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Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?

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Anonymous | 8:56 a.m. April 21, 2009

"Kid " seems to have more going for him than Mr. Buck.

Mr. Curious, are you insulting the Kid, or trying to compliment him? Did you notice the Kid does not rely on reported information, nor does he insult those that may not agree with him. Big improvement.

Keep up the good work Kid.

The Kid does seem to lack the ability to direct us to "items" his wife has written. (Different and nice.) One other thought, he isn't afraid to answer "all" questions.

Kid | 9:11 a.m. April 21, 2009

TM
Youll be happy to know that I have it all in writing. But its of little use to factual history. I can document names, places, dates, and events through Civil War pension files, legal documents etc. As it has been repeated several times on this blod, the Pinkerton files, newspaper articles and Seringo are unreliable sources. Unfortunately, that puts my story in the hearsay, double hearsay, triple hearsay category. Its a fascinating story, but its just a story.
However, I can and have revealed bits and pieces of the story, along with research material, that has and will benefit others in their research. I have convinced at least a couple of fellows, that I know at least a little bit about the subject. Although, one fellow still disagrees with me, about Grubbed the Left Ear. Following my grandfathers advice, I have not revealed everything I know, yet.

Anonymous | 10:10 a.m. April 21, 2009

"Following my grandfathers advice, I have not revealed everything I know, yet."---From the Kid.

And then there are those that try and "reveal" more than they really know. Almost seems like, if you know what you are talking about, you don't have to retell it over and over. Sooner or later, folks will figure it out for themselves. Right, Mr. Buck?

Comments continue below

Horse Creek Cowby | 10:44 a.m. April 21, 2009

Kid,

Even hearsay, double hearsay, and triple hearsay is useful in giving leads to follow. That's why I suggested that the leads in Baggs bore following.
Right now, I am interested in the connection between Tap Duncan and the Kilpatricks and the Sheffields. As I understand it, Tap was married to Ben's niece; Boone was married to Truda Sheffield; and in 1913 Truda's brother Dan killed Felix Kilpatrick. The town of Sheffield, Texas is named after Will Sheffield allegedly Truda's father. Additionally there was a Jim Sheffield and a Gus Sheffield who raised horses. What I am looking for is a connection to Martin Sheffield and to the Perry's and Crocket's from Ozona, Texas. Those connections, if they exist, may explain a missing link involving the so-called "Wild Bunch."

Anonymous | 10:47 a.m. April 21, 2009

It was meant as a definite compliment to KID- He is very good at saying what he believes and puts it way more plainly than some/most of the others

TM | 11:24 a.m. April 21, 2009

You guys crack me up! You have to admit this is a great Blog!

Kid | 8:15 a.m. April 25, 2009

I never could make the Sheffield connection to the Wild Bunch. Bige Duncan and Jim Sheffield were mentioned in one article.

George Taplin Duncan was married to Ollie Ann Binnion, daughter of Robert G. Binnion and Amanda C. Brown.
Abijah Elam {A. E. Bige} Duncan, older brother of Tap Duncan, was married to Nancy B. Ketchum, daughter of Green Berry Ketchum and Temperance Katherine Wydick.
Truda Eugenia Sheffield, daughter of William Franklin Sheffield and Virginia Judson Hopkins, was married to Daniel Boone Kilpatrick, son of George W. Kilpatrick and Mary G. Davis.

Kid | 9:27 a.m. April 25, 2009

From THE LAST GASP OF THE WILD BUNCH
Ben Kilpatrick at Baxter's Curve,
March 13, 1912
C.F. Eckhardt
There were others involved and suspicion centered around Ben's brother Felix Kilpatrick and Outlaw Dan Sheffield, brother to Ben's sister in-law (Boone's wife , Truda Sheffield).

William Frank Sheffield Jr. May 24, 1876, Brown County, Texas, Feb. 18, 1953, Sanderson, Terrell County, Texas.
Daniel Pinkney Sheffield, Oct. 22, 1877, Brown County,Texas, July 29, 1938, Van Horn, Culberson County, Texas.

Odessa American, The
Wednesday, December 10, 1958 Odessa, Texas
Last Rites Set For Iraan Man
IRAAN (Staff) Graveside rites for Daniel Boone Kilpatrick, 87, former Iraan constable who died in General Hospital here Tuesday, were to be held at 4 p. m. Wednesday in Iraan Cemetery under direction of Moore Funeral
Home of McCamey. A resident of Pecos for over 60 years, Kilpatrick had served as a constable at Iraan for many
years. Survivors include the widow; three sons, Wright Kilpatrick of Barnhart, Buster Kilpatrick of the U. S. Air Force in Turkey and Billy Kilpatrick of Mapleton, Ore.; a sister, Alice Kilpatrick of Christoval; and three grandchildren.

Anonymous | 10:48 a.m. April 27, 2009

GHOST HI ?
TEXAS PMAM??

Horse Creek Cowboy | 11:32 a.m. April 27, 2009

Kid,

Thanks. Will continue to work on Perry connection.

Kid | 9:30 a.m. April 28, 2009

HCC
If you find your Perry up on the continental divide, in August 1900, might be the same Perry Im looking for, last seen headed for Colorado with $20 gold pieces. Unknown if Perry, first name or last.

Ghosttown Bob | 10:07 a.m. April 28, 2009

Jerry: RE: your 2:08 p.m. April 12, 2009 comment about, among other things, the letter from Tiffany & Co. concerning the gold watch, purchased by Parker for Longabaugh and his wife. You have asked Buck to produce the letter. Maybe what you ought to do is your own research. Why don't you check Tiffany's website for the address and number to contact them. They have an archive service that will check their records and confirm the purchase. While your at it, ask for information on the watch that Longabaugh bought on June 25, 1902 too. There are ways to confirm others research, ask Anonymous, I sent her running all over the place looking for stuff.

Anonymous | 6:45 a.m. April 29, 2009

"You have asked Buck to produce the letter. Maybe what you ought to do is your own research." Mr. GBob suggests the above.

Sure that might work. But what is the hang-up with Mr. Buck sharing a letter showing proof of a claim he makes? What in the world is the harm in that? Of course, if he doesn't have the document, it might be a little harder to produce. This kind gesture by Mr. Buck, would save Jerry a lot of time, especially, if what he is looking for, doesn't exist. Just a suggestion, like Gbob's.

Just Passing Thru | 4:57 p.m. April 29, 2009

Perhaps Mr. Buck would prefer showing the letter he "reportedly" wrote to Lula Parker Betenson's co-author, asking if Mrs. Flack thought Mrs. Betenson was telling, shall we say, the truth.

Daniel Buck | 6:17 a.m. April 30, 2009

Just Passing Through,

At a 2006 history confab in Rock Springs, WY, Bob Jayne -- who lurks in these latitudes -- announced polemically that he had in his hand a letter I had written to Dora Flack in which I had tried to get her to say Lula Parker Betenson had lied, etc.

I invited Jayne to read said letter to the audience members so the they could judge for themselves. Jayne refused. He fillibustered, tried to change the subject, sputtered. Fell silent.

In my letter, I had asked Flack if, as Betenson's co-author, she had an opinion about the controversy among Parker descendants over Butch Cassidy's fate. Flack replied that she didn't doubt Betenson's veracity: "Never would I have attempted the task if I hadn't believed Lulas story."

I used that quote in our 1998 WOLA Journal article, "Did Butch Cassidy Return? His Family Can't Decide," which you can find online.

Dan

AC | 11:30 a.m. April 30, 2009

I invited Jayne to read said letter to the audience members so the they could judge for themselves. Jayne refused. He fillibustered, tried to change the subject, sputtered. Fell silent.

Not being there, I can relate only what others (reportedly) said occurred. Knowing Mr. Jayne retired some time ago from dealing with this (I'm sure he will be honored at your kind words) I feel the other side needs presented.

When asked about the letter, you replied, That is what we do. It proved what? Why in the world even write such a thing? Apparently Jayne believed it spoke for itself and saw no need to waste others time by reading such a sad tactic. He fell silent after asking, why you had said the derogatory comment about Lulas mind. Comments you and Mrs. Buck immediately denied. (Later, your mind cleared and you admitted not only saying, but writing those sad, insulting words.) My guess, Jayne did not know how to deal with one, who did not speak the truth.

Mr. Buck has the right to think what he does is acceptable. Others and I believe otherwise.
AC

Bob Jayne | 1:00 p.m. April 30, 2009

Dear Mr. Buck:
Since you have chosen this method of giving me credit and humbling me with your praise, I will return the favor. First, my thanks to A C. As he mentioned I have tried to stay away from this. If memory serves, I think my last comment was Feb. 27, regarding the new book by Harvey Murdock. (I hope that is correct) And it is an excellent book. (Although I dont think Mr. Murdock buys your story)
Mr. Buck you seem to think I am the only one who has seen the letter. Yes, when I first met Mrs. Flack, she gave me copies of your letter and her reply. (Ever wonder why?) A Parker family member was also there. Those letters have been seen (and thought very poorly of) by many.
The truth of what happened in Rock Springs and your tactics are well known, as we both know.
So, please allow me to stay out of this. One little thing, as a past master at the art, I was surprised at your spelling of filibuster.

Bob Jayne

Daniel Buck | 1:50 p.m. April 30, 2009

AC,

That is the methodology: Do research. Trawl archives. Read historic newspapers. Query people with a knowledge of the subject under inquiry.

Dora Flack kindly gave me her answers, and I published them in the article. Only an obscurant would object to that.

Dan

AC | 2:51 p.m. April 30, 2009

"Dora Flack kindly gave me her answers, and I published them in the article. Only an obscurant would object to that." Mr. Buck says------

Mr. Buck, you believe what ever you want, even some of what you write. If I am standing in the way of your progress, oh my goodness. By the way did you ever speak to Mrs. Flack face to face, so you could "see" how she felt about your "query"? She is a lady, Mr. Buck, she is also very polite. I am sure you have at least heard of these words? Right?

Along with your wonderful "words", I presume you are (at least in your mind) moving forward. When you get a moment, it might pay you to check what direction you are actually going. Just a friendly tip.

All my best to your future success Daniel.

Art

Daniel Buck | 4:23 p.m. April 30, 2009

AC,

Dora Flack and I spoke by telephone, after our exchange of letters. She was quite candid and forthcoming. She told me that in her opinion, the "returned" Butch Cassidy was William T. Phillips. "I honestly believe he died as William Phillips," she told me. She said that although she had "no proof," it was based on everything Lula Parker Betenson had said, and that in her view Betenson did not want the Phillips fact made public.

As we know, Betenson said Butch died in the same year and in the same part of the country as William T. Phillips, and occasionally used the alias Phillips, but was not William T. Phillips.

No wonder the controversy persists.

Dan

A Lady | 5:06 p.m. April 30, 2009

If I may state my opinion, Mr. Buck, in your book, what you did may be explained as a "query". Sir, in mine, it is nothing more than an insult.

Mr. Buck, you can attempt to explain (excuse) it with all the eloquence you want. It is still insulting, when you ask an individual, if they feel their co-author is telling the truth. Would you have been more pleased if Mrs. Flack had answered, I only co-author books with those that don't tell the truth.

If you truly believe such a "query" is appropriate, you are indeed a sad, little man.

Almost still a Lady

Disintrested Observer | 7:17 a.m. May 1, 2009

It has been a while since I have been on this board, and it looks again that the subject has turned to it's favorite topic, Dan Buck and his supposed "insult" of Lula Betensen - And everyone else taking offense to it. I still have not seen the exact quote that is so offensive. If Bob Jayne would "produce" the quote like the rest seem to be wanting Buck to do with the Tiffany watch thing, then maybe everyone can see just how insulting it was.

There seems to be two sides to this. Buck seems to think he made a valid inquiry to Flack about her opinion. Others seem to think that he was insulting Betensen.

Well, "lets see the goods" so we can decide for ourselves, or is this just about having your feelings hurt and then whining about it???

Ghosttown Bob | 8:58 a.m. May 1, 2009

Concerning the Gold Watch and letter. Dan Buck has provided the following: The date of the letter from Tiffany's, the date of the watch purchase, who purchased it, their address, the serial number of the watch, and the price. What else do you want? short of posting a photocopy of said letter on the board (which can't be done), he has included just about everything in the letter. Even if he were able to post a photocopy of the said letter, someone could say that it had been "photo-shopped."

To really confirm that the letter is not a "fake" which Jerry has claimed, you need to write Tiffany & Co. and ask. As I mentioned before, they have an archive service which will gladly forward any and all information to you.

good luck

Anonymous | 11:23 a.m. May 1, 2009

For being "disintrested" you do seem to have some misguided interest. It might help your presentation if you knew what your were talking about.

"Dan Buck and his "supposed" insult of Lula Betensen" --- Comes from Buck stating, "Mrs. Betenson's mind had possibly corroded with age." What part of that don't you understand?

"Buck seems to think he made a valid inquiry to Flack about her opinion. Others seem to think that he was insulting Betensen."

You again "seem" to miss the point. Insulting Mrs. Betenson has been addressed above. Buck writing Mrs. Flack, asking if she thought Lula was telling the truth, was an insult to Mrs. Flack. (Do you really think Mrs. Flack would be part of an effort that was knowingly not true?) Have you met Mrs. Flack? If you don't understand this, it might be a good idea for you to stay--"disinterested".

Daniel Buck | 12:56 p.m. May 1, 2009

Anonymous,

Below is the full quote, from the Q&A in the 2002 True West (online on our website). Memory does fade with age, but if its any comfort to you, I think Lula made up the return story.

Dan

===
Q: How come Butch's sister Lula Parker Betenson said he came home in 1925 if he didn't?

A: At the time Lula made her claim, many people believed that Butch had returned, so she may have seen no harm in simply inventing a visit to trump Hollywood and write a book with a better story of how Butch, "the sainted abbot of the world's largest gang of outlaws" (as she once described him), defeated death. A more charitable explanation is that age had corroded her memory -- that is, some relative had visited the family's home in Circleville, and decades later that person became Butch in her mind. (Memories are memories of a memory, as the neuroscientists like to say.) In any case, most of Butch's immediate kin, including his father and other siblings, said he never returned.
===

Daniel Buck | 1:24 p.m. May 1, 2009

Disinterested Observer,

The quarrel with my 1998 letter to Dora Flack is not with the content, but that I inquired at all. There are those -- obscurants -- who believe that once a question is settled in their mind, further inquiry by others is out-of-bounds, or as they like to put it "insulting."

My letter to Flack summarized the mystery about whether he had died in South America or returned to the US, and noted while Lula's view was "quite clear," that we had "learned of other opinions from other members of the Parker family expressing doubts about Lula's version." Nothing controversial there. It's true.

The letter closed, "I wondered if you, as someone who was intimately involved with the writing of the book, had an opinion on the matter."

Flack replied with a spirited defense of the books veracity. We quoted from her letter in our article. See "Did Butch Cassidy Return? His Family Can't Decide."

Dan

Kid Lutefisk | 3:08 p.m. May 1, 2009

I'm delighted to find my old pals pounding the snot out of Dan Buck and his Pennsylvania Housewife side-kick, Donna Ernst. Question:
(1) The headstone for Evinda Ann Long a/k/a Vinda Long Merkley in the Duchesne, Utah, Cemetery gives her birthdate as March 29, 1898. Evinda was Bill and Luzernia Long's second child, and I believe Luzernia's eighth child. Under the rule that the first baby can come any time, but the rest take 9 months, that would mean Bill and Luzernia were doing the horizontal mambo in Fremont, Wayne County, Utah on or about July 29, 1897.
(2) According to David Gillespie's October 12, 1897 letter to his mother, Harry Longabaugh was in the Baggs/Dixon/Savery/Slater area on June 28, 1897, the date of the Belle Fourche bank robbery, and did not leave the Little Snake area until August 1, 1897. After leaving the Little Snake area he was spotted in Red Lodge, Montana on September 18, 1897 and was arrested 20 miles north of Lavina, Montana, on September 22, 1897. Harry subsequently broke jail on October 31, 1897, at Deadwood, South Dakota.

Kid Lutefisk | 3:11 p.m. May 1, 2009

(Continued) If you accept as fact that a mortal person can not be in two places at one time, isn't this dispositive of the issue of whether or not Bill Long is Harry Longabaugh? If not dispositive, would you please tell me why it is not?

Kid Lutefisk | 3:29 p.m. May 1, 2009

Would you please tell me the date when you will publish the results of your DNA test results? Sufficient time has elapsed since the third exhumation/reinternment to have compared the DNA of every resident of Boston. Tempus fugit.

Anonymous | 6:59 p.m. May 1, 2009

"Below is the full quote, from the Q&A in the 2002 True West (online on our website). Memory does fade with age, but if its any comfort to you, I think Lula made up the return story." Per Buck.

Are you stating Buck, that you never accused Mrs. Betenson of possible having a corroded mind? Not even in one of your ads. (see above) I recall someone showing awhile back, in one of your many "articles", where you had made this accusation in writing. (is it still there or has it been removed?) Save us all from this, just be man enough to admit what you did and go on. It is simple. Or does the truth catch in your throat? I understand you denied it in Rock Springs and you still won't back up what yos have said. I, like most others, are fed up with this and you.

Driftwood | 7:07 p.m. May 1, 2009

How about that KSL Blog poll, isnt that amazing? 87% believe Sundance died in Utah, 8% believe he died in Bolivia.

Driftwood | 7:19 p.m. May 1, 2009

I see DB asks the questions and then answers the question. Would the answer be fact or would it be DB opinion?

The informed one | 10:43 p.m. May 1, 2009

Not only did Lula believe Butch returned but so did Pinkerton informant F. J. Dodge. (Pinkerton History #3345). Also Pinkerton memo dated Feb 26, 1910 states Butch was seen in 1909 in Wyoming and Utah. And Pinkerton memo dated June 8, 1908 states Butch was in Evanston Wyoming in May 1908. According to DB Butch was in Bolivia in May 1908. Butch cant be in two places at the same time. I will go with the Pinkertons

Little DB | 8:02 a.m. May 2, 2009

Tempus fugit is a Latin expression meaning "time flees",

Kid Lutefisk | 9:32 a.m. May 2, 2009

Informed One:

F. J. Dodge was not a Pinkerton Informant. He was a Special Officer for Wells Fargo Express Company. The Dodge document is not to be cited as "Pinkerton History #3445". Chicago Criminal History No. 3445 is the Pinkerton National Detective Agency Cross Index File Number for George Parker, three variations of the Cassidy alias, and the alias Ingerfield. The correct citation for the Dodge Document is:

Pinkerton Chicago Office Memorandum to James McParland, Esq., March 22, 1909, Chicago Criminal History No. 3445, George Parket et al, Container 89, Folio 7, Pinkerton National Detective Agency Records, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington D. C.

The document just cited reports the contents of a letter from Special Officer Dodge writing from Raton, New Mexico, to Principal William A. Pinkerton at the Chicago Office. The date of Dodge's letter was March 6, 1909. The salient points of the letter are:

(1) Dodge received what he believed to be credible information on February 28, 1909, that "Butch Cassidy" was in Price and Cisco, Utah prior to February 28, 1909, in the company of Gunplay Maxwell and Tom McCarty. McCarty and Maxwell were known to inhabit the Henry Mountains.

Kid Lutefisk | 10:09 a.m. May 2, 2009

(Continued)2) Butch was seen in Woodside, Utah, in the company of a man named Hall on March 1, 1909.

If you follow Mr. Buck's most excellent admonition to read raw reports with a critical eye and a healthy dose of scepticism, you will discover that your F. J. Dodge document is the "smoking gun" that blasted away Mr. Buck's absurd contention that Butch and Sundance died in San Vicente, Bolivia on November 6, 1908. I'm fairly confident that you'll do precisely that, and therefore let me be the first to congratulate you and Kid Nickle as the Dynamic Duo that established Ms Meadows and Mr Buck as the premiere practitioners of Slapstick History and Intellectual Pratfalls.

Congratulations would be premature if all the arrows in your quiver had blunt tips. A Pinkerton Document that is not corroborated, verified by independent documentation, and placed in context is an arrow with a blunt tip. Therefore sharpen it to the point where it penetrates with the same force as a .44-40. Remember, deliver a double tap to the red zone, then the coup de grace between the eyes.

Kid Lutefisk | 10:55 a.m. May 2, 2009

(Continued)In my opinion, the 1-2-3 to dispose of Buck is, in order:

1) The November 12, 1907 letter from J. P. Maxwell to The Boys at Concordia. The letter is printed on pages 98-99 in DUBAS If I were you I would devote considerable time to Santa Cruz and its geographic location to Rio Paraguay, Concepcion, Caraya Vuelta, Cochabamba, and the description of the land Hutch wanted. Hint, the locations referenced are directly linked to Tex Rickard and George West Musgrave and a very special ranching venture.

2.)Pinkerton Denver Criminal History No 1597, George Cassidy, Train Robber and Hold-Up, June 8, 1908,Container 89, Folio 7, Pinkerton National Detective Agency Records, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington, D. C. You already have the document, you just didn't cite it correctly. To turn this document into a lethal shot so you can claim your trophy Buck, conentrate on the Snake River Stock Growers Association meeting at Slater. Hint: George West Musgrave married Jano Magor. Jano Magor's older sister was Maud Lorene Magor who was Bert Charter's wife. At the time of the Ayer and Hadsell reports the Stock Growers met.

Kid Lutefisk | 11:21 a.m. May 2, 2009

Right after the Stock Growers met, Charlie Perkins, Bert and Kid Charter's relation by marriage, sold his Snake River ranch. At that time, Bert and Maud moved to Pinedale. Further hint: Kirk Calvert, whose daughter Mary married Elzy Lay, was the last wagon boss for the Ell Seven outfit before they went belly up in 1892. Charley Ayer bought the assets of the Ell Seven, established the Bar Ell Seven, and was the Pinkerton Informant not only of this document but countless others --always to the detriment of Harry Longabaugh. To close out 1908, remember that Jano and George musgrave got hitched on November 2, 1908.

3.) Your Coup de grace, shot three, is your Dodge document. You can make this lethal by following up on Hall. Hint: Hall is Tom Hall. Tom Hall is the alias of Tom Nichols. Tom Nichols was one of the moving forces behind the Newberry, Crockett, and Jones cattle raising operations in Patagonia as of 1887. Nichols is the cousin (not brother) of William Midvale "Mid" Nichols. Mid Nichols was the money behind the Nichols/Ryan saloon in Baggs. Also follow up on Tom McCarty. McCarty's Pinkerton Cross Index # is 1671.

Kid | 3:10 p.m. May 2, 2009

Kid Lutefisk
1895: Kite/Ryan before Nichols/Ryan 1896

Kid Lutefisk | 12:29 p.m. May 3, 2009

Thanks, Kid. You're quite right. Kite/Ryan was the predecessor. Would you happen to know the first or earliest use of the name Home Ranch Saloon to refer to the Nichols/Ryan establishment in Baggs? The front page of the Craig Courier carries ads from 1896 onward. Was Nichols involved in the Home Ranch Saloon in Rawlins with Ryan?

I appreciate any help. After three meals a day of lutefisk my mind has become more corroded than Mr. Buck believes Mrs. Betenson's became. Unlike Mrs. Betenson, I don't have a defense if Mr. Buck levels a similar charge at me.

I can't find any evidence that Tom Nichols owned the Mint Saloon in Price, Utah, prior to 1896. Do you know if he did?

The same Judge McGinnis who locked up Harry Longabaugh in 1887, colluded with Walter Stoll in Cheyenne to quash Tom Nichol's Texas murder warrant in 1890. In 1896 McGinnis moved to Price and opened a law office, and represented Nichols. In 1899 after J. B. Buhr was arrested at Granite Tom Nichols was a character witness --advised by McGinnis. The case was dismissed by Judge McCarty -- Tom McCarty's cousin.

Kid Lutefisk | 4:33 p.m. May 3, 2009

Harry Longabaugh was measured as being 5'9" tall at incarceration in 1887 and 5'10" tall in 1902 as recorded on his P.N.D.A., Card Number 1961, Harry Longabaugh, 470R, Container 93, Folio 3, Pinkerton National Detective Agency Records, Manuscript Division, Library of Congress, Washington, D. C.

According to Page 2, Preliminary Report, Examination of William Long of Duchesne, Utah, November 15, 2007,Bill Long was "approximately" 5' 8" in height at death in 1936. Use of the word "approximately" is troubling in this context. McCullough noted Longs evidentiary spndylolysis of the lumbar vertebra and Longs arthritic development of the lumbar centra but does not tell us if either notation was extant in the height calculation at death. The individual who conducted Longs first exhumation gave the height of the remains at 5'7".

The Long and the short of the matter is that Bill was far too little to be Harry. Kid Nickle has been hoist on his own petard. I'll leave Little DB the floor so he can clean up after me.

Kid Lutefisk | 7:48 a.m. May 4, 2009

In 1937 Florence Viola Long Ehlers, the eldest child of Bill and Luzernia Long wrote a letter to her nephew, Silas Laverle Morrell. In that letter Viola (as she was known) said that Bill claimed "as near as he could remember" that he arrived in Utah at age 21. If Bill was born in 1867, as Kid Nickle claims, then Bill's arrival in Utah would have been in 1888. Harry Longabaugh was either in custody or incarcerated at Sundance, Wyoming, from June, 1887 (the date of his second capture by Deputy Sheriff Eph K. Davis and Stock Detective William D. "Billy" Smith) until his pardon by Governor Thomas Moonlight on February 4, 1889. After a stage trip to Deadwood immediately after being pardoned, Longabaugh returned to Wyoming. On or about May 17, 1889 Longabaugh was in a dugout on Oil Creek, 35 miles north of Sundance when Sheriff E. B. Armstrong and Deputy Sheriff James Swisher shot and killed Buck Hanby in Longabaugh's presence. Whether "as near as he could remember" means 1887, 1888, or 1889, Harry and Bill must be two different people because a mortal person can not be in two places at once.

Disintrested Observer | 7:49 a.m. May 4, 2009

AC, Jayne, Lady, Anonymous: Just what was so offensive about asking: "I wondered if you, as someone who was intimately involved with the writing of the book, had an opinion on the matter???"

Jeesh, He just asked a question. From what I read, he has given Flack credit for her answer. No insult was intended, yet you seem to have taken great umbrage over a simple question. Calling other people names gets you nowhere, but shows how small minded you all are.

Kid Lutefisk | 8:34 a.m. May 4, 2009

According to William Wilson Morrell, Son of Cyrus Wilson Morrell, Grandson of Benjamin Morrell, Unknown Binding, Anonymous, LDS History Archive, Page 40, and William Wilson Morrell, Biography, Anonymous, Unpublished Monograph of 3 Pages, Page 2,a log hospital was constructed cira 1884 at Fish Lake, Utah. It was abandoned in 1886-1887. A piano was in the downstairs parlor of the two story structure. Enuch Sorensen and William Jensen testified that Charles Anderson, among others, shot the keys off the piano in the abandoned building. Anderson was fined $90.00 for his vandalism.

According to Perry Jackson, youngest son of Jeremiah "Kid " Jackson, Bill Long said that shooting the keys off the Fish Lake hospital piano was "the most expensive piano lesson I ever took".

The Fish Lake abandoned hospital burned down during hunting season in the fall of 1889 under "mysterious circumstances". Therefore, the keys of the piano were shot off prior to fall, 1889.

On October 16, 1901 Silas and Luzernia Morrell's third oldest daughter, Mary Frances, married Charles Anerson, making Charlie Bill Longs ste-son-in-law. Anerson never disputed Long's claim to being one of the culprits who whot off the piano keys.

Gaylen Robison | 8:52 a.m. May 4, 2009

Kid Lutefisk. You said "According to page 2, Preliminary report, Examination of William Long of Duchesne, Utah Nov. 15, 2007, Bill Long was approximately 5'8" in height at death in 1936." You should be troubled with that. I'm troubled that you even have a Preliminary report at all. Where did you get it? Who signed it? That first exhumation was done illegally. There was no court order, not even a hearing. They removed only the skull and a thigh bone for testing. They didn't even use rubber gloves. They didn't know. The whole affair was a first class boondoggle! City of Duchesne didn't know either, they gave permission and furnished the backhoe. The only reason g.grandpa Long was "approximately 5'8" was because somebody wanted him to be 5'8".
Doctor McCullough was not even involved with it then. The FIRST legal exhumation was December, 2008.
Maybe that's why it's taking longer to get results. I hope this sets the record straight on that.

Kid Lutefisk | 8:59 a.m. May 4, 2009

(continued) Uncle Earl Jackson in a July 2007 interview with Kid Nickle and yours truly, said that Charlie Anderson and Bill Long were employed at the Baker Horse Ranch, located approximately 20 miles northeast of Fremont in Paradise Valley. Uncle Earl fixed Long's employment at the Baker Horse Ranch from the time of Long's arrival in the area (1886-1889) until his marriage to the widow Luzernia Morrell on November 15, 1894.

The Baker Horse Ranch in Paradise Valley is between 25 and 30 miles from the site of the Fish Lake hospital depending on which trail you take.

Each of the evidentary items here are cross-corrobaration for the other and, if they are accurate, lead to the inescapable conclusion that Bill Long arrived in Utah before the late fall of 1889. If so, then Bill is not Harry.

But then, we have the question, if Bill is not Harry, what was his history prior to arrival in Utah? The answer to that question is the same as for each and every other question discussed in these pages. It has been Hiding In Plain Sight for well over a century.

Daniel Buck | 10:05 a.m. May 4, 2009

Kid Lutefisk,

Re Tom Nichols being involved in 1887 in George Newbery's Patagonian estancia venture. Specifically?

Re Cassidy's 1907 letter about ranching in Bolivia and Tex Rickard's ranching enterprise in Paraguay hundreds of miles away and several years later. The point is?

Context re Fred Dodge. Dodges 6 March 1909 letter to William Pinkerton (quoted in a 22 March letter from the Chicago Pinkerton manager to Denver manager McParland) is a request for information. After receiving a wanted circular, Dodge wrote on 18 March, saying, "I received some information about the last of Feb. that Butch Cassidy was seen," and rattling on about Cassidy, Maxwell, McCarty, and "a man by the name of Hall." "I feel pretty sure that this information is correct," Dodge adds helpfully.

McParland replied to the Chicago manager 25 March with a several page letter disparaging Dodge's detective abilities, saying that Dodge often drew on his imagination," and that he had "little use for a man who has lived on hot air the number of years that Captain Dodge has done."

Maybe McParland was right; maybe not. But his opinion provides context.

Dan

Ghosttown Bob | 10:25 a.m. May 4, 2009

Now the Bill Long crowd have used David Gillespie's letter to prove that Longabaugh was not in S. Dakota on June 28th at the time of the robbery, but the letter also proves that he wasn't in Utah either. Even if they say that Gillespie was "covering" for Longabaugh ie. saying that he was near Slater on the 29th when he really wasn't. What that means is that if he wasn't around Slater on the 28th, then he was actually at Belle Fourche robbing banks, since he was identified as one of the robbers.

Bill Long being Harry Longabaugh lose both ways.

Ghosttown Bob | 11:18 a.m. May 4, 2009

Well, I see the PTB only posted half of my last comment. Well, I was just congratulating the new "Kid" on the block on his prowess in figuring out the impact of the Gillespie letter. Even though I have posted it twice already, no one except Kid Lutefisk bothered to notice that nine months before Evinda's birth date was actually June 29th (not July 29th)Harry Longabaugh could not have both been home making babies as Bill Long and either working for the Readers or robbing banks at the same time.

Anonymous | 11:56 a.m. May 4, 2009

GTB
That makes Donna Ernst a member of the Bill Long crowd.

Kid Lutefisk
I guess Kite and Garner were one of many things you forgot to research.
Nickol was not the money behind the Home Ranch saloon in Baggs, nor was he involved in Ryan's saloon operations in Rawlins and Walcott.
Wyoming has a lot of potash, I understand potash is used for Lutfisk?

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7 photos

Archive photo

The Wild Bunch outlaws include the Sundance Kid, left front, and Butch Cassidy, right front. Similarities between William Henry Long and Sundance Kid have been noted.

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