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Demos find LDS silent on issues
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Get Real | 8:33 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
I have the right to say or post what I want and that does not give me the right
to limit what anyone else or organization says. you express your freedom of
speech and say that the other should be kept silent. Get real!!!
Anonymous | 8:32 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
"but the truth is that the majority of those who are affluent and educated
in Utah are mormons or have strong ties to the mormon church.
Typically, with money and education comes people who get elected into office. So, to me it is no surprise that 80% are mormon. It's funny that you would even question that."
60% of Utah is Mormon. Only 40% in SL County. 90% outside SL CO.
It is a wonder that only 80% of the legislature is Mormon.
It is all a numbers game. It has nothing to do with education or wealth. You make non-Mormons sound like backwards poor trash. It really was very offensive.
Typically, with money and education comes people who get elected into office. So, to me it is no surprise that 80% are mormon. It's funny that you would even question that."
60% of Utah is Mormon. Only 40% in SL County. 90% outside SL CO.
It is a wonder that only 80% of the legislature is Mormon.
It is all a numbers game. It has nothing to do with education or wealth. You make non-Mormons sound like backwards poor trash. It really was very offensive.
Comments continue below
Elton John | 8:41 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
Gays need to take Elton John's advice. Marriage for straights and civil
unions for gays.
As for all the people who just can't stand the influence the LDS church has in Utah....I believe I80 over the Sierras is open today. I left California to get away from you nitwits. Please stop trying to make Utah as screwed up as all the places you came here from.
As for all the people who just can't stand the influence the LDS church has in Utah....I believe I80 over the Sierras is open today. I left California to get away from you nitwits. Please stop trying to make Utah as screwed up as all the places you came here from.
To all | 8:41 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
We aren't in the South, Minn, Boston; we are in Utah. I thought the mormon
religion was the one true religion, why do you want to be compared to anyone
else?
We aren't leaving and it's only going to get better as we non's continue to voice our digust with the church and it's political puppets.
We aren't leaving and it's only going to get better as we non's continue to voice our digust with the church and it's political puppets.
Bill | 8:43 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
Article 1 Section 4 of the Utah State Constitution:
"There shall be no union of Church and State, nor shall any church dominate the State or interfere with its functions."
We have a much more distinct separation of Church and state than the US gov. does. Do we really believe that this section of our constitution is being followed? The LDS Church DOES dominate this State and just by stating its stand, CAN interfere with its functions.
"There shall be no union of Church and State, nor shall any church dominate the State or interfere with its functions."
We have a much more distinct separation of Church and state than the US gov. does. Do we really believe that this section of our constitution is being followed? The LDS Church DOES dominate this State and just by stating its stand, CAN interfere with its functions.
re Dave S | 8:43 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
No, I'm sure they much prefer staying here giving you prickly heat on a
daily basis.
The Shamwow Guy | 8:46 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
Look, I think we can all agree that we could maybe use a little less tithing and
a little more polygamy. Am I right or what?
Anonymous | 8:45 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
"I would tell them to get out, and quit persecuting those who opposed Prop
8, that this is a free country, and people should be able to vote their
conscience with out fear of intimidation"
Isn't telling them to "get out" a form of intimidation? Especially when they are such a minority group compared to us LDS people? Why can't we just love everyone?
Isn't telling them to "get out" a form of intimidation? Especially when they are such a minority group compared to us LDS people? Why can't we just love everyone?
re: 8:10 | 8:45 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
Yes, the church wants to control your family or why would it care to whom you
were married?
Seems to me the church, I mean state, is spending an awful lot on welfare for your church allowed, I mean state allowed, private stuff called polygamy down in Hilldale..
First falls Bountiful, BC, next Hilldale!
Seems to me the church, I mean state, is spending an awful lot on welfare for your church allowed, I mean state allowed, private stuff called polygamy down in Hilldale..
First falls Bountiful, BC, next Hilldale!
Belgie | 8:47 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
Everywhere I've been (including residence in two foreign countries),
there's been a religions majority that has a significant influence on local
politics. Nowhere does the minority complain as much as in Utah.
About the idea that you have to pay taxes to take a political stand - it's the Democrats that want to eliminate taxes for 25% of Americans. Should those people no longer vote? Fine with me.
About the idea that you have to pay taxes to take a political stand - it's the Democrats that want to eliminate taxes for 25% of Americans. Should those people no longer vote? Fine with me.
re: Funny 8:18 | 8:49 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
All I can say is an emphatic, YES!! to your last statement. Your principals
weren't accepted in New York, IL, MO in the 1800's and they won't
be accepted anymore in Utah in the 21st century! Glad you finally see the
light..
To Mr Elton John | 8:52 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
Elton, you do realize that civil unions for gays are against our utah state
constituion, don't you?
That is what the second paragraph of amendment 3 was all about. Utah has banned those unions. I think the six laws that the Demos are trying to pass gives gays just a few rights without crossing Amendment 3's rules.
That is what the second paragraph of amendment 3 was all about. Utah has banned those unions. I think the six laws that the Demos are trying to pass gives gays just a few rights without crossing Amendment 3's rules.
Scott | 8:58 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
If the listener is both deaf and blind, then the Church is silent on issue.
Otherwise, there is plenty of Church-issed statements on the issues of our day,
and guess what? They are quite clear.
Raleigh | 9:01 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
After reading - with great amusement - the banter that goes on between warring
personal factions on this comment forums, it makes me glad that I don't
like in Utah. Love the state, love the people (irrespective of religion), love
the influence for good ALL churches in Utah have, and loved being raised there.
Having seen something of issues like these over the past decade or so since leaving from a separated perspective, it also gives me satisfaction that these issues aren't so much LDS vs. non-LDS, church vs state, or "control over membership" vs "freedom to think". It's really just a bunch of people who like to argue for the sake of arguing. Debbie from GA hit the nail on the head. Some non-LDS like to find reasons to get riled up, some LDS are prone to be up-in-arm over any peceived slight. And I intentionally say some for both groups because the vast majoirty are tolerant.
DN, please keep writing articles like this, and people keep posting. Always reliable for a bit of comic relif and a dose of perspective (or lack thereof).
Having seen something of issues like these over the past decade or so since leaving from a separated perspective, it also gives me satisfaction that these issues aren't so much LDS vs. non-LDS, church vs state, or "control over membership" vs "freedom to think". It's really just a bunch of people who like to argue for the sake of arguing. Debbie from GA hit the nail on the head. Some non-LDS like to find reasons to get riled up, some LDS are prone to be up-in-arm over any peceived slight. And I intentionally say some for both groups because the vast majoirty are tolerant.
DN, please keep writing articles like this, and people keep posting. Always reliable for a bit of comic relif and a dose of perspective (or lack thereof).
Outsider Lookin In | 9:04 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
Come on people.......you folks who aren't members of the mormon church
quite your crying. Why did you move there? Were you forced to move there? Yah
right. Move to California, the northwest, even better move back east. For
those of you from there, I feel for you. You have spent your whole life
learning to hate the church, just because you where not a mormon, and oh how bad
these peaple are. Sounds like another part of the world. They spend millions
to feed the hungery, not only in Utah but around the world, they help the poor,
and find jobs for the not so dead beats. Oh and yes they teach in church to
treat everyone as the Savior did. If you could get outside of yourself and
understand that the weakness in the church is not the church itself, nor its
"government", it IS in the individual members who at times find it
difficult to apply what they are being taught each Sunday.
If you think you can separate your religious beliefs from your political beliefs, you are kidding yourselves, and you know it or your a democrat.
If you think you can separate your religious beliefs from your political beliefs, you are kidding yourselves, and you know it or your a democrat.
The Fittest | 9:11 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
As for my religion and my god it is Darwin, "survival of the fittest"
everything within it makes sense.
Looks like the Church is pretty fit.
Looks like the Church is pretty fit.
Jared | 9:10 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
"McCoy and others want LDS leaders to publicly support a group of bills to
be considered in the Legislature that, according to McCoy, would advance gay
partnership rights in areas that the church has not opposed in
California."
Just because the church is not opposed to some legal rights for gay partners does not mean they have to go out of their way to support such legislation.
RE: George. "Religions, next to any government, has brought more heartache, more depravity into this world than anything else." So your solution is no religions and no governments? Yeah, complete anarchy is the peaceful way to go.
"Where were these religions when it came to slavery" - it was because of religious leaders that slavery ended; check your history. Churches generally take strong stances against things they believe are immoral.
If your religion and god is Darwin then your god is dead. I find very few clashes between Darwin's theories and LDS doctrine. There are some but we know that science certainly isn't perfect.
Just because the church is not opposed to some legal rights for gay partners does not mean they have to go out of their way to support such legislation.
RE: George. "Religions, next to any government, has brought more heartache, more depravity into this world than anything else." So your solution is no religions and no governments? Yeah, complete anarchy is the peaceful way to go.
"Where were these religions when it came to slavery" - it was because of religious leaders that slavery ended; check your history. Churches generally take strong stances against things they believe are immoral.
If your religion and god is Darwin then your god is dead. I find very few clashes between Darwin's theories and LDS doctrine. There are some but we know that science certainly isn't perfect.
lawscholar | 9:14 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
Confusion on the church/state separation reigns supreme. Most of the founding
fathers (including Jefferson) believed when politics and religion mix, both are
corrupted; hence, his statement that a "wall of separation" should
exist, but only as applied to the federal government. When the constitution was
first ratified, the first amendment did not apply to the states, but became
applicable with the incorporation clause of the 14th amendment. With that said,
one should not confuse the "private virtue" of individuals influenced
by religion and "public virtue" of politicians who seek to do good. A
difference exists when the "private virtue" of office-holders
influences their actions in office and direction by a religious organization.
That is not to say that organizations cannot weigh in on issues; however, when
an organization voluntarily thrusts itself into the vortex of public opinion on
a specific issue, erosion of the wall of separation can occur. A very fine line
exists between guidance to the faithful and intrusion into the governmental
process.
Albemar | 9:16 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
How sad. The lack of compassion or even understanding of the basic facts of how
Gay & Lesbian families are denied equality by the government is astounding.
Yet is allows those who don't care to do nothing and just complain, rather
than take responsibility for their ignoring the basic human needs of their
neighbors.
Where is the unconditional love? Where is the LDS Church and it's member's with their claims of not being "Anti-Gay". They were hollow promises then and hollow promises now. We are all capable of better if we choose. Obviously we don't choose to care.
Where is the unconditional love? Where is the LDS Church and it's member's with their claims of not being "Anti-Gay". They were hollow promises then and hollow promises now. We are all capable of better if we choose. Obviously we don't choose to care.
Let's get real | 9:15 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
I agree with the many posters who argue that influence is simply a part of our
society. Name me an organization that does not try to share their views if given
the opportunity? There is NOTHING wrong with the Church meeting with local
lawmakers in the same way hundreds of other organizations meet with or somehow
try to influence our local lawmakers. It is an accepted and healthy part of our
democracy.
BUT - let's also be real about the fact that the LDS Church probably exercises stronger influence on Utah government proportionally than most any other group both in this state or any other state. When 80% of state lawmakers are of one religion you have to be honest that the influence is potentially much stronger the norm.
Again, this is not wrong. It just is what it is given that this is Utah. The Church should not be treated differently just because 80% of the lawmakers in the state are LDS. They still have the same right to exercise its influence as other organizations. I just means that those with a different view than the LDS Church need to be more active in exercising their influence.
BUT - let's also be real about the fact that the LDS Church probably exercises stronger influence on Utah government proportionally than most any other group both in this state or any other state. When 80% of state lawmakers are of one religion you have to be honest that the influence is potentially much stronger the norm.
Again, this is not wrong. It just is what it is given that this is Utah. The Church should not be treated differently just because 80% of the lawmakers in the state are LDS. They still have the same right to exercise its influence as other organizations. I just means that those with a different view than the LDS Church need to be more active in exercising their influence.
lawscholar | 9:20 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
Ivman: Actually, the laws of intestacy would allow a spouse to inherit, but not
a life-long partner. Further muddling the matter on bequests is the issue of
proposition 3 passed a few years ago regarding same-sex relations. The broad
language of the law clearly places in question the ability to contract between
same-sex couples even through testamentary bequests.
Take A Guess | 9:19 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
How many of Utah's "60 Percent" are active?
voter | 9:25 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
Rather than being concerned with the power the LDS church wields, why are we not
concerned about the power others wield?
Take Scott McCoy for instance. Do you realize he was brought to this state from Chicago by many organizations (funded by them) to win the seat he did and have influence in our laws and in our state. He doesn't represent Utah, but the special interest groups who put him into power. He doesn't have any problem trying to take power and run with it.
I didn't make this info up, but I got it from one of the State legislators. That info is common knowledge if you look for it.
Take Scott McCoy for instance. Do you realize he was brought to this state from Chicago by many organizations (funded by them) to win the seat he did and have influence in our laws and in our state. He doesn't represent Utah, but the special interest groups who put him into power. He doesn't have any problem trying to take power and run with it.
I didn't make this info up, but I got it from one of the State legislators. That info is common knowledge if you look for it.
Otis Spurlock | 9:28 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
"The Shamwow Guy | 8:46 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
Look, I think we can all agree that we could maybe use a little less tithing and a little more polygamy. Am I right or what?"
While I obviously don't agree with this statement, it was the only comment that I have read in the last 5 years that actually made me laugh out loud. My wife came in my office and asked me what I was laughing at. Thanks Shamwow for brightening up my day.
Look, I think we can all agree that we could maybe use a little less tithing and a little more polygamy. Am I right or what?"
While I obviously don't agree with this statement, it was the only comment that I have read in the last 5 years that actually made me laugh out loud. My wife came in my office and asked me what I was laughing at. Thanks Shamwow for brightening up my day.
Sarah Nichole | 9:29 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
Re: 30 second memory
Since the Lord gave you and your wife everything you have, including your money, giving a small portion of that back to Him to use as He, and His earthly servants, see fit is not asking much. It's symbolic of giving your life over to Christ. Our lives are not our own. They were paid for with a very high price, and striving to keep the Lord's commandments is the very least we can do to attempt to repay that debt. Paying your tithing is supposed to point you toward letting Christ guide your path through life. We give up all claim on that money, just as we are supposed to give up all claim on worldly influences, and live our lives according to His will.
If you choose not to pay tithing, that, and the reasons behind it, are between you and the Lord and your local priesthood leadership. It's not between you and all of the DN readership.
Also, insisting that the Lord's ways are wrong and yours are right is probably not terribly smart. His ways are not our ways for a reason: He knows better than we do on every subject imaginable.
Since the Lord gave you and your wife everything you have, including your money, giving a small portion of that back to Him to use as He, and His earthly servants, see fit is not asking much. It's symbolic of giving your life over to Christ. Our lives are not our own. They were paid for with a very high price, and striving to keep the Lord's commandments is the very least we can do to attempt to repay that debt. Paying your tithing is supposed to point you toward letting Christ guide your path through life. We give up all claim on that money, just as we are supposed to give up all claim on worldly influences, and live our lives according to His will.
If you choose not to pay tithing, that, and the reasons behind it, are between you and the Lord and your local priesthood leadership. It's not between you and all of the DN readership.
Also, insisting that the Lord's ways are wrong and yours are right is probably not terribly smart. His ways are not our ways for a reason: He knows better than we do on every subject imaginable.
Moss | 9:28 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
Religion is the cause of man's greatest sufferings and cruelities, we
should all join the fight for freedom from religion in public life.
Anonymous | 9:43 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
"There is NOTHING wrong with the Church meeting with local lawmakers in the
same way hundreds of other organizations meet with or somehow try to influence
our local lawmakers. It is an accepted and healthy part of our
democracy."
If they are trying to influence the state government, they are doing so against our state constitution. (see Bill @8:43 am today.)
If they are trying to influence the state government, they are doing so against our state constitution. (see Bill @8:43 am today.)
to voter | 9:52 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
"Take Scott McCoy for instance. Do you realize he was brought to this state
from Chicago by many organizations (funded by them) to win the seat he did and
have influence in our laws and in our state."
"From January 2002 to March 2003, he served as law clerk to Justice Leonard H. Russon of the Utah Supreme Court.
He was appointed to the seat by Utah Democratic Party delegates in February 2005, following the resignation of Senator Paula Julander on health grounds. He ran for re-election in 2006 and faced little opposition in this reliably Democratic district, defeating his Republican opponent by more than two-to-one."
So, he was in Utah for three years before being appointed to his Senate seat. He is more of a UTAHN than our own beloved Sen. Hatch.
Silly people passing around silly rumors.
"From January 2002 to March 2003, he served as law clerk to Justice Leonard H. Russon of the Utah Supreme Court.
He was appointed to the seat by Utah Democratic Party delegates in February 2005, following the resignation of Senator Paula Julander on health grounds. He ran for re-election in 2006 and faced little opposition in this reliably Democratic district, defeating his Republican opponent by more than two-to-one."
So, he was in Utah for three years before being appointed to his Senate seat. He is more of a UTAHN than our own beloved Sen. Hatch.
Silly people passing around silly rumors.
To Moss | 10:06 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
How dare you impose your secular humanist religion on me?!
Give me liberty -- from secular humanist high priests like Moss -- or give me death!
Well, maybe a severe paper cut, anyway.
Dude, you've got to start taking yourself a little less seriously, or you'll end up a politician! And with those seriously flawed thoughts, an unhappy, irrelevant one, at least in this state.
Give me liberty -- from secular humanist high priests like Moss -- or give me death!
Well, maybe a severe paper cut, anyway.
Dude, you've got to start taking yourself a little less seriously, or you'll end up a politician! And with those seriously flawed thoughts, an unhappy, irrelevant one, at least in this state.
Arizona | 10:13 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
If I ran a state, I would plan to meet with the leaders of the LDS church, the
Catholic church, the Quakers, the Baptists, the gays, the gun nuts, the anti-gun
nuts, and any other group who had an opinion they wanted to share. Heck,
I'd even meet with Planned Barrenhood and the teachers' union. I
wouldn't negotiate with any of them, but I would listen and ask
questions.
Why would anybody think that is strange, or pick on them for not having an official opinion on EVERY issue?
Why would anybody think that is strange, or pick on them for not having an official opinion on EVERY issue?
JanSan | 10:12 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
If I remember right there were 5 points to the new paperwork that was given to
the LDS Leadership to look at from the gay rights group that they wanted the
church to look at and ok. The first four were mentioned here in this article but
the 5th was not. That they would have changes to the States Constitution
concerning marraige. They are setting themselves up for failure and then they
will whine and protest and tell the world it is all the churches fault. If they
want all these rights so very bad.... then leave marraige OUT of the process.
Yes, it is different! My children or different (boy,girl) but I love them the
same. If you don't like the words "equal partnership" then find
something else besides Marraige.
Re: Anonymous 9:43 am | 10:15 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
"If they (LDS church leaders) are trying to influence the state government,
they are doing so against our state constitution."
Actually, it seems that it's the state government trying to do the influencing. They meet with the LDS leaders, they discuss the church's stance on the issues, and then they use that to sway the voters in their constituency. If the stance of the LDS church is in line with the bills up for legislation, the legislatures will use that to prop up their position. If it's not, they'll downplay it so people don't realize the church is against what they're trying to pass. If the church takes no direct stance (i.e., "does not object" to something, rather than fully supporting it), they can complain that the LDS church is not helping their cause, which catches the attention of those who are so violently against everything the LDS church stands for (see the above comments for proof of this).
Actually, it seems that it's the state government trying to do the influencing. They meet with the LDS leaders, they discuss the church's stance on the issues, and then they use that to sway the voters in their constituency. If the stance of the LDS church is in line with the bills up for legislation, the legislatures will use that to prop up their position. If it's not, they'll downplay it so people don't realize the church is against what they're trying to pass. If the church takes no direct stance (i.e., "does not object" to something, rather than fully supporting it), they can complain that the LDS church is not helping their cause, which catches the attention of those who are so violently against everything the LDS church stands for (see the above comments for proof of this).
My2Cents | 10:16 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
Tithing is one of the reasons Utah leads the nation in Bankruptcy Filings.
Look, the Church doesn't need the money, it is the wealthiest Church behind
the Catholic Church. We may all be better off if we could pay tithing in some
other way. Like service tithing (working on projects, building homes for the
poor, etc.) instead of paying a monetary amount every month.
The pioneers would be tithing in service and livestock instead of a monetary tithing. Maybe we should go back to something like that.
Just a suggestion
The pioneers would be tithing in service and livestock instead of a monetary tithing. Maybe we should go back to something like that.
Just a suggestion
Chuck | 10:17 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
It makes good sense to keep one's mouth shut until there is actually
something on paper to discuss. The Church's doctrines are easily available,
and statements or positions are rightly not offered when there is not an actual
bill on the table.
Personally, I think (especially in the current economic climate) that individuals who live together in non-traditional households and are financially dependent on one another should be able to apply for group benefits such as health insurance as traditional families are able to do. It just makes sense to take care of each other, as was mentioned in the article, rather than expecting or planning for the government or other organizations to take all the responsibility. Laws should be in place that support individuals caring for one another to avoid government handouts.
Personally, I think (especially in the current economic climate) that individuals who live together in non-traditional households and are financially dependent on one another should be able to apply for group benefits such as health insurance as traditional families are able to do. It just makes sense to take care of each other, as was mentioned in the article, rather than expecting or planning for the government or other organizations to take all the responsibility. Laws should be in place that support individuals caring for one another to avoid government handouts.
ExMoWeHoMo | 10:23 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
TAX ALL CHURCHES!
re: Jared | 10:21 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
Slavery has not ended. I suggest you go to any search engine and do your
research. You are capable of doing that, right?
Slavery is not some distant issue, but is present day. It is now happening Sudan, China, Mali, Thailand, Mauritania, etc etc etc.
But I have yet to hear one single religion speak out about it. Instead it is spinning it's wheels against much more important issues like gay marriage.
Slavery is not some distant issue, but is present day. It is now happening Sudan, China, Mali, Thailand, Mauritania, etc etc etc.
But I have yet to hear one single religion speak out about it. Instead it is spinning it's wheels against much more important issues like gay marriage.
Gay Marriage? | 10:34 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
I don't get this gay marriage thing. If marriage is such a great thing,
why are hetrosexuals increasingly opting out of it both before and after
marriage. I think anyone who is divorced knows the answers. Now with no fault
divorce, a person can get married, commit adultery or whatever else they want
and in a state divorce, its only about the money. They court divides everything
50/50. The person without the money (earning capacity) gets all the assets
(what's left over after the attorneys blow through it all) and the person
with the money gets all the liabilities (including the unpaid attorney fees for
both sides). Today, unmarried people get most of the benefits with none of the
responsibilities. How sweet is that. I cannot tell you how happy I would be if
I could get a religious marriage (which I believe in) without being forced by
the church to get a state marriage (which I don't believe in). The gays
should consider themselves lucky (unless they are divorce attorneys) that they
can't get married. Give them what they want and 20 years from now they
will be blaming us for all their marriage problems.
Amazed | 10:53 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
Just out of curiosity, I perused the comments submitted so far on this article.
I am simply amazed and somewhat sad that there are so many shallow people living
in this fair state on both sides of the argument. I will exercise better
control in the future and refrain from reading future comments on articles.
Tom in CA | 11:01 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
Re: 30 Second Memory
Thanks for sharing with us your excuse for not paying your tithing. We all need an excuse and you have found one - yours is as good as any.
And Re: "separation of church and state" - those who continue to gripe about it really should improve their scholarship on the subject prior to revealing their stupidity with comments made.
That's all - thanks.
Thanks for sharing with us your excuse for not paying your tithing. We all need an excuse and you have found one - yours is as good as any.
And Re: "separation of church and state" - those who continue to gripe about it really should improve their scholarship on the subject prior to revealing their stupidity with comments made.
That's all - thanks.
Quite Provocative | 11:06 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
The LDS church was attacked because it made a strong expression of disapproval
against Prop 8 because of 'separation of church and state.' However,
gay rights activists would like them to do te exact same thing, but in their
favor, thus performing the same act that drew fire in the first place.
Oh,and by the way, LDS belief has kept a majority of its members happy and productive. Anybody who finds problems with Mormon beliefs should watch he dreaded Joseph Smith South Park episode. There's not a single piece of media that explains that fact as well as that episode. All anti-Mormons will shut up after they see it.
Oh,and by the way, LDS belief has kept a majority of its members happy and productive. Anybody who finds problems with Mormon beliefs should watch he dreaded Joseph Smith South Park episode. There's not a single piece of media that explains that fact as well as that episode. All anti-Mormons will shut up after they see it.
ist | 11:13 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
To George: your reference to Darwin and "survival of the fittest" is
just about as incorrect as your comments on religion. Herbert Spencer coined the
phrase you mentioned and Darwin is famous for "natural selection".
expand your horizon | 11:18 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
The church does have influence, and i think a very positive one. If you consider
the standard of living and environment people enjoy in Utah, as compared overall
to other placees in the U.S., that influence is very positive. Too bad people
feel a need to protest so hard against something that promotes so much good, and
yet fail to turn such energy towards corporations that are not benefiting
society at all. Oh I don't know, Big Tobacco comes to mind, or the beer and
gambling industry, or even pornography. Where are the people protesting so
vigorously to end these crimes on humanity. It appears people's priorities
have skewed - bad is good, and good is bad, etc.
bd | 11:27 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
I is funny how people complain about the LDS church having political influence
in Utah. The LDS church is not the only Church to meet with political leaders.
They all do! No church votes. Therefore they do not control the political
environment of the United States. We the people do. What churches do influence
is the moral environment of their members. If you do not agree with the moral
stance of a church, then don't be a member of it. Then it will have less of
an influence on you and your views. People must stand for their moral values or
your worth is zero to the society. Churches must do the same otherwise they
serve no purpose. People and organization must speak out for their moral values.
That means some of us will disagree. This is not a political issue, but a
political right to have opinions.
re: ist | 11:38 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
To use some of my research: QUOTE.
"Although Darwin used the phrase "survival of the fittest" as a synonym for "natural selection" and
"Spencer drew parallels to his ideas of economics with Charles Darwin's theories of evolution by what Darwin termed natural selection."
In other words, Darwin did come up with survival of the fittest.
To be more blunt, you and Jared need to stop colloborating or at least do better research. George.
"Although Darwin used the phrase "survival of the fittest" as a synonym for "natural selection" and
"Spencer drew parallels to his ideas of economics with Charles Darwin's theories of evolution by what Darwin termed natural selection."
In other words, Darwin did come up with survival of the fittest.
To be more blunt, you and Jared need to stop colloborating or at least do better research. George.
Anonymous | 12:14 p.m. Jan. 8, 2009
"There shall be no union of Church and State, nor shall any church dominate
the State or interfere with its functions."
What does this mean to you LDS people who think the church does and should influence our States government? Why do you think we have this line in our constitution?
Answers?
What does this mean to you LDS people who think the church does and should influence our States government? Why do you think we have this line in our constitution?
Answers?
NativeUtahnbutnotignorant | 12:41 p.m. Jan. 8, 2009
LDS Church leaders have said they aren't against Civil Unions. So the Utah
legislature should go ahead and introduce the legislation allowing civil unions.
As for those of you who talk about crazy California. They were one of the first states to prohibit smoking indoors. They were one of the first states to raise standards for car emissions. California has led the way in environmental legislation. Yes, Calif. has problems too---it has the largest population in the U.S., 12 million more people than the next most populated state--New York. Utah--with its large percentage of Mormons still has homeless people who die, gang problems, higher rates of bankruptcy, leader in pyramid schemes etc. Open your eyes.
As for those of you who talk about crazy California. They were one of the first states to prohibit smoking indoors. They were one of the first states to raise standards for car emissions. California has led the way in environmental legislation. Yes, Calif. has problems too---it has the largest population in the U.S., 12 million more people than the next most populated state--New York. Utah--with its large percentage of Mormons still has homeless people who die, gang problems, higher rates of bankruptcy, leader in pyramid schemes etc. Open your eyes.
John Pack Lambert | 12:43 p.m. Jan. 8, 2009
I highly doubt the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will publicly
support bills on issues like hospital access. The Church generally avoids
getting involved in political issues.
Also, McCoy is either deluding himself or does not understand the difference between not supporting and opposing.
That said, the refusal to endorse or oppose the bill at this point is good on two grounds. One, I think the church needs to keep narrow the number of issues it defines as moral, thus getting its influence in those issues high.
Secondly, even if the Church leaders think they may support or oppose these bills, or even plan to say nothing, it is not good to commit to any position until the bills are actually known. The last thing you want is to commit to support or not comment on a bill, and then when it comes out see that it has material that you have to speak out against. There is no reason to express support for an unwritten and unread piece of legislation.
Also, McCoy is either deluding himself or does not understand the difference between not supporting and opposing.
That said, the refusal to endorse or oppose the bill at this point is good on two grounds. One, I think the church needs to keep narrow the number of issues it defines as moral, thus getting its influence in those issues high.
Secondly, even if the Church leaders think they may support or oppose these bills, or even plan to say nothing, it is not good to commit to any position until the bills are actually known. The last thing you want is to commit to support or not comment on a bill, and then when it comes out see that it has material that you have to speak out against. There is no reason to express support for an unwritten and unread piece of legislation.
John Pack Lambert | 12:46 p.m. Jan. 8, 2009
To the 6:38 commentator,
Go back and read Elder Ballard's General Conference talk on being a good neighbor, and start heading the words of the prophets, seers and revelators. He said we should never tell anyone who dislikes a law or policy in Utah to move out. Never, not even in jest.
If people would just head this one piece of counsel than there would be more kindness, friendliness and love in the state of Utah. Please for once actually listen to the prophets of God.
Go back and read Elder Ballard's General Conference talk on being a good neighbor, and start heading the words of the prophets, seers and revelators. He said we should never tell anyone who dislikes a law or policy in Utah to move out. Never, not even in jest.
If people would just head this one piece of counsel than there would be more kindness, friendliness and love in the state of Utah. Please for once actually listen to the prophets of God.
John Pack Lambert | 12:50 p.m. Jan. 8, 2009
To Kevin,
Actually The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of the major taxpayers in Utah. It owns several companies and other organizations that pay taxes, including DeseretBook, the Deseret News, a land development arm that is building the City Creek Center in Salt Lake City and various other entities.
To say the Church is not a tax payer is a false statement.
On the other hand, the poll tax was made unconstitutional in the 1960s and since that time people who do not pay any taxes have been allowed to vote and participate in politics in other ways, so to claim that paying taxes is a requirement to participate in politics is to argue for a position in direct oposition to the Constitution of the United States as currently written.
Actually The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of the major taxpayers in Utah. It owns several companies and other organizations that pay taxes, including DeseretBook, the Deseret News, a land development arm that is building the City Creek Center in Salt Lake City and various other entities.
To say the Church is not a tax payer is a false statement.
On the other hand, the poll tax was made unconstitutional in the 1960s and since that time people who do not pay any taxes have been allowed to vote and participate in politics in other ways, so to claim that paying taxes is a requirement to participate in politics is to argue for a position in direct oposition to the Constitution of the United States as currently written.
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