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Was Duchesne farmer the Sundance Kid?
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Sheri | 4:55 p.m. April 3, 2009
Awww...I did it again. I was the "anonymous" asking about Clyde
Snow.
Anonymous | 5:00 p.m. April 3, 2009
Dan Buck and Donna Ernst own the Longabaugh DNA, and, according to sources, they
refused to surrender it, for a DNA comparison.
Anonymous | 5:29 p.m. April 3, 2009
"Dan Buck and Donna Ernst own the Longabaugh DNA, and, according to
sources, they refused to surrender it, for a DNA comparison."
Oh Mr. Buck, is this a true statement? (I can't believe any historian would block another's attempt at learning a fact) Or is it something that was just "reportedly" said?
Jusr a noun
Oh Mr. Buck, is this a true statement? (I can't believe any historian would block another's attempt at learning a fact) Or is it something that was just "reportedly" said?
Jusr a noun
Comments continue below
Daniel Buck | 5:59 p.m. April 3, 2009
Sheri,
Not a problem. I don't recall who narrated the documentary; haven't looked at it in years, but the legend is that the first utterance by Snow on PBS of a certain word, Anglo Saxon in origen, rhyming with mitt, was near the end of that documentary.
Samuel Johnson excluded the word in his dictionary, but Jonathan Swift worked it in on more than one occasion.
By the by, the NOVA documentary was designed to show how a forensic anthropologist operates. Butch and Sundance were nothing more than the MacGuffin.
Cheers,
Dan
Dan
Not a problem. I don't recall who narrated the documentary; haven't looked at it in years, but the legend is that the first utterance by Snow on PBS of a certain word, Anglo Saxon in origen, rhyming with mitt, was near the end of that documentary.
Samuel Johnson excluded the word in his dictionary, but Jonathan Swift worked it in on more than one occasion.
By the by, the NOVA documentary was designed to show how a forensic anthropologist operates. Butch and Sundance were nothing more than the MacGuffin.
Cheers,
Dan
Dan
gordon | 6:04 p.m. April 3, 2009
I AM RELATED TO SUNDANCE---HIS GREAT GRANDFATHER CONRAD IS MY GREAT GREAT GREAT
GRANDFATHER----I DONATED MY DNA TO SHOW THAT BILL LONG WAS NOT SUNDANCE----BILL
LONG WAS PROBABLY SOME OTHER OUTLAW
Sheri | 6:50 a.m. April 4, 2009
Dan:
"I don't recall who narrated the documentary; haven't looked at it in years, but the legend is that the first utterance by Snow on PBS of a certain word, Anglo Saxon in origen, rhyming with mitt, was near the end of that documentary."
Yes, near the end, when the DNA results showed that the body exhumed was NOT Sundnace. And, if you say it was Clyde Snow that uttered it, then he was also the narrator of the show.
So, it was PBS that produced the documentary and presumably paid for all the DNA testing. In my knowledge of such matters, they own the test results. I can't imagine PBS or someone like Clyde Snow holding back the results for comparison to another legitimate possibility. On the other hand, I can see them being protective of those results, and unwilling to just hand them over without some measures in place to ensure that they weren't made public knowledge, leading to all kinds of claims of matches by various scam artists. Something to the effect of: "you send us the results of William Long, and we'll tell you if they match."
"I don't recall who narrated the documentary; haven't looked at it in years, but the legend is that the first utterance by Snow on PBS of a certain word, Anglo Saxon in origen, rhyming with mitt, was near the end of that documentary."
Yes, near the end, when the DNA results showed that the body exhumed was NOT Sundnace. And, if you say it was Clyde Snow that uttered it, then he was also the narrator of the show.
So, it was PBS that produced the documentary and presumably paid for all the DNA testing. In my knowledge of such matters, they own the test results. I can't imagine PBS or someone like Clyde Snow holding back the results for comparison to another legitimate possibility. On the other hand, I can see them being protective of those results, and unwilling to just hand them over without some measures in place to ensure that they weren't made public knowledge, leading to all kinds of claims of matches by various scam artists. Something to the effect of: "you send us the results of William Long, and we'll tell you if they match."
Ghosttown Bob | 7:21 a.m. April 4, 2009
Gordon, this is good news, now hopefully the testing results can proceed. A
couple of questions however. When did you donate your DNA?, just recently or a
while back? Was the DNA for Y-Chromosome testing? because Mt testing has to go
through a female line.
Ghosttown Bob | 7:38 a.m. April 4, 2009
I realize that members of the Parker/Betensen families want everyone to think
highly of Lula and others in the family that contributed stories of Butch and
the Wild Bunch. Experience has shown however that everyone is capable of having
a little "fun" with greenhorns or outsiders. Some of you have taken
great umbrage at the that Lula or others spreading family lore may have
exaggerated etc. a few things. On the other hand, I suspect that any of you
would not have a problem passing on the Jackalope story to an unsuspecting
Easterner, and would probably laugh around the campfire about how gullible some
people were.
My Grandfather was a very respected and honest man in North Cache Valley. He was honest in all of his dealings and everyone knew it. But he also belonged to what he called a "Liars Club" - a bunch of old guys hat sat around and made up stories, trying to out do each other. When it came to story time we all knew he could tell some whoppers and we always had a good laugh about it.
My Grandfather was a very respected and honest man in North Cache Valley. He was honest in all of his dealings and everyone knew it. But he also belonged to what he called a "Liars Club" - a bunch of old guys hat sat around and made up stories, trying to out do each other. When it came to story time we all knew he could tell some whoppers and we always had a good laugh about it.
Sheri | 9:54 a.m. April 4, 2009
"Gordon, this is good news, now hopefully the testing results can proceed.
A couple of questions however. When did you donate your DNA?, just recently or a
while back? Was the DNA for Y-Chromosome testing? because Mt testing has to go
through a female line."
Gordon shouted that: "I AM RELATED TO SUNDANCE---HIS GREAT GRANDFATHER CONRAD IS MY GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHER"
According to "Digging up Butch and Sundance", mtDNA was taken from O. Frazelle Edwards, who would have been the great-great-great-grandson of Sundance's great-grandfather through his mother's mother. His wife had at least two daughters; Sundance's grandmother and a sister. It was the sister whose descendant was able to provide the sample used to compare to Harvey Longabaugh's.
I would assume that Gordon is a brother or maternal cousin of Mr. Edwards.
Gordon shouted that: "I AM RELATED TO SUNDANCE---HIS GREAT GRANDFATHER CONRAD IS MY GREAT GREAT GREAT GRANDFATHER"
According to "Digging up Butch and Sundance", mtDNA was taken from O. Frazelle Edwards, who would have been the great-great-great-grandson of Sundance's great-grandfather through his mother's mother. His wife had at least two daughters; Sundance's grandmother and a sister. It was the sister whose descendant was able to provide the sample used to compare to Harvey Longabaugh's.
I would assume that Gordon is a brother or maternal cousin of Mr. Edwards.
Ghosttown Bob | 10:46 a.m. April 4, 2009
Sheri: Thank you for that clarification. It was not clear in Gordon's shout
out.
Daniel Buck | 11:43 a.m. April 4, 2009
Sheri,
Your observation about tampering with or switching DNA is on point. Theres also the question of mishandling, contamination, or misreading. A whole slew of evidentiary and scientific protocol issues present themselves, especially when somebody thinks that a match will lead to a payoff worth millions.
Second, your question about who owns the DNA from the 1993 NOVA documentary. It was broadcast in the United States on PBS, but as I understand it financed by other entities. A British production company produced the documentary. Who owns the evidence and other atifacts. Havent a clue. The only thing I own is a VHS copy of the program, which at the moment is lost in a ziggurat of equally dust-covered VHS tapes.
Cheers,
Dan
Your observation about tampering with or switching DNA is on point. Theres also the question of mishandling, contamination, or misreading. A whole slew of evidentiary and scientific protocol issues present themselves, especially when somebody thinks that a match will lead to a payoff worth millions.
Second, your question about who owns the DNA from the 1993 NOVA documentary. It was broadcast in the United States on PBS, but as I understand it financed by other entities. A British production company produced the documentary. Who owns the evidence and other atifacts. Havent a clue. The only thing I own is a VHS copy of the program, which at the moment is lost in a ziggurat of equally dust-covered VHS tapes.
Cheers,
Dan
Anonymous | 1:03 p.m. April 4, 2009
Bingo!!
Dans preparing to challenge a possible positive DNA result. First Dr. John McCullough. Next Sorenson Genomics.
Dans preparing to challenge a possible positive DNA result. First Dr. John McCullough. Next Sorenson Genomics.
A new anon | 4:03 p.m. April 4, 2009
All you negative people need to remember something Dan Buck said. Results have
nothing to do with being successful. We need to all give Mr. Nickle his dues.
ANA
ANA
Humor | 4:15 p.m. April 4, 2009
The only thing I own is a VHS copy of the program, which at the moment is lost
in a ziggurat of equally dust-covered VHS tapes.
Cheers,
Dan
For all the cowboys that don't carry a dictionary in their saddlebags: "ZIGGURAT", means "An ancient Assyrian or Babylonian temple tower in the form of a terraced pyramid". Dan, some of us would have been real impressed if you would have just said, pile or stack.
Laughter.
Cheers,
Dan
For all the cowboys that don't carry a dictionary in their saddlebags: "ZIGGURAT", means "An ancient Assyrian or Babylonian temple tower in the form of a terraced pyramid". Dan, some of us would have been real impressed if you would have just said, pile or stack.
Laughter.
Real Old Timer | 4:32 p.m. April 4, 2009
"the moment is lost in a ziggurat"
That is not all that is lost! I'm sorry. I have two dictionaries, neither one has a ziggurat. What in the world is Buck trying to prove? He apparently has a very big ziggurar or a bigger dictionary. We understand your desire to be looked too, but for crying out loud, get real, cut us dumb people a little slack. My wife is on her way to the bookstore. I told her to not come back unless you find some a book with a ziggurat in it.
ROT
That is not all that is lost! I'm sorry. I have two dictionaries, neither one has a ziggurat. What in the world is Buck trying to prove? He apparently has a very big ziggurar or a bigger dictionary. We understand your desire to be looked too, but for crying out loud, get real, cut us dumb people a little slack. My wife is on her way to the bookstore. I told her to not come back unless you find some a book with a ziggurat in it.
ROT
Anonymous | 4:39 p.m. April 4, 2009
Cheers,
Dan
Dan
I admit Dan, your ziggurat did give me a cheer. Made me laugh too. Thank you, we all need to laugh once in a while.
Dan
Dan
I admit Dan, your ziggurat did give me a cheer. Made me laugh too. Thank you, we all need to laugh once in a while.
Anonymous | 5:02 p.m. April 4, 2009
Thank you Humor, I was going crazy trying to find "the word". History
can have it's high points after all.
Real Old Timer | 5:39 p.m. April 4, 2009
If we are going to give (as we should) proper credit to our friend, Jerry
Nickle, then let us be fair. Credit is also due our other friend, Mr. Buck.
He may not know where Butch and Sundance are, but he certainly knows where to find fancy words. Right?
He is: "supercalafragelisticexpialadocious!"
Three "cheers" for Dan.
ROT
He may not know where Butch and Sundance are, but he certainly knows where to find fancy words. Right?
He is: "supercalafragelisticexpialadocious!"
Three "cheers" for Dan.
ROT
Anonymous | 7:39 p.m. April 4, 2009
Since Mr. Buck has chosen to lead us a bit astray, with his (knowledge?) of
words, perhaps he would honor us with his understanding of the word-----pompous.
gordon | 9:56 p.m. April 4, 2009
I did not mean to shout----do not know an Edwards---my great-great grandfather
was Samuel---brother to Jonas---my son who has studied genetics said I would be
1/16th to Sundance on DNA----I do not understand all this hassle---why not
compare Harveys DNA to Bill Longs DNA since it is all available and get this
over with?
Sheri | 5:57 a.m. April 5, 2009
"why not compare Harveys DNA to Bill Longs DNA since it is all available
and get this over with?"
Well, that's kind've been my question.
You don't have to do a direct comparison of the DNA...you just have to have the RESULTS of the previous DNA test. I think, anyway. My understanding of how mtDNA is tested is that a specific section of it is "cut" out, then sequenced. The result is a string of the letters "A" "T" "G" and "C". Once you have that, you can easily compare results to any other sample. If all the letters match, it's a positive result. It's just a matter of the parties that have documentation of Harvey's DNA sequence agreeing to compare them to the results of William Long's sample.
I could be wrong though. Maybe back in the early '90's they did the testing differently than they do now. Maybe they do need a new sample from a known Longabaugh relative. This blog doesn't seem to be the place to get that kind of information. Everyone appears to be speculating and passing on rumors.
Well, that's kind've been my question.
You don't have to do a direct comparison of the DNA...you just have to have the RESULTS of the previous DNA test. I think, anyway. My understanding of how mtDNA is tested is that a specific section of it is "cut" out, then sequenced. The result is a string of the letters "A" "T" "G" and "C". Once you have that, you can easily compare results to any other sample. If all the letters match, it's a positive result. It's just a matter of the parties that have documentation of Harvey's DNA sequence agreeing to compare them to the results of William Long's sample.
I could be wrong though. Maybe back in the early '90's they did the testing differently than they do now. Maybe they do need a new sample from a known Longabaugh relative. This blog doesn't seem to be the place to get that kind of information. Everyone appears to be speculating and passing on rumors.
Horse Creek Cowboy | 4:06 p.m. April 5, 2009
It is still below freezing, probably like the chill felt by Dan when he visits
this blog. Tomorrow it is supposed to get up into the forties and will turn the
corral into mud similar to that tossed about with so much glee on this site.
Some comments:
Family legends when told by our own ancestors are the gospel truth. When told by someone else's ancestors, such as Frank J. Dunleavy' report that Butch and Sundance were killed when Dunleavy was in Bolivia, or the reports from residents of Cholila, they have no credibility at all. In my own family, there is a legend about the origin of my great-grandfather's gold watch and chain. My brother put it in his account of our family history. My mother made me promise not to tell my brother that it was fiction. After my mother's death, my brother revealed he knew it all along. Family legnds make for great reading.
The idea that Sundance participated in the Wagner robbery probably results from the confusion in newspaper accounts of the arrest in St. Louis in November 1901 of an indiidual at first believed to be Sundance but was Ben Kilpatrick.
Some comments:
Family legends when told by our own ancestors are the gospel truth. When told by someone else's ancestors, such as Frank J. Dunleavy' report that Butch and Sundance were killed when Dunleavy was in Bolivia, or the reports from residents of Cholila, they have no credibility at all. In my own family, there is a legend about the origin of my great-grandfather's gold watch and chain. My brother put it in his account of our family history. My mother made me promise not to tell my brother that it was fiction. After my mother's death, my brother revealed he knew it all along. Family legnds make for great reading.
The idea that Sundance participated in the Wagner robbery probably results from the confusion in newspaper accounts of the arrest in St. Louis in November 1901 of an indiidual at first believed to be Sundance but was Ben Kilpatrick.
Horse Creek Cowboy | 5:25 p.m. April 5, 2009
More comments:
Someone asked about later sightings:
New York Times, 11-14-01 Harry Longbaugh arrested in St. Louis.
Salt Lake Herald-Republican, April 19, 1910, Butch robs S.P. Train.
Salt Lake Herald, June 27, 1905, Butch in Thistle Mountains.
Salt Lake Herald, August 14, 1907, Eugene Schmitz and Harry Orchard with Butch southeast of Bluff City.
New York Tribune, July 6, 1902, Butch and Harry Longbaugh rob Rock Island Railraod at Dupont.See also similar account Deseret Evening News, July 7, 1902.
Eastern Utah Advocate May 30, 1912. Whitney Brothers joining Harvey Logan, Butch Cassidy and Jim McCoud in South America.
San Francisco Call, Dec. 16, 1901. Man going by name of "Drees" arrested as Longbaugh.
Ogden Standard, Feb. 21, 1910. Butch, Harry Longbaugh, and Harvey Logan terrorizing Argentina.
New York Tribune, Butch Harry Longbaugh, Etta Place in Chile. Have been joined by Marvy Logan.
The most intriguing report, however, is one which suggests that two unidentified "Anglo-Saxon" bandits met with Dr. Hiram Bingham at La Quiaca, Argentina, at 9:00 p.m., November 15, 1908. La Quiaca is on the road from Topiza.
And the list can go on and on.
Someone asked about later sightings:
New York Times, 11-14-01 Harry Longbaugh arrested in St. Louis.
Salt Lake Herald-Republican, April 19, 1910, Butch robs S.P. Train.
Salt Lake Herald, June 27, 1905, Butch in Thistle Mountains.
Salt Lake Herald, August 14, 1907, Eugene Schmitz and Harry Orchard with Butch southeast of Bluff City.
New York Tribune, July 6, 1902, Butch and Harry Longbaugh rob Rock Island Railraod at Dupont.See also similar account Deseret Evening News, July 7, 1902.
Eastern Utah Advocate May 30, 1912. Whitney Brothers joining Harvey Logan, Butch Cassidy and Jim McCoud in South America.
San Francisco Call, Dec. 16, 1901. Man going by name of "Drees" arrested as Longbaugh.
Ogden Standard, Feb. 21, 1910. Butch, Harry Longbaugh, and Harvey Logan terrorizing Argentina.
New York Tribune, Butch Harry Longbaugh, Etta Place in Chile. Have been joined by Marvy Logan.
The most intriguing report, however, is one which suggests that two unidentified "Anglo-Saxon" bandits met with Dr. Hiram Bingham at La Quiaca, Argentina, at 9:00 p.m., November 15, 1908. La Quiaca is on the road from Topiza.
And the list can go on and on.
Daniel Buck | 3:58 a.m. April 6, 2009
HCC,
Indeed. The number of separate stories of their deaths between 1890s and the 1970s on three continents now exceeds 70.
Consider only the stories of their sightings and deaths posted the past several months on the DesertNews.com and KSL.com comment boards. The storytellers even confuse Butch with Sundance and vice versa. They have them dead in Utah, Nevada, and Washington. Butch is buried in Johnnie, Nevada; no, he's buried in Washington; no, he's buried near Circleville; no, he's buried in Circleville. His sister told me; the family told me; his neighbors told me. They escaped from the shootout in Bolivia; they never went to South America at all.
Butch died in 1937; no, Butch attended Matt Warner's funeral in 1938 and got a warning ticket in 1941; Sundance died in 1937; no, Sundance died in 1955. All these stories are true, in a manner of speaking, that is, they are believed to be true.
Dan
Indeed. The number of separate stories of their deaths between 1890s and the 1970s on three continents now exceeds 70.
Consider only the stories of their sightings and deaths posted the past several months on the DesertNews.com and KSL.com comment boards. The storytellers even confuse Butch with Sundance and vice versa. They have them dead in Utah, Nevada, and Washington. Butch is buried in Johnnie, Nevada; no, he's buried in Washington; no, he's buried near Circleville; no, he's buried in Circleville. His sister told me; the family told me; his neighbors told me. They escaped from the shootout in Bolivia; they never went to South America at all.
Butch died in 1937; no, Butch attended Matt Warner's funeral in 1938 and got a warning ticket in 1941; Sundance died in 1937; no, Sundance died in 1955. All these stories are true, in a manner of speaking, that is, they are believed to be true.
Dan
TM | 8:00 a.m. April 6, 2009
Horese Creek Cowboy. Enjoyed your latest posting and I am amazed at the info you
provided. I would like to know the sources; the last one is the very
interesting. Can you name the source for the visit to Dr. Bingham?
Mr. Buck my question for you is this. You state that that Santiago Lowe was registered approx. 10 days before their last robbery. By chance did you search for Mr. Lowe after November 6 or 7th staying at any other hotels in the area? This is not a challenge, just asking if you looked for Mr. Lowe after the date you believe they died.
Mr. Buck my question for you is this. You state that that Santiago Lowe was registered approx. 10 days before their last robbery. By chance did you search for Mr. Lowe after November 6 or 7th staying at any other hotels in the area? This is not a challenge, just asking if you looked for Mr. Lowe after the date you believe they died.
Horse Creek Cowboy | 9:07 a.m. April 6, 2009
TM:
Source for visit to Dr. Bingham:
Bingham, Hiram: Across South America, Houghton Mifflin Company, Boston and New York, 1911, Chapter VII, pp 81 and 82. Dr. Bingham was rather precise on his date and time.
In Chapter VIII at pp 91 and 92 he describes the death of two bandits two weeks before his arrival in Tupiza who had robbed a payroll. The description reminds one to some extent of the description in Elks Magazine. The conclusion that one must draw is that Dr. Bingham was either forgetful as to dates or that there were four bandits wandering about the area of Tupiza robbing payrolls.
The newspaper accounts were taken from the papers themselves.
I have not listed all of the accounts that I have found as to Ben Kilpatrick in St. Louis. The point is that Ben was positively identified by at least three witnesses as Sundance, two from the train at Wagner and the other the County prosecuting attorney from Sundance. And that constitutes the main problem. People make mistakes on identification. And that was Mr. Pinkerton's problem also, witness the dispute as to the identification of the body at Parachute. Still looking for Harvey.
Source for visit to Dr. Bingham:
Bingham, Hiram: Across South America, Houghton Mifflin Company, Boston and New York, 1911, Chapter VII, pp 81 and 82. Dr. Bingham was rather precise on his date and time.
In Chapter VIII at pp 91 and 92 he describes the death of two bandits two weeks before his arrival in Tupiza who had robbed a payroll. The description reminds one to some extent of the description in Elks Magazine. The conclusion that one must draw is that Dr. Bingham was either forgetful as to dates or that there were four bandits wandering about the area of Tupiza robbing payrolls.
The newspaper accounts were taken from the papers themselves.
I have not listed all of the accounts that I have found as to Ben Kilpatrick in St. Louis. The point is that Ben was positively identified by at least three witnesses as Sundance, two from the train at Wagner and the other the County prosecuting attorney from Sundance. And that constitutes the main problem. People make mistakes on identification. And that was Mr. Pinkerton's problem also, witness the dispute as to the identification of the body at Parachute. Still looking for Harvey.
Anonymous | 9:09 a.m. April 6, 2009
Discovery News: Archaeorama News: Not exactly Indiana Jones
Machu Picchu
Not that it really matters, but there is no evidence that A.R. Berns, the subject of a spate of hyper-ventilating media stores in June last, ever visited Machu Picchu in the 1880s. Dan Buck.
Dan Buck "quite clearly" heard me say something that I did not say, it is no wonder that he thinks my historical evidence is "ludicrous". Paolo Greer.
What Greer has "put together" is the notion that when Berns named his company Huacas del Inca he must have meant Machu Picchu, But that is speculation, not evidence. Dan Buck.
Best Hobby of a Local Politician's Aide:
Chasing Butch Cassidy, Dan Buck, of Pat Schroeder's office.
Machu Picchu
Not that it really matters, but there is no evidence that A.R. Berns, the subject of a spate of hyper-ventilating media stores in June last, ever visited Machu Picchu in the 1880s. Dan Buck.
Dan Buck "quite clearly" heard me say something that I did not say, it is no wonder that he thinks my historical evidence is "ludicrous". Paolo Greer.
What Greer has "put together" is the notion that when Berns named his company Huacas del Inca he must have meant Machu Picchu, But that is speculation, not evidence. Dan Buck.
Best Hobby of a Local Politician's Aide:
Chasing Butch Cassidy, Dan Buck, of Pat Schroeder's office.
Anonymous | 9:44 a.m. April 6, 2009
Jerry Nickle, and Paolo Greer have a great deal in common, Mr. Daniel Buck.
Nickle, Sundance and Greer, Hiram Bingham's Machu Picchu.
Take a peek at the Discovery News: Archaeorama News: Not exactly Indiana Jones blog.
Nickle, Sundance and Greer, Hiram Bingham's Machu Picchu.
Take a peek at the Discovery News: Archaeorama News: Not exactly Indiana Jones blog.
TM | 9:58 a.m. April 6, 2009
Horse Creek Cowboy. Thank you for the comfirmation. I googled: "Dr. Hiram
Bingham, Argentina" and was able to read a great deal of his "Across
South America". I did also read Chapter VII and his encounter with two
American Highwaymen. From this account dated November 15, 1908. It does come
across as a possible conversation with Cassidy in tone and by what he Bingham
says he was told in this encounter. Taking this into acount with the later
discription of the highwaymen later reported killed..they being part of several
American bandits.."a score or more" in the area. That actually to me
sounds like a smaller working Wild Bunch led by a planner and lead bandit such
as Cassidy. Granted the presence of Sundance is not at all known for sure from
either of these reports...unless Sundance was pulling his own jobs and possibly
envolved in the shootout that was discribed. Again without clear identifications
and variations of the story it is very hard to know the truth. But
Bingham's first encounter to me sounds like he could have spoken to
Cassidy.
TM | 10:15 a.m. April 6, 2009
Horse Creek Cowboy, Thank you for the confirmation. After reading your post I
googled "Dr. Hiram Bingham. Argentina" and found his "Across
South America". I was able to read a great deal and found his Chapter VII
encounter with two Americans on Nov. 15, 1908 very interesting. The
"tone" and details of their conversation gave me the impression that
he indeed was speaking with Cassidy. Your reference to the later story he was
told about two bandits killed and the promise to avenge by a "score or
more" of other bandits sounds like they may have been part of a smaller
Wild Bunch if you will. This to me caused me to wonder if Cassidy was not in
charge of a group of bandits hitting various mine payrolls in Bolivia. Since
Sundance is not identified..it could be that this smaller wild bunch was like
the old and that various groups would take on independent robberies. Until
Sundance's bones are found in Bolivia or the US we won't know for sure
where he died. But I do like this report as to the possibility that Cassidy was
not one of the bandits killed earlier that month.
TM | 10:24 a.m. April 6, 2009
Mr. Buck, what is your take on this report by Dr. Bingham? Again..not a
challenge. I simply would like to know how you interrupted this report by
someone that has to be consider a highly reliable source. Did you consider the
encounter Dr. Bingham had on November 15th as a possible encounter with
Cassidy?
Your resonse would be appreciated. Thanks. TM
Your resonse would be appreciated. Thanks. TM
Anonymous | 1:19 p.m. April 6, 2009
"So even if Berns visited the site in 1887 -- and there's no evidence
that he did -- he's at the tail end of a long line that stretches back to
the 1500s.
Dan Buck
Posted by: Daniel Buck | July 25, 2008 at 07:53 AM"
For those of you that are interested in the ruins of MACHU PICCHU: we are again blessed by the expert at pointing out the incorrectness of others. Is there no end?
Dan Buck
Posted by: Daniel Buck | July 25, 2008 at 07:53 AM"
For those of you that are interested in the ruins of MACHU PICCHU: we are again blessed by the expert at pointing out the incorrectness of others. Is there no end?
Daniel Buck | 4:26 a.m. April 7, 2009
HCC & TM,
Almost 20 years ago, soon after we stumbled upon Hiram Bingham's account, we wrote it up in a several-thousand word article, "The Aramayo Mule," South American Explorer, February 1988, with a follow-up emendation, "Mule Never Know," in the May 1988 issue. The incident is also discussed in Meadows (2003), pp. 130-32.
In 1988, when our research was still in the early stages -- we had not yet compiled much evidence that Butch and Sundance died in San Vicente -- we speculated that the two men Bingham met might have been any number of people, including Butch or Sundance. Later we concluded that the Butch and Sundance angle was not likely.
Also, TM, we did search subsequent issues of El Chorolque for any mention of Santiago Lowe's name, without success. See Meadows (2003), p. 364.
Dan
Almost 20 years ago, soon after we stumbled upon Hiram Bingham's account, we wrote it up in a several-thousand word article, "The Aramayo Mule," South American Explorer, February 1988, with a follow-up emendation, "Mule Never Know," in the May 1988 issue. The incident is also discussed in Meadows (2003), pp. 130-32.
In 1988, when our research was still in the early stages -- we had not yet compiled much evidence that Butch and Sundance died in San Vicente -- we speculated that the two men Bingham met might have been any number of people, including Butch or Sundance. Later we concluded that the Butch and Sundance angle was not likely.
Also, TM, we did search subsequent issues of El Chorolque for any mention of Santiago Lowe's name, without success. See Meadows (2003), p. 364.
Dan
Kid | 7:51 a.m. April 7, 2009
May 26, 1908.
You might be interested in knowing that Butch Cassidys partner, alias Johnson, is back here on Snake River
Who was alias Johnson?
You might be interested in knowing that Butch Cassidys partner, alias Johnson, is back here on Snake River
Who was alias Johnson?
Horse Creek Cowboy | 8:58 a.m. April 7, 2009
Ghost Town Bob,
Kindly tell us about the two alleged prior disinterments of poor old Bill Long, the alleged previous DNA tests, and the alleged bullet hole in his skull.
From Ambrose Bierce's Devil's Dictionary. Ambrose disappeared into Latin America in 1914 and is possibly still alive living with Etta Place in the Sierra Madres:
HISTORIAN, n.
A broad-gauge gossip.
HISTORY, n.
An account mostly false, of events mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers mostly knaves, and soldiers mostly fools.
Of Roman history, great Niebuhr's shown
'Tis nine-tenths lying. Faith, I wish 'twere known,
Ere we accept great Niebuhr as a guide,
Wherein he blundered and how much he lied.
Salder Bupp
Kindly tell us about the two alleged prior disinterments of poor old Bill Long, the alleged previous DNA tests, and the alleged bullet hole in his skull.
From Ambrose Bierce's Devil's Dictionary. Ambrose disappeared into Latin America in 1914 and is possibly still alive living with Etta Place in the Sierra Madres:
HISTORIAN, n.
A broad-gauge gossip.
HISTORY, n.
An account mostly false, of events mostly unimportant, which are brought about by rulers mostly knaves, and soldiers mostly fools.
Of Roman history, great Niebuhr's shown
'Tis nine-tenths lying. Faith, I wish 'twere known,
Ere we accept great Niebuhr as a guide,
Wherein he blundered and how much he lied.
Salder Bupp
Horse creek cowboy | 10:41 a.m. April 7, 2009
Kid,
Are you thinking of Pat Johnson who killed Willie Stang?
Are you thinking of Pat Johnson who killed Willie Stang?
Ghosttown Bob | 11:35 a.m. April 7, 2009
HCC: The alleged disinterments and DNA testing have been pretty well outlined in
the two Deseret News Articles and the KSL news article and broadcast of March
24th, along with the hole in the skull. To reiterate, here is a summary:
Ghossttown Bob | 11:39 a.m. April 7, 2009
From the Deseret News Dec 16, 2008: "Long's skull and a femur were dug
up several years ago by another relative, according to family members involved
in the most recent exhumation. The individual had a rectangular piece of bone
cut from the femur, apparently to conduct DNA tests. The results of those tests
are unknown.
In November 2007, Long's remains including the skull and femur were reburied in the original grave site. The bones were placed in a vault."
Then again on Dec 14th 2008, Dr. McCullough of the U of U directed a further exhumation. Each time bones were removed for DNA sampling. From the 2007 dig, a Y-Chromosome test was done and found inconclusive (negative). The official family stance was that there was not enough DNA for a proper test (Bambi Nickle Reed). So they have since been trying to track down Harry Longabaugh mother's female relatives for a mitochondrial DNA test. That proved futile, so they dug him up again in December for more Y or Mt-DNA. Now as the article states, they are back to the mitochondrial DNA route.
In November 2007, Long's remains including the skull and femur were reburied in the original grave site. The bones were placed in a vault."
Then again on Dec 14th 2008, Dr. McCullough of the U of U directed a further exhumation. Each time bones were removed for DNA sampling. From the 2007 dig, a Y-Chromosome test was done and found inconclusive (negative). The official family stance was that there was not enough DNA for a proper test (Bambi Nickle Reed). So they have since been trying to track down Harry Longabaugh mother's female relatives for a mitochondrial DNA test. That proved futile, so they dug him up again in December for more Y or Mt-DNA. Now as the article states, they are back to the mitochondrial DNA route.
Ghosttown Bob | 1:12 p.m. April 7, 2009
HCC: This leads us back to Sheri's question "why not compare Harveys
DNA to Bill Longs DNA since it is all available and get this over with?" If
the family is going the Mt route and have Bill Longs Mt it should be simple
enough to get the results. They should all be on one the FT-DNA database. Any
submission to the FT-DNA database should come back with relatives/matches.
If they are trying for Y-Chromosome matches and got Y-Chromosome DNA from Bill then there is already a Longabaugh sample in the FT-DNA database and it should match if they are related even if it isn't Harvey's DNA.
So why the long wait?????
If they are trying for Y-Chromosome matches and got Y-Chromosome DNA from Bill then there is already a Longabaugh sample in the FT-DNA database and it should match if they are related even if it isn't Harvey's DNA.
So why the long wait?????
Anonymous | 8:00 a.m. April 9, 2009
Where did the Dan Buck groupie go?
Horse Creek Cowboy | 8:16 a.m. April 10, 2009
In answer to the question of why the long wait. I hate to be cynical but it
would appear that the newspaper articles, tv spots, etc. are a run-up to the
release of a book or TV "documentary" in which all will be revealed,
similar to the run-up to the release of the movie Hildago and the stories of
Frank T. Hopkins, or the run-up to Berns' "alleged" discovery of
Machu Picchu. To sum up:
We have learned:
It is not necessary to rely on "primary sources." So all these years, I have been wasting my time. One does not need to go to South America to find whether Butch or Sundance were there or whether they made an application for a brand in 1901 or opened an account in the River Platte Bank the same year since those that discovered such items were obvious forgers.
There is still virulent "anti-Mormonism" in the world. (I am not Mormon)
Dan has horns, tail, and cloven hooves.
We have learned:
It is not necessary to rely on "primary sources." So all these years, I have been wasting my time. One does not need to go to South America to find whether Butch or Sundance were there or whether they made an application for a brand in 1901 or opened an account in the River Platte Bank the same year since those that discovered such items were obvious forgers.
There is still virulent "anti-Mormonism" in the world. (I am not Mormon)
Dan has horns, tail, and cloven hooves.
Ghosttown Bob | 9:44 a.m. April 10, 2009
HCC: Dan's not a Mormon either, it must be an "anti-non Mormon,"
us versus them thing.
Jerry Nickle | 6:34 p.m. April 10, 2009
The best primary source is Charles Siringo. He was there. His memoirs clearly
show Butch was in New Mexico in early 1901 not in New York City, as Dan Buck has
written on his page 37.
Why did Buck only mention Siringo once and this one time he misstated what is written. On page 34 Buck states Siringo discovered the Wilcox burnt loot was passed in Colorado, Montana and New Mexico. Siringo never discovered any of the burnt loot was passed in Colorado. Siringo discovered the loot was passed in Utah, Montanna, New Mexico.
Why did Buck only mention Siringo once and this one time he misstated what is written. On page 34 Buck states Siringo discovered the Wilcox burnt loot was passed in Colorado, Montana and New Mexico. Siringo never discovered any of the burnt loot was passed in Colorado. Siringo discovered the loot was passed in Utah, Montanna, New Mexico.
Jerry Nickle | 6:36 p.m. April 10, 2009
Buck also states S&E visited the hospital in Buffalo New York probably Jan
or Feb 1901. As his source he uses the Pinkerton memo dated April 3, 1902.
This Pinkerton memo does not say they visited the hospital in Jan or Feb 1901.
A person would not know that if he depended on Dan Buck. Using all of the
sources a person can determine that visit happened in May 1901 as the Pinkerton
memo indicates. (Summer 1901). This shows Sundance was not in Argentina when
Buck says he was. If Buck is going to use a certain Pinkerton memo as a source
he should quote that memo accurately.
Jerry Nickle | 6:37 p.m. April 10, 2009
Buck does the same thing with the memo that mentions S&E leaving New York
City for Buenos Aires on Feb 20, 1901. He states BS&E were in New York
City on Feb 1, 1901 where the three of them checked into Mrs. Taylors boarding
house. That memo does not say that. Butch could not have been there because he
was in New Mexico. The memo says BS&E checked into Mrs. Taylors boarding
house but that would have been Feb 1902. Using this memo Buck also says the
three of them left New York for Buenos Aires Feb 20, 1901. The memo does not say
that either. If Buck is going to quote a certain Pinkerton memo, is it too much
to ask he quote it as written?
Jerry Nickle | 6:46 p.m. April 10, 2009
Are we to take Bucks word that a receipt exists showing Butch purchased a gold
watch for Etta in Feb 1901? I will produce the documents I refer to, why cant
Buck?
Jerry Nickle | 1:16 a.m. April 11, 2009
Here is a perfect example of you and Dan Buck do.
Ghost Town Bob writes:
It is not necessary to rely on "primary sources." So all these years, I have been wasting my time. One does not need to go to South America to find whether Butch or Sundance were there or whether they made an application for a brand in 1901 or opened an account in the River Platte Bank the same year since those that discovered such items were obvious forgers.
The primary source for the River Platt Bank account is the Dimio report, which you use to find this information. You just wrote Butch and Sundance opened an account in the River Platt Bank. Read that report again. Butch was not there when Sundance opened the account and you said he was.
This is what Buck has done with the other reports as well.
If you or Buck are going to quote the Pinkerton files quote them accurately.
Ghost Town Bob writes:
It is not necessary to rely on "primary sources." So all these years, I have been wasting my time. One does not need to go to South America to find whether Butch or Sundance were there or whether they made an application for a brand in 1901 or opened an account in the River Platte Bank the same year since those that discovered such items were obvious forgers.
The primary source for the River Platt Bank account is the Dimio report, which you use to find this information. You just wrote Butch and Sundance opened an account in the River Platt Bank. Read that report again. Butch was not there when Sundance opened the account and you said he was.
This is what Buck has done with the other reports as well.
If you or Buck are going to quote the Pinkerton files quote them accurately.
Ghosttown Bob | 3:50 p.m. April 11, 2009
Jerry Wrote: "The best primary source is Charles Siringo. He was there. His
memoirs clearly show Butch was in New Mexico in early 1901 not in New York City,
as Dan Buck has written on his page 37."
1. The book Digging Up Butch and Sundance was written by Anne Meadows. I don't think Dan Buck has ever said he was a ghost writer for the book.
2. Siringo's account conflicts with William French's account and memoirs. French never claimed that Jim Lowe (Butch) owned, ran, or bartended a Saloon in Alma. He never mentioned the alleged saloon and near hanging of Murray after the Wilcox robbery. Only that when shown a picture of Cassidy, he identified him, and that Jim Lowe left the area shortly after.
3. Charles A. Gianni May 1933 True West mag. claims Cassidy never ran a saloon in Alma and uses M. E. Coates, Bob Lewis, and Calrence E. Tipton as sources.
1. The book Digging Up Butch and Sundance was written by Anne Meadows. I don't think Dan Buck has ever said he was a ghost writer for the book.
2. Siringo's account conflicts with William French's account and memoirs. French never claimed that Jim Lowe (Butch) owned, ran, or bartended a Saloon in Alma. He never mentioned the alleged saloon and near hanging of Murray after the Wilcox robbery. Only that when shown a picture of Cassidy, he identified him, and that Jim Lowe left the area shortly after.
3. Charles A. Gianni May 1933 True West mag. claims Cassidy never ran a saloon in Alma and uses M. E. Coates, Bob Lewis, and Calrence E. Tipton as sources.
Ghosttown Bob | 3:55 p.m. April 11, 2009
Gianni also says of the near hanging of the Pinkerton opperative that Siringo
claims Jim Lowe through the goodness of his heart prevented: "It originated
in the brain of some one far from the scene where it was supposed to have
occurred. This story is laughed at in the Frisco Valley."
Ghosttown Bob | 4:05 p.m. April 11, 2009
No, Siringo cannot be considered a reliable source. Most of what he relates
about Alma seems to have come from Blake Graham, whom Siringo claims to have
shared a stagecoach with for a time. He heard only rumors (Graham and an old
cowboy) that Lowe was still around the area in 1901, but he then did not follow
up on them and confirm whether they were true or not. He then blamed Murray for
sending him north rather than staying around Alma longer.
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