M
Kerry Ross Boren | 3:44 p.m. June 3, 2009
I find the comments on Donna Ernst's writing most interesting. I know
Donna and I am aware that her promising career was sullied by association with
self-appointed "experts" Buck and Meadows upon whom she relies too
much to her detriment. I have not yet read Harvey Lay Murdock's book but I
know Harvey and I knew his mother Marvel very well, and I know that what he
writes is from a unique perspective and I look forward to reading his account of
his grandfather. I also know Jerry Nickle and his family and I applaud his
efforts and wish him the very best in his pursuits. I do not necessarily agree
with Jerry's hypotheses, but I greatly respect the honorable way in which
he pursues it. In the process, he is revealing some important new and
fascinating history. No matter who William Long really was, he was an
exceptional character whose story needs to be told. Good luck, Jerry!
Butch | 4:04 p.m. June 3, 2009
Marilyn:
No.
I'd like to have Jerry's, yours, and Mike's analysis, and I also requested that of Mr. Buck and Ms/Mrs/Author Ernst/Donna Ernst, et al. I asked questions that I have a good faith belief are reasonable and that I don't believe have been asked before.
I further believe that since your involvement in July 2007 you have had more than ample time to both consider and research the issues, develop a line of argument based on analysis, and formulate clear cut opinions. That is what I am asking you to provide, and nothing more.
My concern is that none of you Nickle team members have done your homework, and what precious little you have done was the result of misguided, wholly unprofessional, and entirely amatuerish undertakings. As I blogged to TCB and others, if you are guilty of my charge, then what you will foist on the public, however inaccurate, will be belived by some percentage of the public.
Once a fantasy is put into the public consciousness, it is very much like a failed government program. It simply can not be done away with.
Continued ........
No.
I'd like to have Jerry's, yours, and Mike's analysis, and I also requested that of Mr. Buck and Ms/Mrs/Author Ernst/Donna Ernst, et al. I asked questions that I have a good faith belief are reasonable and that I don't believe have been asked before.
I further believe that since your involvement in July 2007 you have had more than ample time to both consider and research the issues, develop a line of argument based on analysis, and formulate clear cut opinions. That is what I am asking you to provide, and nothing more.
My concern is that none of you Nickle team members have done your homework, and what precious little you have done was the result of misguided, wholly unprofessional, and entirely amatuerish undertakings. As I blogged to TCB and others, if you are guilty of my charge, then what you will foist on the public, however inaccurate, will be belived by some percentage of the public.
Once a fantasy is put into the public consciousness, it is very much like a failed government program. It simply can not be done away with.
Continued ........
Mom's Girl | 4:07 p.m. June 3, 2009
Butch, Jerry, Dan
There seems to be some doubts as to the Fort Worth Fives photograph actually being taken in Fort Worth on Oct 21 1900. Did one of you see the original photograph when you reviewed the Pinkerton files? I believe the original photograph would have the Studios identification stamp.
There seems to be some doubts as to the Fort Worth Fives photograph actually being taken in Fort Worth on Oct 21 1900. Did one of you see the original photograph when you reviewed the Pinkerton files? I believe the original photograph would have the Studios identification stamp.
Butch | 4:18 p.m. June 3, 2009
Examples of this, I suggest, are Larry Pointer's contention that Phillips
was Parker/Cassidy or Ms Meadows (Mrs Buck?)contention that Parker/Cassidy and
Longabaugh died November 6, 1908 at San Vicente, Bolivia, or Ms/Mrs/ Author
Ernst's (Donna? Donna Ernst? Sundance's great, great, great neice
thrice removed by marriage?)contention that Longabaugh and alias Ethel Place (Ms
Place? Mrs Place? Ethel Place?)visited PA in 1901 and again in 1902.
No matter how fanciful, no matter how logically absurd these various contentions have proven to be, the fact is that they remain, and endure, if not for years then decades.
I am easily proved wrong in my charge that you are not up to the task of informed, logical, well informed debate of the facts and issues. All you have to do is give our Blog Audience a demonstration of your competency. Better that than be tagged with incompetence when you never got in the game.
No matter how fanciful, no matter how logically absurd these various contentions have proven to be, the fact is that they remain, and endure, if not for years then decades.
I am easily proved wrong in my charge that you are not up to the task of informed, logical, well informed debate of the facts and issues. All you have to do is give our Blog Audience a demonstration of your competency. Better that than be tagged with incompetence when you never got in the game.
Butch | 4:48 p.m. June 3, 2009
Mr. Boren:
Sir, you may not remember our exchange in mid-2007 regarding the Bulldog Saloon photograph, however, I remember it very well. It is good to correspond again with you, Mr. Boren.
I have no wish to mislead you. I am not a fan of your writings. At the moment I wish to challenge your Tom Vernon article regarding Parker/Cassidy's laison with a putative "Etta Place". What solid evidence can you offer us that your meeting with Vernon took place? Do you have supportive evidence of the laison? Is there ancillary evidence? Because your alleged meeting took place in the early 1960's you, like Marilyn Grace, have had more than enough time to uncover supportive evidence. While Jerry Nickle cowers behind the billowing and ample skirts of Marilyn Grace, would you favor the Blog audience with a response?
Bye the bye, when I challenged your provenance for the Bulldog Saloon Photograph you ran like the proverbial scared rabbit --or Jerry Nickle, Marilyn Grace, or Mike Karr from a real question. Why? I would be simply devastated if you thought me a ruffian of the sort that would assault anyone, let alone beat them --to death.
Sir, you may not remember our exchange in mid-2007 regarding the Bulldog Saloon photograph, however, I remember it very well. It is good to correspond again with you, Mr. Boren.
I have no wish to mislead you. I am not a fan of your writings. At the moment I wish to challenge your Tom Vernon article regarding Parker/Cassidy's laison with a putative "Etta Place". What solid evidence can you offer us that your meeting with Vernon took place? Do you have supportive evidence of the laison? Is there ancillary evidence? Because your alleged meeting took place in the early 1960's you, like Marilyn Grace, have had more than enough time to uncover supportive evidence. While Jerry Nickle cowers behind the billowing and ample skirts of Marilyn Grace, would you favor the Blog audience with a response?
Bye the bye, when I challenged your provenance for the Bulldog Saloon Photograph you ran like the proverbial scared rabbit --or Jerry Nickle, Marilyn Grace, or Mike Karr from a real question. Why? I would be simply devastated if you thought me a ruffian of the sort that would assault anyone, let alone beat them --to death.
Butch | 5:02 p.m. June 3, 2009
Mom's Girl:
Good question. Several prints of the Fort Worth Five photograph exist in the Pinkerton files at the Library of Congress, together with isolations of the five figures.
Ms Ernst was first to give the date of the photograph as November 21, 1900, and not October as you blogged. Ms Ernst based her date on the basis of a Pinkerton Report obtained in December, 1902.
The only question as to the date of the photograph was raised by me in 2007, Marilyn, so we needn't try to divert attention from your failure to answer questions directly by creating a new issue.
Trust me. We are all truly breathless awaiting your response. You're not going to disappoint us once again, are you?
Good question. Several prints of the Fort Worth Five photograph exist in the Pinkerton files at the Library of Congress, together with isolations of the five figures.
Ms Ernst was first to give the date of the photograph as November 21, 1900, and not October as you blogged. Ms Ernst based her date on the basis of a Pinkerton Report obtained in December, 1902.
The only question as to the date of the photograph was raised by me in 2007, Marilyn, so we needn't try to divert attention from your failure to answer questions directly by creating a new issue.
Trust me. We are all truly breathless awaiting your response. You're not going to disappoint us once again, are you?
Kelly Taylor | 5:10 p.m. June 3, 2009
I am the person that took Jerry and Butch to see the Butch Cassidy tree for their first. I am fifth generation Wayne County Utah native. My great grandfather George Morrell was the victim of Bill Longs pistol whipping in 1901 discussed here. I live two blocks from where that incident happened. Jerry and I are third cousins.
When we get a chance my son West and I ride horses into the Robbers Roost. Do a web search for extremeoutlawrides and you will see photos and a film of our riding into the Roost. At 43 seconds you will see Butch Cassidys corral he and the outlaws used. At 1.04 is the Butch Cassidy Tree discussed here. At 3.14 is the cabin at Robbers Roost Ranch. At 3.20 is the Butch Cassidy corral again.
Kelly Taylor | 5:11 p.m. June 3, 2009
We worked many hours with these horses so they would make these jumps. When the
outlaws were being chased they would make these jumps. The posses horses would
not make these jumps so the boys made a successful escape. We take these horses
by trailer to the Roost. When we unload them and saddle up they are rearing to
go. They enjoy these rides as much as we do.
We have two horses that will jump, with rider, into water becoming completely submerged, as you will see near the end of the clip.
We have two horses that will jump, with rider, into water becoming completely submerged, as you will see near the end of the clip.
Anonymous | 6:08 p.m. June 3, 2009
Butch,
Wasn't this Bill Long, Harry Lonabaugh project originally a Jerry Nickle, Butch Iverson production? What Happened? Were you fired? you sound like a disgruntled ex-partner.
Wasn't this Bill Long, Harry Lonabaugh project originally a Jerry Nickle, Butch Iverson production? What Happened? Were you fired? you sound like a disgruntled ex-partner.
Butch | 6:09 p.m. June 3, 2009
Kid Taylor:
Take a bow. Folks, Kelly Taylor is the greatest LIVING Cowboy Detective, and unquestionably tied for first place with Charlie Siringo on the all time list, with Frank Dimaio being a very distant next best. Kid Taylor, alone, uncovered the Wayne County Court records for the trials of J. B. Buhr, Ella Moore, Blue John Griffith, and Silver Tip. The Kid has more honest history at his finger tips, out his back door, and in his saddle bag than Charles Kelly, Dan Buck, and Donna Ernst had, combined, on their best day --with help.
The Kid sits tall in the saddle, guides a tenderfoot with compassion, answers any question put to him accurately and completely, and quite often goes into the San Rafael on foot, because a "horse slows me down".
The Kid never lies, is truthful to a fault, is probably the most competent, intelligent, resourceful, kind, patient, and best looking human being the Almighty ever created.
Kid, the one question I've had for better than two years is: "With all you have going for you, how did you ever get involved with the Hollywoods?"
Take a bow. Folks, Kelly Taylor is the greatest LIVING Cowboy Detective, and unquestionably tied for first place with Charlie Siringo on the all time list, with Frank Dimaio being a very distant next best. Kid Taylor, alone, uncovered the Wayne County Court records for the trials of J. B. Buhr, Ella Moore, Blue John Griffith, and Silver Tip. The Kid has more honest history at his finger tips, out his back door, and in his saddle bag than Charles Kelly, Dan Buck, and Donna Ernst had, combined, on their best day --with help.
The Kid sits tall in the saddle, guides a tenderfoot with compassion, answers any question put to him accurately and completely, and quite often goes into the San Rafael on foot, because a "horse slows me down".
The Kid never lies, is truthful to a fault, is probably the most competent, intelligent, resourceful, kind, patient, and best looking human being the Almighty ever created.
Kid, the one question I've had for better than two years is: "With all you have going for you, how did you ever get involved with the Hollywoods?"
Mom's Girl | 6:10 p.m. June 3, 2009
I am not Marilyn
Butch | 6:27 p.m. June 3, 2009
Marilyn:
I want Kid Taylor to take a bow and you to take a hike. At no time did I ever take the position that Bill was Harry. Never. Try as you might to deflect the audience from your woeful inadequacies, the fact remains that, unless you can come up with one, single, well-written, well-researched, blog on a issue, you stand convicted of my charge of incompetence. Go ahead, Marilyn, prove me wrong. Write something of real worth. You too, Jerry. Stop hiding and dodging. Get in the game. Where oh where is Mike Karr? Mike had plenty to say when Jerry's oney was laying on the table and not yet picked up. Strangely, he is silent to the point of being comotose at the moment. Go ahead, you Nickle gang. Write just one thoughtful, well researched, factual, articulate blog. Just one. Don't answer my questions. Pick a topic of your own choosing. Go ahead. We're all waiting.
I want Kid Taylor to take a bow and you to take a hike. At no time did I ever take the position that Bill was Harry. Never. Try as you might to deflect the audience from your woeful inadequacies, the fact remains that, unless you can come up with one, single, well-written, well-researched, blog on a issue, you stand convicted of my charge of incompetence. Go ahead, Marilyn, prove me wrong. Write something of real worth. You too, Jerry. Stop hiding and dodging. Get in the game. Where oh where is Mike Karr? Mike had plenty to say when Jerry's oney was laying on the table and not yet picked up. Strangely, he is silent to the point of being comotose at the moment. Go ahead, you Nickle gang. Write just one thoughtful, well researched, factual, articulate blog. Just one. Don't answer my questions. Pick a topic of your own choosing. Go ahead. We're all waiting.
Butch | 6:39 p.m. June 3, 2009
Mom's Girl:
There is a technical term that applies to your last blog: "Phooey!"
There is a technical term that applies to your last blog: "Phooey!"
Annonymous #2 | 6:49 p.m. June 3, 2009
Butch
Why are you so obsessed with Marilyn and the Hollywoods? It appear you are a disgruntled X employ, is that true? What was your relationship with Jerry, Marilyn and the Hollywoods? Did you make confidential information Jerry had given you, about his family, public on this blog? Have you ever considered therapy?
Why are you so obsessed with Marilyn and the Hollywoods? It appear you are a disgruntled X employ, is that true? What was your relationship with Jerry, Marilyn and the Hollywoods? Did you make confidential information Jerry had given you, about his family, public on this blog? Have you ever considered therapy?
Butch | 7:54 p.m. June 3, 2009
Marilyn:
Chuckle.
Go ahead. Write just one reasonable, intelligent article. Just one. Prove me wrong. Jerry, do likewise. Don't hide. Don't dissemble. Come on now you three. Produce something. Anything. No?
Stop deflecting, dodging, trying to shift the subject from you to me, and blog just one article.
Just one. Pick one. Anything.
We're all waiting.
Chuckle.
Go ahead. Write just one reasonable, intelligent article. Just one. Prove me wrong. Jerry, do likewise. Don't hide. Don't dissemble. Come on now you three. Produce something. Anything. No?
Stop deflecting, dodging, trying to shift the subject from you to me, and blog just one article.
Just one. Pick one. Anything.
We're all waiting.
Ms. Mous | 7:54 p.m. June 3, 2009
Butch claims, "We're all waiting."
Did he (Butch) mean to say "I" am waiting, or does he have a mous, or shall we say, a Ms. Mous(es) in his pocket? With hardly a breath left, we (I, us, them,)wait with great anticipation.
M M
Did he (Butch) mean to say "I" am waiting, or does he have a mous, or shall we say, a Ms. Mous(es) in his pocket? With hardly a breath left, we (I, us, them,)wait with great anticipation.
M M
Not Nickles, Grace or Karr | 6:46 a.m. June 4, 2009
Butch,
We are waiting to hear what your involvement in the Bill Long project was? You bragged to several people that you were going to be a paid adviser in the filming and production of the Bill Long, Harry Longabaugh story. That suggests, that you either believed there was enough evidence to support the theory, or you were willing to be a participant in the hoax you now accuse your former associates Nickles, Grace and Karr of promoting.
What say you Butch, are you seeking revenge or the truth?
We are waiting to hear what your involvement in the Bill Long project was? You bragged to several people that you were going to be a paid adviser in the filming and production of the Bill Long, Harry Longabaugh story. That suggests, that you either believed there was enough evidence to support the theory, or you were willing to be a participant in the hoax you now accuse your former associates Nickles, Grace and Karr of promoting.
What say you Butch, are you seeking revenge or the truth?
Ms. Mous | 7:58 a.m. June 4, 2009
"What say you Butch, are you seeking revenge or the truth?"
You aren't going to be like the SAFA (self appointed foremost authority) are you? When confronted with facts, or questions that could put you in a bad light, you look the other way.
I would think if Mr. Nickle's project is so bad, you would not want to be associated with it anyway.
M M
You aren't going to be like the SAFA (self appointed foremost authority) are you? When confronted with facts, or questions that could put you in a bad light, you look the other way.
I would think if Mr. Nickle's project is so bad, you would not want to be associated with it anyway.
M M
Butch | 8:36 a.m. June 4, 2009
I think you all asked fair questions, if one assumes that my involvement with
Jerry and the Bill Long Story is material to a discussion of the facts and
issues that comprise the basis of this blog. With that proviso, I'll do the
best I can to respond.
I believe that Jerry and I are a parallel case to Jim Dulenty and Larry Pointer. Both of those men looked at the Bill Phillips as Butch Cassidy question. Initially they operated as partners and looked at the same material, the same documents, and the same fact base. They reached different conclusions, with Dulenty forming the opinion that Phillips was not Cassidy and Pointer believing that Phillips was Cassidy. At that point the two men separated in terms of their joint effort regarding Phillips.
Jerry introduced me to the Bill Long as Harry Longabaugh question in January, 2007. We looked at the same documents, the same fact base, the same evidence. Ultimately, by mid-July 2007, we had reached different conclusions. I concluded that Bill was not Harry and Jerry concluded that Bill was Harry.
Continued .........
I believe that Jerry and I are a parallel case to Jim Dulenty and Larry Pointer. Both of those men looked at the Bill Phillips as Butch Cassidy question. Initially they operated as partners and looked at the same material, the same documents, and the same fact base. They reached different conclusions, with Dulenty forming the opinion that Phillips was not Cassidy and Pointer believing that Phillips was Cassidy. At that point the two men separated in terms of their joint effort regarding Phillips.
Jerry introduced me to the Bill Long as Harry Longabaugh question in January, 2007. We looked at the same documents, the same fact base, the same evidence. Ultimately, by mid-July 2007, we had reached different conclusions. I concluded that Bill was not Harry and Jerry concluded that Bill was Harry.
Continued .........
Butch | 8:49 a.m. June 4, 2009
I believe that Mr Buck and Ms Meadows, among others, have successfully
demonstrated in their various articles and Digging Up Butch and Sundance, that
Pointer was wrong and Dullenty is correct. However, if that results in throwing
all of Pointer's work under the bus, then I think we make a gross error.
Further, I am of the opinion that Bill Phillips is a person of great interest,
and we have much to learn by continuing to look into him.
I have the same opinion regarding Jerry and his work on Bill Long. If it be proved that I am correct and Jerry is wrong, I am steadfast in my opinion that all of Jerry's work should not be discounted, and that Bill Long as Bill Long, not as Harry Longabaugh, is a person of continuing interest that should be scrutinized more fully. We have a good deal more to learn if we continue investigating Bill Long.
It would not be correct if readers of this blog assume that Jerry and I have ceased all working together. Indeed, at the present time we are hard at work on a joint project.
I have the same opinion regarding Jerry and his work on Bill Long. If it be proved that I am correct and Jerry is wrong, I am steadfast in my opinion that all of Jerry's work should not be discounted, and that Bill Long as Bill Long, not as Harry Longabaugh, is a person of continuing interest that should be scrutinized more fully. We have a good deal more to learn if we continue investigating Bill Long.
It would not be correct if readers of this blog assume that Jerry and I have ceased all working together. Indeed, at the present time we are hard at work on a joint project.
Butch | 9:02 a.m. June 4, 2009
I committted to Jerry and other of our pals to produce a draft, or outline, of
the facts, evidence, and line of argument on an issue that we believe will be of
interest to the general public and readers of this blog in particular. The draft
will be circulated, and when Jerry and I believe the work has been sufficiently
vetted, it will be published, with the two of us as co-authors.
It is true that Jerry invited me to join the film effort, and that I declined. It is also true that I have asked Jerry to be my publisher for books in the works. So far, Jerry has not declined.
I would like Jerry to jump into this blog full force, and give us the benefit of his views, and his considerable knowledge of this subject. We would all benefit. It isn't material --at least to me -- if Jerry declines to discuss facts or issues that bear directly on the Bill Long as Harry Longabaugh question. However, this blog has raised countless issues and questions that are on the margins of that one issue or are completely divorced from it.
It is true that Jerry invited me to join the film effort, and that I declined. It is also true that I have asked Jerry to be my publisher for books in the works. So far, Jerry has not declined.
I would like Jerry to jump into this blog full force, and give us the benefit of his views, and his considerable knowledge of this subject. We would all benefit. It isn't material --at least to me -- if Jerry declines to discuss facts or issues that bear directly on the Bill Long as Harry Longabaugh question. However, this blog has raised countless issues and questions that are on the margins of that one issue or are completely divorced from it.
tartan cowboy | 11:12 a.m. June 4, 2009
Butch:
bletchley park:i've never been,but it was so important to all the allies during ww2 saving countless numbers of lives.the sad aspect to recent stories on our tv news programmes about bletchley is that it is going to rack and ruin through lack of funds.it is mostly run on handouts and the generosity of some folks who at least have asemblance of it's historic value.forgotten,much like our old soldiers.
what's the significance of the "Bulldog Sallon" photo?
bletchley park:i've never been,but it was so important to all the allies during ww2 saving countless numbers of lives.the sad aspect to recent stories on our tv news programmes about bletchley is that it is going to rack and ruin through lack of funds.it is mostly run on handouts and the generosity of some folks who at least have asemblance of it's historic value.forgotten,much like our old soldiers.
what's the significance of the "Bulldog Sallon" photo?
Butch | 12:25 p.m. June 4, 2009
It distresses me to hear that Bletchley Park has fallen on hard times. I've
always thought it was a wonderful symbol of what can be accomplished when Great
Britain and the U. S. partnered on a matter of great importance.
The reason why I asked about Bletchley Park was by way of raising with you possible interest you might have in joining up with your Yankee friends --may I include myself among them? -- and doing a bit of investigative work on the Wild Bunch.
A good many of us put "boots on the ground" in UT, WY, TX, NM, SD, MT, ID, NV, and elsewhere, tracking the Wild Bunch. Sadly, we have no "Man Across The Pond", and that is a great pity because there are so many Brits and Scots involved in the true story.
If you are so inclined, how does the idea of sleuthing in Scotland and England stike you?
Re the Bulldog Saloon Photo: There is a photograph circulating in the literature which purports to be a photograph of the Bulldog Saloon, presumably in Baggs, WY, and possibly having a good many Wild Bunch members in it.
Continued ............
The reason why I asked about Bletchley Park was by way of raising with you possible interest you might have in joining up with your Yankee friends --may I include myself among them? -- and doing a bit of investigative work on the Wild Bunch.
A good many of us put "boots on the ground" in UT, WY, TX, NM, SD, MT, ID, NV, and elsewhere, tracking the Wild Bunch. Sadly, we have no "Man Across The Pond", and that is a great pity because there are so many Brits and Scots involved in the true story.
If you are so inclined, how does the idea of sleuthing in Scotland and England stike you?
Re the Bulldog Saloon Photo: There is a photograph circulating in the literature which purports to be a photograph of the Bulldog Saloon, presumably in Baggs, WY, and possibly having a good many Wild Bunch members in it.
Continued ............
Butch | 12:37 p.m. June 4, 2009
The current debate or controversy centers around the date of the photo, the
place of the photo, and which of the multiple figures in the photo are whom.
Each of these issues is of importance. For example, if the Photo is proved to be taken in Baggs in 1896, and Bill McCarty is "in the picture", then the theory that Tom McCarty and not Bill was killed at the Delta bank job would gain traction. And so on.
If you obtain a copy of Larry Pointer's book, "In Search of Butch Cassidy," you can see the photograph and get Pointer's opinion and thoughts. Mr Buck has written on the photo, and he might favor you with his thoughts, which are different than Pointer's. The subject is very interesting, and is another example of "no matter how much you think you know, there is always more to learn."
I think it fair to say that no one person would ever be able to acquire all the documents, facts, articles, and evidence necessary to tell the full story of the Wild Bunch. Those who try must "get by with a little help from their friends."
Each of these issues is of importance. For example, if the Photo is proved to be taken in Baggs in 1896, and Bill McCarty is "in the picture", then the theory that Tom McCarty and not Bill was killed at the Delta bank job would gain traction. And so on.
If you obtain a copy of Larry Pointer's book, "In Search of Butch Cassidy," you can see the photograph and get Pointer's opinion and thoughts. Mr Buck has written on the photo, and he might favor you with his thoughts, which are different than Pointer's. The subject is very interesting, and is another example of "no matter how much you think you know, there is always more to learn."
I think it fair to say that no one person would ever be able to acquire all the documents, facts, articles, and evidence necessary to tell the full story of the Wild Bunch. Those who try must "get by with a little help from their friends."
tartan cowboy | 3:46 p.m. June 4, 2009
Butch: i know the photo in question,i have a copy of the book.don't know
much about it though.has any one in the photo been authenticated? doesn't
look like sundance.there is other obvious ones ,the logans etc. is it butch?
regarding the research,sounds interesting don't know how much help i could be but i'm willing to try ,but don't know where to start.what is wild bunch scottish connection,apart from BC grandparent and gorbals boy mr pinkerton?
perhaps if dan buck is reading he could share his thoughts on the bulldog saloon photo?
regarding the research,sounds interesting don't know how much help i could be but i'm willing to try ,but don't know where to start.what is wild bunch scottish connection,apart from BC grandparent and gorbals boy mr pinkerton?
perhaps if dan buck is reading he could share his thoughts on the bulldog saloon photo?
Butch | 5:55 p.m. June 4, 2009
Hutcheon had an American wife, Frances Miller from PA, and nine kids. I'll
work Hutcheon from Stateside.
Mr Buck and Ms Meadows are the resident authorities on Hutcheon. As a general rule, whenever Mr. Buck becomes aware of a request for assistance he responds promptly and generously. I expect that will be the case here. It doesn't seem to matter if you support his positions or not.
Good Luck to you and I'll save a bit for myself.
Mr Buck and Ms Meadows are the resident authorities on Hutcheon. As a general rule, whenever Mr. Buck becomes aware of a request for assistance he responds promptly and generously. I expect that will be the case here. It doesn't seem to matter if you support his positions or not.
Good Luck to you and I'll save a bit for myself.
Butch | 6:07 p.m. June 4, 2009
TCB:
Everybody has their own method of tracking. Here's mine. I like to go to the place(s) where my target is known to have been. (Dyce/Edinburgh?) I'll hang around a saloon (pub?) and make friends of the locals, telling everybody who I am and what I'm looking for. Someone usually directs me to an oldtimer in the area. I also hang out at the local library, local museum, and local historical society and ask questions there. These are normally gold mines of information. Next stop is the county court house where I ask the registrar for help looking up deeds to real estate. I also stop in the local newspaper office and spend some time reading back issues around the dates I'm interested in. Local cemetaries can yeild information and most bone yards have registers of internments. That's about it. Pretty simple, very effective, and very enjoyable. One gets to travel, meet new people, sample local foods, and see the sites. I tease my pals about me "working too hard".
Everybody has their own method of tracking. Here's mine. I like to go to the place(s) where my target is known to have been. (Dyce/Edinburgh?) I'll hang around a saloon (pub?) and make friends of the locals, telling everybody who I am and what I'm looking for. Someone usually directs me to an oldtimer in the area. I also hang out at the local library, local museum, and local historical society and ask questions there. These are normally gold mines of information. Next stop is the county court house where I ask the registrar for help looking up deeds to real estate. I also stop in the local newspaper office and spend some time reading back issues around the dates I'm interested in. Local cemetaries can yeild information and most bone yards have registers of internments. That's about it. Pretty simple, very effective, and very enjoyable. One gets to travel, meet new people, sample local foods, and see the sites. I tease my pals about me "working too hard".
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1.) Jerry Nickle has advanced what I consider to be a fanciful and humorously outrageous theory that the Pinkerton documents are "forgeries". I think that is utter nonsense.
2.) The anomolies are intentional and are observable indicia of an intelligent plan of designed action.
I would welcome your views.