Deseret News | Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?

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Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?

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Dora du Fran | 2:20 p.m. May 14, 2009

Kid Montana:

I think we should all follow Mark Lane's admonition to not "Rush To Judgment".

I also think we should lock Butch and Jerry in the back room of the Slick Rock and not let them out until they come up with the solution.

Not Butch | 2:28 p.m. May 14, 2009

Butch- Thanks for the information and while not "beyond a reasonable doubt" it still makes a lot of sense. We rarely get "BARD" do we? Concerning the Horn letter to Harris. There are a lot of old timers in Johnson Co. who disbelieve this. They will tell you that Speck and Horn were freindly. Horn certainly gets the location of Currie incorrect after Wilcox. I seriously doubt that Harvey Rae (Ray) was involved in the Wilcox robbery and he certainly was not one of the three that came north. There is also good evidence that the three did not go to Billy Hill's place on Red Fork to get remounted but in fact were remounted at John Nolen's in Kaycee, Wyoming.

Jerry Nickle | 4:11 p.m. May 14, 2009

We have just read some very compelling evidence that Alonzo was not one of the men in the Deadwood Jail. And what is the explanation for Billy Smith not recognizing the prisoner if he was Alonzo? The two men that went to Deadwood could not identify the prisoner because there were not given the chance. Just because they were not given the opportunity does not mean the prisoner was defiantly Alonzo
Here is another possibly; It takes 266 days from conception to birth. This means Luzernia became pregnant June 20, 1897 one week before Harry Alonzo was in Slater. Gillespie did not say exactly where he was on the 20. He could have been in Fremont and be considered an employee of Reader that just took some time off.

Comments continue below

Butch | 6:01 p.m. May 14, 2009

Jerry:

You were sailing along fine up to the 266 days for conception thing. Remember, Harry is a bronc stomper so he's real busy with the ramuda after spring round-up. No, Harry was with Reader from January through August 1, 1897. Which ever Harry it was didn't leave for a week or two of slap and tickle with Luzernia. That job belonged to Bill Long, an entirely different person than the Reader employed Harry.

So, send the Hollywoods on your payroll off to finish the comedy film. You need to get busy on your book. The book requires notes. Go to Page 13, third full paragraph, second sentence of the John F. Gooldy "Early Day History" document. Got it? That's your argument. That is the note for your argument. Now add Governor Wells letter and the Jones Brothers language. Bill can't be in two places at once. Neither can Harry.

I read Marilyn's blog of Feb 19. If you "solved" the mystery it must have been the same way Oliver Stone "solved" the JFK assassination. You'll never get away with that kind of thing in print.

Butch | 6:26 p.m. May 14, 2009

Jerry:

Punch up the "two" who went to help Frank Jones/Harry Longabaugh figure argument. Why did they rescue Thomas Jones, Frank Jones, and William C. Moore, and not help Tom O'Day and Walt Punteney? There is a very good reason and you should give it.

Finally, I believe you ought to address the Rawlins/Peoples Voice article head on.

No, don't look at your "Creative Executive Producer". Who ever heard of a "Creative Executive Producer" involved in a cold history case? Jerry, you don't create history --you uncover it and discover it by investigating it. "Creative Executive Producer"? What were you thinking of?

Butch | 9:52 a.m. May 15, 2009

Jerry:

On May 15, 1901, Pinkertons issued Reward Circular Number 1 for the Winnemucca Bank robbery. The Cicular says:" On June 28, 1897, under the name of Frank Jones, Longbaugh (sic) participated with Harvey Logan, alias Curry, and Tom O'Day and Walter Putney (sic) in the Belle Fourche (S. Dak.) bank robbery. All were arrested, but Longbaugh (sic) and Harvey Logan escaped from jail at Deadwood, October 31, 1897."

On February 3, 1902, Pinkerton Reward Circular Number 2 was issued and used the exact same language as quoted above regarding the Belle Fourche robbery.

On November 14, 1904, Pinkerton Reward Circular Number 3 was issued and contained the exact language relative to Belle Fourche as Circulars 1 & 2.

Between 1901 and 1904 Pinkerton Detectives were all over the Little Snake and were well aware of the Gillespie letter contention that Harry Longabaugh was at the Reader ranch at the time of the robbery. If we believe the "experts" David Gillespie was the source of the DeYong photograph.

Isn't this awfully good evidence that Harry Longabaugh/Longbaugh/Jones/Roberts/et al was different people at different times and different places? Was Bill Long one of them?

Jerry Nickle | 10:57 a.m. May 15, 2009

Page 13 of Gooldys manuscript does not say when he arrived in the Valley just when he left. He worked for other people besides Reader that winter and spring. That winter he and Burt Charter went to the mouth of the Big Hole tending the stockmans horses. That season he worked for William Crawford and may have worked for the Wrens as well so Gillespie was wrong when he said he had worked for Reader up until the middle of July. He may have left the Valley periodically. He and Burt Charter definitely left the valley and went to the mouth of the Big Hole. He and Charter may have gone to Fort Duchesne where Charters uncle was Quarter Master. Fort Duchesne is just up the road from Fremont. When did he leave one employer and sign with another one? Did he go to Fremont between employers? No one can answer these questions.
cont...

Jerry Nickle | 10:59 a.m. May 15, 2009

This was the last season he ever worked in the Valley or as a bronc buster. Did he break his nose here (which caused the Catarrh) and return home to Fremont to recuperate and then return for a visit from June 27 through Aug 1? When you are sick and take sick leave are you still considered an employee of the same person?
Please dont read things into these manuscripts that are not there and ignore evidence that weakens your argument. Dan Buck did this with the Mrs. Taylor Pinkerton memo and it disappoints me to see you do the same thing
The Hollywoods and I are having a lot fun, and pains me to think you are not with us. Remember I invited you to join us.

Butch | 1:12 p.m. May 15, 2009

Jerry,

Fair enough. However, you have to distinguish between the documents under discussion. If, as I thought, we were discussing the October 12, 1897, Gillespie letter than what I wrote is valid as applied to the case -- provided Gillespie's unnamed subject is Harry Longabaugh.

If you want to relate Helen Morgan's Three Volume set to the Gillespie letter, that's fine, we can do that, just let everyone know what you're talking about.

None of the documents or books in print so far have Bill Long as Harry. As far as "reading" something into documents, what about you and Marilyn having Bill/Harry impregnate Luzernia on June 20, 1897, make it to the Reader Ranch by June 28, 1897, and then ....?

But enough. It wouldn't be fair of me to state your argument. I leave that to you. Therefore, please allow me ask a question.

In your opinion, based on your reading of the relevant documents, where was Bill Long on June 28, 1897?

Butch | 1:54 p.m. May 15, 2009

Jerry,

You did indeed invite me to join you. Your blog this date is a perfect example of why I declined your invitation.

Jerry Nickle | 6:08 p.m. May 15, 2009

According to Gillespie Alonzo was up at Al Readers on June 28, 1897.

Anonymous | 6:25 a.m. May 16, 2009

"You did indeed invite me to join you. Your blog this date is a perfect example of why I declined your invitation."

Butch. Don't you think it would have shown a little more class to "decline" Jerry's invitation in a more private manner! You have made it somewhat clear that you don't agree with his idea.

Jerry. Ask someone else.

Jerry Nickle | 11:20 a.m. May 16, 2009

Annonymous.
I made the issue public and Butch answered publicly. he did the right thing.

Ghosttown Bob | 11:17 a.m. May 18, 2009

Jerry: you wrote "This was the last season he ever worked in the Valley or as a bronc buster. Did he break his nose here (which caused the Catarrh) and return home to Fremont to recuperate. . ."

If this is true, then Bill Long's standing picture showing his broken nose would have to have been taken between Aug 1897 and mid 1900. Is this when you say this picture was taken???

Ghosttown Bob | 11:37 a.m. May 18, 2009

Jerry: you wrote: "Fort Duchesne is just up the road from Fremont"

I really don't consider the Fort Duchesne/Roosevelt area just up the road from Fremont. It is close to 170 miles (give or take a few). It is about half way between the Little Snake River and Fremont. Fremont is a hard three day ride from Ft. Duchesne, or a six day round trip.

Ghosttown Bob | 11:53 a.m. May 18, 2009

Jerry, Gillespie's letter does not name Harry Alonzo as his friend. But it does explicitly imply that his friend was working for Al Reader during the summer of 1897. His use of the language "who worked for Al Reader up till the middle of July" is a direct implication that his friend was working for Al Reader before that time, the general tone being that of several weeks or months before that time. The correlation is that If I said that I worked for the Air Force up until the middle of July, I mean that I was working for the Air Force before July for a duration longer than a few weeks.

Ghosttown Bob | 12:04 p.m. May 18, 2009

The People's Voice article corroborates the Gillespie letter and defines who the "friend" was. It says: "Alonzo wrote down to some friends who had previously known him to come up and identify him" It then names E Lahey and J. Galloway as those who came to Pierre to identify him. Gillespie goes on to state that "when arrested he . . . didn't give has right name as he didn't want it to get to the papers. He and his lawyer both wrote telling how the matter stood and wanted me and one or two others to go there and prove that he was on Snake River at the time of the bank hold up. . . Two left here last night. . . "

This could not be clearer.

Hitch | 10:11 a.m. May 20, 2009

Ghosttown Bob:

I think your argument about Harry Longabaugh in regard to the Gillespie letter is persuasive, and therefore, I think that Bill Long can not possibly be Longabaugh.

Will you discuss Bill Long being in Loa in 1901 in an altercation with Morrell as being more proof that Long is not Longabaugh. I don't understand why Long's presence in Loa in 1901 doesn't settle the matter. Thanks.

Buck Critic | 2:43 p.m. May 20, 2009

The Loa 1901 altercation absolutely settles it, for those that choose to ignore the Pinkerton files. Your Welcome

Ghosttown Bob | 1:34 p.m. May 21, 2009

Hitch: You bring up a good question concerning Bill Long and the 1901 altercation with his wifes ex brother-in-law George Morrell. The short answer is that that it should settle the question of Bill Long being Harry Longabaugh. According to the conventional wisdom, ie. Buck, Meadows, Patterson, and others, Butch and Sundance (Longabaugh and Parker) were in South America at the time of the fight. However, Jerry and others, as we have seen on this board, have challenged this assertion, claiming that both Longabaugh and Parker were still in the Western U. S. at this time, with Harry Longabaugh, posing as Bill Long, being home with his wife and kids during October 1901 in time to confront George Morrell on October 21st. Jerry claims that Parker and Longabaugh and Etta Place did not leave for South America until 1902.

Ghosttown Bob | 1:36 p.m. May 21, 2009

The Denver Office sent Charlie Siringo, one of their undercover agents into Utah in the fall of 1900 tracking the Tipton/Wilcox robbers. He lost their trail during the winter of 1900/1901near Bluff, Utah. He was then sent to Alma, New Mexico early in 1901 since they thought the crooks may have been making their way there as money from the Wilcox robbery had been passed in the Alma area the year previous. Before being pulled from the hunt in New Mexico and sent north, Siringo apparently talked to people who claimed that Jim Lowe (an alias of Parkers) was still in the area.

Ghosttown Bob | 1:37 p.m. May 21, 2009

As a result of Siringo's investigation the Denver Office issued criminal histories (circulars) on Parker and Longabaugh in 1902 detailing the information they had from Siringo and other informants. I am not sure of the number of the Parker history, but an accomaning one on Longabaugh was listed as "Denver Criminal History No. 1961" and was dated Mar 1 1902. The Parker history recounts what Siringo was told by Blake Graham while in while on a stage traveling to Silver City, New Mexico, and from others that Jim Lowe was still in the area. The Longabaugh history relates information recieved from a correspondant that Longabaugh was in Price and Vernal in July of 1901.

Ghosttown Bob | 1:38 p.m. May 21, 2009

At the same time of the Denver office's investigations, an agent from Philidelphia was making inquiries in Pennsylvania in Longabaugh's home town, which included going through the Longabaugh families mail (a federal offense) concerning Harry Longabaugh's whereabouts. His handwritten report included background on Harry and his family, visits to family members and this statement: "Its believed was in Hospital last Summer 1901 in Buffalo NY . . . " This is the oft mentioned April 3, 1902 report.

These three histories/reports have been used by Jerry and other Long/Longabaugh supporters to claim that Parker and Longabaugh were in the Western U.S. until 1902.

SLC gal | 2:07 p.m. May 21, 2009

Good night, You all are still going back and forth on this? D News needs to print a followup!

Anonymous | 2:24 p.m. May 21, 2009

Jerry, I am just a casual observer - but I notice you state "It takes 266 days from conception to birth" and then follow up with an argument that it could not be because of a one week gap between the contrived date of conception and the date Harry was suppose to be in Slater.

Ever study any real Biology? - reproductive cycles are averages and not pinned down to exact number of days. A one week deviation is totally plausible. This is not viable evidence at all.

Anonymous | 2:26 p.m. May 21, 2009

Butch Cassidy didn't die in South America - those who live in the small towns around where he grew up know that. His family confessed to those they knew well enough that Butch came back home, and I have a great-uncle who can point to the canyon in Southern Utah where he was quietly buried.

Hitch | 7:26 p.m. May 21, 2009

Ghosttown Bob:
I would like to thank you for your answer to my question. I believe you are convincing, and I thank you for your effort in making a factual response. Quite frankly, I am appalled at Marilyn Grace a/k/a Anonymous, and her ham handed attempts at stifling debate on issues I, and others, find of interest.

If Ms. Grace is successful with her film, in spite of her all too obvious inadequacies, I expect it will be because she is awarded the FDR Tabernacle Award.

Thanks again for responding to my question.

Hitch

Kid Montana | 7:38 p.m. May 21, 2009

A-Ninny-Mouse:

If you had been paying attention --beyond your ability regarding an attention span --you would have noticed that after the 1909 Pinkerton report was introduced on this blog, no one --except you --ever thought that Butch Cassidy and Harry Longabaugh didn't return from South America.

Please do try and keep up with the discussion. Really! You're such a complete bore!

Anonymous | 7:55 a.m. May 22, 2009

Would you forgive Mrs. Grace if she just wrote a book about her trip (travels) to Utah? As others have done.

Ghosttown Bob | 8:25 a.m. May 22, 2009

(The following paragraph should be inserted between the 1:34 and 1:36 pm May 21st posts. )

Now the source of this problem comes from the files of the Pinkerton National Detective Agency. The Pinkertons, as they were known were employed by several of the railroad companies to track down the bands of railroad thieves, of which the Wild Bunch was one, and eliminate or bring them to justice. Their investigations and pursuit of were widespread involving many different regional Pinkerton offices, many of which did not necessarily coordinate with each other. The Denver Office led the hunt in the West for the Wilcox and Tipton train robbers, and the Winnimucca Bank robbery, all of which were attributed to various members of the Wild Bunch.

Hitch | 9:38 a.m. May 22, 2009

Ghosttown Bob:

I believe your most recent post is of great value for those of us interested in the Wild Bunch. In the same vein, I would like to add that reports from the New York, Philadelphia, and Chicago offices were mixed into the reports from the Denver office. Then too, Argentine, Chilean, Bolivian government officials and law enforcement officers added their reports and information.

If we consider that the Wild Bunch, or members of it, operated from circa 1885 through circa 1920 on two continents, I find it absolutely incredible that we know as much as we do about them. I also believe that all of us should compliment every author for their attempts to unravel the story.

You've added a lot to our understanding of the Wild Bunch. Thank you.

Ghosttown Bob | 3:12 p.m. May 22, 2009

Thanks Hitch for the nice comment. Here's more:

Around this same time Longabaugh apparently wrote a friend, presumably David Gillespie of the Little Snake River Valley, and enclosed a picture of himself and a woman he identified as his wife, whom he said, he had met previously in Texas. The letter and picture were passed on to the Pinkerton agency, again apparently by Gillespie. The picture was traced back to New York where the New York office undertook an investigation. The New York offices investigation resulted in their issuing their own Criminal History on Longabaugh dated July 29, 1902.

Ghosttown Bob | 3:13 p.m. May 22, 2009

The New York Criminal History detailed what the New York office was able to ascertain about the photograph and Longabaugh, Parkers, and Places activities in New York. Among the information they found were that the photo was taken at the DeYoung Studio in New York City, that during Feb. 1901 under the name of Harry E. Place he and Ethel whom was believed to be his wife, lived at the boarding house of a Mrs. Taylor, that Longabaugh was treated at the Pierce Medical Institute in Buffalo, New York, and again by a Dr. Weinstein in New York City, and that they left for Argentina on Feb. 20, 1901, returned to New York on board the steamship Soldier Prince 3 April 1902, and lastly that George Parker under the name of Ryan was also with Longabaugh and Place in New York, sailed with them to Argentina, but did not return with then in 1902.

Ghosttown Bob | 3:15 p.m. May 22, 2009

They were later able to get a description from hospital officials of Longabaugh and Place, identified as Harry A Place and Mrs. Harry A. Place from treatments they received in May of 1902. This description appeared on all of the Pinkertons wanted circulars of Parker and Longabaugh, and Place for the next few years.

Ghosttown Bob | 3:16 p.m. May 22, 2009

Lastly, following up on the New York information, the Pinkerton Agency through one of their operatives in Rio de Janeiro, Frank Diamaio, who traveled to Buenos Aires in March of 1903, found evidence of Parker, Longabaugh and Place in Argentine records. In May, 1903 Diamaio wrote a handwritten report which included the following: Record of Longabaugh and Place sailing to the U.S. in March 1902 aboard the S.S. Soldier Prince. Documents in the Colonial Land Department dated 2 April 1902 that Place & Ryan had settled of four square leagues of land near Cholilo. That Harry A Place opened an account with the London $ River Plate Bank March 23 1901. On May 6, 1902 they cashed a check for $3,546, dated April 2, 1902, made by one, signed by another. This was dated when Longabaugh was enroute to New York. That Longabaugh and Place arrived back in Argentina Aug 9, 1902 aboard the Honorius and that they were listed as purser and stewardess on the ship.

Ghosttown Bob | 3:17 p.m. May 22, 2009

These three reports/histories are the ones that those who follow the conventional wisdom use to show that Parker, Longabaugh and Place were in New York in early 1901, and left for Argentina of Feb. 20th, 1901. Notice that all six of these documents cover roughly the same time period, early 1901 through mid 1902. Since none of these portions of the Pinkerton agency were really coordinating with each other, no wonder the Agency as a whole was confused for a time, including William A. Pinkerton himself.

Ghosttown Bob | 3:18 p.m. May 22, 2009

The problem here is which set of reports, documents, histories are the most credible, and are based on the most factual information that can be verified from outside sources. One set, principally from the Denver office, claims that Longabaugh and Parker were in New Mexico, Utah, or Wyoming in 1901 1902, while the New York office, supplemented by the Diamaio report claimed that they had been in New York, then Argentina during this same time period. If you believe the Denver office reports, then Longabaugh could have been Bill Long who then, could have been in Fremont, Utah beating up on George Morrell in Oct of 1901. But you have to disregard the New York reports completely. Now if you believe the New York and Dimaio reports, then Longabaugh could not possibly have been in Fremont head banging with George Morrell, now way, no how.

GORDON | 6:22 p.m. May 23, 2009

To Ghosttown Bob-----the facts and data you have amazes me----you should put this all in a book

Cheyenne | 11:40 a.m. May 26, 2009

If the truth about Butch and Sundance was ever found out how boring it would be. After all what would people have to speculate about. Let it rest.

Denver | 4:38 p.m. May 26, 2009

Cheyenne:

Unless you know "the truth about Butch and Sundance" how do you know it would be boring? The only people on this blog who claim to know "the truth" are Marilyn Grace and Jerry Nickle and possibly Mike Karr. Our intrepid Hollywoods make the claim that truth consists of Bill Long being Harry Longabaugh, that 1901 Pinkerton reports are "forgeries", that Luzernia got pregnant without Bill Long being present (immaculate conception?)and that we all ought to drop further inquiry into their preposterous story.

Cheyenne, that is anything but boring. Hilarious? Yes! Outrageous? Yes! Slapstick History? Yes! Serial Intellectual Pratfalls? Oh, Yes! But never boring. No, not boring at all!

If you really think that the Bill Long story as told by Marilyn, Mike, and Jerry is boring, then I would love to know your opinion of Harry Reed. Care to share?

Anonymous | 5:23 p.m. May 26, 2009

"Let it rest." Excellent idea Cheyenne.

I believe I heard, that is exactly what Mrs. Dora Flack said.

What difference? | 5:59 p.m. May 26, 2009

What difference would it really make if Butch or Sundance were one of a dozen people? Does it really change the course of history significantly? Does it really matter in any material way? I think the conjecture is entertainmenty and thats what keeps this thread going.

Anonymous | 7:31 p.m. May 26, 2009

"Does it really change the course of history significantly? Does it really matter in any material way?"

What difference, might want to ask Buck and Ernst that question. If the embers aren't stirred, the fire will go out. No fire, no book sales.

Kid Crow | 12:59 p.m. May 27, 2009

We started out on this blog with Marilyn Grace crowing about having solved the Bill Long/Harry Longabaugh case. After we discussed Harry being at the Little Snake on June 28, 1897 and Bill Long pistol whipping George Morrell late in 1901, Ms Grace was forced to eat crow and begged us to "give it a rest", i.e. close off discussion. Jerry Nickle claims to be having a good time with the Hollywoods while his film and book projects are routinely savaged on this blog. Is Jerry's euphoria the result of taking a few hits off a bottle of Old Crow?

This old Crow is of that golden age when a public school education consisted of being taught how to think and not what to think. We also learned to have reverence for truth and American history.

Does it matter? For a good many of us old timers it matters a lot. If I have a vote I want to cast it in favor of continuing debate on this blog.

Unsolicited advice to Ms Grace: Don't quit your day job. You're not ready for prime time.

Jerry Nickle | 5:45 p.m. May 27, 2009

We will see who eats crow and it won't be me.

Jerry Nickle | 5:53 p.m. May 27, 2009

I will give you a hint, his initials are DB

TM | 1:51 p.m. May 28, 2009

Kid Crow...for an old timer you are certainly intitled to your opinion; I too enjoy this blog. However, for a "old timer" I'm somewhat suprised by the tone you take..that of "all knowing". I would think you would know like the rest of us that hard facts on this subject are rare. I welcome your comments as much as all the others..but place not a lot of value on yours over that of anyone elses. Let the DNA settle the Longabaugh/Long question as it should.

Jimlyn | 4:13 p.m. May 28, 2009

I don't know what is on the menu, crow or moose stew,but isn't about time that dinner is served?

lhayden | 7:42 p.m. May 28, 2009

I wonder why my comments of May 27 weren't posted? I followed the instructions to the letter...

Anonymous | 10:02 a.m. May 29, 2009

Where were all you know it all's/experts when the excavating was going on in So Am ? It is Mr. Nickle's buck (of course, no pun intended) let him spend it as he sees fit. Get off his back.

If you don't like his program, switch stations.

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7 photos

Archive photo

The Wild Bunch outlaws include the Sundance Kid, left front, and Butch Cassidy, right front. Similarities between William Henry Long and Sundance Kid have been noted.

Gallery (7 photos)