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Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?
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Horse Creek Cowboy | 9:09 p.m. April 11, 2009
Jerry does not seem to get my sarcasm. Ghosttown Bob's comments about
Charlie Siringo are appropriate. Much of what Siringo wrote was, indeed, merely
a regurgitation of what others stated. Names, dates, and incidents are patently
changed. It would be like using Milt Hinkle as a "primary source."
According to Hinkle, Butch and Sundance were alive and well in Argentina in 1909
and 1913 and Harvey Logan died in 1941 in Bahia Blanca. Possible, but then
anything is "possible" but not likely.
Kid | 11:09 p.m. April 11, 2009
Year: 1897 Month: 10-October Day: 30
Harry Alonzo, who formerly worked for Reader & Co's cattle outfit at Snake river, and who joined the Powder Springs gang of thieves some time last winter, was arrested about a month ago in South Dakota, on the charge of robbing the Belle Fourche bank. Alonzo wrote down to some friends who had previously known him to come up and identify him. J. Galloway and E. Lahey of Baggs, went to Pierre, S. D, but the officers who had charge of Alonzo, refused to allow him to be seen, claiming that he had been identified as one of the bank robbers, and that the reward of $1,800 had been paid for his arrest. As a matter of fact, Alonzo was on Snake river at the date of the bank robbery, working for Reader & Co.
Harry Alonzo, who formerly worked for Reader & Co's cattle outfit at Snake river, and who joined the Powder Springs gang of thieves some time last winter, was arrested about a month ago in South Dakota, on the charge of robbing the Belle Fourche bank. Alonzo wrote down to some friends who had previously known him to come up and identify him. J. Galloway and E. Lahey of Baggs, went to Pierre, S. D, but the officers who had charge of Alonzo, refused to allow him to be seen, claiming that he had been identified as one of the bank robbers, and that the reward of $1,800 had been paid for his arrest. As a matter of fact, Alonzo was on Snake river at the date of the bank robbery, working for Reader & Co.
SAL | 1:35 p.m. April 12, 2009
I am sorta interested in the Sundance Kid. When I was looking for information
on my great grandfather on the internet I came across an offical paper from
Argentina. My great grandfather Hiram S. Kribs and a partner bought a cattle
ranch and lived in Patagonia shortly after the turn of the 20th century. I
heard stories that Sundance and Butch had the ranch adjoining them. My
grandfather was just a boy and he used to talk about them. My grandfather had
an older sister Ella. I think she would have been too young for Sundance. All
I know of her husband was his last name was Brown. They lived in a small hamlet
in the backwoods of Oregon where men running from the law would come to. All I
know of this Brown was he was of ill repute. My folks never talked about him.
I'm sort of interested in the DNA results as Sundance sometimes used Brown
as an alias.
Comments continue below
Randall | 1:58 p.m. April 12, 2009
Butch...This Is The Longest Wait We Ever Had For Oakley Polar King Fry Sauce.
Patience Sundance Patience.
Patience Sundance Patience.
Jerry Nickle | 2:08 p.m. April 12, 2009
Why do you and Buck engage in trying to destroy the credibility of others
believing it will strengthen Bucks position? All this does is damage the
credibility of you and Buck. Buck has done this for many years, and to many
people, thereby ruining his own credibility, especially with those that believe
B&S returned. Take the high road and produce the following documents that
will strengthen Bucks position.
#1 The Longabaugh family records that show S&E visited the Longabaugh Family in Pennsylvania in Jan 1901.
#2 The Tiffany letter showing Butch purchased a gold watch for Etta in Feb 1901.
#3 The receipt for the purchase of horses by B&S in Argentina in 1901.
#4 The Tito Juarez document showing B&S were in Argentina July 3, 1901.
#5 The Cattle brand document showing B&S registered for cattle brands in 1901.
This 1901 disagreement can be settled with Buck producing these documents
#1 The Longabaugh family records that show S&E visited the Longabaugh Family in Pennsylvania in Jan 1901.
#2 The Tiffany letter showing Butch purchased a gold watch for Etta in Feb 1901.
#3 The receipt for the purchase of horses by B&S in Argentina in 1901.
#4 The Tito Juarez document showing B&S were in Argentina July 3, 1901.
#5 The Cattle brand document showing B&S registered for cattle brands in 1901.
This 1901 disagreement can be settled with Buck producing these documents
TM | 7:00 a.m. April 13, 2009
I have read many reports of Longabaugh, Parker and Place leaving NY by shipline
to South America in or around 1901 or 1902. Three questions: Did they go to
Argentina via Europe? If they did, do we know how long they were in europe and
where and for how long? Fiinally, does anyone have a record of the passage (
Ships records, dates )and what names they used while traveling via this ship?
Daniel Buck | 9:42 a.m. April 13, 2009
SAL,
Kribs is discussed in BUSCADOS EN LA PATAGONIA, Marcelo Gavirati (2007), and in "New Wild Bunch Documents Surface," Daniel Buck and Anne Meadows, TRUE WEST, August 1997.
His name appears on some dated and undated land filings in Argentina, one being a 1903 petition regarding a proposed North American colony in Chubut.
On an undated filing, his signature appears alongside those of several other colonists, including J. P. Ryan (Butch) and H.A. Place (Sundance
If you want copies, let us know.
TM, the answer to your question will require a bit of research. More soon.
Dan
Kribs is discussed in BUSCADOS EN LA PATAGONIA, Marcelo Gavirati (2007), and in "New Wild Bunch Documents Surface," Daniel Buck and Anne Meadows, TRUE WEST, August 1997.
His name appears on some dated and undated land filings in Argentina, one being a 1903 petition regarding a proposed North American colony in Chubut.
On an undated filing, his signature appears alongside those of several other colonists, including J. P. Ryan (Butch) and H.A. Place (Sundance
If you want copies, let us know.
TM, the answer to your question will require a bit of research. More soon.
Dan
Double Eagle | 11:28 a.m. April 13, 2009
TM
As Mr. Buck points out, Butch Cassidy frequently used the alias Ryan in S/A, more than likely, because of his close relationship to John P. Ryan and his knowledge of the Ryan family. John P. Ryans brother, William Ryan, died in 1898. One could reasonably assume that Butch also used William Ryan as an alias. You could therefore reasonaby assume that the Wm. Ryan and Frank Jones listed in the passenger manifest, of the Wordsworth, could be Butch Cassidy and Harry Longabaugh. Although, Wm. Ryan was booked on the Wordsworth, he did not embark. One month later, the same William Ryan sailed on the Hevlious.
Name: Wm Ryan Arrival Date: 7 Jul 1901 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866 Age: 35 Gender: Male Port of Departure: Rio De Janeiro Ethnicity/Race/Nationality: American Ship Name: Wordsworth
Name: William Ryan Arrival Date: 2 Aug 1901 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866 Age: 35 Gender: Male Port of Departure: Buenos Aires Ethnicity/Race/Nationality: American Ship Name: Hevelius
As Mr. Buck points out, Butch Cassidy frequently used the alias Ryan in S/A, more than likely, because of his close relationship to John P. Ryan and his knowledge of the Ryan family. John P. Ryans brother, William Ryan, died in 1898. One could reasonably assume that Butch also used William Ryan as an alias. You could therefore reasonaby assume that the Wm. Ryan and Frank Jones listed in the passenger manifest, of the Wordsworth, could be Butch Cassidy and Harry Longabaugh. Although, Wm. Ryan was booked on the Wordsworth, he did not embark. One month later, the same William Ryan sailed on the Hevlious.
Name: Wm Ryan Arrival Date: 7 Jul 1901 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866 Age: 35 Gender: Male Port of Departure: Rio De Janeiro Ethnicity/Race/Nationality: American Ship Name: Wordsworth
Name: William Ryan Arrival Date: 2 Aug 1901 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866 Age: 35 Gender: Male Port of Departure: Buenos Aires Ethnicity/Race/Nationality: American Ship Name: Hevelius
TM | 12:26 p.m. April 13, 2009
Dan and Double Eagle...Thank you both for a quick reply. Still...do we know if
either ships (Wordsworth and the Hevlious)went straight to SA or did they go to
Europe first? Do we know the date of when both ships departed NY during this
period with certainity? Was there a reference to a Mrs. Brown on either ship by
chance also?
Daniel Buck | 2:29 p.m. April 13, 2009
TM,
Heres a bare-bones itinerary, cobbled together chiefly from Pinkerton reports and newspaper shipping news columns. For example, a Pinkerton report might have sailing departure/arrive dates; from that a ship name can be determined, or a ship name and a general date, from that a specific date cane be determined. No passengers lists have ever been located by modern researchers.
BC&SK&EP sailed from NY to BsAs on Februry 20 1901, on the Herminius, arriving in BsAs on March 23, 1901.
Theres no credible information that BC ever came back to the US during his time in Argentina (or later, for that matter).
SK&EP returned to NY from BsAs March 3, 1902, on the Soldier Prince, arriving in NY April 3, 1902, and departing NY for BsAs again on July 10, 1902, on the Honorius, arriving in BsAs August 9, 1902.
CONTINUED....
Heres a bare-bones itinerary, cobbled together chiefly from Pinkerton reports and newspaper shipping news columns. For example, a Pinkerton report might have sailing departure/arrive dates; from that a ship name can be determined, or a ship name and a general date, from that a specific date cane be determined. No passengers lists have ever been located by modern researchers.
BC&SK&EP sailed from NY to BsAs on Februry 20 1901, on the Herminius, arriving in BsAs on March 23, 1901.
Theres no credible information that BC ever came back to the US during his time in Argentina (or later, for that matter).
SK&EP returned to NY from BsAs March 3, 1902, on the Soldier Prince, arriving in NY April 3, 1902, and departing NY for BsAs again on July 10, 1902, on the Honorius, arriving in BsAs August 9, 1902.
CONTINUED....
Daniel Buck | 2:33 p.m. April 13, 2009
SK&EP were said to have visited the St. Louis World Exposition in 1904, but
the sailing details are not known. On June 28, 1905, SK wrote a friend in
Cholila that he and EP had arrived in Valpariaso, Chile, and intended to leave
for San Francisco on June 30, but its not known if they did, and if so, when and
on what ship one or both returned to SoAm.
Sources: Ernst (2009), Patterson (1998), Meadows (2003).
In Argentina, SK&EP were Harry and Ethel Place, and BC was James P. Ryan. SK&EP might have traveled as Mr. & Mrs. Matthews in 1905 or 1906. Unclear.
Cant recall if any of the above ships sailed to/from BsAs via Europe. For what its worth, the possibility that BC&SK traveled on the Wordsworth and Hevelius as William Ryan and Frank Jones strikes me as unduly speculative. That said, the extent of our knowledge of the bandits activities in SoAm is limited.
Dan
Sources: Ernst (2009), Patterson (1998), Meadows (2003).
In Argentina, SK&EP were Harry and Ethel Place, and BC was James P. Ryan. SK&EP might have traveled as Mr. & Mrs. Matthews in 1905 or 1906. Unclear.
Cant recall if any of the above ships sailed to/from BsAs via Europe. For what its worth, the possibility that BC&SK traveled on the Wordsworth and Hevelius as William Ryan and Frank Jones strikes me as unduly speculative. That said, the extent of our knowledge of the bandits activities in SoAm is limited.
Dan
TM | 3:53 p.m. April 13, 2009
Dan, Thanks for sharing the info and what has been uncovered so far.
Double Eagle | 5:14 p.m. April 13, 2009
TM
I unfortunately did not consult Ernst, Patterson, or Meadows, before I speculated. Of course, no passengers lists have ever been located by modern researchers. Therefore, its unduly speculative Ghosttown Bob claim Etta, Mrs. E. Place, arrived New York in July of 1905 on the ship Seguranca. TM, before I respond to any of your future posts, Ill clear it with Mr. Buck
I unfortunately did not consult Ernst, Patterson, or Meadows, before I speculated. Of course, no passengers lists have ever been located by modern researchers. Therefore, its unduly speculative Ghosttown Bob claim Etta, Mrs. E. Place, arrived New York in July of 1905 on the ship Seguranca. TM, before I respond to any of your future posts, Ill clear it with Mr. Buck
Anonymous | 6:26 p.m. April 13, 2009
HCC & GTB
Its all rather confusing, youve repeatedly told us the Pinkertons, Newspapers, and Siringo cannot be considered reliable sources, yet, you never question Dan Buck when he sites them as a source.
Its all rather confusing, youve repeatedly told us the Pinkertons, Newspapers, and Siringo cannot be considered reliable sources, yet, you never question Dan Buck when he sites them as a source.
jimlyn | 6:27 p.m. April 13, 2009
Interesting that the next entry down from Mrs E.Place on the ship's
manifest mentions Valpariaso Chile as their home.
Jerry Nickle | 6:29 p.m. April 13, 2009
Dan Buck writes:
"BC&SK&EP sailed from NY to BsAs on Februry 20 1901, on the Herminius, arriving in BsAs on March 23, 1901."
What is your documentation that BC left New York with SK and EP on Feb 20, 1901?
"BC&SK&EP sailed from NY to BsAs on Februry 20 1901, on the Herminius, arriving in BsAs on March 23, 1901."
What is your documentation that BC left New York with SK and EP on Feb 20, 1901?
Kid | 6:19 a.m. April 14, 2009
THE ANACONDA STANDARD: SUNDAY MORNING, JULY 10, .1910.
STORY OF A BANK HOLDUP TOLD BY ONE OF THE BAND
This narrative of the holdup of the "Winnemucca (Nevada) bank was prepared for the Standard by Harry Lonbaugh (Lonbauch he spells It), the notorious outlaw, while in the mountains of Bolivia, South America, where, at latest accounts, he still was pursuing the career of a bandit and political revolutionist. He gave the copy to a friend who, returning to the United States, has transmitted it to the Standard. The Winnemucca bank was held up in 1902. The robbers made off with $16,000 in gold. As will be observed, Lonbaugh writes terse, idiomatic English. He Is very
sparing in his use of capitals, commas and periods, and some editing; has been necessary, to overcome these deficiencies. But scarcely a word has been changed.Editor of the Standard.
The Winnemucca Holdup by One of Them."
STORY OF A BANK HOLDUP TOLD BY ONE OF THE BAND
This narrative of the holdup of the "Winnemucca (Nevada) bank was prepared for the Standard by Harry Lonbaugh (Lonbauch he spells It), the notorious outlaw, while in the mountains of Bolivia, South America, where, at latest accounts, he still was pursuing the career of a bandit and political revolutionist. He gave the copy to a friend who, returning to the United States, has transmitted it to the Standard. The Winnemucca bank was held up in 1902. The robbers made off with $16,000 in gold. As will be observed, Lonbaugh writes terse, idiomatic English. He Is very
sparing in his use of capitals, commas and periods, and some editing; has been necessary, to overcome these deficiencies. But scarcely a word has been changed.Editor of the Standard.
The Winnemucca Holdup by One of Them."
Ghosttown Bob | 7:40 a.m. April 14, 2009
Kid: Great Find! This seems to be the same article that was re-printed two years
later in the Buenos Aires Standard. Someone must have been peddling this story
around to different newspapers as early as 1910. Maybe earlier?? This story may
yet be found in several other newspapers around the same time.
I wonder who the "friend" was? Apparently someone Longabaugh knew in SA.
I wonder who the "friend" was? Apparently someone Longabaugh knew in SA.
Kid | 8:56 a.m. April 14, 2009
GTB
Actually, I found that article over a year ago, while researching Tap Duncan. Didnt know it was the same article as the Buenos Aires article, until a few days ago. Whoever wrote the article, no doubt, had some inside information. Harry Longabaugh certainly did not write the article. For instance, I do believe Longabaugh knew how to spell his name, and the date of the Winnemucca robbery. He would have known Flatnose George Currie was dead, and he would not have needed to pull a gun on Jim Duncan at Three Creeks, to get what he needed etc. He did however, know Carver was involved, something that was not well known in 1910, he just didnt know his name was William Carver. There was enough factual information in this article, that along with several other documents, articles, and confidential information, to convince me, that Cassidy, Lonabaugh and Carver pulled off the Winnemucca job.
By the way, Tap Duncan is one of the few things that I must admit Daniel Buck got right, the other one, I may never tell.
Actually, I found that article over a year ago, while researching Tap Duncan. Didnt know it was the same article as the Buenos Aires article, until a few days ago. Whoever wrote the article, no doubt, had some inside information. Harry Longabaugh certainly did not write the article. For instance, I do believe Longabaugh knew how to spell his name, and the date of the Winnemucca robbery. He would have known Flatnose George Currie was dead, and he would not have needed to pull a gun on Jim Duncan at Three Creeks, to get what he needed etc. He did however, know Carver was involved, something that was not well known in 1910, he just didnt know his name was William Carver. There was enough factual information in this article, that along with several other documents, articles, and confidential information, to convince me, that Cassidy, Lonabaugh and Carver pulled off the Winnemucca job.
By the way, Tap Duncan is one of the few things that I must admit Daniel Buck got right, the other one, I may never tell.
Ghosttown Bob | 9:23 a.m. April 14, 2009
Kid: I still think this is a good piece of sleuthing. This along with your 11:09
p.m. April 11, 2009 post on Harry Alonzo is the type of researching that is
needed. I am interested in finding a little more about that entry. Is it a
Journal, newspaper, letter? I have seen David Gillespie's letter, but
wasn't aware of more confirmation that Longabaugh was not involved in the
Belle Fourche robbery.
Horse Creek Cowboy | 10:05 a.m. April 14, 2009
To Anon:
In using Pinkerton files, one must consider the source of the information in the file. If the source is disclosed, one may then determine whether the Pinkerton information is reliable. Meadows in her book traces the sources of the Pinkerton information from Buenos Aires. The point is one may not blanketly accept the Pinkertons as Holy Gospel.
Similarly, Charlie Siringo's versions have to be independently confirmed. Siringo in A Cowboy Detective indicates that Pinkerton Agent "Rank Curren" was told by "Jim Lowe," the proprietor of the Alma Saloon to get out of town. Lowe had left the area before Siringo hit town. In other words, Siringo had no personal knowledge of "Lowe's" presence in Alma or when. Siringo was told that "Lowe" was Cassidy by "Blake Graham," who was drunk, while the two shared drinks on the Silver City stage. Thus, we do not know from Siringo's account when Lowe left Alma. Incidently, the Pinkertons, according to Siringo, did not believe that Lowe was Cassidy. See Siringo pp 353 et seq.
In using Pinkerton files, one must consider the source of the information in the file. If the source is disclosed, one may then determine whether the Pinkerton information is reliable. Meadows in her book traces the sources of the Pinkerton information from Buenos Aires. The point is one may not blanketly accept the Pinkertons as Holy Gospel.
Similarly, Charlie Siringo's versions have to be independently confirmed. Siringo in A Cowboy Detective indicates that Pinkerton Agent "Rank Curren" was told by "Jim Lowe," the proprietor of the Alma Saloon to get out of town. Lowe had left the area before Siringo hit town. In other words, Siringo had no personal knowledge of "Lowe's" presence in Alma or when. Siringo was told that "Lowe" was Cassidy by "Blake Graham," who was drunk, while the two shared drinks on the Silver City stage. Thus, we do not know from Siringo's account when Lowe left Alma. Incidently, the Pinkertons, according to Siringo, did not believe that Lowe was Cassidy. See Siringo pp 353 et seq.
Kid | 10:56 a.m. April 14, 2009
GTB
The Harry Alonzo article appeared in two different newspapers, that Im aware of. What you need to do, is contact The American Heritage Center University of Wyoming and get a copy of Early History Of The Snake River Valley by John F. Gooldy. You have to understand that when Gooldy wrote this, his brother-in-law, Dave Gillespie, was still alive. There were many in the valley who knew Gillespie gave the Pinkertons the Longabaugh photo, he never mentions Gillespie by name, but when you put it altogether, you know who hes talking about. Gooldy confirms what Gillespie says in his letter, plus the photograph and Cassidy and Longabaughs participation in the Winnemucca robbery.
The Harry Alonzo article appeared in two different newspapers, that Im aware of. What you need to do, is contact The American Heritage Center University of Wyoming and get a copy of Early History Of The Snake River Valley by John F. Gooldy. You have to understand that when Gooldy wrote this, his brother-in-law, Dave Gillespie, was still alive. There were many in the valley who knew Gillespie gave the Pinkertons the Longabaugh photo, he never mentions Gillespie by name, but when you put it altogether, you know who hes talking about. Gooldy confirms what Gillespie says in his letter, plus the photograph and Cassidy and Longabaughs participation in the Winnemucca robbery.
Kid | 10:57 a.m. April 14, 2009
GTB
January 15, 1897
Charley Phllbrlck, Bert Charter and Harry Alonzo passed through Dixon with their horses going to the mouth of Big hole where they will reside during the winter and look after the cattle interests of our stockman, who are taking advantage of the mild winter to run their cattle on the Powder springs desert
January 28, 1897
After the Cattle Interests
Charley Philbrick, Bert Charter and Harry Alonzo passed through Dixon with their horses going to the mouth of Big Hole, where they will reside during the winter and look after the cattle interests of our stockmen, who are taking advantage of the mild winter to run their rattle on the Powder Springs desert. Dixon correspondent of the Rawlins Republican.
January 15, 1897
Charley Phllbrlck, Bert Charter and Harry Alonzo passed through Dixon with their horses going to the mouth of Big hole where they will reside during the winter and look after the cattle interests of our stockman, who are taking advantage of the mild winter to run their cattle on the Powder springs desert
January 28, 1897
After the Cattle Interests
Charley Philbrick, Bert Charter and Harry Alonzo passed through Dixon with their horses going to the mouth of Big Hole, where they will reside during the winter and look after the cattle interests of our stockmen, who are taking advantage of the mild winter to run their rattle on the Powder Springs desert. Dixon correspondent of the Rawlins Republican.
Kid | 11:21 a.m. April 14, 2009
HCC
Let me ask you this. In sourcing the Pinkerton files, was Marshall Frank Hadsell & Charlie Ayers, considered a good source of information.
Let me ask you this. In sourcing the Pinkerton files, was Marshall Frank Hadsell & Charlie Ayers, considered a good source of information.
Ghosttown Bob | 11:55 a.m. April 14, 2009
Kid, Thanks, got the article. I don't know how I missed it since I have the
other two. I'll see if the American Heritage Center will send me a copy.
Daniel Buck | 12:11 p.m. April 14, 2009
Kid,
Excellent, excellent.
I passed the A. Standard version on to Mike Bell to see what observations he may have. The 1912 BsAs Standard version, as you may have noticed, is somewhat different. Someone rewrote parts of it.
Also, the man depicted as "Harry Lonbagh" is Ben Kilpatrick; it's a drawing from the newspaper coverage of Kilpatrick's 1901 arrest in St. Louis. Initially, he was identified as Harry Longbaugh/Longabaugh.
In some stories, Longabaugh was described as an associate of "Buck Cassidy" -- no relation.
Dan
Excellent, excellent.
I passed the A. Standard version on to Mike Bell to see what observations he may have. The 1912 BsAs Standard version, as you may have noticed, is somewhat different. Someone rewrote parts of it.
Also, the man depicted as "Harry Lonbagh" is Ben Kilpatrick; it's a drawing from the newspaper coverage of Kilpatrick's 1901 arrest in St. Louis. Initially, he was identified as Harry Longbaugh/Longabaugh.
In some stories, Longabaugh was described as an associate of "Buck Cassidy" -- no relation.
Dan
Horse Creek Cowboy | 2:54 p.m. April 14, 2009
Kid,
Sheriff Hadsell had a long and distinquished career as sheriff, legislator, US Marshal, Prison Warden. He participated in an interview with Bob Lee and was a part of the posse after the Tipton Robbery and investigated the Wilcox Robbery. Hadsell's statements as to what Bob Lee told him should be regarded as reliable as to what Lee said. It doesn't mean that Lee was truthful. But the question again must be posed, What did Hadsell actually know as opposed to speculation. As to Ayers, Patterson suggests that Butch actually worked for Ayers but cites to secondary sources. You might re-read Gary Wilson's "Tiger of the Wild Bunch," and
Patterson at p. 56 et seq. and Kelly's "The Outlaw Trail." Patterson relies extensively on Meadows.
Your question, however, proves the point, Pinkerton files to a great extent constitute secondary sources. Thus, ultimately, unless we repeat old rumors and speculation we must find original documents. My original point, however, was more about whether I would accept Charlie Siringo as a "primary source." My answer, as obtuse as it was, was NO! He was a secondary source which requires conirmation from other sources.
Sheriff Hadsell had a long and distinquished career as sheriff, legislator, US Marshal, Prison Warden. He participated in an interview with Bob Lee and was a part of the posse after the Tipton Robbery and investigated the Wilcox Robbery. Hadsell's statements as to what Bob Lee told him should be regarded as reliable as to what Lee said. It doesn't mean that Lee was truthful. But the question again must be posed, What did Hadsell actually know as opposed to speculation. As to Ayers, Patterson suggests that Butch actually worked for Ayers but cites to secondary sources. You might re-read Gary Wilson's "Tiger of the Wild Bunch," and
Patterson at p. 56 et seq. and Kelly's "The Outlaw Trail." Patterson relies extensively on Meadows.
Your question, however, proves the point, Pinkerton files to a great extent constitute secondary sources. Thus, ultimately, unless we repeat old rumors and speculation we must find original documents. My original point, however, was more about whether I would accept Charlie Siringo as a "primary source." My answer, as obtuse as it was, was NO! He was a secondary source which requires conirmation from other sources.
Anonymous | 11:28 a.m. April 15, 2009
GTB
You might find Gooldy here also.
"The David Gillespie Papers are housed at the Museum of North West Colorado in Craig Colorado and are available are available to the public."
You might find Gooldy here also.
"The David Gillespie Papers are housed at the Museum of North West Colorado in Craig Colorado and are available are available to the public."
Anonymous | 11:30 a.m. April 16, 2009
If the Buenos Aires Standard story, is bogus, doesnt that bring into question
the accuracy of the other S/A documents?
Kid | 7:28 a.m. April 17, 2009
In the latter part of May 1908, several men, who had known Butch Cassidy,
reported seeing Cassidy in Rawlins. Wm. Daley, vice president of the Rawlins
National Bank, spoke to Cassidy on the street, and told Frank A. Hadsell. Judge
David H. Craig told Hadsell, that he had been told Butch was in the country.
Hadsell speculated that Judge Craig had been told that Cassidy was in town, by
John P. Ryan. Frank Hadsell reported the sighting to the Denver office of the
Pinkertons.
At the same time, several men in Baggs reported seeing Harry Longabaugh in Baggs. Charlie Ayres reported Butch Cassidys partner, alias Johnson, (code for Cassidys partner in the Winnemucca bank robbery), had been at the home of Bert Charter, and reported the sighting to the Denver office of the Pinkertons.
Both sightings reportedly were investigated by local authorities, who concluded that it was Cassidy and Longabaugh.
Also, Pinkertons Denver Office, June 8, 1908, Jas McPharland, Denver Criminal History #1597
Whether it can be proven to the satisfaction of everyone, I doubt it.
At the same time, several men in Baggs reported seeing Harry Longabaugh in Baggs. Charlie Ayres reported Butch Cassidys partner, alias Johnson, (code for Cassidys partner in the Winnemucca bank robbery), had been at the home of Bert Charter, and reported the sighting to the Denver office of the Pinkertons.
Both sightings reportedly were investigated by local authorities, who concluded that it was Cassidy and Longabaugh.
Also, Pinkertons Denver Office, June 8, 1908, Jas McPharland, Denver Criminal History #1597
Whether it can be proven to the satisfaction of everyone, I doubt it.
Horse Creek Cowboy | 2:24 p.m. April 17, 2009
As to Sundance and Butch in Rawlins in 08, the sources are, then, what Daly told
Hadsell and possibly what Ryan told Craig who in turn told Hadsell, and what an
unknown person told Ayres as to Johnson. Not admissible in a court of law
(hearsay, double hearsay, and triple hearsay), but bears looking into.
"reportedly," Elzy Lay visited Baggs sometime around September of
'07 bearing with him the remains of money that he previously stored in a
tack room of the Jones Brothers' store in Alma, stealing Jake
Hildenbrand's horse. See Tanner, Karen Holliday, "New Mexico Prisoner
#1348"
Kid | 5:17 p.m. April 17, 2009
HCC
As Im sure you know, Charlie Ayers and Bob Meldrum were Pinkerton operatives.
Ayers didnt say he was told Longabaugh was in Baggs, he knew Longabaugh was in Baggs. The others just confirmed Longabaugh was in Baggs. The others, who reported Cassidy was in Rawlins, said he came to see his old friend Ryan, who had been seriously hurt.
HCC, tell Dan, Sharkey was the name of the dog in the photo.
As Im sure you know, Charlie Ayers and Bob Meldrum were Pinkerton operatives.
Ayers didnt say he was told Longabaugh was in Baggs, he knew Longabaugh was in Baggs. The others just confirmed Longabaugh was in Baggs. The others, who reported Cassidy was in Rawlins, said he came to see his old friend Ryan, who had been seriously hurt.
HCC, tell Dan, Sharkey was the name of the dog in the photo.
Kid | 5:18 p.m. April 17, 2009
Newspaper Name: Carbon County Journal City: Rawlins Year: 1908 Month:
02-February Day: 22 Page: 01
J. P. RYAN HURT.
Fall of Rock in Coal Mine at Walcott Pins Him Down
On Wednesday J. P. Ryan of this city meet with a serious accident in his coal mine at Walcott. and it is a miracle that he Was" not killed outright. He had employed some new miners a few days ago, and on Wednesday went to the mine to see how work was progressing. He was in the tunnel watching the progress of the work when without any warning a large piece of rock fell from the roof, striking him on the back of the head and shoulders He attempted to jump out of the way but the rock caught him on the back and hips and pinned him to the ground. The rock so heavy that the miners had to use a pry to release him from his perilous position. "Mr. Ryan was at once brought to Rawlins and is now at his home and is doing as well as possible under the circumstances.
J. P. RYAN HURT.
Fall of Rock in Coal Mine at Walcott Pins Him Down
On Wednesday J. P. Ryan of this city meet with a serious accident in his coal mine at Walcott. and it is a miracle that he Was" not killed outright. He had employed some new miners a few days ago, and on Wednesday went to the mine to see how work was progressing. He was in the tunnel watching the progress of the work when without any warning a large piece of rock fell from the roof, striking him on the back of the head and shoulders He attempted to jump out of the way but the rock caught him on the back and hips and pinned him to the ground. The rock so heavy that the miners had to use a pry to release him from his perilous position. "Mr. Ryan was at once brought to Rawlins and is now at his home and is doing as well as possible under the circumstances.
Horse Creek Cowboy | 7:09 p.m. April 17, 2009
Kid, Five years ago, the Star-Tribune reported that Bad Bob's body had been found north of Rawlins. Unfortunately, the skeleton upon measurement was several inches too short. Thus, we have another indivdual we can search for beside Etta, Mrs. Porter, and Ambrose Bierce. That is why I asked for the indicated height of poor old Bill Long. There was not a direct answer to the question as to whether actual measurements were made of Bill (as opposed to comparisom of photos)
With regards to reports of sightings. The Salt Lake Herald, June 13, 1905, page 6, reported that Butch had visited Cheyenne. That, however, is inconsistent with his being in South America at the time. Incidently, Geoff Dobson on his website reports that George Taplin "Tap" Duncan died in Kingman in 1944 after being struck by a Ford.
I assume Dan reads this blog since he has often responded to commens by others.
Kid | 9:06 a.m. April 18, 2009
James P. Duncan, older brother of George Taplin Duncan.
James P. Duncan, according to his death certificate was born January 17, 1862, in Leon County, Texas. He operated the store in Three Creeks, Idaho. On March 7, 1898 he married Elizabeth "Lizzie" Helsley, in Mountain Home, Idaho. According to the Anaconda article, Cassidy, Longabaugh and Carver stopped at his store for supplies, before the Winnemucca bank robbery.
James and Lizzie operated the store at Three Creeks until sometime after 1910.
James Duncan, then becomes a saloon keeper at Jarbidge, Nevada. In 1918, Barry Ketchum Duncan is bartending at his uncles saloon. By 1920, James Duncan is divorced from Lizzie and living in Rogerson, Idaho. James P. Duncan died November 24, 1943, Kingman, Mohave County, Arizona.
One thing that caught my attention and raised a red flag, other than the date and names in the Anaconda Standard article, was the Three Creeks episode. If anything, Three Creeks was a prearranged supply point on their way to Winnemucca. Cassidy, Carver and Longabaugh knew Jim Duncan through Tap Duncan. Im surprised that someone who wrote an 18 page article on Tap Duncan missed the connection.
James P. Duncan, according to his death certificate was born January 17, 1862, in Leon County, Texas. He operated the store in Three Creeks, Idaho. On March 7, 1898 he married Elizabeth "Lizzie" Helsley, in Mountain Home, Idaho. According to the Anaconda article, Cassidy, Longabaugh and Carver stopped at his store for supplies, before the Winnemucca bank robbery.
James and Lizzie operated the store at Three Creeks until sometime after 1910.
James Duncan, then becomes a saloon keeper at Jarbidge, Nevada. In 1918, Barry Ketchum Duncan is bartending at his uncles saloon. By 1920, James Duncan is divorced from Lizzie and living in Rogerson, Idaho. James P. Duncan died November 24, 1943, Kingman, Mohave County, Arizona.
One thing that caught my attention and raised a red flag, other than the date and names in the Anaconda Standard article, was the Three Creeks episode. If anything, Three Creeks was a prearranged supply point on their way to Winnemucca. Cassidy, Carver and Longabaugh knew Jim Duncan through Tap Duncan. Im surprised that someone who wrote an 18 page article on Tap Duncan missed the connection.
Anonymous | 12:35 p.m. April 18, 2009
"In your book on page 132 you state on Feb 4, 1901 Butch purchased a
beautiful gold watch for Etta for $40.10. Your source is an Email from Dan Buck.
There is no documentation for this purchase. It never happened. You should not
assume all of Dan Bucks information is factual.
Dan
If there is documentation for this purchase produce it for pier review."
Haven't we been here before? If he had such a thing, there is no reason to hide it, is there? Unless, of course, he only "reportedly" has it. Could he have created such a thing to back a theory? Surely not. Where is it then?
Dan
If there is documentation for this purchase produce it for pier review."
Haven't we been here before? If he had such a thing, there is no reason to hide it, is there? Unless, of course, he only "reportedly" has it. Could he have created such a thing to back a theory? Surely not. Where is it then?
Daniel Buck | 2:21 p.m. April 18, 2009
HCC,
Reports of the whereabouts of BC&SK are almost too numerous to count; if they were ever written up, all of them, the essay would be novella-length.
As I've mentioned before there are dozens, perhaps now upwards of 75, different accounts of the death of Butch Cassidy on three continents between 1898 and the 1970s. Sundance, always relegated to second fiddle, only has a couple dozen expiration tales.
Consider that in the early 1900s there were men who looked like Butch, who pretended to be Butch. There were informants who wanted to report Butch, whether they saw him or not, people who said they knew him, whether they had ever laid eyes on him in their life. There were also Butch Cassidys in the newspapers -- a boxer, a wrestler, and, get this, a race horse.
Last month, Utah newspapers carried an obit for Bart Anderson, a longtime folklorist, guide, story teller, and prankster in southern Utah. Ranger Bart, as he was known, said Butch was buried in Parowan and Sundance and Ethel resided, skeletal arm in skeletal arm, in a Leeds cemetery.
Ambrose Bierce, now there's a mystery.
Dan
Reports of the whereabouts of BC&SK are almost too numerous to count; if they were ever written up, all of them, the essay would be novella-length.
As I've mentioned before there are dozens, perhaps now upwards of 75, different accounts of the death of Butch Cassidy on three continents between 1898 and the 1970s. Sundance, always relegated to second fiddle, only has a couple dozen expiration tales.
Consider that in the early 1900s there were men who looked like Butch, who pretended to be Butch. There were informants who wanted to report Butch, whether they saw him or not, people who said they knew him, whether they had ever laid eyes on him in their life. There were also Butch Cassidys in the newspapers -- a boxer, a wrestler, and, get this, a race horse.
Last month, Utah newspapers carried an obit for Bart Anderson, a longtime folklorist, guide, story teller, and prankster in southern Utah. Ranger Bart, as he was known, said Butch was buried in Parowan and Sundance and Ethel resided, skeletal arm in skeletal arm, in a Leeds cemetery.
Ambrose Bierce, now there's a mystery.
Dan
Kid | 3:08 p.m. April 18, 2009
Typo, The Tap Duncan article. Its only 10 pages.
HCC
The individual who posted this, has a different definition of Sourcing the Pinkerton files.
Using his (DB) definition everything in the Pinkerton files is an unconfirmed secondary source. Every Cassidy historian including Buck use these unconfirmed secondary Pinkerton sources as the basis for their Cassidy history. The first is the Diamo report. The second is the April 3, 1902 memo. The third is V111 history memo. There are many others, they do not question, and they are all secondary.
In Buck's book on page 34 he refers to Siringo as "The Pinkerton's Ace Detective". If Siringo found something that contradicts what Buck has written, Siringo's discovery then requires confirmation from other sources. When Ernst, Paterson and every other modern writer use Buck as a source they state what he tells them as an unquestionable fact,. that does not require any confirmation because it is the finale word.
HCC
The individual who posted this, has a different definition of Sourcing the Pinkerton files.
Using his (DB) definition everything in the Pinkerton files is an unconfirmed secondary source. Every Cassidy historian including Buck use these unconfirmed secondary Pinkerton sources as the basis for their Cassidy history. The first is the Diamo report. The second is the April 3, 1902 memo. The third is V111 history memo. There are many others, they do not question, and they are all secondary.
In Buck's book on page 34 he refers to Siringo as "The Pinkerton's Ace Detective". If Siringo found something that contradicts what Buck has written, Siringo's discovery then requires confirmation from other sources. When Ernst, Paterson and every other modern writer use Buck as a source they state what he tells them as an unquestionable fact,. that does not require any confirmation because it is the finale word.
Anonymous | 4:33 p.m. April 18, 2009
We seem to have a "dodge em" champion in our midst. Why not answer
ALL your questions Mr. Buck? Not just those you can!
Daniel Buck | 4:58 p.m. April 18, 2009
Kid,
Whatever your point is, it's buried in a miasma of incomprehensible references. The report that Dimaio wrote is a primary source, not a secondary source. Whether it's accurate or not in all respects is another question. The "V111 history memo"? What??
In Meadows (2003), she wrote that after an 1889 holdup the "Pinkertons sent ace detective Charles A. Siringo" after the bandits, but he lost their trail. That's a reference to how the agency viewed him; it has nothing to do with whether what he later wrote was accurate or not.
"New Revelations About Harvey Logan Following the Parachute Train Robbery," WOLA Journal, vol. VI, no. 1, Spring 1997, is about controversy over who died, not Tap Duncan's family. Duncan makes an appearance on the second to the last page of the article.
Interesting item re Tap Duncan's brother, James. If I had known of it, I would have given it a line in the article, in the section about the interconnections between the Ketchums, Sheffields, Duncans, and Kilpatricks.
In fact, the article not yet written is the one about all those familial links. Why not take a shot at it yourself?
Dan
Whatever your point is, it's buried in a miasma of incomprehensible references. The report that Dimaio wrote is a primary source, not a secondary source. Whether it's accurate or not in all respects is another question. The "V111 history memo"? What??
In Meadows (2003), she wrote that after an 1889 holdup the "Pinkertons sent ace detective Charles A. Siringo" after the bandits, but he lost their trail. That's a reference to how the agency viewed him; it has nothing to do with whether what he later wrote was accurate or not.
"New Revelations About Harvey Logan Following the Parachute Train Robbery," WOLA Journal, vol. VI, no. 1, Spring 1997, is about controversy over who died, not Tap Duncan's family. Duncan makes an appearance on the second to the last page of the article.
Interesting item re Tap Duncan's brother, James. If I had known of it, I would have given it a line in the article, in the section about the interconnections between the Ketchums, Sheffields, Duncans, and Kilpatricks.
In fact, the article not yet written is the one about all those familial links. Why not take a shot at it yourself?
Dan
Horse Creek Cowboy | 6:56 p.m. April 18, 2009
The intriguing thing about Tap Duncan is that persons who allegedly knew Duncan
positively identified the corpse at Parachute as Tap Duncan. As indicated by
Geoff Dobson, Tap lived to 1944 and thus the eyeball witnesses in Parachute were
in error. That also indicates the frailties of eyeball witnesses and
identifications. Tap, however, was not necessarily as pure as the driven snow
(which is still falling in Horse Creek). In 1889, his older brother Dick Duncan
slew a family with the proverbial blunt object near Eagle Pass and stole their
wagon and household goods. Court records suggest that Tap may have been at
least indirectly involved. After appeals to the Texas Court of Appeals and the
US Supreme Court, Dick was the star performer at the only legal hanging in
Maverick County. Tap was the nephew by marriage of Tom Ketchum. Again, the
significance of Tap is the doubt as to Harvey Logan's death raised by the
misidentification, something we are still debating as undoubtedly we will be
debated as to Sundance one hundred years from now.
Kid | 3:40 p.m. April 19, 2009
Dan,
About thirty or more years before you ever heard of Butch Cassidy and Harry Longabaugh, I was listening to men retell their personal experiences and memories of Butch Cassidy, Harry Alonzo, The Wild Bunch, Jack Ryan, Ora Haley, Noah and Albert Reader, Jeff and Mike Dunbar, David Gillespie, Wilcox, Tipton, Winnemucca, etc., etc. I knew Tom Vernon, John Gooldy, David Gillespie, Ed Wren, etc. I knew a man, who not only was there, but participated. When Charles Kelly tried to interview him, he threw him out of the house, told Kelly, Ill never tell you what I know, if you ever come around again, Ill cut your lying tongue out. He once told me never tell a newspaper man or writer what you know, theyll screw it up. Something, Ive tried to remember when dealing with authors of western outlaw history. Fortunately for me, I did not, nor do I intend to write a book. As a descendant of two members of Cassidys outlawry, I have every right to challenge your or any other version of events, when I find evidence contrary to what yourself and others have written, or said.
About thirty or more years before you ever heard of Butch Cassidy and Harry Longabaugh, I was listening to men retell their personal experiences and memories of Butch Cassidy, Harry Alonzo, The Wild Bunch, Jack Ryan, Ora Haley, Noah and Albert Reader, Jeff and Mike Dunbar, David Gillespie, Wilcox, Tipton, Winnemucca, etc., etc. I knew Tom Vernon, John Gooldy, David Gillespie, Ed Wren, etc. I knew a man, who not only was there, but participated. When Charles Kelly tried to interview him, he threw him out of the house, told Kelly, Ill never tell you what I know, if you ever come around again, Ill cut your lying tongue out. He once told me never tell a newspaper man or writer what you know, theyll screw it up. Something, Ive tried to remember when dealing with authors of western outlaw history. Fortunately for me, I did not, nor do I intend to write a book. As a descendant of two members of Cassidys outlawry, I have every right to challenge your or any other version of events, when I find evidence contrary to what yourself and others have written, or said.
Gaylen Robison | 4:37 p.m. April 19, 2009
Kid.
Would you please tell us what you know about Harry Alonzo Longabaugh? Some of us out here sure would thank you kindly if we knew more.
Thank you.
Would you please tell us what you know about Harry Alonzo Longabaugh? Some of us out here sure would thank you kindly if we knew more.
Thank you.
Daniel Buck | 5:31 p.m. April 19, 2009
Kid,
Challenge away, but don't pass up the opportunity to write up what you know. Share your knowledge, it's part of history.
Dan
Challenge away, but don't pass up the opportunity to write up what you know. Share your knowledge, it's part of history.
Dan
A C | 6:13 p.m. April 19, 2009
Mr. Kid:
My hat is off to you. You state what, more than likely, are facts, without running others down. A friend of mine, Mr. Harv Murdock (Grandson of Elza Lay) sounds a lot like you. Doesn't blow a lot of self promoting wind, just says what was.
Thank you. If you ever (which I don't think you will) write a book, pleasse let me know. I have a couple of so called "Western History" books I would like to trade in. A pleasure reading what you have to say. And I don't seem to hear you blowing your own horn. Don't quit now!
AC
My hat is off to you. You state what, more than likely, are facts, without running others down. A friend of mine, Mr. Harv Murdock (Grandson of Elza Lay) sounds a lot like you. Doesn't blow a lot of self promoting wind, just says what was.
Thank you. If you ever (which I don't think you will) write a book, pleasse let me know. I have a couple of so called "Western History" books I would like to trade in. A pleasure reading what you have to say. And I don't seem to hear you blowing your own horn. Don't quit now!
AC
Kid | 7:49 a.m. April 20, 2009
Dan,
My grandmother would rise from her grave and kick my rear end, if I ever wrote a book, Shes probably not very happy with me, as it is. Write a book no way, Im to old for fame and fortune, besides, most of the authors Ive talked to say, theres very little fortune to be made. If the fame includes defending your book for the rest of your life, no thanks. As for the historical aspect, historians will still be trying to sort out fact from fiction two hundred years from now. Its time for me to take a break, and let you people get back to Henry Long, Im plumb tuckered out trying to keep you in line Dan.
My grandmother would rise from her grave and kick my rear end, if I ever wrote a book, Shes probably not very happy with me, as it is. Write a book no way, Im to old for fame and fortune, besides, most of the authors Ive talked to say, theres very little fortune to be made. If the fame includes defending your book for the rest of your life, no thanks. As for the historical aspect, historians will still be trying to sort out fact from fiction two hundred years from now. Its time for me to take a break, and let you people get back to Henry Long, Im plumb tuckered out trying to keep you in line Dan.
Kid | 7:52 a.m. April 20, 2009
Gaylen Robison
Let me put it this way, Bert Charter and Harry Alonzo Longabaugh were close friends as early as 1893. Bert worked for Charlie Perkins at Dixon, he may have known Harry as early as the late 1880s. Their friendship. Documented.
Bert Charters step-father was quartermaster agent at Fort Duchesnse, Utah, 1893 to 1896. Documented.
Did Harry Alonzo accompany Bert when he visited his mother at Fort Duchesnse? At the very least, Bert knew or met Henry Long at Fort Duchesnse. Probable. Did Harry Alonzo become Henry Long at Fort Duchesnse? I guess the DNA will have to answer that question. No one ever mentioned the name Henry Long in association with Harry Alonzo in any conversation I can recall. Harry Alonzo Longabaugh, (seldom referred to as Longabaugh or the Sundance Kid), was extremely well liked by those who knew him. The old timers, said that after his visit with Bert in 1908, nothing was ever heard of Harry Alonzo again.
Sorry Gaylen, Thats about all I dare say without getting into the hearsay, double hearsay, and triple hearsay, business.
Let me put it this way, Bert Charter and Harry Alonzo Longabaugh were close friends as early as 1893. Bert worked for Charlie Perkins at Dixon, he may have known Harry as early as the late 1880s. Their friendship. Documented.
Bert Charters step-father was quartermaster agent at Fort Duchesnse, Utah, 1893 to 1896. Documented.
Did Harry Alonzo accompany Bert when he visited his mother at Fort Duchesnse? At the very least, Bert knew or met Henry Long at Fort Duchesnse. Probable. Did Harry Alonzo become Henry Long at Fort Duchesnse? I guess the DNA will have to answer that question. No one ever mentioned the name Henry Long in association with Harry Alonzo in any conversation I can recall. Harry Alonzo Longabaugh, (seldom referred to as Longabaugh or the Sundance Kid), was extremely well liked by those who knew him. The old timers, said that after his visit with Bert in 1908, nothing was ever heard of Harry Alonzo again.
Sorry Gaylen, Thats about all I dare say without getting into the hearsay, double hearsay, and triple hearsay, business.
Daniel Buck | 9:42 a.m. April 20, 2009
Kid,
I'm sorry I've tuckered you out. You are right that there's neither fame nor fortune at the end of most literary trails. There's an old joke in writing circles that the only books that sell are those about cats, sex, or Nazis, meaning that a sure-fire best seller would be The Sex Life of a Nazi Cat.
Nonetheless, you might consider something briefer than a book, for example, an article in the Journal of the Wild West History Association summarizing what you know. Most people, including myself, would read it with interest and appreciation.
Dan
I'm sorry I've tuckered you out. You are right that there's neither fame nor fortune at the end of most literary trails. There's an old joke in writing circles that the only books that sell are those about cats, sex, or Nazis, meaning that a sure-fire best seller would be The Sex Life of a Nazi Cat.
Nonetheless, you might consider something briefer than a book, for example, an article in the Journal of the Wild West History Association summarizing what you know. Most people, including myself, would read it with interest and appreciation.
Dan
TM | 9:43 a.m. April 20, 2009
Kid... For the sake of history... I implore you to please write down what you
know in a journal or simply a outline that included what you know to be true
followed by stories and then hear say for the sake of future researchers. I
don't know who you are or your age...but what you have shared has been very
good reading to date. Your information will be appreciated by those seeking
historical facts.
Curious | 8:33 a.m. April 21, 2009
What gives this Dan Buck the credentials to be known as the "Foremost
authority" on anything- Who is Dan Buck?
"Kid " seems to have more going for him than Mr. Buck.
"Kid " seems to have more going for him than Mr. Buck.
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