Deseret News | Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?

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Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?

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tartan cowboy | 12:45 p.m. May 29, 2009

just got rigged up with net 7 days ago,as a big wild west fan i,m enjoying this blog immensely. you,ll all get this post 2moro as i,m writing from scotland .i,d like to digress if you,ll indulge me.has anyone looked at the photograph in eamonn o,neills book outlaws?it, says "is this a very much alive butch cassidy in 19.10" its an uncanny likeness.does dan or anyone know if photo comparisons have been done?anyone know history of photo? would appreciate an answer. to jerry hope your claims are substantiated, would throw the whole debate into the stratosphere,good luck.thanks to all in anticipation.

Anonymous | 1:30 p.m. May 29, 2009

"is this a very much alive butch cassidy in 19.10" its an uncanny likeness.does dan or anyone know if photo comparisons have been done?

Good luck Tartan Cowboy. Don't hold your breath till dan agrees that it is our pal Butch in a 1910 photo. Enjoy yourself.

tartan cowboy | 1:47 p.m. May 29, 2009

oops! just realised your blog time is around 7 hours behind here not ahead,so u should all be wide awake.

Comments continue below

Anonymous | 4:50 p.m. May 29, 2009

Did anyone really think we would know the results of the DNA before they aired the program? That isnt the way it works in Hollywood. The blog is free publicity, and in their world, theres no such thing as bad publicity. I suspect Jerry Nickle wont know the results until shortly before the airing, so they can film his reaction in time to include it. I know Jerry Nickle honestly believed/believes that Bill Long was Harry Longabaugh. Personally, I think we should all be thankful that Jerry Nickle was willing to pursue his belief as far as he did, no matter what the outcome is, otherwise those of us who love western outlaw history, may never have had the opportunity to present new evidence in a public forum, such as this blog. I think all of us, including Ghosttown Bob, would agree that we have all benefited and learned a great deal from this blog.

Bob Jayne | 5:07 p.m. May 29, 2009

May I be allowed to mention a new book by Diana Allen Kouris? RIDING THE EDGE OF AN ERA. 800 552 7819 I also have enjoyed reading, more than once, her book, THE ROMANTIC AND NOTORIOUS HISTORY OF BROWN'S PARK. Her family lived, and I believe still resides along the river in the park. A beautiful area. Her gentle, kind style of writing, telling of actual experiences and the real life of her family, in Brown's Park (hole), is very entertaining. And if Diana wrote it, that is the way it was. She might even mention something about our friends, Butch (Robert), Sundance (Bill or Harry).

Hope some of you will be able to enjoy her work.

Thank you.

Bob Jayne

Barbarella | 5:52 p.m. May 29, 2009

I have read this blog from start to finish and I take it that Anonymous is Marilyn Grace.

If Jerry Nickle actually "believed/believes" Bill Long is Harry A. Longabaugh after reading this blog, then QUICK! everybody, lets get the poor man into therapy.

Unfortunately, there are those poor bored souls who will watch anything put on TV. Ice Road Truckers and Monster Quest spring immediately to mind. I suppose "Jerry Nickle Gets Surprised When Told Bill Long is Really Bill Long" could be fit between those two programs and the four members of the audience could then find out:

1.) Big Foot doesn't live in Alberta.
2.) Bill Long is not Harry Longabaugh.
3.) The ice road truckers don't drown.

Wow! Imagine that!

Marsh | 6:20 p.m. May 29, 2009

Barbarella:

I agree completely. It isn't credible at all that Jerry Nickle actually believes Bill Long is Harry Longabaugh. I think what is going on here is a little spoof of the sort that Kerry Ross Boren puts out from time to time. We do get the bonus of real debate with facts from well informed individuals. I find that very interesting. Good job Deseret News.

Anonymous | 6:27 p.m. May 29, 2009

Barbarella states: "I have read this blog from start to finish and I take it that Anonymous is Marilyn Grace."

Shows what you know Barbie, most of us can't count the different "Anonymous" posters that join in. Got any other idea's?

Butch (aka anonymous.)

Ancient Mariner | 6:38 p.m. May 29, 2009

Welcome Tartan Cowboy. Good to have you with us.
I'll wager we're about to get some fresh information as soon as we can get Ms Grace quieted down. Until then I'm afraid you're in for a bit of a yawn.

tartan cowboy | 1:47 a.m. May 30, 2009

ancient mariner: thanx for the welcome.
as a lay person with an open mind i think the order of the day should be objectivity.having read the postings to date and following the text and sub text its clear debunking someones research is not always about simply questioning the validity of gathered material but about dry gulching others findings in order to further entrench their own fixed ideas.every theory to the non historian like me sounds plausible.perhaps evary author should begin their book by saying "most of what follows is true"

Butch | 5:52 a.m. May 30, 2009

Marilyn, you're dead wrong. I've never once posted under "Anonymous" and leave that boring name exclusively to you.

Tartn Cowboy: A good many of us are delighted to have you with us and get a Tartan perspective on history.

Regarding your statement that "every theory to the non historian ... sounds plausible": No matter how absurd a theory, no matter how preposterous what passes as "proof" to support a theory, some given number of people will believe it. What ever the number of supporters, they constitute another group whose minds must be changed if truth is to win out in the end. Sadly, later "experts" and authors will either quote or cite to the Charlatan in print and if really egregious errors become "entrenched" it is through this process.

I'd like to point out that there is a great difference between having an open mind such as yours and having a mind incapable of discerning obvious falsehood, as a very small group of people do.

Rather than damage our precious First Amendment rights with an attempt at prior censurship, we who are serious, seek to expose nonsense in advance of distribution and disassociate ourselves from it.

Continued ........

Butch | 6:10 a.m. May 30, 2009

For those of us who contend that both Butch and Sundance survived South America, the preposterous and fanciful pose great danger because we fear that Mr Buck, as well as his two supporters, might tar us with the same brush applied to the Charlatans. Hence, we expose the falacious while we disassociate ourselves from it, and, at the same time encoure distribution of everyone's books or films.

Blogs such as this one help some of us sharpen our arguments by putting them forth for public debate. During the course of that debate we all benefit because very good minds on both sides of the primary issue of contetion add immeasurable amounts of factual context, and that dramatically increases our knowledge base.

When Marilyn and Jerry attempt to stiffle debate on any issue, fail to directly answer a question put forward, or put forward absurdities designed to deflect attention from insurrmountable obstacles they have, they do not advance the cause of knowledge.

Discerning and open minds deeply involved in the debates on this blog benefit us all.

Again, welcome Tartan Cowboy, a very hearty welcome!

Ancient Mariner | 6:21 a.m. May 30, 2009

Tartan Cowboy:

The idea of an author saying "Most of what follows is true," is a good one. However,that statement would be valid only for a small fraction of books published on the subject. For the vast majority of the material out in public as well as that yet to come, I think a more accurate disclaimer would be: "A miniscule part of the following might be true."

tartan cowboy | 12:09 p.m. May 30, 2009

butch; your comments are very insightful into the motives and psyche of a certain group who ride the historical plains.i know you have been reluctant to discuss your book,but i would look forward very much to reading it.any publish date as yet? thank you very much for your warm welcome,first time i,ve done anything like this and know i have not even scratched the surface on reading material.availability here in scotland is poor the internet should take care of that. any views on the photo in the eamonn oneill book outlaws?

Butch | 2:07 p.m. May 30, 2009

Tartan Cowboy:

I just now managed to purchase a copy of "Outlaws" by Eamon O'Neill. Shipping may take a few days, but if you still want my opinion on the photograph when the book arrives, I'll be more than happy to give it to you.

As far as discussing books in the works, you might have me confused with Jerry. If I'm certain of my position and feel I've investigated the matter completely I don't mind a bit putting the material out in public for discussion. Indeed, I prefer to do that.

The doctor's mistakes we bury,
The lawyer's mistakes we hang,
The journalist's mistakes we print.

Its worse, of course, if you write a book shot full of errors because unlike a journalist who can print a correction the next day, an author's error has eternal life.

Shelly's Three Keys To Immortality:

Father a son.
Plant a tree,
Write a book.

In my opinion it is much better to throw one's work out for public debate than closeting yourself with your editor and being forced to live with the consequences for eternity.

All Hail Bobby Burns!

Butch | 8:09 p.m. May 30, 2009

Tartan Cowboy:

Please let me know if you would be offended if I addressed you as "TCB". We Yanks have a tendency toward informality and enough rough edges to frost the tails on a diplomat's coat at the Court of St. James. We mean no offense. We're merely not understood by those across the pond.

True, our lesser angels, Buck, Ernst, and Patterson by default, Jerry, Amazin' Grace and Mad Mike, ply a trade of deception and lies by omission, commission and synthesis, never-the-less, there remains a core of unbridled optimists who persevere despite the odds.

Tell me Sir, do you know either the four code or the Keys to Rebecca? Let me know and we shall talk privately.

Ancient Mariner | 8:36 p.m. May 30, 2009

My Boys.

Neither of you have an inkling how long I have waited for your arrival. The four code is, quite naturally, 3-6-4. The Keys to Rebecca await those who chance to wander.

Barbarella | 9:01 p.m. May 30, 2009

I know for a fact that we're all going to get something very special on this blog very soon. Amazin Grace, Mad Mike, and Jerry Nickle are really going to hate it. Stay in touch.

tartan cowboy | 1:26 p.m. May 31, 2009

butch; last two posts have not made it.will see if this gets on then get back to you.

tartan cowboy | 2:27 p.m. May 31, 2009

barbarella:sounds exciting,is this news with reference to mr long?when can we expect it and by whom?
butch:hoping for third time lucky.i have no objection whatsoever being addressed as tcb.look forward to your views on photo.with reference to four code/the keys to rebecca.i'm flummoxed!the only things i can think of off the top of my head is
four code pertaining to the human gene/dna,and if memory serves,a group in mexico conserving knowledge/tradition.re rebecca,the only thing i can think is the novel.all of the aforementioned concern seeking truths,intrigueand revealing secrets.am i to believe pandoras box is about to be opened?sounds as though ancient mariner is in the loop.so what is your thoughts on what happened to bc/sk?i know you don't believe it was henry long.what about the elusive miss place?
cheers tcb.

Butch | 6:36 a.m. June 1, 2009

TCB:

There is always a danger when p[osing that others --"in the loop" as you said --jump ahead and try to goad one into making premature statements. Never-the-less, I'll do the best job I can, at this point, of demonstrating what Barbarella and Ancient Mariner might have been discussing.

I'll turn to "Detective Dimaio's Notebook Page With Comment on Sundance Kid, 1900", Container 93, Folio 4, Five Pages, Pinkerton National Detective Agency Records, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington, D. C.

On Page 3, sequentially, at the top of notebook Page 3, Dimaio wrote: "Report J. T. C. apr 3/1902" and then went on to note:"Its believed was (past tense) in Hospital Past Summer 1901 (circled in the original)in Buffalo NY pistol shot wound (location not specified)he said he got in extreme West...."

This is the origin of what Ms Ernst and Mr Buck claim to be a "Pinkerton Report" regarding treatment at the Pierce Medical Clinic in Buffalo.

I looked carefully through the records and was not able to find J. T. C.'s original report. That does not mean it is not there.

Continued ........

Butch | 6:51 a.m. June 1, 2009

It merely means that I could not find it. If in fact the original report does not exist, then, Mr Buck and Ms Ernst have mischaracterized a notebook reference to report as being a "Pinkerton Report".

There is more.

The Piece facilities in Buffalo were two in number. The medical clinic was located at 80 West Seneca Street while the Pierce Invalid's Hotel was located 9 1/2 blocks away at 653-655 Main Street. The Hotel catered not only to patients at the clinic but to travelers not using the services of the clinic. On Page 5 of the material there exists what purports to be a copy of the registration of "Ethel Place (next line) H. A. Place", however judging from the paper size and quality this appears to be a tracing from the hotel registry. If so, then what we have is evidence of Longabaugh and alias Ethel Place at the Hotel but not necessarily at the clinic.

Because Dimaio wrote in the past tense there is a strong indication that the notation referencing the "report" constitutes a Pinkerton "Mail Cover" on Samanna Longabaugh Hallman.

Continued ......

TM | 7:13 a.m. June 1, 2009

For all of us "Less informed". Could someone please take a momment and reveal the names of our bloggers? For those that have joined in late and to better follow the postings; a listing of the cast of characters would be most appreciated. It might also me helpful if when identified we know for sure who is in whose camp and those that have not taken a side as yet. A simple, "J" for Jerry and or a "B" for Buck after the revealing should do nicely I think.

Butch | 7:17 a.m. June 1, 2009

A "Mail Cover" was a standard clandestine operation in which a postal employee --in this case at either the Montclair or Philadelphia Post Office -- was employed to steam open Hallman mail, read the contents and forward a record of it to the closest Pinkerton Regional Office -- Philadelphia in this case.

We know that Longabaugh and alias Ethel Place boarded S. S. Soldier Prince in Buenos Aires on March 3, 1902 and arrived in New York City on April 3, 1902. Pinkerton, New York Office, Cable Traffic Log, Frank P. Dimaio, Buenos Aires, Argentina, 1902, Page 1 of 2, Container 87, Folio 2; Report of Frank P. Dimaio, September 17, 1941, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Page 2 of 3, Container 89, Folio 13; Pinkerton Report, July 29, 1902, New York Office, Criminal History Number 711, Harry Longabaugh et. al, Cross Index File Criminal History George Parker, Container 93, Folio 4, Pinkerton National Detective Agency Records, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington D. C.

TM | 7:28 a.m. June 1, 2009

Let me the first:
TM= Tom Mason,(Just someone interested in western lore) "waiting for DNA results" Leaning towards "J". The older photo of long with wife sure resembles all the photo's I've seen of Longabaugh. As for all the banter back and forth about where Longabaugh was and when... does not come across as hard or indisputable evidence and open for some debate and or questioning. Having said that I certainly appreciate the efforts, time and expense that both sides have made and continue to make to state their case.

Butch | 7:33 a.m. June 1, 2009

Thus, on the very day that Longabaugh and alias Place arrived in New York, Pinkerton received a report that Samanna received a letter from her brother in which he said that he had a pistol shot wound received in the west treated at the Pierce facility in Buffalo.

Allowing for mailing time from Buenos Aires to NYC and then transit to Philadelphia and subsequent transit to Montclair, I concluded that Samanna's letter was mailed from BA on or about February 25, 1902. If true, Longabaugh mailed his letter a week prior to his departure. And, if that is true, then we have Longabaugh setting the Pinkerton Hounds on his trail in the U.S. well in advance of his leaving the safety of South America and arriving in NYC a relatively short distance from the Pinkerton NYC office. Is that rational? If you were an escaping felon who had fled to SA to avoid prosecution, would you write a letter putting detectives on your trail? Before you arrived back in the U. S.?

But there is more.

SLC gal | 7:36 a.m. June 1, 2009

TM - just do what I do, read the article, look at the photos and make your own comparisons. To me it doesn't look like rocket science, the resemblance is striking.

Butch | 7:50 a.m. June 1, 2009

Dimaio's notebook Page 3 also says:

1.) Longabaugh "Left PA 16 years ago" and;

2.) "wrote 2 years ago to his sister Sammana who is Mrs O. J. Hallman Montclair PA may be writing him now."

If the April 3, 1902 mailcover resulted in a report that Longabaugh left PA 16 years previously --1886 - then Longabaugh did not spend 1882-1886 with his cousins in SW Colorado, but arrived in the west in eastern Wyoming near Lusk as detailed in Ms Ernst's new book.

Then too, if Longabaugh left PA in 1886, what are we to make of Ms Ernst's contention that he visited his PA relatives in January, 1901, told them he had a leg wound, and then ran off to the Pierce Clinic to have it treated. If that were true, why would he write a letter to his sister saying, once again, that he had an unspecified wound received in the west and had (past tense)it treated in Buffalo? He wouldn't, of course, if he had in fact visited his sister in January, 1901, and said the very same thing.

Continued .....

Butch | 8:04 a.m. June 1, 2009

If, on the other hand, we view Longabaugh's letter as a first telling of his leg wound and subsequent treatment in Buffalo, and discount a January 1901 visit to Samanna as never having taken place except in the mind of Ms Ernst, the letter makes sense.

The question I have for you TCB is really quite simple. Would you like further discussion of the issue of Frank Dimaio's notebook pages? Because you have an open mind, are you led toward a robust discussion and debate regarding the issue, or, are you content with the characterization of it put forward by "experts" and author's?

My question is an honest one. You are a member of the reading public and you have an interest in Western History. I would like to put my investigation and analysis into print in such a way and using such methodology as people with discerning and open minds find interesting, helpful, and informative.

It is my opinion that if we all look carefully at the whole body of evidence, discuss it and debate it, we shall all benefit enormously from the exercise. What say you, my Tartan friend?

tartan cowboy | 10:46 a.m. June 1, 2009

tm:i'm on the side of truth.
butch:
apologies was not my intention to goad you into disclosures prematurely.there seems very much to be inconsistencies in reports.i'm sure sundance would be well aware of the pinkertons' unethical and criminal procedures during investigations.zerelda samuel would attest to that.it's quite probable that bc/sk were so full of paranoia that every stranger would be seen as a potential threat so therfor why announce in advance your arrival to the very people you've traveled "thousands" of miles to avoid?
i would enjoy further discussion on the material available.i whole heartidly agree that all info has to be put forward and not just selected citations to enhance or move someones own subjective work forward in a manner akin to fitting square pegs into round holes!what print medium would your findings be on?

Butch | 11:19 a.m. June 1, 2009

TCB:

My apologies in return. If my blog was read as meaning that you were goading me, then I'm afraid I wasn't very clear. That statement was directed at two of my pals, Barbarella and Ancient Mariner, not at you.

That you want to discuss the material and evidence further is, to me, an indication that there is room among us for a book or books that does just that. Overall, the system of discussion and debate of the issues, evidence, and information benefits everyone --wanna be writers included -- and helps sharpen the arguments of those who wish to put forth a theory into the public arena.

I am always comforted by the adage: "The only dumb question is the one that was never asked." I have a lot of dumb questions, and when I ask them in a public forum such as this blog, I usually get a plethora of answers. That helps me a great deal.

As to Dimaio's notebook entry regarding a 16 year absence from PA, or an 1886 departure, do you agree that this is more evidence that we need to look more carefully into 1886/1887 Wyoming?

Continued ....

Butch | 11:31 a.m. June 1, 2009

I ask that question in view of my earlier debate with Mr. Buck on the 1887 Tom Nichols/Hall -Newberry cattle raising venture in SA. I find it interesting and worthy of exploration that, with Dimaio's notebook entry, we have another link to an association between Harry Longabaugh, the Keeline Ranch, and 1886/87 Eastern Wyoming and Argentina.

It seems more credible to me that Butch and Harry had a long association with Wyoming future Wild Bunch members and South America than that they went to SA on a whim or mere guess that they could evade capture. If I was going to commit a crime or if my continued freedom depended on non-discovery and apprehension, I would associate with people I knew well, trusted, and had a reasonable belief that they were allies based on long association. In short, I would be mistrustful of strangers and the unknown.

For that reason I was surprised by those on this blog who wanted to stop discussion on Wyoming 1886/1887. I think we have a good deal more to learn here. I value what others have to say and think. I'd very much like to read that.

Butch | 11:56 a.m. June 1, 2009

TCB:

I read your blog carefully. Good job on the Zerelda Sammuel comment!

One of the people I'm most interested in is George Lewis "Tex" Rickard and his involvement with the Musgrave/Snake River/Cattlemen in Paraguay. Rickard, who might well have been born the very time that Mrs Samuel's cabin was blown up, was intimately connected to Susan Lavinia James and her husband,Allen H. Parmer, a former member of Quantrille's Raiders, and who went to Texas with the Rickards in tow. Parmer later became associated with the Texas ranching interests that fed the maw of Wild Bunch catle rustling. Rickard, of course, went on to Alaska where the evidence is fairly good that he was visited by Bert Charter and later associated with Charter and Cassidy, along with Tom and Mid Nichols in Nevada before spearheading the effort in Paraguay.

The connection of James, Parmer, Rickard, Nichols, Musgrave, Cassidy,and Charter I believe, should be more fully explored. I'm very interested to know what you have to say about the matter.

Do you have "Magnificent Rube" by Samuels? "Goldfield" by Zanjani? They might interest you.

Anonymous | 1:06 p.m. June 1, 2009

Butch
Did the Pinkertons discover B&S went to Argentina because of the letter Sundance wrote from BA February 25 1902? I assume it had an Argentine stamp and post mark.

tartan cowboy | 1:08 p.m. June 1, 2009

butch:wow.theres more names here than in a russian novel!how do you keep track of them?
re dimaios notebook.does it state "left pa 16 years ago" or "that he hadn't been back in 16 years" how close was Harry to his family? what records are available re his presence in wyoming,and in particular with the keeline ranch?
what tou seem to have is at least two groups of cattle companys with strong links to SA.were they actively stealing horses across SA? is there any SA archive reporting their activities?what year was charter linked to snake river company?what year does BC and charters paths cross.any family tradition through charters that he frequented SA.this could make astrong case for BC also following suit.if tie ins are made it would suggest BC/SK did not travel there on a whim.isn't there a letter from BC when in cholila that says "i've been looking for a place like this for 20 years"does that suggest this was the first time he'd been there? maybe just the first time he'd seen that territory.continued...

tartan cowbow | 1:19 p.m. June 1, 2009

continued.
or maybe he'd just found the spread he'd always wanted.did they(BC/SK) resume their association with the other factions once in SA?when did the other companys disband?was the ranch at cholila used by these groups as arelay for stolen horses/cattle?
dont have "magnificent rube" or "goldfield" will check out summary on web.
still intrigued as to meaning of four code/the keys to rebecca!
look forward to your comments,butch.
ps.what is lutefisk?

Butch | 1:58 p.m. June 1, 2009

Anonymous:

Thank you for your interest and question. I was hoping to get another discussion going and you granted me my wish. Great question by the way.

1.) On Page 14 of Early Day History Of The Little Snake River Valley by John F. Gooldy it says:"An employee of Robert McIntosh received a letter from Harry from Walcott, Colorado, (I presume on or about November 5, 1900)and one from him in New York City, with a picture of him and his wife, saying he had married a Texas lady he had known previously. (I presume on or about February 19, 1901) A year from that time ( I presume February -March, 1902) another letter came from South America, in which he asked how things were in the valley." I believe best reading of the evidence is that Gooldy was refering to David Gillespie. If so, and because Gillespie received the DeYong photograph and it somehow got to the Pinkerton Agency, I believe it is reasonable to deduce that the SA letter was also known to the Pinkertons, and hence, that Harry Longabaugh was in Argentina.

Continued ......

Butch | 2:07 p.m. June 1, 2009

2.) If Dimaio's notebook entry is a valid and accurate reference to a mail cover on Samanna Hallman which was reported on April 3, 1902, then the origin of the letter (Argentina)and the contents (indicating Argentina)would have been known to the Pinkertons.

Therefore, my conclusion is that there were two sources of information about Harry being in Argentina: 1.) The Letter to David Gillespie; and 2.) The letter to Samanna Longabaugh Hallman.

I hope I answered your question satisfactorily.

Butch | 2:33 p.m. June 1, 2009

TCB:

1.) Keeping Track of Names: I set myself the task of re-creating the Pinkerton Files in their original cross-indexed form. I extended that system to include names, places, and events that do not appear in the Pinkerton files. My combined files are digitized. With a few key stokes I can call up a name and cross-filed information. Its very handy.

2.) Damaio's notebook entry: I gave the entry in quotation marks exactly as Dimaio wrote it. I am a real stickler for exact words in documents, precise accurate citations to documents, and non-manipulation of evidence.

3.) Harry close to family: I don't know how close Harry was or felt to his family. Most evidence suggests he had a special relationship with Samanna and Elwood. Perhaps Harvey as well. His relationship to his parents and Emma may have been distant.

4.)Evidence connecting Harry to Eastern Wyoming, Keeline Ranch, and Lusk: I refer you to Ms Ernst's "The Sundance Kid" pages 28-29 and notes 1 and 2, Chapter 5, Page 207.

Continued ..........

Anonymous | 2:42 p.m. June 1, 2009

TCB
Siringos book COWBOY DETECTIVE is a very good book. It has a lot about Burt Charter and Butch Cassidy.

Anonymous | 2:53 p.m. June 1, 2009

TCB
Another very good book is Anne Charters COWBOYS DONT WALK. She married into the Charter family.

Butch | 3:05 p.m. June 1, 2009

Caution: Ms Ernst's evidence is quite thin and I am checking her citations with great care with the assistance of local experts. I'll report on what I find.

5.)Two Cattle Operations: I believe that the Nichols/Hall-Newberry Patagonia operations 1887- 1910 are one you refer to and that the second is the Rickard/Musgrave -Farquart Rio Paraguay Operation circa 1910-1920.

6.) The record of outlaw activities by North Americans in South America is fairly extensive. See Meadows, "Digging Up Butch and Sundance" for an impressive introductory list.

7.) Bert Charter: A resident of the Little Snake until 1908, Charter was associated with all of the principal cattlemen, gamblers, and outlaws between 1887 and his death in the mid-1930s. Based on the 1908 Pinkerton Report cited and discussed earlier on this blog, Charter was associated with those who launched and acted in the Rio Paraguay venture. Bert Charter and George West Musgrave married sisters, Maud and Jano Magor. I think it would be fair to say that Bert Charter and Cassidy were linked at least by January, 1896 when Cassidy was released from the Penitentiary at Laramie. Perhaps earlier.

Continued .................

Butch | 3:24 p.m. June 1, 2009

I do not believe that Bert Charter was ever in South America. I am not aware of any Charter family tradition that Bert Charter was ever in South America.

8.) Butch in SA: I believe the first time Butch was in SA was March, 1901. I think the evidence is quite strong, based on Pinkerton reports, that Butch made more than one trip from SA to the US and then back again.

9.)The August 10, 1902 letter from Butch at Cholila to Mrs Davis in Utah is not, I believe, evidence that Butch was in SA prior to March, 1901. I believe it is very good evidence that Butch -- and Harry -- were in Chile at some point in 1901.

10.)I believe Rio Paraguay disbanded by circa 1920. Butch and Harry sold Cholila in 1905 and their buyer continued operations until circa 1916. The Newberry operation in Rio Negro province appears to have continued into the post WWI era. I know of no evidence that the Cholila Ranch was ever involved in any illegal activities.

11.) The Four Code: See Siringo, Cowboy Detective, Page 364.

Continued ..........

Butch | 3:43 p.m. June 1, 2009

12.) The Key To Rebecca: The book of the same name is a primer for breaking the Four Code. For the most part The Key To Rebecca will tell you how to use a key to a book code. A book code is a variant of the "one time pad" system of encription. Hint: The missing portion of the August 10, 1902 letter to Mrs. Davis contained the Four Code message to Elzy Lay that Siringo wrote about. Mrs. Davis is the mother of Maud Davis Lay, Elzy's first wife (common law). At the time of Butch's letter Maud was married to Oran L. Cury, a Gilsonite mine owner.
Cury was murdered February, 1903. The posse that chased the Winnemucca robbers recovered three sheets of blue stationary for Douglas Preston's Office. Preston and Mike Dunbar wrote to C. E. Rowe about "black stuff". Matt Warner claimed in "Bandit Rider" that he participated in bribing Elzy Lay out of prison by offering a Gilsonite mine to MN Governor Otero. Put it all together, crack the code, and you have a really wonderful solution to a great mystery.

Continued ...............

Butch | 3:49 p.m. June 1, 2009

Lucky 13.) Lutefisk is North Atlantic Cod, soaked in lye, and sun dried on wooden racks. It is reconstituted by soaking three days in cold water, baked, and then served with boiled potatos. Although it is uncharitably called "fish Jello" by non-Scandanavians, it is the Norsk equivalent of Fish and Chips.

I hope I answered your questions. It was very challenging. Thank you for the work-out.

Clarra Bell | 3:59 p.m. June 1, 2009

Does anyone else realize that Butch is on here in numerous personas even arguing with himself as one while he supports himself with another. Shame on you Butch. Lying, even to support what one thinks is right, is still lying. Not only are you not much of a historian, you are not very good at trying to psych people out with your games. Again, shame on you and all your personas.

Butch | 4:19 p.m. June 1, 2009

I agree with you, Clarra Bell, I'm not much of an historian. That is precisely why I need the help of you and others to guide me to the facts. Will you join in the discussion and debate?

Anonymous | 4:51 p.m. June 1, 2009

Butch
Thanks for you information. I hope you will clarify this for me. If Sundance sent the Feb 1902 BA letter to misdirect the Pinkertons to search for him in the USA why did he send it from BA? Sending the letter from BA would have told the Pinkertons he was in BA, which he did not want.

Clara Bell
Will you please show us where Butch is lying if he is.

Thank You

Butch | 5:30 p.m. June 1, 2009

Anonymous:

You ask great questions. If my blog was read to mean that Harry's letters to Samanna and Gillespie were written to misdirect the Pinkertons I need to write with more clarity. I didn't mean that. What I thought I was responding to was your question regarding how the Pinkertons knew Harry was in Argentina.

To the contrary, I don't believe that Harry was attempting to mis-direct the Pinkertons. What I did say -- and intended to say -- was that it was irrational for Harry to write a letter to Samanna that the Pinkertons were sure to discover that said, in effect: "You can get on my trail by looking at the Pierce Clinic in Buffalo". Both the letter to Gillespie and Samanna also told the Pinkertons exactly where Harry was --if not in the US --Argentina. The letters had the added effect of exposing Ms Ernst's ruse that Harry visited PA in January 1901.

But the real reason "Clara Bell" and the rest of Jerry Nickle's merry blogger band are so upset with me is that they begin to see two dangers to their preposterous theory that Bill is Harry.

Continued ...........

Butch | 5:46 p.m. June 1, 2009

1.) If we begin to unravel the story that Harry had a bullet wound in the leg -- or anywhere else, the Nickle gang is threatened by any discussion that might indicate Bill didn't get a leg wound at Cortez in 1891.

2.) Once we start to firm up the presence of Harry and Butch in SA in 1901 and early 1902, the Nickle gang is threatened by Bill's presence in Fremont late in 1901.

I wouldn't be too hard on Clara Bell. When a pet theory is on the verge of destruction, no matter how absurd or ill considered the theory is, tempers can flare.

I hope I answered your question. Harry never intended to mis-direct the Pinkertons and Harry acted irrationally in pointing out the trail to Buffalo, and also told the Pinkertons he was in Argentina --and that he was married to alias Ethel Place. He sent the DeYoung Photo to Gillespie but not to his PA family. (Ernst, The Sundance Kid, Page 132)On two trips from Argentina to New York he never once visited his family --including 1902.

Continued .........

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Archive photo

The Wild Bunch outlaws include the Sundance Kid, left front, and Butch Cassidy, right front. Similarities between William Henry Long and Sundance Kid have been noted.

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