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FLDS seek recognition
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Anonymous | 5:30 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009
I hope they get recognized in texas. For what they are, keepers of a religious
prison. And treated accordingly.
RUKIDDING | 6:28 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009
You build a wall around your community, and guard it with guys with guns on 4
wheelers so nobody comes in or out. You provide no education on basic societal
living skills like how or when to vote. You break multiple laws and moral
principles held by the general society. You don't even teach people how to
manage their own money, and use gathered money for the good of everyone equally.
And you wonder why you are not feeling well represented and dont'
understand where your money is going??? Seriously???
If you choose the action, you have to deal with the consequences!
If you choose the action, you have to deal with the consequences!
Beefy | 7:19 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009
FLDS are really a messed up group of people. They need some kind of mental
counsel.
Comments continue below
They Lied | 7:27 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009
They purchased to property for a "hunting retreat." Now it houses law
breakers.
re: RUKIDDING | 8:09 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009
Another prejudiced person who has never been to the ranch, and probably never
met anyone from there. Where's the wall you're talking about. Where
are the guns? Do you know what you're talking about? Obviously not.
Diesel | 8:39 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009
Re: RUKIDDING
Yes, the state authorities found some hunting rifles and here is the funny part; they left them there when they were done with the raid! Oh, and yeah. . . there is a huge schoolhouse on the Ranch I wonder what it's used for? Maybe the name will give you a hint. If they didn't know how to manage money they wouldn't be able to pay millions and millions to lawyers and still survive and pay $500,000 in property taxes.
Yes, the state authorities found some hunting rifles and here is the funny part; they left them there when they were done with the raid! Oh, and yeah. . . there is a huge schoolhouse on the Ranch I wonder what it's used for? Maybe the name will give you a hint. If they didn't know how to manage money they wouldn't be able to pay millions and millions to lawyers and still survive and pay $500,000 in property taxes.
Anonymous | 8:46 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009
The FLDS moved to Eldorado because of the lack of builing codes and in hopes of
finding a place where they could conduct their illegal activities without being
noticed. They, as usual, lied to the community about what their intentions were
when they said they were building a hunting retreat. Instead they housed a
federal fugitive and performed arranged marriages of little girls to the
religious upper crust. Now Willie is claiming that it's not fair that they
should have to contribute tovthose that serve the citizens of the county. Maybe
the commissioners should give a break to drug runners in the county as well. Why
should they have to fund the people who may eventually arrest them. Perhaps the
commissioners should have an open door policy for prostitutes and meth
manufacturers as well. I mean, it's only fair. We want to make sure their
not under represented as well. Taxation withour representation? The FLDS chose
TX in the hopes of not getting caught and they got caught. They've got
nothing coming.
Public Relations | 9:48 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009
I think the FLDS are in desperate need of some good public relations, here are a
few suggestions:
Have the girls go college before getting married.
Join the Omish they are also fundamentalist, but with a good rep.
No more pics of 40 year old men making out with 12 year girls (skin crawl)
Sever all ties with those involved with minor marrages.
Have the girls go college before getting married.
Join the Omish they are also fundamentalist, but with a good rep.
No more pics of 40 year old men making out with 12 year girls (skin crawl)
Sever all ties with those involved with minor marrages.
Joey | 9:51 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009
Willie's fighting a losing battle. Warren Jeffs would tell the people to
flip 'em the bird and get out of the state. Why put up with a bunch of red
necks like that? Answer them nothing, and move on.
Casting pearls before swine is what it is.
Casting pearls before swine is what it is.
mike | 9:58 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009
What a bunch of lies on here! You Flds guys can't even tell the truth no
matter what!
What Texas should hold out for | 10:39 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009
If Texas is going to give full representation to the FLDS, I urge them at a
minimum to insist that they don't kick fathers out of their homes, nor
young boys out of their homes either. Texas already ensures they don't
force under age women to marry.
If the FLDS refuse to take these steps, I urge Texas to refuse to give the FLDS any more representation on juries etc, unless they swear they are not practicing polygamy.
Now is not the time to knuckle under to these groups unless they agree to reform themself to start acting as decent people or decent citizens.
If the FLDS refuse to take these steps, I urge Texas to refuse to give the FLDS any more representation on juries etc, unless they swear they are not practicing polygamy.
Now is not the time to knuckle under to these groups unless they agree to reform themself to start acting as decent people or decent citizens.
x | 11:35 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009
Re: What Texas should hold out for
I bet if you lived in texas, which you may or may not, and the county or state raised your property taxes, you would be the first to be yelling about it. Its amazing that people will point the finger at people who want to practice polygamy and practice their religion, that have done nothing wrong when it comes to paying their taxes. Why do people think that the FLDS just showed up one day and built their holy church and houses with out permits from the county they live in? A lot of states would be rich, if every state raised the taxes on all the groups or organizations that were hated the most. I think the FLDS are entitled to the same representation that every other American citizen is allowed. Hmm, everyone wants the FLDS men to live up the the American justice book, but tell the FLDS people, sorry you shouldn't be entitled to any representation because of your religion or how you live your life. We are all American citizens, are we not?
I bet if you lived in texas, which you may or may not, and the county or state raised your property taxes, you would be the first to be yelling about it. Its amazing that people will point the finger at people who want to practice polygamy and practice their religion, that have done nothing wrong when it comes to paying their taxes. Why do people think that the FLDS just showed up one day and built their holy church and houses with out permits from the county they live in? A lot of states would be rich, if every state raised the taxes on all the groups or organizations that were hated the most. I think the FLDS are entitled to the same representation that every other American citizen is allowed. Hmm, everyone wants the FLDS men to live up the the American justice book, but tell the FLDS people, sorry you shouldn't be entitled to any representation because of your religion or how you live your life. We are all American citizens, are we not?
re x | 11:35 p.m. | 12:27 a.m. Jan. 13, 2009
I live in Utah, I don't hate FLDS. I hate the way their leaders abuse
their people. Society doesn't allow Jehovas Witness parents to deny a
blood transfusion or medical care to a child, or allow a moslem to honor kill
their daughter. That is their religion, but religion has its allowable
limits.
Why should society look the other way when your leaders kick young boys out of their house to fend for themselves, or to kick fathers out of their homes because they offended the "prophet". Or to allow a father to beat his daughter because she doesn't want to marry an older polygamous man?
If I hated you and your people, I wouldn't care about the abuse that was going on.
Why should society look the other way when your leaders kick young boys out of their house to fend for themselves, or to kick fathers out of their homes because they offended the "prophet". Or to allow a father to beat his daughter because she doesn't want to marry an older polygamous man?
If I hated you and your people, I wouldn't care about the abuse that was going on.
Anonymous | 1:45 a.m. Jan. 13, 2009
This is part of the FLDS game..
1. First, dont participate in any civics. Close yourself off. Dont cooperate with anyone from the outside..
2. Now, its time to pay taxes.. and cry cry cry.. and Say no one loves you. No one cares about you.. Nobody understands you.. No one will talk to you..
its the same thing here in st. George..
They alway claim people are so mean to them, but try going out their Cult land town, see how welcome they are or have always have been. They hate outsiders..
These people our fouled up in every sense of the word.
They are homely, dirty, uneducated, dark spirited. people. Just visit the Washington Walmart on any evening, try to have a conversation with a FLDS woman.. It aint happening!
You will see the deer in the headlights look.
I dont want to be mean, but its true.. Its really really sad to raise any child with this sort of isolation.
1. First, dont participate in any civics. Close yourself off. Dont cooperate with anyone from the outside..
2. Now, its time to pay taxes.. and cry cry cry.. and Say no one loves you. No one cares about you.. Nobody understands you.. No one will talk to you..
its the same thing here in st. George..
They alway claim people are so mean to them, but try going out their Cult land town, see how welcome they are or have always have been. They hate outsiders..
These people our fouled up in every sense of the word.
They are homely, dirty, uneducated, dark spirited. people. Just visit the Washington Walmart on any evening, try to have a conversation with a FLDS woman.. It aint happening!
You will see the deer in the headlights look.
I dont want to be mean, but its true.. Its really really sad to raise any child with this sort of isolation.
Re: building codes | 4:55 a.m. Jan. 13, 2009
Anonymous | 8:46 p.m. Jan. 12, 2009
"The FLDS moved to Eldorado because of the lack of builing codes..."
----------
Have you even seen pictures of what they built? It's quite impressive.
"The FLDS moved to Eldorado because of the lack of builing codes..."
----------
Have you even seen pictures of what they built? It's quite impressive.
re: Re: building codes | 9:33 a.m. Jan. 13, 2009
Do you mean the gigantic limestone church? I have nothing against the FLDS so,
while the structure is tacky as all-get-out, I'll agree it's also
defiinitely impressive looking.
realitycheck | 10:00 a.m. Jan. 13, 2009
the problem with the FLDS is they impose their religious views onto others. And
no - I don't mean us - I mean their children. And impose is the wrong
word. Force is a better choice of word.
I don't think anyone would have a problem with the FLDS if they lived amongst us and allowed their children to see other views and cultures. But by isolating the children, they are able to "impose" their religious views and practices in a clean-room environment. Which means the children know of no other way. This removes free will and opportunity, and ensures their practices are viewed as normal by the children as they grow up.
I understand you FLDS firmly believe in seer stones and that God requires men to have multiple wives. Whether we believe it is irrelevant (as it should be). But by isolating your children (although I understand you are trying to "protect them from the evils of the world") you are in fact forcing them into your beliefs and removing their ability to make decisions concerning their lives.
I strongly suggest you choose. Either stop practicing polygamy, or allow your children access to other views, beliefs, and cultures.
I don't think anyone would have a problem with the FLDS if they lived amongst us and allowed their children to see other views and cultures. But by isolating the children, they are able to "impose" their religious views and practices in a clean-room environment. Which means the children know of no other way. This removes free will and opportunity, and ensures their practices are viewed as normal by the children as they grow up.
I understand you FLDS firmly believe in seer stones and that God requires men to have multiple wives. Whether we believe it is irrelevant (as it should be). But by isolating your children (although I understand you are trying to "protect them from the evils of the world") you are in fact forcing them into your beliefs and removing their ability to make decisions concerning their lives.
I strongly suggest you choose. Either stop practicing polygamy, or allow your children access to other views, beliefs, and cultures.
Joey | 10:03 a.m. Jan. 13, 2009
Just to spoil some myths, but has there been any evidence out of the whole YFZ
Raid fiasco to show that fathers "beat their daughters" if they
won't marry an older man?
Nope. Even CPS' official and biased report reports that there was zero evidence of physical abuse. 9 out of 10 underage (17 and younger) girls were not married, so that spoils another myth that they marry them off by 14.
Nope. Even CPS' official and biased report reports that there was zero evidence of physical abuse. 9 out of 10 underage (17 and younger) girls were not married, so that spoils another myth that they marry them off by 14.
realitycheck | 10:38 a.m. Jan. 13, 2009
re Joey 10:03am
The fathers don't have to beat their daughters to get them to marry an older man. They have been train and indoctrinated in isolation to do exactly that since the day they were born. Everyone they know and interact with tells them the exact same thing. Marry the man chosen for you and pump out as many children as possible and you will go to heaven.
That's abuse. You might not think so, but it is. Just the isolation is abuse. Throw in the beliefs and practices and you've got severe abuse.
What are the FLDS afraid of? Why do they insist on isolating their followers? They will tell you it is to protect them from the "evils of the world". This is not true. The fact is, they isolate their people because they know that if the people understood the opportunities and choices available in the real world, they would lose followers right and left.
There are polygamists everywhere. Every major city has some. No one cares about them. But when you isolate your people and remove free will, that's when we step in. Get used to it - we're not going away...
The fathers don't have to beat their daughters to get them to marry an older man. They have been train and indoctrinated in isolation to do exactly that since the day they were born. Everyone they know and interact with tells them the exact same thing. Marry the man chosen for you and pump out as many children as possible and you will go to heaven.
That's abuse. You might not think so, but it is. Just the isolation is abuse. Throw in the beliefs and practices and you've got severe abuse.
What are the FLDS afraid of? Why do they insist on isolating their followers? They will tell you it is to protect them from the "evils of the world". This is not true. The fact is, they isolate their people because they know that if the people understood the opportunities and choices available in the real world, they would lose followers right and left.
There are polygamists everywhere. Every major city has some. No one cares about them. But when you isolate your people and remove free will, that's when we step in. Get used to it - we're not going away...
Re: Realitycheck | 4:05 p.m. Jan. 13, 2009
The Isolation is not a result of wanting to brainwash followers. Polygamists
Isolated themselves in the 1880s when the govt, under their own admision, made
the anti-polygamy laws to specifically target the mormon church. Mormons
practiced plural marriage in secrecy untill the 1930s, when the church changed
its stance and began excomunicating polygamists. Pipe Springs, a monument south
of short creek, is where lds, not flds, hid extra wives after the manifesto.
The Anti-polygamy laws were unconstitutional back then, and they are
unconstitutional today. Laws cannot be made in order to discriminate against
religious groups.
Like mormon church under its first three profits, these people will not stop practicing plural marriage just because it is unpopular. The only way to end the abuse is to legalize polygamy. If the marriages were legal, minors would not be involved in them, and the women would be unable to file for wellfare as single mothers, saving us all money. Polygamists could then rejoin society and people would come to realize their choices over time. Too much damage has been doon over the last century plus to ever have a quick fix. Future raids will only drive polygamy farther underground into secrecy.
Like mormon church under its first three profits, these people will not stop practicing plural marriage just because it is unpopular. The only way to end the abuse is to legalize polygamy. If the marriages were legal, minors would not be involved in them, and the women would be unable to file for wellfare as single mothers, saving us all money. Polygamists could then rejoin society and people would come to realize their choices over time. Too much damage has been doon over the last century plus to ever have a quick fix. Future raids will only drive polygamy farther underground into secrecy.
U need more Education | 4:17 p.m. Jan. 13, 2009
First the girls are sealed, not married, which is similar to a betrothal.
Everyone (including you) indoctrinates their own children with their belief systems. So call it force if you want to, but turn the mirror on yourself.
We prosecute them under the law and under the law, no crime has yet to be proven.
The law says innocent until proven guilty---not just get a rope! Or maybe you prefer to live in a society where there are no trials--because basically that what most of you are suggesting. Anybody can allege anything, the media grows to an uproar and we will just skip the adjudication process and have a public lynching despite the truth or hell- without ever questioning anything.
Everyone (including you) indoctrinates their own children with their belief systems. So call it force if you want to, but turn the mirror on yourself.
We prosecute them under the law and under the law, no crime has yet to be proven.
The law says innocent until proven guilty---not just get a rope! Or maybe you prefer to live in a society where there are no trials--because basically that what most of you are suggesting. Anybody can allege anything, the media grows to an uproar and we will just skip the adjudication process and have a public lynching despite the truth or hell- without ever questioning anything.
realitycheck | 8:51 a.m. Jan. 14, 2009
u need more education:
they freely admit they practice polygamy which is against the law. no need to say "innocent until proven guilty". they are guilty.
joey - no - i'm not big brothe. But I believe children deserve every chance to make a good life for themselves as they get older. FLDS removes that ability. Once the girls have children, they are locked in. Thats why the FLDS like to marry them off and knock them up as early as possible.
re 4:05pm
legalizing polygamy won't stop the abuse. That's crazy to say. How would that stop it? The only way to stop the abuse is to break up the cult and spread the followers around the country, so the children can see other points of view and lifestyles. Get them out into the real world. Send them to college, etc.
if they want to go further underground, let them. They will be found and prosecuted. Every civilized country bans polygamy. You think this is just coincidence? FLDS should move to the 3rd world where it is acceptable.
religion can be practiced without breaking the law or abusing the followers. The FLDS just hasn't figured that out yet.
they freely admit they practice polygamy which is against the law. no need to say "innocent until proven guilty". they are guilty.
joey - no - i'm not big brothe. But I believe children deserve every chance to make a good life for themselves as they get older. FLDS removes that ability. Once the girls have children, they are locked in. Thats why the FLDS like to marry them off and knock them up as early as possible.
re 4:05pm
legalizing polygamy won't stop the abuse. That's crazy to say. How would that stop it? The only way to stop the abuse is to break up the cult and spread the followers around the country, so the children can see other points of view and lifestyles. Get them out into the real world. Send them to college, etc.
if they want to go further underground, let them. They will be found and prosecuted. Every civilized country bans polygamy. You think this is just coincidence? FLDS should move to the 3rd world where it is acceptable.
religion can be practiced without breaking the law or abusing the followers. The FLDS just hasn't figured that out yet.
Joey | 12:46 p.m. Jan. 14, 2009
And what is polygamy? What's the difference between polygamy and having
more than one girlfriend/boyfriend? How many women out there are having children
by more than one man, and vice versa? What's the difference, other than the
profession of faith in some ideal form of "marriage."
As for kids, it's not illegal to shelter your kids. Ask the Amish or any other legal fundamentalist group.
As for kids, it's not illegal to shelter your kids. Ask the Amish or any other legal fundamentalist group.
Red | 5:44 p.m. Jan. 14, 2009
realitycheck 10:00AM: "the problem with the FLDS is they [force] their
religious views onto ... their children."
Aw, c'mon RC! Who doesn't "force" their values -- religious and otherwise -- on their kids?
D'you think the average Fenian (or Prot, or Wiccan, or Submitter, or whatever) toddler has any choice in what they're force-fed along with their pablum?
Remember the old saw about letting kids grow up without exposure to their parents' values, so they can choose for themselves when they grow up, is like letting farm-land choose what to grow without benefit of cultivation?
In face, I'm pretty sure that deliberately refusing to instill values in one's kids would constitute child abuse!
Aw, c'mon RC! Who doesn't "force" their values -- religious and otherwise -- on their kids?
D'you think the average Fenian (or Prot, or Wiccan, or Submitter, or whatever) toddler has any choice in what they're force-fed along with their pablum?
Remember the old saw about letting kids grow up without exposure to their parents' values, so they can choose for themselves when they grow up, is like letting farm-land choose what to grow without benefit of cultivation?
In face, I'm pretty sure that deliberately refusing to instill values in one's kids would constitute child abuse!
freethinker | 6:10 p.m. Jan. 14, 2009
Many of these comments are from people who have no idea of the true beliefs of
the FLDS. It makes me think that most of us judge others by what we ourselves
believe to be right and wrong. I am FLDS and find no reason to apologize for it.
I believe in the original teachings of Joseph Smith as recorded in the Book of
Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph
Smith. I believe all the works of Joseph Smith to be true and accurate and it
isn't my job to pick and choose which of his tenets to believe and obey.
All of them were inspired of God and as the early missionaries declared to
prospective members, If you believe and obey you will be saved and if you
don't believe you will be damned. How can there be anything more simple?
Red | 6:56 p.m. Jan. 14, 2009
freethinker 6:10 PM: "I am FLDS and find no reason to apologize for it. I
believe in the original teachings of Joseph Smith as recorded in the Book of
Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph
Smith."
Good for you, FT. If you're being true to your honest beliefs, I can't see why you should apologize, either.
One problem, though: I'm pretty sure that plurality of wives is OK with the FLDS.
If you're following "the original teachings of Joseph Smith as recorded in ... the Doctrine and Covenants," you have to reconcile yourself to his 100% consistent teaching that marriage was "one man, one woman -- period."
Brigham Young had D&C 100, which said so, pulled.
The Nauvoo Expositor was trashed because it was about to spread the vile -- and false -- rumor that Mormon leaders were engaging in sexual hanky-panky with multiple women, in the face of repeated, strenuous denials by the Brethren.
I think you're confusing following "the original teachings of Brigham Young" with "the original teachings of Joseph Smith!"
Good for you, FT. If you're being true to your honest beliefs, I can't see why you should apologize, either.
One problem, though: I'm pretty sure that plurality of wives is OK with the FLDS.
If you're following "the original teachings of Joseph Smith as recorded in ... the Doctrine and Covenants," you have to reconcile yourself to his 100% consistent teaching that marriage was "one man, one woman -- period."
Brigham Young had D&C 100, which said so, pulled.
The Nauvoo Expositor was trashed because it was about to spread the vile -- and false -- rumor that Mormon leaders were engaging in sexual hanky-panky with multiple women, in the face of repeated, strenuous denials by the Brethren.
I think you're confusing following "the original teachings of Brigham Young" with "the original teachings of Joseph Smith!"
zxcvbnm | 6:33 a.m. Jan. 15, 2009
The FLDS have the right to practice their religion just as any other religion in this country. Whether they chose to live behind walls or set up a bake sale at Walmart is their business.
When FLDS showed up in Eldorado the locals flew planes over their property, set Doran on patrol, made jokes and even set up booths at the local fair to sell "polygamy capital" trinkets.
Doran even had a parking place all set up for surveilance.
Nice welcome folks.
Flora started her contact with Doran shortly after the Church moved to town and the gossip flew, and continues to fly.
Hildebrand "Targeted" the church with laws that are sure to be challenged.
As far as polygamy being illegal. Noone is charged with polygamy and in this day of "consenxual sex" and "alternate lifestyles" any charges would be thrown out by our present Supreme court.
No religion has to "assimilate".......we all just have to learn to get along.
Andrea | 8:20 a.m. Jan. 15, 2009
Realitycheck,
The problem is not polygamy the problem is having children married off before they are above the age of consent (since most are not legally married).
Texas supreme court ruled that the state cant dictate cohabitation or pass laws prohibiting it. It would only be illegal if one man had more then one marriage license.
I personally do see anything wrong with consenting adults practicing polygamy. The key word here is consenting.
The problem is not polygamy the problem is having children married off before they are above the age of consent (since most are not legally married).
Texas supreme court ruled that the state cant dictate cohabitation or pass laws prohibiting it. It would only be illegal if one man had more then one marriage license.
I personally do see anything wrong with consenting adults practicing polygamy. The key word here is consenting.
realitycheck | 8:59 a.m. Jan. 15, 2009
re Andrea 8:20am
I have no problem with polygamy either (other than it is illegal.)
my problem is the isolated subculture of the FLDS. The children DO NOT have the same opportunities as other children, and have no ability to choose their life. The girls are told from birth to marry young and produce children. They are scared into it by religious zealots and never have a chance at a regular life.
they are denied a full education, and are destined to hide in isolation (or "escape").
Perhaps the postponement to 18 would help, since at 18 they should at least be somewhat free thinkers. But they will still be terrified of the outside world, which ceates its own little prison.
it's too bad these people are so afraid. It destroys futures...
I have no problem with polygamy either (other than it is illegal.)
my problem is the isolated subculture of the FLDS. The children DO NOT have the same opportunities as other children, and have no ability to choose their life. The girls are told from birth to marry young and produce children. They are scared into it by religious zealots and never have a chance at a regular life.
they are denied a full education, and are destined to hide in isolation (or "escape").
Perhaps the postponement to 18 would help, since at 18 they should at least be somewhat free thinkers. But they will still be terrified of the outside world, which ceates its own little prison.
it's too bad these people are so afraid. It destroys futures...
Lisa | 6:43 a.m. Feb. 3, 2009
The problem is the psychological slavery of women. Little education and a life
long indoctrination of obedience to the prophet and men, the outside world is
barbaric, add to that to disobey leads to burning on hell but worse to loose
EVERYONE. Worldy Women stay in abusive relationships for fear of not making it
alone but to live this isolated life, they have no choice, I can not believe we
have slavery still in the USA!
I don't care if these women are 80, they psychologically are abused by this fanatic cult.
I don't care if these women are 80, they psychologically are abused by this fanatic cult.
Lisa | 7:00 a.m. Feb. 3, 2009
To compare the Amish the the FDLS is ridiculous, I have lived in Pennsylvania,
these people are not hidden away, will speak to we English as they call us. They
allow their children to leave for a year and make the decision to enter the
world or not.
FLDS as it stands today is about the power, abuse , pedophilia, and brainwashing.
As for all the polygamists that live want to whitewash the practice as Big Love does. Move to annother country if you want to practice that.
FLDS as it stands today is about the power, abuse , pedophilia, and brainwashing.
As for all the polygamists that live want to whitewash the practice as Big Love does. Move to annother country if you want to practice that.
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'I'm personally tired of having gay rights shoved down my throat.' Then...
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