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No shock: We're last in per-pupil spending
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Tre | 4:43 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009
Our students have done remarkably well despite the wpu; this is a reflection of
supportive parents and educators. But, upon review of our past and present
national test scores, there is an obvious decline of those test scores that
seems to coincide with the limited growth of the wpu. It is short-sighted to
believe that test scores will remain high or improve when physical facilities
are uncomfortable (ever try to concentrate in a non-AC office, without windows,
surrounded by 30-50 people), materials are in short supply, and staff/faculty
are short-handed or not qualified to teach.
Most schools have removed drink/treat vending machines from their lunchrooms. The decrease in revenue has been detrimental to many afterschool programs such as tutoring, credit recovery, remediation, or the fine arts. What will happen if all schools in Utah are required to take a 15% cut in their budgets? What programs/teachers/materials will be cut then?
BTW: Not all students who take advantage of released time are registered for LDS Seminary. High school students who have planned their credits carefully may be attending a community college, working, or taking a reduced schedule.
Most schools have removed drink/treat vending machines from their lunchrooms. The decrease in revenue has been detrimental to many afterschool programs such as tutoring, credit recovery, remediation, or the fine arts. What will happen if all schools in Utah are required to take a 15% cut in their budgets? What programs/teachers/materials will be cut then?
BTW: Not all students who take advantage of released time are registered for LDS Seminary. High school students who have planned their credits carefully may be attending a community college, working, or taking a reduced schedule.
Anonymous | 4:43 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009
WE ARE NOT THE TOP 5% OF HOUSEHOLD INCOME SPENT!!!
NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!
NOT EVEN CLOSE!!!
Comments continue below
lynn | 4:50 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009
What does the average teacher get paid per hour?
Tre | 5:23 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009
lynn, that is a good question. The answer is usually the salary plus benefits.
This is not an accurate accounting of what a teacher is paid. No other
profession adds the cost of benefits when reporting salary. Also, an average is
deceiving -- a first year teacher with one degree has a lower salary than a
veteran teacher with multiple or higher level degrees.
Razoo and Anonymous, I couldn't care less if Utahn's are "in the top 5 in the percent of household income spent on public education" or close to that number. If parents are having children they should provide physically, emotionally, and FINANCIALLY for those children. Public education should remain open to all our children, and should be supported by all who benefit from an educated society (everyone). However, those who "contribute" more children to the system should contribute more financially as well.
Our state constitution provides a free education K-6, with limited fees and fines for 7-12. To require those who have school-aged children to pay more of the educational expenses (such as a head tax or limited child tax deduction), a constitutional amendment is necessary prior to that change in policy.
Razoo and Anonymous, I couldn't care less if Utahn's are "in the top 5 in the percent of household income spent on public education" or close to that number. If parents are having children they should provide physically, emotionally, and FINANCIALLY for those children. Public education should remain open to all our children, and should be supported by all who benefit from an educated society (everyone). However, those who "contribute" more children to the system should contribute more financially as well.
Our state constitution provides a free education K-6, with limited fees and fines for 7-12. To require those who have school-aged children to pay more of the educational expenses (such as a head tax or limited child tax deduction), a constitutional amendment is necessary prior to that change in policy.
Tre | 5:24 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009
I wonder, with all this cold weather we are having - hibernating in our homes
and under warm quilts, will we have an increase of kindergarteners in five
years? Just a thought...
Anonymous | 6:47 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009
The problem with calculating pay per hour is that teachers get laid off every
year for 3 months.
Then they work for a few hours each night at home.
So if you take a beginning teacher making $30,000 for 189 days. 189 days times 8 hours a day = 1512 hours worked. $30,000/1512 = comes out to $19.84 per hour.
However you add in two more weeks (probably more) of summer work time and inservice hours and you decrease it to $18.84/hr.
Now add in two hours they spend per night preparing and grading and you get $15.22/hr.
That is $15/hr but they are laid off for 90 days a year. So basically a beginning teacher will make about the same as a fast food worker who has 4 years experience.
Doesn't sound so good does it? That is for a very tough job and a 4 year college degree.
No wonder we don't have as many teachers as we need.
Then they work for a few hours each night at home.
So if you take a beginning teacher making $30,000 for 189 days. 189 days times 8 hours a day = 1512 hours worked. $30,000/1512 = comes out to $19.84 per hour.
However you add in two more weeks (probably more) of summer work time and inservice hours and you decrease it to $18.84/hr.
Now add in two hours they spend per night preparing and grading and you get $15.22/hr.
That is $15/hr but they are laid off for 90 days a year. So basically a beginning teacher will make about the same as a fast food worker who has 4 years experience.
Doesn't sound so good does it? That is for a very tough job and a 4 year college degree.
No wonder we don't have as many teachers as we need.
Dexter | 7:04 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009
PEOPLE YOU ARE LOOSING SIGHT OF THE BIG PICTURE
Try to understand this from a business perspective. It is getting increasingly difficult for Utah teachers to live and teach in Utah--a rising cost of living, stagnant wages, and a complacent legislature. Teachers are leaving because there are better paying jobs elsewhere... I should know, I am one of them. The argument that teachers will stay in/come to Utah because of a better quality of life is a tired and bankrupt notion. Put a warm body in the classroom and keep telling yourself everything is okay--I can't wait to hear back from you 10, 15 years from now on the state of public education in Utah. Talented, dedicated teachers are second only to a stable, supportive family in determining academic success.
When a business can no longer retain the same level of talent as its competitors, it lags, and ultimately fails.
Where is the vision?
Try to understand this from a business perspective. It is getting increasingly difficult for Utah teachers to live and teach in Utah--a rising cost of living, stagnant wages, and a complacent legislature. Teachers are leaving because there are better paying jobs elsewhere... I should know, I am one of them. The argument that teachers will stay in/come to Utah because of a better quality of life is a tired and bankrupt notion. Put a warm body in the classroom and keep telling yourself everything is okay--I can't wait to hear back from you 10, 15 years from now on the state of public education in Utah. Talented, dedicated teachers are second only to a stable, supportive family in determining academic success.
When a business can no longer retain the same level of talent as its competitors, it lags, and ultimately fails.
Where is the vision?
A MODEST PROPOSAL | 7:49 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009
In that we are doing so well spending so little, we should spend even less which
should obviously promote even greater gains in student performance.
Eventually we will spend nothing. Teachers will have to pay to teach. Taxpayers and Legislators will finally be off the hook.
With apologies to Jonathan Swift, the ideas above come firmly with tongue planted securly in cheek.
Eventually we will spend nothing. Teachers will have to pay to teach. Taxpayers and Legislators will finally be off the hook.
With apologies to Jonathan Swift, the ideas above come firmly with tongue planted securly in cheek.
Republicans hate public educatio | 8:16 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009
Our state legislature has tried for years to destroy public education. The lack
of spending is just one of those ways. As a pubic school teacher in Utah, I wish
our state government would just make up its mind about public ed. Either do what
is right and find real ways to fix education (not the business models they have
pushed the last few years) or put public education out of its misery and
privatize all schools. Since Utah Republicans want to privatize everything, why
don't they just do it?
At least with a pure private education system I would be able to work at the school of my choice and get paid what I deserve. Of course that means not every child would be given a decent and basic education. Since a private education system would benefit the wealthy over the poor. The rich get a good/great education and the poor get a 3rd world education.
At least with a pure private education system I would be able to work at the school of my choice and get paid what I deserve. Of course that means not every child would be given a decent and basic education. Since a private education system would benefit the wealthy over the poor. The rich get a good/great education and the poor get a 3rd world education.
East Side | 8:21 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009
Only about 30% of adults in my community graduated from college (they are native
Utahns), but they will tell you how much they "value education."
Utahns do not value education. Is it any wonder the schools are so poorly
funded? Utahns spend more money on ATVs than they do on college degrees.
It's pathetic.
Chad | 8:33 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009
...yet we continue to perform well above average in national testing. Why is
the goal to spend the most money? Money does not equal quality in education.
We should be praising an education system that can perform better than most
other states with far less money. It's like buying a Ferrari for the price
of a Toyota!
Jess | 9:06 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009
Re. Questions. Yes, spending more can improve education, but only if the money
is well spent. The hightest priority should be reducing class sizes especially
in the primary grades. Any time an elementary class is over 15 students, the
students suffer. This has been shown repeatedly.
Also, we talk alot about paying the better teachers more but that is not the answer. As a former school principal at both elementary and secondary levels, I know what a waste of time and $ it is to have a few a poor teachers on the staff. Almost any school could be greatly improved if the principal could be permitted to eliminate the bottom 10% of his teachers and replace them with competent teachers. But, the NEA/UEA won't allow this.
Another way educational funds could be better used is to completely eliminate interschool sports. These programs cost a lot and there is little if any benefit (some studies show character damage) to the few students to do participate.
As long as Utah (or any state) employs incompetent teachers, wastes money on school sports and overcrowds their classrooms, we can't expect much from our schools.
Also, we talk alot about paying the better teachers more but that is not the answer. As a former school principal at both elementary and secondary levels, I know what a waste of time and $ it is to have a few a poor teachers on the staff. Almost any school could be greatly improved if the principal could be permitted to eliminate the bottom 10% of his teachers and replace them with competent teachers. But, the NEA/UEA won't allow this.
Another way educational funds could be better used is to completely eliminate interschool sports. These programs cost a lot and there is little if any benefit (some studies show character damage) to the few students to do participate.
As long as Utah (or any state) employs incompetent teachers, wastes money on school sports and overcrowds their classrooms, we can't expect much from our schools.
Clare | 9:20 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009
So shocking! I'm a teacher! Please try to keep our elementary classes
below 30 kids. It gets really difficult to teach if we go above that number! I
can tell that Anonymous is probably a helicopter parent. They stand outside and
listen as we teach. Some of them even come into our classrooms and demand our
attention when we are in the middle of a lesson. (Just a little venting!)
If you want a say in your school, join the community council. They have A LOT of imput when it comes to our school. They even decide where we should spend much of our state/federal money. The parents on these committees are awesome! Get involved!
If you want a say in your school, join the community council. They have A LOT of imput when it comes to our school. They even decide where we should spend much of our state/federal money. The parents on these committees are awesome! Get involved!
Tanner | 9:41 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009
I agree with Jess in regards to the problem of poor teachers. I, also, am an
educator and am constantly amazed at some of the teachers on our staff. They
are, flatly put, incompetent. However, because they are tenured and members of
UEA/NEA, they are virtually impossible to remove from their positions, short of
doing something criminal. No business can hope to be successful or competitive
if they cannot manage their employees and eliminate those that underperform. No
school can hope to provide a truly high quality education while they are forced
to wait for the retirement of bad teachers.
You want higher quality education and more "bang for the tax-payer buck"? Get rid of tenure.
You want higher quality education and more "bang for the tax-payer buck"? Get rid of tenure.
lovetoteach | 9:57 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009
Anonymous 6:47
Thank you!! I love the break down! As a veteran teacher I still continue to spend a minimum of 10 hours per week on top of your calculation. Just over the Christmas break I averaged 25 hours-all in prep for my students.
I love what I do but worry how much more can be expected of teachers- each year just a little bit more is added to our plate without taking away anything. How much donated time and money is enough??
Thank you!! I love the break down! As a veteran teacher I still continue to spend a minimum of 10 hours per week on top of your calculation. Just over the Christmas break I averaged 25 hours-all in prep for my students.
I love what I do but worry how much more can be expected of teachers- each year just a little bit more is added to our plate without taking away anything. How much donated time and money is enough??
Carson | 11:13 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009
Missing from the discussion, not surprisingly, is how Utah does not provide
(much less fund) K-12 arts education. For example, Choral and Instrumental
programs taught by music specialists (let's hope) don't start in many
cases until as late as 7th grade. That's hardly in line with national
standards as defined by the National Association of Music Education. But coming
into compliance would mean we'd actually have to spend money to hire people
full time and purchase all the necessary equipment. We wouldn't want the
per-pupil cost to go up. Being thrifty is more important than the quality of the
education received. So much for all those phony mission statements.
Teacher | 11:49 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009
Yes, there are some horrible teachers out there, but Utah teachers'
salaries rank near the bottom of the country. Great teachers leave and go to
states that pay better, if they can. We're lucky some great teachers
choose to stay, but it should surprise no one that with the low pay offered here
in Utah, many teachers leave. Many principals have to hire or keep bad
teachers; there aren't enough good ones to fill the vacancies. Utah needs
to pay what neighboring states pay, at the very least.
Karen | 12:16 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
Well, Jess, I'm glad you are a FORMER principal. I guess you don't
know that principals already have the power to remove a "bad"
teacher--it just takes some work on the part of the principal! It's called
due process and gathering your proof.
The UEA is NOT in favor of protecting so-called bad teachers because of tenure. We want all teachers to be excellent. It is, in fact, a federal law that mandates due process, which is a good thing. Every teacher has had whiney parents and obnoxious students at the same time as being considered the best teacher in the world by other parents and students. Teaching is not a popularity contest, and teachers should be protected from the political whims and popularity games of some parents and principals.
By the way, while Utah's average scores usually come out above 50%, there has indeed been a steady drop over the past decade. Our student population is changing and they cost more to educate adequately.
The UEA is NOT in favor of protecting so-called bad teachers because of tenure. We want all teachers to be excellent. It is, in fact, a federal law that mandates due process, which is a good thing. Every teacher has had whiney parents and obnoxious students at the same time as being considered the best teacher in the world by other parents and students. Teaching is not a popularity contest, and teachers should be protected from the political whims and popularity games of some parents and principals.
By the way, while Utah's average scores usually come out above 50%, there has indeed been a steady drop over the past decade. Our student population is changing and they cost more to educate adequately.
Teacher Mom | 12:28 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
In April I will be graduating as an education major, from Utah State. Utahns
need to wake up to the fact that there are not very many of us. In our fall
student teaching seminar I counted about 65 of us. For a big university this is
quite small! I have seen many comment on the coushy job teachers have, but I
have found out for myself that unless you pull yourself away, this job is never
ending.
I have learned for myself that teachers average 10-12 hr days with no breaks and very little down time.
FYI...In one of my classes, our instructor told us flat out that if we wanted to teach make sure to either have a part time job on the side, or not be the sole bread winner in our families. Pretty sad for a 4yr degree.
Why did I choose education? Because I feel that I can make a difference in the lives of children... maybe one of yours.
I have learned for myself that teachers average 10-12 hr days with no breaks and very little down time.
FYI...In one of my classes, our instructor told us flat out that if we wanted to teach make sure to either have a part time job on the side, or not be the sole bread winner in our families. Pretty sad for a 4yr degree.
Why did I choose education? Because I feel that I can make a difference in the lives of children... maybe one of yours.
K | 7:59 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
Teachers are salary based on 9 months work, so this pay per hour and layoff
analogys are not really relevant. A construction worker is a seasonal employee,
lot of people are. And do extra at night. It's a stretch enough to do
something else in the summer but not for the year round school people. Also not
considered is the benefits a teacher gets. Very few professions guarantee a job
after a few years of service or at all with this tenure nonsense. Tenure makes
it harder to remove an incapable teacher.
Most health care professionals also work long days, have to pay out of pocket for their medical as most medical office practices fall under small business and are not required to provide a medical plan. It's far more than what a teacher pays on a paystub. Medical professionals also have huge expenses for malpractice insurance and must pay to take classes to keep their licenses current.
What I don't understand is the complaining of teachers about their chosen career. They have a degree and know how to get more training; why don't they leave and get a better paying job? Teaching is a good job.
Most health care professionals also work long days, have to pay out of pocket for their medical as most medical office practices fall under small business and are not required to provide a medical plan. It's far more than what a teacher pays on a paystub. Medical professionals also have huge expenses for malpractice insurance and must pay to take classes to keep their licenses current.
What I don't understand is the complaining of teachers about their chosen career. They have a degree and know how to get more training; why don't they leave and get a better paying job? Teaching is a good job.
Anonymous | 11:46 a.m. Jan. 8, 2009
K,
What does a construction worker do extra at night?
There is no such thing as tenure in Utah. It doesn't exist except at the Universities.
You really are full of bad information.
The pay per hour is very relevant. It is the difference between working one job or two. I don't want my kids teachers moonlighting.
Leave and get a better paying job is the most idiotic thing a person can tell teachers.
You should be begging them to stay and trying to make it better for them.
You are the old way of thinking that has torn apart the system.
The new way of thinking is finally taking over. We are making improvements and praising our teachers for what they do, not belittling them for what they do.
What does a construction worker do extra at night?
There is no such thing as tenure in Utah. It doesn't exist except at the Universities.
You really are full of bad information.
The pay per hour is very relevant. It is the difference between working one job or two. I don't want my kids teachers moonlighting.
Leave and get a better paying job is the most idiotic thing a person can tell teachers.
You should be begging them to stay and trying to make it better for them.
You are the old way of thinking that has torn apart the system.
The new way of thinking is finally taking over. We are making improvements and praising our teachers for what they do, not belittling them for what they do.
K | 5:43 p.m. Jan. 8, 2009
Construction workers are season. Lots of other jobs (other than teaching)
require work done extra at night. When you are salary, you are not paid by the
hour. It's a 200 word limit, I see how my first post was confusing.
Tenure- There is no such thing, yet it exists?
My argument is if a teacher has a four year degree and could make more in any other field, why don't they do something in another field? It makes no sense to work at a job when you don't like the pay and have the intellegence and training to make more if you are unhappy about it. Happiness!
I am tired of praising an unhappy person who makes more than me and lots of others with the same or less amount of education. Although I have made less than a teacher, with a MLIS, I don't complain about my salary. I don't complain if I worked more than 8 hours a day cause as a salary employee it doesn't matter. It's the terms of the field chosen and I agreed to the terms. I could always do something else. This isn't feudal Europe where we don't have choices.
Tenure- There is no such thing, yet it exists?
My argument is if a teacher has a four year degree and could make more in any other field, why don't they do something in another field? It makes no sense to work at a job when you don't like the pay and have the intellegence and training to make more if you are unhappy about it. Happiness!
I am tired of praising an unhappy person who makes more than me and lots of others with the same or less amount of education. Although I have made less than a teacher, with a MLIS, I don't complain about my salary. I don't complain if I worked more than 8 hours a day cause as a salary employee it doesn't matter. It's the terms of the field chosen and I agreed to the terms. I could always do something else. This isn't feudal Europe where we don't have choices.
Anonymous | 10:02 p.m. Jan. 8, 2009
The real problem here is that teachers can't go to their boss and ask for a
raise when they deserve it.
They have to beg the legislature for money. If they approve it then gets sent to the district office. The district office then finds some "new program" or "new need" and sends the money elsewhere.
There is no way for a teacher to go out and work for the money they deserve.
They have to beg the legislature for money. If they approve it then gets sent to the district office. The district office then finds some "new program" or "new need" and sends the money elsewhere.
There is no way for a teacher to go out and work for the money they deserve.
Anonymous | 10:04 p.m. Jan. 8, 2009
Define tenure for me. I think K is saying a teacher gets tenure and can never
be fired. There is no tenure in Utah education. After 3 years you get a level
2 license. That doesn't change anything. Tenure is some obscure idea that
keeps being propagated but it is just a myth.
Parent x | 10:00 a.m. Jan. 9, 2009
Really it is THAT easy to get rid of bad teachers? In my experience they just
seem to be shuffled from one school to the next. My son had a horrible teacher
and even after all the parents called the principal and the district, they let
her complete the school year (months and months) before they "invited her
to retire." The damage was done in that one year has taken some of us
parents a few years to undo.
Yeah the UEA makes it SOOOO easy to get rid of bad teachers.
Yeah the UEA makes it SOOOO easy to get rid of bad teachers.
Tre | 11:06 a.m. Jan. 9, 2009
I think the confusion of tenure and public educators is in teachers being
"Provisional" (years 1-3, Level 1 license) and
"Non-Provisional" (years 4+, Level 2 license). ANY teacher can be
terminated from employment after due process is followed. Other than from being
surplussed, no teacher's employment is protected based on years taught.
Teachers do not work a nine month contract; they work a specific number of days (188-189 depending on the district). Teachers do not receive vacation pay or paid holidays, and lose any accrued sick leave that exceeds 180 days or when the employment ends.
I heard a comedian say that the difference between a job and a career is that on a job the employee is looking at the clock waiting for the shift to end, someone with a career never leaves the job -- the employee stays late and is nearly always thinking about what needs to be done. Teaching is a low-paying career, not a job.
Teachers do not work a nine month contract; they work a specific number of days (188-189 depending on the district). Teachers do not receive vacation pay or paid holidays, and lose any accrued sick leave that exceeds 180 days or when the employment ends.
I heard a comedian say that the difference between a job and a career is that on a job the employee is looking at the clock waiting for the shift to end, someone with a career never leaves the job -- the employee stays late and is nearly always thinking about what needs to be done. Teaching is a low-paying career, not a job.
Anonymous | 11:26 a.m. Jan. 9, 2009
It shouldn't be easy to get rid of a teacher.
But it shouldn't be hard either.
The problem is one parent might find a teacher "horrible" but another will find that teacher to be excellent.
It can't be arbitrary.
But it shouldn't be hard either.
The problem is one parent might find a teacher "horrible" but another will find that teacher to be excellent.
It can't be arbitrary.
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The figure is simply a propaganda tool, to squeeze more tax money out of the taxpayer, and to lie to us, basically, by inferring we're not supportive of public education; not doing our fair share.
The greatest indicator of barometer education working is support from home. Both parents, when possible, to be fully invested in our children's education. That's what makes for a "successful" education.