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Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?
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Kid Lutefisk | 4:25 p.m. May 9, 2009
Jerry is investigating. Jerry is spending his own money, time and effort,
depriving his family, using the resaources of his family, friends, climbing into
the saddle and riding into the blistering heat of the San Rafael, thirsty, hot ,
tired, over-age, and in poor health. He does that for you, Gordon.
I believe that Jerry Nickle, my fellow saddle tramp, has more honesty, brains, dedication, integrity, love for his American colleagues, and courage than any other man I know. I'm proud to call the man my friend. We disagree. We fight, argue, and insult each other like an old married couple. In the end, our disagreements advance the ball.Each and every one of the readers of this blog
benefits. You already have knowledge no one else does, you've already been privy to the 1908, and 1909 material. If you stay on this blog, you're going to get more solid information on American History, the men and women who really settled the west, the Parkers, Longabaughs, and others, than you will ever get from any other source short of Jerry's book or mine. Oops! Does Deseret News have a scoop?
I believe that Jerry Nickle, my fellow saddle tramp, has more honesty, brains, dedication, integrity, love for his American colleagues, and courage than any other man I know. I'm proud to call the man my friend. We disagree. We fight, argue, and insult each other like an old married couple. In the end, our disagreements advance the ball.Each and every one of the readers of this blog
benefits. You already have knowledge no one else does, you've already been privy to the 1908, and 1909 material. If you stay on this blog, you're going to get more solid information on American History, the men and women who really settled the west, the Parkers, Longabaughs, and others, than you will ever get from any other source short of Jerry's book or mine. Oops! Does Deseret News have a scoop?
Kid Lutefisk | 5:32 p.m. May 9, 2009
Ghosttown Bob and I are two entirely different people. As previously stated I am
a dead ringer for Cary Grant in his prime. On the other hand,GTB is a dead
ringer for Harrison Ford.How could you possibly confuse the two of us?
Comments continue below
Kid Lutefisk | 6:09 p.m. May 9, 2009
In the interests of full disclosure, I admit I am not Ghosttown Bob. Readers of
this blog might well wonder why only two bloggers, Ms Robison and Anonymous,
focus on the issue of who is whom. The rest of us debate issues, or try to, with
fact, footnote, and argument under normal rules of constructive debate.
The only two bloggers, Ms Robison and Ms Anonymous who snipe at identities sans fact, regard for truth, and total disregard for fact are Ms. Robison and Ms. Anonymous.
Got the guts to go one on one with Kid Lutefisk, Ms Robison and Ms Anonymous? Are either one of you really stupid enough to take me on? Do you really want your foibles revealed in public? How anxious are either of you to have your worst secrets made public?
Ladies, I'm your absolute worst nightmare. In the words of Henry Higgins, "The Angles will weep for you." I look forward with unbridled anticipation to your response.
Kid Lutefisk
The only two bloggers, Ms Robison and Ms Anonymous who snipe at identities sans fact, regard for truth, and total disregard for fact are Ms. Robison and Ms. Anonymous.
Got the guts to go one on one with Kid Lutefisk, Ms Robison and Ms Anonymous? Are either one of you really stupid enough to take me on? Do you really want your foibles revealed in public? How anxious are either of you to have your worst secrets made public?
Ladies, I'm your absolute worst nightmare. In the words of Henry Higgins, "The Angles will weep for you." I look forward with unbridled anticipation to your response.
Kid Lutefisk
Kid Lutefisk | 7:51 p.m. May 9, 2009
Ghotsttown Bob:
While the ladies debate the wisdom of going one on one with me, I would very much appreciate your opinion on the issue of the Gillespie letter relative to the new book by Ms Ernst. Because Ms Ernst, in her new book, acknowledges that the Gillespie letter of October 12, 1897, is depositive of the issue as to Harry Longabaugh's involvement in the Belle Fourche robbery, are we all now at the point where Bill Long is excluded, ipso invedio, as being the same person as Harry Longabaugh? Oh, querry, querry, Sir.
I remain your humble servant.
Butch,
Also Known As Kid Lutefisk
While the ladies debate the wisdom of going one on one with me, I would very much appreciate your opinion on the issue of the Gillespie letter relative to the new book by Ms Ernst. Because Ms Ernst, in her new book, acknowledges that the Gillespie letter of October 12, 1897, is depositive of the issue as to Harry Longabaugh's involvement in the Belle Fourche robbery, are we all now at the point where Bill Long is excluded, ipso invedio, as being the same person as Harry Longabaugh? Oh, querry, querry, Sir.
I remain your humble servant.
Butch,
Also Known As Kid Lutefisk
Kid Lutefisk | 8:40 p.m. May 9, 2009
Ghosttown Bob:
We are very rapidly drawing this matter to a close. I believe you are quite right in that Jerry is sincere in his quest. The supporting players, however, are far from being what they pretend to be.
We are all watching a train-wreck in the making, and that is a tragedy for Jerry, his family, and his friends, both you and I among the latter. Once the HollywoodS arrived, "Truth was the first casualty." Some of us, Jerry's pals, took the precaution on his behalf to protect him. To that end, being mindful of the axiom regarding lawsuits for either defamation or libel, that "Truth is the ultimate defense", we have carefully prepared for the eventuality that our future legal opposition is, shall we say, "litigious".
The issue of litigation was never in doubt. Jerry's sincerity, dedication, resolve, integrity, and personal committment to principles was never in doubt. Only the offal that spiraled down the drain within the orbit of Jerry's star are not identified. That will be corrected when Ms Robison and Anonymous surface for battle.
Of course, my ultimate target is Mr. Buck, with the secondary target being Ms. Ernst.
We are very rapidly drawing this matter to a close. I believe you are quite right in that Jerry is sincere in his quest. The supporting players, however, are far from being what they pretend to be.
We are all watching a train-wreck in the making, and that is a tragedy for Jerry, his family, and his friends, both you and I among the latter. Once the HollywoodS arrived, "Truth was the first casualty." Some of us, Jerry's pals, took the precaution on his behalf to protect him. To that end, being mindful of the axiom regarding lawsuits for either defamation or libel, that "Truth is the ultimate defense", we have carefully prepared for the eventuality that our future legal opposition is, shall we say, "litigious".
The issue of litigation was never in doubt. Jerry's sincerity, dedication, resolve, integrity, and personal committment to principles was never in doubt. Only the offal that spiraled down the drain within the orbit of Jerry's star are not identified. That will be corrected when Ms Robison and Anonymous surface for battle.
Of course, my ultimate target is Mr. Buck, with the secondary target being Ms. Ernst.
Dora du Fran | 8:57 p.m. May 9, 2009
I thought I asked an intelligent series of questions. I put work and thought
into my comment. No one has responded to me. So far this blog has concerned
itself with comments between insiders bent on crucifying each other. May we
please return to constructive, informative, debate of the issues?
Kid Lutefisk | 9:36 p.m. May 9, 2009
Madame Du Fran,
Thank you for drawing attention to our collective bad behavior. Please allow me the honor of apologizing first for our transgressions.
Ms. Ernst is quite notorious for innapropriate citations, poor form in citations, innacurate citations, outrageously poor scholarship, abysmal technique, and an ever-present proclivity to mis-characterize citations, a la Mr Buck.
In my very humble opinion, page 123 is the epitome of outrageous scholarship. Would you, Ma'm, favor our discussion group with your analysis? I'm quite sure we would all be in your debt.
Butch
Thank you for drawing attention to our collective bad behavior. Please allow me the honor of apologizing first for our transgressions.
Ms. Ernst is quite notorious for innapropriate citations, poor form in citations, innacurate citations, outrageously poor scholarship, abysmal technique, and an ever-present proclivity to mis-characterize citations, a la Mr Buck.
In my very humble opinion, page 123 is the epitome of outrageous scholarship. Would you, Ma'm, favor our discussion group with your analysis? I'm quite sure we would all be in your debt.
Butch
Dora du Fran | 10:39 p.m. May 9, 2009
As to the matter of whether or not you, Sir, Mr. Butch, are forgiven, that
matter will remain in doubt for the time being.
Ms Ernst, on page 123, deliberately confuses and intertwines 2 documents, the WPA Gouldy Interview, and the subsequent monograph of David Gillespie the son of David Gillespie.
To begin, Ernst says that Harry was asked by Gillespie if the stories of Harry being a member of the Wild Bunch was true. There are two different responses. The Gillespie response was: "No Dave, that isn't true." The Gouldy response was that Harry admitted robbing the Winnemucca Bank.
In the Gillespie version, Harry "slept in the barn to save money". In the Gouldy version Harry slept in the barn to avoid recognition. Really? Longabaugh was a steady fixture from at least 1896 through 1897 in Little Snake Valley. He would be recognized by everyone!
There are multiple and significant differences between Gillespie and Gouldy. If you wish to know where they are, what they are, and read a full description of the event see Jerry's book and see Butch and Cherokee,s book.
Ms Ernst, on page 123, deliberately confuses and intertwines 2 documents, the WPA Gouldy Interview, and the subsequent monograph of David Gillespie the son of David Gillespie.
To begin, Ernst says that Harry was asked by Gillespie if the stories of Harry being a member of the Wild Bunch was true. There are two different responses. The Gillespie response was: "No Dave, that isn't true." The Gouldy response was that Harry admitted robbing the Winnemucca Bank.
In the Gillespie version, Harry "slept in the barn to save money". In the Gouldy version Harry slept in the barn to avoid recognition. Really? Longabaugh was a steady fixture from at least 1896 through 1897 in Little Snake Valley. He would be recognized by everyone!
There are multiple and significant differences between Gillespie and Gouldy. If you wish to know where they are, what they are, and read a full description of the event see Jerry's book and see Butch and Cherokee,s book.
Shoshoni | 10:54 p.m. May 9, 2009
I was present at the Medicine Wheel when the Cheorkee told the story of the five
rivers. The Cherokee pointed at the Bear's Tooth and the rivers of life
flowing from the medicine wheel. If the Cheorkee is Kate, make your sign known.
Butch and Cherokee | 11:19 p.m. May 9, 2009
Kid Norski is Butch Iverson
Cherokee Kate is Butch's wife
Kid Nickle is Jerry Nickle
Belle Nickle is Jerry's wife
The Nickle family and the Iversons are close friends. Dora du Fran is an outbounder who gave away a secret that she ought not to have revealed. Never-the-less, Jerry and Butch, with separate books comming out, actually do fight, argue, and then kiss and make up. Both the Cherokee and Belle are long suffering wives who watch their men, roll their eyes to the heavens, and then offer prayers
on behalf of their men.
Cherokee Kate is Butch's wife
Kid Nickle is Jerry Nickle
Belle Nickle is Jerry's wife
The Nickle family and the Iversons are close friends. Dora du Fran is an outbounder who gave away a secret that she ought not to have revealed. Never-the-less, Jerry and Butch, with separate books comming out, actually do fight, argue, and then kiss and make up. Both the Cherokee and Belle are long suffering wives who watch their men, roll their eyes to the heavens, and then offer prayers
on behalf of their men.
Cherokee Kate | 11:40 p.m. May 9, 2009
Shoshoni,
The five rivers and the Bear's Tooth are true. The five rivers wedded to the Bear's Tooth are the Shakopee of the Dakota.
The five rivers and the Bear's Tooth are true. The five rivers wedded to the Bear's Tooth are the Shakopee of the Dakota.
Anonymous | 12:16 p.m. May 10, 2009
It's Gooldy not Gouldy. The Gillespie responce "No Dave, that
isn't true." was made well before the Winnemucca robbery.
Jerry Nickle | 4:51 p.m. May 10, 2009
Butch Iversons Book will trump everything else that has been published. He
will have the most compressive research published to date. I can hardly wait
to read it.
We disagree on a few things, we fight and I swear I will not to speak to him again and then we kiss and make up. I am drawn like a moth to fire.
After this is finished we are going to cerebrate by shooting up the Red Dog Saloon in old Giles town. Cherokee Kate and Belle Nickle will be there, and I hope a few other people will be there too.
We disagree on a few things, we fight and I swear I will not to speak to him again and then we kiss and make up. I am drawn like a moth to fire.
After this is finished we are going to cerebrate by shooting up the Red Dog Saloon in old Giles town. Cherokee Kate and Belle Nickle will be there, and I hope a few other people will be there too.
Ghosttown Bob | 8:54 a.m. May 11, 2009
I hope everyone had a wonderful Mother's Day weekend.
Butch/Lutefisk: Sorry I started the ball rolling on this identity thing, which resulted in getting your cover blown. I was just funnin around. Ms Robison has been trying to guess who I am for months.
Butch/Lutefisk: Sorry I started the ball rolling on this identity thing, which resulted in getting your cover blown. I was just funnin around. Ms Robison has been trying to guess who I am for months.
Ghosttown Bob | 9:34 a.m. May 11, 2009
Butch/Lutefisk: You asked the question concerning David Gillespie's 12
October 1897 letter: "Because Ms Ernst, in her new book, acknowledges that
the Gillespie letter of October 12, 1897, is depositive of the issue as to Harry
Longabaugh's involvement in the Belle Fourche robbery, are we all now at
the point where Bill Long is excluded, ipso invedio, as being the same person as
Harry Longabaugh?
To answer your question, yes it does. For Evinda to have been William Henry Long's daughter, he would have had to have been in Fremont around June 29th. Gillespie's letter clearly states his friend, whom he does not name, was working for Al Reader up until the middle of July. abd that he was in Slater on June 27th and the Reader Ranch on the 28th. He also implies that he was in the neighborhood until Aug. 1st.
Now Gillespie in the letter did not name who his friend was. The other records you have previously names all identify him as either Harry Alonzo, Harry Longabaugh, or both. To add to you impressive list you may also want to include:
To answer your question, yes it does. For Evinda to have been William Henry Long's daughter, he would have had to have been in Fremont around June 29th. Gillespie's letter clearly states his friend, whom he does not name, was working for Al Reader up until the middle of July. abd that he was in Slater on June 27th and the Reader Ranch on the 28th. He also implies that he was in the neighborhood until Aug. 1st.
Now Gillespie in the letter did not name who his friend was. The other records you have previously names all identify him as either Harry Alonzo, Harry Longabaugh, or both. To add to you impressive list you may also want to include:
Ghosttown Bob | 9:44 a.m. May 11, 2009
(Continued): The Buffalo "Peoples Voice" 30 Oct 1897 issue, and the
"Rawlins Journal" from which the "Peoples Voice" story was
taken which both name Harry Alonzo as the person arrested for the Belle Fourche
Robbery but who was sending to the Slater/Baggs area for witnesses to vouch that
he was in Slater at the time of the robbery.
Now unless someone can prove that Harry Alonzo was not Harry Longabaugh, this is proof that Harry Longabaugh and William Henry Long are not one and the same.
Now I suspect that all this is leading to your announcement of who you think Long is.
Now unless someone can prove that Harry Alonzo was not Harry Longabaugh, this is proof that Harry Longabaugh and William Henry Long are not one and the same.
Now I suspect that all this is leading to your announcement of who you think Long is.
Butch | 2:09 p.m. May 11, 2009
Ghosttown Bob:
No harm, no foul. I expect about 99.9% of the players on this blog all know who each other are. The wonderful thing about this blog is that there is an incredible amount of solid, published evidence on it that has not yet found its way into either one of Ms Ernst's books, or anything Ms Meadows or Mr. Buck have published. This is a win/win blog for all of us.
If you're anticipating an announcement from me as to who I think Bill Long is, I'm afraid I'm going to disapoint you. The reason is quite simple. Kid Nickle and I are still arguing that one. I'm not about to do that while the jury is still out. Allow me to use an example. Consider the issue of hight.
1.) Dr McCullough found Bill Long, at death, in 1936 to be 5' 8" tall.
2.) The only definative height measurement of Harry Longabaugh was at his age 20 in 1887 when he was incarcerated at Sundance, Wyoming.
Continued ...........
No harm, no foul. I expect about 99.9% of the players on this blog all know who each other are. The wonderful thing about this blog is that there is an incredible amount of solid, published evidence on it that has not yet found its way into either one of Ms Ernst's books, or anything Ms Meadows or Mr. Buck have published. This is a win/win blog for all of us.
If you're anticipating an announcement from me as to who I think Bill Long is, I'm afraid I'm going to disapoint you. The reason is quite simple. Kid Nickle and I are still arguing that one. I'm not about to do that while the jury is still out. Allow me to use an example. Consider the issue of hight.
1.) Dr McCullough found Bill Long, at death, in 1936 to be 5' 8" tall.
2.) The only definative height measurement of Harry Longabaugh was at his age 20 in 1887 when he was incarcerated at Sundance, Wyoming.
Continued ...........
Butch | 2:24 p.m. May 11, 2009
3.) It is common knowledge that we all "shrink" a bit as we age. The
"shrink with age factor" can be exacerbated by the type of life we
individually lead.
4.) Both Bill Long and Harry Longabaugh were acknowledged Bronc Stompers and made their living breaking horses. Constant pounding of the spinal column will exacerbate the spinal disk compression process, resulting in a greater shrink with age factor.
5.) Because we are only talking about a 1" variation in recorded height between a 20 year old and a 69 year old, both known horse breakers, it is perfectly reasonable that 5' 9" 20-year old Harry could be 69-year old Bill.
Kid Nickle and I argue based on fact and evidence. It keeps us young. That is why, at my age I look like a middle age Cary Grant. As you very well know, Kid Nickle bears a striking resemblance to a middle age Gary Cooper. People who make personal attacks on others seem to have a different result as they age.
4.) Both Bill Long and Harry Longabaugh were acknowledged Bronc Stompers and made their living breaking horses. Constant pounding of the spinal column will exacerbate the spinal disk compression process, resulting in a greater shrink with age factor.
5.) Because we are only talking about a 1" variation in recorded height between a 20 year old and a 69 year old, both known horse breakers, it is perfectly reasonable that 5' 9" 20-year old Harry could be 69-year old Bill.
Kid Nickle and I argue based on fact and evidence. It keeps us young. That is why, at my age I look like a middle age Cary Grant. As you very well know, Kid Nickle bears a striking resemblance to a middle age Gary Cooper. People who make personal attacks on others seem to have a different result as they age.
Butch | 4:56 p.m. May 11, 2009
Ghosttown Bob:
I genuinely appreciate you answering my question regarding the October 12, 1897 Gillespie letter. Oddly, I answered my own question exactly opposite of the way you answered it. I do not believe that Ms Ernst's published belief that the letter exonerates Harry from the Belle Fourche to be dispositive. Indeed, all Ms Ernst published statements prove is that As of 2009 Ms Ernst has arrived where every informed person has been at since October 12, 1897.
Ms Ernst's progress is truly remarkable. In 1992, when she authored Sundance, My Uncle, she was ignorant of the Gillespie letter. A mere 17 years later she has corrected the error of SMU.
Notwithstanding the foregoing, every unresolved issue that existed before the moment of Ms Ernst's enlightenment remains with us still. Consider:
1.) Gillespie did not name the incarcerated person.
2.) Montana Stock Growers Association Stock Detective, William D. "Billy" Smith, arrested Harry Longabaugh in 1887, and a man calling himself Frank Jones in 1897. When the same arresting officer arrests a man calling himself Longabaugh and then arrests a man calling himself Jones, if the two are the same person, shouldn't the officer say so?
I genuinely appreciate you answering my question regarding the October 12, 1897 Gillespie letter. Oddly, I answered my own question exactly opposite of the way you answered it. I do not believe that Ms Ernst's published belief that the letter exonerates Harry from the Belle Fourche to be dispositive. Indeed, all Ms Ernst published statements prove is that As of 2009 Ms Ernst has arrived where every informed person has been at since October 12, 1897.
Ms Ernst's progress is truly remarkable. In 1992, when she authored Sundance, My Uncle, she was ignorant of the Gillespie letter. A mere 17 years later she has corrected the error of SMU.
Notwithstanding the foregoing, every unresolved issue that existed before the moment of Ms Ernst's enlightenment remains with us still. Consider:
1.) Gillespie did not name the incarcerated person.
2.) Montana Stock Growers Association Stock Detective, William D. "Billy" Smith, arrested Harry Longabaugh in 1887, and a man calling himself Frank Jones in 1897. When the same arresting officer arrests a man calling himself Longabaugh and then arrests a man calling himself Jones, if the two are the same person, shouldn't the officer say so?
Butch | 5:15 p.m. May 11, 2009
(Continued) 3.) On October 13, 1897 the 8th Judicial Court in Butte County
indicted O'Day, Punteney, Thomas Jones, and Frank Jones, all of whom were
in custody. Indicted in absentia were George Currie and Harvey Logan. If W. D.
Smith knowingly allowed the court to indict Longabaugh under a false name, he
violated his obligation to the court.
4.) When Fraser and Hadsell interviewed Bob Lee in prison, Lee identified the man in custody, Tom Jones, as Harvey Logan, who had been indicted in absentia. He didn't directly name Longabaugh as anyone. He named "Frank Scramble" as Logan's indicted side kick.
If you have ever seen a competent defense lawyer at work then you will believe me when I tell you if you gave one this set of facts with Harry Longabaugh in the docket, the court would dismiss the charges with the court's apologies to Mr Longabaugh or Long as the case may be.
Before I make up my mind, I want to hear Jerry Nickle out.
4.) When Fraser and Hadsell interviewed Bob Lee in prison, Lee identified the man in custody, Tom Jones, as Harvey Logan, who had been indicted in absentia. He didn't directly name Longabaugh as anyone. He named "Frank Scramble" as Logan's indicted side kick.
If you have ever seen a competent defense lawyer at work then you will believe me when I tell you if you gave one this set of facts with Harry Longabaugh in the docket, the court would dismiss the charges with the court's apologies to Mr Longabaugh or Long as the case may be.
Before I make up my mind, I want to hear Jerry Nickle out.
Jerry Nickle | 12:16 a.m. May 12, 2009
Butch
Dora du Fran did not reveal anything that was not know already known, so what are you talking about? She appears to be a well-informed person and she is a mystery to me. GTB and I have posted what we know, so if there is a secret, why wont you post it? If you will not post it then at least tell us the reason.
Dora du Fran did not reveal anything that was not know already known, so what are you talking about? She appears to be a well-informed person and she is a mystery to me. GTB and I have posted what we know, so if there is a secret, why wont you post it? If you will not post it then at least tell us the reason.
R Leroy | 6:37 a.m. May 12, 2009
Butch, who did jail time for the Wilcox train robbery?
R L
R L
Jerry Nickle | 8:01 a.m. May 12, 2009
Butch
You say before you tell us whom Bill long really was you are going to hear me out. You and every one else have heard me out. I have a web site telling the story. The Deseret News published two different articles. My position is Bill Long was the Sundance Kid. Dan Bucks position is B&S were killed in Bolivia and he published his belief. We all know Bucks and mine so the time has come for you to do as you say you will and tell us yours,
You say before you tell us whom Bill long really was you are going to hear me out. You and every one else have heard me out. I have a web site telling the story. The Deseret News published two different articles. My position is Bill Long was the Sundance Kid. Dan Bucks position is B&S were killed in Bolivia and he published his belief. We all know Bucks and mine so the time has come for you to do as you say you will and tell us yours,
Not Butch | 8:15 a.m. May 12, 2009
R Leroy- Robert E. Lee, cousin of the Logan brothers, spent 6 years 9 months of
a ten year sentence for mail robbery. Convicted in May of 1900 and released on
February 13, 1907. Although he had part of the money he probably was not there
at the robbery.
R L | 10:10 a.m. May 12, 2009
Thank you Not Butch. That is about what I had been told.
R L
R L
Rod | 11:52 a.m. May 12, 2009
Hey Bybee....I also have relatives in Grafton cemetery....half of the
cemetery...What grave are you related to?
Butch | 5:17 p.m. May 12, 2009
Jerry:
Before I made up my mind on the October 12, 1897 Gillespie letter I wanted to hear you out on that one issue, among many others.
Ghosttown Bob wanted to know if I was going to make an announcement relative to whom I thought Bill Long was. I'm not ready to do that because all of the evidence isn't in. I'm still tracking my candidate. The Bill Long who married Luzernia had a history prior to that time. William Long is a common name. I'm working exactly as I always work, from the base documents. That includes the Federal Census of 1900, 1910, 1920, and 1930, and others.
Before I made up my mind on the October 12, 1897 Gillespie letter I wanted to hear you out on that one issue, among many others.
Ghosttown Bob wanted to know if I was going to make an announcement relative to whom I thought Bill Long was. I'm not ready to do that because all of the evidence isn't in. I'm still tracking my candidate. The Bill Long who married Luzernia had a history prior to that time. William Long is a common name. I'm working exactly as I always work, from the base documents. That includes the Federal Census of 1900, 1910, 1920, and 1930, and others.
Butch | 5:38 p.m. May 12, 2009
Jerry Nickle:
I've told you repeatedly I'm completely disinterested in the question of Bill Long being Harry Longabaugh. Nothing profitable will come of such discussions simply because, as a matter of logic, it is not possible for Bill to be Harry.
What I do find interesting, however, is how the evidence is handled, how different people looking at the same evidence can reach different conclusions as to what the evidence says, and how different people in different disciplines argue.
The William Long who married Luzernia is a different person than the Harry Longabaugh arrested by W. D. "Billy" Smith in 1887.Is the person arrested by W. D. "Billy" Smith in 1897 the same person as he arrested in 1887? The answer to that question is every bit as important as the question of why Mr. Buck failed to mention the 1887 Nichols/Newberry joint venture in Patagonia.
Ernst is no different. She places Harry square in the thick of things at Keeline, April 20/21, 1886. Shouldn't Ernst have discussed the Nichols/Hall combination? Why didn't she mention that W. D. "Billy" Smith was the arresting officer in both 1887 1n3 1897?
I've told you repeatedly I'm completely disinterested in the question of Bill Long being Harry Longabaugh. Nothing profitable will come of such discussions simply because, as a matter of logic, it is not possible for Bill to be Harry.
What I do find interesting, however, is how the evidence is handled, how different people looking at the same evidence can reach different conclusions as to what the evidence says, and how different people in different disciplines argue.
The William Long who married Luzernia is a different person than the Harry Longabaugh arrested by W. D. "Billy" Smith in 1887.Is the person arrested by W. D. "Billy" Smith in 1897 the same person as he arrested in 1887? The answer to that question is every bit as important as the question of why Mr. Buck failed to mention the 1887 Nichols/Newberry joint venture in Patagonia.
Ernst is no different. She places Harry square in the thick of things at Keeline, April 20/21, 1886. Shouldn't Ernst have discussed the Nichols/Hall combination? Why didn't she mention that W. D. "Billy" Smith was the arresting officer in both 1887 1n3 1897?
Butch | 6:08 p.m. May 12, 2009
R. L:
Not Butch gave you an excellent answer, Robert E. Lee. Lee's imprisonment is relative to any discussion of the Gillespie letter only because he names "Frank Scramble" as being in jail with Harvey Logan in October 1897 in Deadwood, accused of the Belle Fourche robbery. As NB said, Lee wasn't one of the robbers and when Fraser and Hadsell interviewed him both commented that he would have said anything to get released.
Was "Frank Scramble" Harry Longabaugh? Was the 1897 "Hobo Photograph" Harvey Logan as Lee maintained? Or, were Thomas and Frank Jones, really Harvey and Lonny Logan, with the "Hobo Photo" being Lonny, not Harvey? Edward Kirby, who published The Rise and Fall of the Sundance Kid in 1983, seems to have started the confusion on page 35. There, Kirby writes that Harvey Logan was listed as Harve Ray! Kirby goes on to name Harry Longabaugh as Frank Jones. Take it from there. This is how train wrecks happen.
Not Butch gave you an excellent answer, Robert E. Lee. Lee's imprisonment is relative to any discussion of the Gillespie letter only because he names "Frank Scramble" as being in jail with Harvey Logan in October 1897 in Deadwood, accused of the Belle Fourche robbery. As NB said, Lee wasn't one of the robbers and when Fraser and Hadsell interviewed him both commented that he would have said anything to get released.
Was "Frank Scramble" Harry Longabaugh? Was the 1897 "Hobo Photograph" Harvey Logan as Lee maintained? Or, were Thomas and Frank Jones, really Harvey and Lonny Logan, with the "Hobo Photo" being Lonny, not Harvey? Edward Kirby, who published The Rise and Fall of the Sundance Kid in 1983, seems to have started the confusion on page 35. There, Kirby writes that Harvey Logan was listed as Harve Ray! Kirby goes on to name Harry Longabaugh as Frank Jones. Take it from there. This is how train wrecks happen.
Dora du Fran | 7:39 p.m. May 12, 2009
Boys, Boys, Boys! Rather than sowing more seeds of confusion, why not sow a few
more wild oats?
As you all very well know I am the first person in history to franchaise Sporting Houses. I had three in 1897, one of which was used to case the bank in Belle Fourche and one of which staged the October 31, 1897, jail break, in Deadwood.
On the jail break, horses were held behind the jail. Five jail inmates escaped: Thomas Jones, Frank Jones, Tom O'Day, Walt Punteney, and ....
O'Day and Punteney weren't given horses to use for an escape and they were captured, on foot in Spearfish Canyon near Bridal Veil Falls.
The Jones Boys and ..... made a clean escape on the horses provided by "the two" David Gillespie wrote to his mother about.
The name of the 5th prisoner was William C. Moore. Governor Heber M. Wells believed Moore and the others hid out at Waterhole Flat after escaping. Moore was the surname of the man in SA who wrote to Tom Nichols about the BA Dentist, Newberry, in 1887. But William C. Moore was the name of a very important figure for us. Who?
As you all very well know I am the first person in history to franchaise Sporting Houses. I had three in 1897, one of which was used to case the bank in Belle Fourche and one of which staged the October 31, 1897, jail break, in Deadwood.
On the jail break, horses were held behind the jail. Five jail inmates escaped: Thomas Jones, Frank Jones, Tom O'Day, Walt Punteney, and ....
O'Day and Punteney weren't given horses to use for an escape and they were captured, on foot in Spearfish Canyon near Bridal Veil Falls.
The Jones Boys and ..... made a clean escape on the horses provided by "the two" David Gillespie wrote to his mother about.
The name of the 5th prisoner was William C. Moore. Governor Heber M. Wells believed Moore and the others hid out at Waterhole Flat after escaping. Moore was the surname of the man in SA who wrote to Tom Nichols about the BA Dentist, Newberry, in 1887. But William C. Moore was the name of a very important figure for us. Who?
Jerry Nickle | 7:58 a.m. May 13, 2009
Dura du Fran writes:
The name of the 5th prisoner was William C. Moore. Governor Heber M. Wells believed Moore and the others hid out at Waterhole Flat after escaping. Moore was the surname of the man in SA who wrote to Tom Nichols about the BA Dentist, Newberry, in 1887. But William C. Moore was the name of a very important figure for us. Who?
That is very significant. Can you give more details?
The name of the 5th prisoner was William C. Moore. Governor Heber M. Wells believed Moore and the others hid out at Waterhole Flat after escaping. Moore was the surname of the man in SA who wrote to Tom Nichols about the BA Dentist, Newberry, in 1887. But William C. Moore was the name of a very important figure for us. Who?
That is very significant. Can you give more details?
Dora du Fran | 8:52 a.m. May 13, 2009
Jerry Nickle:
You will want to read, carefully, the letter Governor Wells wrote to your illustrious ancestor, "C. W. Allred Esq., Sheriff, Price, Utah" dated April, 18th, 1898. The letter will be found in the Governor's papers in the Salt Lake City archieve in the Old Depot building. In the letter Governor Wells is asking Sheriff Allred to form a posse with Joe Bush, then at Loa, to attack the Wild Bunch. Governor Wells pinpointed the point of attack by saying the gang he wanted apprehended had just crossed at Dandy Crossing. He goes on to say:
"...the outlaws, among whom it is said there are Joe Walker, Jack Moore, a negro (sic)supposed to be Moore from Dakota, and perhaps the Jones brothers, also from Dakota...."
If you carefully look at the newspaper reports of the October 31, 1897, Deadwood jail break, you will see that William C. Moore was a "light skinned Negro" (sic) being held on a murder charge. Moore had been previously employed by the Swan ranch. The three men who escaped from Deadwood were Thomas Jones, Frank Jones, and William C. Moore.
Continued
You will want to read, carefully, the letter Governor Wells wrote to your illustrious ancestor, "C. W. Allred Esq., Sheriff, Price, Utah" dated April, 18th, 1898. The letter will be found in the Governor's papers in the Salt Lake City archieve in the Old Depot building. In the letter Governor Wells is asking Sheriff Allred to form a posse with Joe Bush, then at Loa, to attack the Wild Bunch. Governor Wells pinpointed the point of attack by saying the gang he wanted apprehended had just crossed at Dandy Crossing. He goes on to say:
"...the outlaws, among whom it is said there are Joe Walker, Jack Moore, a negro (sic)supposed to be Moore from Dakota, and perhaps the Jones brothers, also from Dakota...."
If you carefully look at the newspaper reports of the October 31, 1897, Deadwood jail break, you will see that William C. Moore was a "light skinned Negro" (sic) being held on a murder charge. Moore had been previously employed by the Swan ranch. The three men who escaped from Deadwood were Thomas Jones, Frank Jones, and William C. Moore.
Continued
Dora du Fran | 9:19 a.m. May 13, 2009
Governor Wells, in his letter, went on to link "Jack Moore" with the
"Buhr Ranch". Separate from the letter Governor Wells also authorized
a reward for Jack Moore: "$500 for Jack Moore: Height 5' 11";
spare made: 35 or 36 years of age; has one shoulder broken: dark sallow
complexion; looks like a Spaniard...."
Go back to 1887 and the letter from the outlaw in Argentina to Tom Nichols. The surname of the outlaw was Moore.
The third incidence of "Moore" was William C. Moore, the identical name of Dakota escapee Moore who rode into the Texas Panhandle in 1878 on, according to Charlie Siringo, "a worn out pony." That William C. Moore, a/k/a "Outlaw Bill Moore" claimed to have been a former range boss for the Swan ranch and who killed "the Negro(sic) coachman" at Swan.
The Swan operated on the same range at the same time as Tom Nichols was foreman at the Keeline.
My advice to you is to continue to look very carefully at "William C. Moore/Jack Moore" and Thomas and Frank Jones. Is 1887 Harry Longabaugh the 1897 Harry Longabaugh?
Continued ....
Go back to 1887 and the letter from the outlaw in Argentina to Tom Nichols. The surname of the outlaw was Moore.
The third incidence of "Moore" was William C. Moore, the identical name of Dakota escapee Moore who rode into the Texas Panhandle in 1878 on, according to Charlie Siringo, "a worn out pony." That William C. Moore, a/k/a "Outlaw Bill Moore" claimed to have been a former range boss for the Swan ranch and who killed "the Negro(sic) coachman" at Swan.
The Swan operated on the same range at the same time as Tom Nichols was foreman at the Keeline.
My advice to you is to continue to look very carefully at "William C. Moore/Jack Moore" and Thomas and Frank Jones. Is 1887 Harry Longabaugh the 1897 Harry Longabaugh?
Continued ....
Dora du Fran | 9:33 a.m. May 13, 2009
Is it possible that there is the 1887 Harry Longabaugh who went to SA, an 1897
person who appropriated the alias "Harry Longabaugh", and a third
person who was confused with Harry Longabaugh?
If there are three different William C. Moores, why can't there be three different Harry Longabaughs?
Ben "Tall Texan" Kilpatrick was arrested under the name of "Harry Longabaugh". According to Ms Ernst's new book, Kilpatrick had the name "Harry Longabaugh" written inside one of his possessions at the time of his arrest. Was Kilpatrick the Harry Longabaugh of the 1901 Pinkerton report placing him in Price, Utah, while another Harry Longabaugh is in SA?
Perhaps both you and Butch are correct. Butch said that Bill Long is not the 1887 Harry. You maintain that Bill Long is Harry Longabaugh. If there are multiple Harry Longabaughs, could you both be right?
Butch called me on a mistake. He was quite right. I was first to announce Butch has a book in the works. I shouldn't have done that.
If there are three different William C. Moores, why can't there be three different Harry Longabaughs?
Ben "Tall Texan" Kilpatrick was arrested under the name of "Harry Longabaugh". According to Ms Ernst's new book, Kilpatrick had the name "Harry Longabaugh" written inside one of his possessions at the time of his arrest. Was Kilpatrick the Harry Longabaugh of the 1901 Pinkerton report placing him in Price, Utah, while another Harry Longabaugh is in SA?
Perhaps both you and Butch are correct. Butch said that Bill Long is not the 1887 Harry. You maintain that Bill Long is Harry Longabaugh. If there are multiple Harry Longabaughs, could you both be right?
Butch called me on a mistake. He was quite right. I was first to announce Butch has a book in the works. I shouldn't have done that.
Kid Montana | 2:11 p.m. May 13, 2009
Dora du Fran:
I think Governor Wells calling the Jones boys "brothers" is good evidence that they are Harvey and Lonny Logan, who were in fact brothers, and not Harvey Logan and Harry Longabaugh, who were not related. That would mean that the guys locked up in jail didn't include Longabaugh. It also means that the Gillespie letter has no impact on Bill Long being one of the Longabaughs. He could have been in Fremont when the bank got robbed, and still be one of the Longabaughs.
What do you think?
I think Governor Wells calling the Jones boys "brothers" is good evidence that they are Harvey and Lonny Logan, who were in fact brothers, and not Harvey Logan and Harry Longabaugh, who were not related. That would mean that the guys locked up in jail didn't include Longabaugh. It also means that the Gillespie letter has no impact on Bill Long being one of the Longabaughs. He could have been in Fremont when the bank got robbed, and still be one of the Longabaughs.
What do you think?
Not Butch | 2:31 p.m. May 13, 2009
Butch- Your comment yesterday evening concerning the possibility of the photo
of Harve Logan (UP RR photo taken after arrest in Montana) being Loney Logan and
possibly the larger Jones being Harvey Logan is a little absurb. Whether or not
you were serious I don't know but the description of the larger Jones
brother was not indicative of either Harve or Loney Logan. The reason that
Harve Ray comes into play is because he was arrested in Dakota in 1895 and
placed in jail in Natrona Co., Wyoming for stealing 50 head of neat cattle from
J.L. McCoy along with Lew Henderson. Ray jumped bail and was never heard from
again but was a suspect in the Belle Fourche robbery because of this. Ray was
not Harve Logan as his description does not match that of Harve! You, Sir,
might have started a train wreck by you statement!
Butch | 3:57 p.m. May 13, 2009
Not Butch:
We're talking about two different photos. Larry Pointer, so far as I know, was first to dub the Deadwood, South Dakota, photo of a Logan taken at the Locke Photography Studio the "Hobo Photo". When Bob Lee was interviewed in prison he said that the Locke Photo was a photo of Harve Logan. I don't believe the UP RR photo is generally known as the Logan "Hobo" Photo. The UP RR photo is not a photo of a single person. The Locke photo is of a single person.
As noted, correctly, Kirby on page 35 claims that Harvey Logan was "listed" as Harve Rae. For that reason, Harvey Logan was indicted in absentia. If the Locke Photo is of Harvey Logan as Lee claims, then Harvey Logan was indicted as Thomas Jones and present in court when he heard himself indicted under his correct name in absentia.
Harve Rae was a named suspect in the Belle Fourche Robbery because the four robbers did not wear masks, and Harve, a local to Belle Fourche and Sundance, was identified.
Continued.........
We're talking about two different photos. Larry Pointer, so far as I know, was first to dub the Deadwood, South Dakota, photo of a Logan taken at the Locke Photography Studio the "Hobo Photo". When Bob Lee was interviewed in prison he said that the Locke Photo was a photo of Harve Logan. I don't believe the UP RR photo is generally known as the Logan "Hobo" Photo. The UP RR photo is not a photo of a single person. The Locke photo is of a single person.
As noted, correctly, Kirby on page 35 claims that Harvey Logan was "listed" as Harve Rae. For that reason, Harvey Logan was indicted in absentia. If the Locke Photo is of Harvey Logan as Lee claims, then Harvey Logan was indicted as Thomas Jones and present in court when he heard himself indicted under his correct name in absentia.
Harve Rae was a named suspect in the Belle Fourche Robbery because the four robbers did not wear masks, and Harve, a local to Belle Fourche and Sundance, was identified.
Continued.........
Butch | 4:11 p.m. May 13, 2009
Frank Murray, reponding to a letter from Marshall Hadsell, said that Harve Rae
and George "Flatnose" Currie had attended school together at Sundance.
Hadsell wrote to the Pinkertons about Rae because Rae became a prime suspect in
the Wilcox robbery after Tom Horn "questioned" witnesses. Pointer
claims Rae was wounded in the Wilcox Robbers shootout that resulted in the death
of Sheriff Josiah Hazen. On the run, the escaping robbers sheltered at the Muddy
Creek Road Ranch where Rae died of his wounds and was buried above the cave at
the Roadranch. So said Pointer.
Never-the-less, Not Butch, you are quite right that I might have started another train wreck. I didn't specify which presumed Logan photo I was speaking about and I didn't elaborate about what Kirby said about Harve Logan "listed" as Harve Rae. I'm guilty as charged. I'll do my best to mend my ways.
Thanks for your comment.
Never-the-less, Not Butch, you are quite right that I might have started another train wreck. I didn't specify which presumed Logan photo I was speaking about and I didn't elaborate about what Kirby said about Harve Logan "listed" as Harve Rae. I'm guilty as charged. I'll do my best to mend my ways.
Thanks for your comment.
Butch | 4:21 p.m. May 13, 2009
Not Butch:
I forgot to mention that Harve Rae was the cousin of Nick Rae who died at the side of Nate Champion during the Johnson County Invasion. There is an unconfirmed report floating around that both Nick and Harve are enumerated on an early census in the Ten Sleep area. Yep. I think "train wreck" is an accurate description.
I forgot to mention that Harve Rae was the cousin of Nick Rae who died at the side of Nate Champion during the Johnson County Invasion. There is an unconfirmed report floating around that both Nick and Harve are enumerated on an early census in the Ten Sleep area. Yep. I think "train wreck" is an accurate description.
R L | 7:26 p.m. May 13, 2009
Are we seeing the birth of a new, genuine foremost authority(ies)? Very
interesting, informative, without putting others down. Bravo to all 99.9% of
you.
R L
R L
Not Butch | 9:57 a.m. May 14, 2009
Butch- I had long suspected that Harve Rae was related to Nick Rae. Is there
any proof of the fact they were cousins. Very little is known about either as
far as I know. Nick was supposedly working for Billy Irvine and was hurt.
Irvine ran him off, which was unusual back then.
Ghosttown Bob | 10:25 a.m. May 14, 2009
Some Observations:
Butch Mentions that Gillespie did not name the incarcerated person in his Oct 12, 1897 letter, that is correct. However the Rawlins Journal/People's Voice article of Oct. 10, 1897 does specifically mention "Harry Alonzo" as one who was arrested as one of the Belle Fourche robbers. It also mentions that Harry Alonzo was working for Al Reader at the time of the robbery, and that he had written and requested for some friends to come and identify him. It mentions that J. Galloway and E. Lahey were the ones who went to identify him, but that the authorities did not let them make the identification as the rewards had already been paid. This is pretty clear evidence that it was "Harry Alonzo" that was arrested under the name of Frank Jones. This also confirms the Gillespie letter. As cited before, many in the Little Snake River area later said that the person they knew as Harry Alonzo was the same person as Harry Longabaugh.
Butch Mentions that Gillespie did not name the incarcerated person in his Oct 12, 1897 letter, that is correct. However the Rawlins Journal/People's Voice article of Oct. 10, 1897 does specifically mention "Harry Alonzo" as one who was arrested as one of the Belle Fourche robbers. It also mentions that Harry Alonzo was working for Al Reader at the time of the robbery, and that he had written and requested for some friends to come and identify him. It mentions that J. Galloway and E. Lahey were the ones who went to identify him, but that the authorities did not let them make the identification as the rewards had already been paid. This is pretty clear evidence that it was "Harry Alonzo" that was arrested under the name of Frank Jones. This also confirms the Gillespie letter. As cited before, many in the Little Snake River area later said that the person they knew as Harry Alonzo was the same person as Harry Longabaugh.
Ghosttown Bob | 10:42 a.m. May 14, 2009
(continued)
As has already been mentioned before, miss-identification of the Wild Bunch was commonplace. The Ben Kilpatrick affair in St. Louis in Nov 1901 after the Wagner train robbery is a good example. Butch Cassidy was declared dead after the gun-battle in the aftermath of the Castle Gate Robbery, A. G. Francis, mistook Harry Longabaugh (Sundance Kid) for Harvey Logan (Kid Curry) in 1908 at the time of the San Vicente shooting. These are just a few examples.
As for the 1897 Harry Longabaugh, If Harry Alonzo and Harry Longabaugh were the same person, then Harry Longabaugh could not have been the same as William Henry Long in Fremont at the same time.
Lastly, having read through the previous entries here, I still see no evidence, other than speculation that the Harry Longabaugh of 1887 was any different than the Harry Longabaugh of 1897. This whole SA thing in 1887 is still all very nebulous and ephemeral.
As has already been mentioned before, miss-identification of the Wild Bunch was commonplace. The Ben Kilpatrick affair in St. Louis in Nov 1901 after the Wagner train robbery is a good example. Butch Cassidy was declared dead after the gun-battle in the aftermath of the Castle Gate Robbery, A. G. Francis, mistook Harry Longabaugh (Sundance Kid) for Harvey Logan (Kid Curry) in 1908 at the time of the San Vicente shooting. These are just a few examples.
As for the 1897 Harry Longabaugh, If Harry Alonzo and Harry Longabaugh were the same person, then Harry Longabaugh could not have been the same as William Henry Long in Fremont at the same time.
Lastly, having read through the previous entries here, I still see no evidence, other than speculation that the Harry Longabaugh of 1887 was any different than the Harry Longabaugh of 1897. This whole SA thing in 1887 is still all very nebulous and ephemeral.
Butch | 11:54 a.m. May 14, 2009
Ghosttown Bob:
I have no disagreement with anything you said. If you are satisfied that all of the evidence fairly examined leads to the conclusion beyond a reasonable
doubt that there is one and only one person who is Harry Longabaugh/Harry Alonzo/Frank Jones/ Frank Scramble then by all means Bill Long can not possibly be Harry Longabaugh et al.
That being the case, what is your opinion of William D. "Billy" Smith's behavior of allowing Harry Longabaugh to be indicted for the Belle Fourche Bank robbery under the false name of Frank Jones? I'll keep in mind that Billy Smith played a role in Joe LeFors' frame up of Tom Horn.
Second, I'd like to have your thoughts on why Thomas and Frank Jones, along with William C. Smith were provided escape horses to allow them to make it to Dandy Crossing, while Walt Punteney and Tom O'Day were not provided horses and were caught, on foot, at Bridal Veil Falls.
Finally, is it your reccomendation that we not make further inquiry into the Keeline or 1887 on the grounds that it would be a waste of time?
I have no disagreement with anything you said. If you are satisfied that all of the evidence fairly examined leads to the conclusion beyond a reasonable
doubt that there is one and only one person who is Harry Longabaugh/Harry Alonzo/Frank Jones/ Frank Scramble then by all means Bill Long can not possibly be Harry Longabaugh et al.
That being the case, what is your opinion of William D. "Billy" Smith's behavior of allowing Harry Longabaugh to be indicted for the Belle Fourche Bank robbery under the false name of Frank Jones? I'll keep in mind that Billy Smith played a role in Joe LeFors' frame up of Tom Horn.
Second, I'd like to have your thoughts on why Thomas and Frank Jones, along with William C. Smith were provided escape horses to allow them to make it to Dandy Crossing, while Walt Punteney and Tom O'Day were not provided horses and were caught, on foot, at Bridal Veil Falls.
Finally, is it your reccomendation that we not make further inquiry into the Keeline or 1887 on the grounds that it would be a waste of time?
Butch | 12:36 p.m. May 14, 2009
Not Butch:
I suppose it depends on one's definition of "proof". I did some "boots on the ground" work on the Rae boys. Here's what I have:
1.) Rueben H. "Nick" Rae was born in 1861, Missouri, Father: "J. H. Rae"; Mother "L. B. Rae". See the 1880 Federal Census for Miami, Saline County, Missouri. Nick, of course died April 9, 1892 at KC. I haven't found him for certain on the 1870 Census. Confusion might be in the spelling of the surname "Rae" as opposed to "Ray". I got the lead Rueben H. Rae, birthplace Missouri, from an old-timer at Gillette. Both leads --name and birthplace -- coincide with the Wyoming Tales and Trails website, see "Johnson County War/Invasion".
2.) Harvey G. Rae, born 1858, Missouri, Father: Matthias Rae; Mother: Sarah Rae. I worked backward from Pinkerton Assistant Superintendant Frank Murray's letter to U. S. Marshall Frank Hadsell, dated June 7, 1900. There is a fair amount of discussion regarding the Horn letter to Fraser of January 15, 1900. Because of the Horn letter, Murray and Hadsell met at Cheyenne on June, 6, 1900.
Continued............
I suppose it depends on one's definition of "proof". I did some "boots on the ground" work on the Rae boys. Here's what I have:
1.) Rueben H. "Nick" Rae was born in 1861, Missouri, Father: "J. H. Rae"; Mother "L. B. Rae". See the 1880 Federal Census for Miami, Saline County, Missouri. Nick, of course died April 9, 1892 at KC. I haven't found him for certain on the 1870 Census. Confusion might be in the spelling of the surname "Rae" as opposed to "Ray". I got the lead Rueben H. Rae, birthplace Missouri, from an old-timer at Gillette. Both leads --name and birthplace -- coincide with the Wyoming Tales and Trails website, see "Johnson County War/Invasion".
2.) Harvey G. Rae, born 1858, Missouri, Father: Matthias Rae; Mother: Sarah Rae. I worked backward from Pinkerton Assistant Superintendant Frank Murray's letter to U. S. Marshall Frank Hadsell, dated June 7, 1900. There is a fair amount of discussion regarding the Horn letter to Fraser of January 15, 1900. Because of the Horn letter, Murray and Hadsell met at Cheyenne on June, 6, 1900.
Continued............
Butch | 1:16 p.m. May 14, 2009
As soon as Murray got back to his Denver office he wrote to Hadsell and, in
part, said: "There is a Harve Ray (sic), who would now be a man about 30.
He went to school with George Curry (sic)and was raised at Sundance."
Hadsell, of course, knew that Currie, a Canadian, landed first in Nebraska and
didn't show up in Wyoming until sometime in 1887-1890, well past school
age. Working from the Reward poster for Belle Fourche giving "Harve
Ray"'s age as 42, I came up with Harvey G. Rae, born 1858 in Missouri.
The 1870 Federal Census lists Harvey Ray at Flat Creek, Pettis County, Missouri.
Pettis county neighbors Saline County.
Finally, I would direct you to Tom Horn's letter of January 15, 1900 to E. C. Harris. Both the Murray and Horn letters are in the Frank Hadsell files on microfiche at the Wyoming Cultural Resources Center in Cheyenne.
If you have a copy of Pointer just follow the index, paying particular attention to the Wilcox escape route.
I can't think of anything else right at the moment. If I do, I'll let you know right away.
Finally, I would direct you to Tom Horn's letter of January 15, 1900 to E. C. Harris. Both the Murray and Horn letters are in the Frank Hadsell files on microfiche at the Wyoming Cultural Resources Center in Cheyenne.
If you have a copy of Pointer just follow the index, paying particular attention to the Wilcox escape route.
I can't think of anything else right at the moment. If I do, I'll let you know right away.
Anonymous | 1:31 p.m. May 14, 2009
neb⋅u⋅lous
1. hazy, vague, indistinct, or confused: a nebulous recollection of the meeting; a nebulous distinction between pride and conceit.
2. cloudy or cloudlike.
3. of or resembling a nebula or nebulae; nebular.
ephemeral
1 : lasting one day only 2 : lasting a very short time
1. hazy, vague, indistinct, or confused: a nebulous recollection of the meeting; a nebulous distinction between pride and conceit.
2. cloudy or cloudlike.
3. of or resembling a nebula or nebulae; nebular.
ephemeral
1 : lasting one day only 2 : lasting a very short time
Butch | 2:02 p.m. May 14, 2009
R. L.:
I'm not sure if you intended to include me in the other 99.9 Foremost Authorities, but if you did, well, I'm afraid I'll have to decline. I really don't want the mantle of Foremost Authority draped on me. Foremost Authorities have gravitas and with the title and gravitas people expect Foremost Authorities to be right.
If a Foremost Authority is wrong about something he is expected to defend his error to the death because Foremost Authorities are always right and never wrong. Defending the indefensible puts a lot of stress on a guy, and quite frankly, I don't believe I could handle the pressure of being a Foremost Authority.
My goal is to perform as well as a stopped clock, which, of course, is right twice a day. When I have an unusually good day I'm right once that day. I never count the number of times I am wrong each day because I don't want to become depressed.
On the other hand, if you have the position of Foremost Authority on Lutefisk, and Lefsa with Lingonberries, then, sir, we really need to discuss the matter further.
I'm not sure if you intended to include me in the other 99.9 Foremost Authorities, but if you did, well, I'm afraid I'll have to decline. I really don't want the mantle of Foremost Authority draped on me. Foremost Authorities have gravitas and with the title and gravitas people expect Foremost Authorities to be right.
If a Foremost Authority is wrong about something he is expected to defend his error to the death because Foremost Authorities are always right and never wrong. Defending the indefensible puts a lot of stress on a guy, and quite frankly, I don't believe I could handle the pressure of being a Foremost Authority.
My goal is to perform as well as a stopped clock, which, of course, is right twice a day. When I have an unusually good day I'm right once that day. I never count the number of times I am wrong each day because I don't want to become depressed.
On the other hand, if you have the position of Foremost Authority on Lutefisk, and Lefsa with Lingonberries, then, sir, we really need to discuss the matter further.
Anonymous | 2:11 p.m. May 14, 2009
1. hazy, vague, indistinct, or confused: a nebulous recollection of the meeting;
a nebulous distinction between pride and conceit.
2. cloudy or cloudlike.
How did we get from Bill and Harry to Nancy Pelosi?
2. cloudy or cloudlike.
How did we get from Bill and Harry to Nancy Pelosi?
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(1)Rejoin Bill Long's remains in his grave with the highest regard for the sensibilities of his family.
(2) Collect DNA samples for the purpose of attempting to discover possible relatives, only one of which group might be the Longabaugh line.
(3) Materially advance the understanding of the American people regarding their history by providing each of us with a highly detailed analysis of historic documents, and providing each of us with the actual documents, word for word.
Jerry Nickle has a lot to do. The man never once asked for money or time from any one of us. There are no tax dollars involved in his work. Jerry, his family, and his friends, have provided the money, time, and sacrifice for the benefit of the Longs, Longabaughs, and the American people. The most stiking feature is that while Ms Ernst has twice remarked on the similar characteristics between the man who claimed to be the Sundance Kid's son, she has done abolutely nothing to investigate the matter. (Continued)