Deseret News | Reader comments: No shock: We're last in per-pupil spending

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Utah last in per-pupil spending

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Mahershalalhashbaz | 3:31 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

It just goes to show money spent has nothing to do with results. What is the most important result of education? Quality of life, and Utah is #1 in that area. Our economy rocks the rest of the country. Enough said. The other states spending more gets them no observable benefit. California spends nearly the most per student, and look at their worthless economy. Their government is nearly bankrupt, and their cost of living is out of control. Utah is the best at everything apparently. Including thriftiness. And that is smart.

Anonymous | 4:26 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

Last again.

We make excuses but we could fix this problem if it really mattered to us.

Instead we buy more SUVs and build more McMansions.

Pathetic.

Four times a year | 4:38 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

We hear this at least four times a year, once at least from

- National Center for Education Statistics
- Census Bureau
- Utah Foundation
- Somebody else

Comments continue below

Stack | 5:02 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

Stack Em' Deep and Teach Em' Cheap!! Utah buys a Yugo, gets a Buick, and complains it's not a Cadillac.

Former Utah-ard | 5:27 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

We won't move back to Utah due to this very fact. Class sizes are larger than most states and "accepting" the fact that Utah underfunds education exposes the myopia of the legislature and Board of Education. Park lands and other non-revenue generation areas? Give me a break. Utah has gotten by on so little for so long that they don't want to re-evaluate how education is funded.

Rand Hendersxon | 6:06 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

Just once I would like to see one of these funding studies take into account that we have a large percentage of our students out one period a day for released time religious instruction. If the funding studies took that into account Utah would likely not be last. As a great man once said, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Shame on people who knowingly use this legerdemain. Some of us are not fooled.

Laura | 6:51 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

Rand, yes we would.

And we are not #1 in results. We are about in the 48th percentile.

The reason we don't do better is because no one wants to hurt the feelings of our neighbors - the teachers. It's not about the teachers. The teachers do a fantastic job with what they have and what they give out of their own pockets (SHAME). What it's about is a legislative base who has consistently under funded our schools. That's all there is to this.

As much as we hate the idea, we also need to have more kids in private school. The nation is at about 10%. We are far below this. That makes a world of difference. But, the good people of Utah were handed a load of garbage regarding vouchers....and ended up stabbing themselves in the foot there.

We have a mess.

But, as I home taught my kids for so many years, I was told over and over that school is about the social....I was ridiculed constantly. So, why are y'all worrying about the education? It's really just about the social, right?

The hypocrisy from our elected LDS leaders BLOWS my mind. Always has, always will.

Just wondering? | 6:53 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

How do they figure the amount spent per pupil? Do they just use the WPUs or do they take into account district level property takes and such? Why don't they report on how the figure is calculated?

UTAH IS #1 | 7:12 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

We might be the last in the nation in per-pupil spending.

But we are #1 in bankruptcy rates!

We are the best of the best when it comes to economic failure.

A connection between the two statistics?

Backwards | 7:38 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

Rand, I think you have it backwards. If we were to eliminate release time from the schedule, it would in fact necessitate the hiring of about 10-12% more teachers or increase class size to far past the rediculous numbers we already have. Essentially, what release time does is takes about 60-70% of the grade 9-12 students out of school for a class period and puts them where someone else pays the teacher's salary. Release time actually saves Utah an incredible amount of money, allowing us to take our $5,963 and spread it over 5 classes instead of 6.

Anonymous | 7:41 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

Good for Utah, keep it that way. Most of the education dollar is wasted anyway. And most of what is taught in the public schools is wrong anyway, so that "learning" has to be later undone. Keep the per pupil amount where it is, and bring back the vouchers. Why do we kowtow to public education anyway, it is so bad, and controlled by everyone but the parents.

From the results | 7:46 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

. . . we get, it sounds like we are spending about the right amount. What's all the fuss?

I'm sure UEA will use this figure to attempt to shame us into spending more. But that would only enrich them without any particular benefit to the system.

Like I said, saounds like the amount is about right.

Lynn in TN | 7:47 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

And just where does Utah rate in academic achievement, college graduates, etc. Some things just don't take money.

Mark | 8:15 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

You are all ignoring the second assertion of the article, that ELL students are rapidly increasing. Utah has been able to do more with less because we were not experiencing the problems brought on by multicultural issues. Well, that day is ending.

ELL students cost MORE to educate than the average student. They increase the load on teachers and require much more individual attention than traditional students. And I will get booed for this, but certain demographics of ELL students are connected with increased crime, drug abuse and teen pregnancy.

Vouchers, home schooling and WPU discussions are just whistling in the dark. Our culture and society is about to undergo a catastrophic shift and no one is braced for the impact.

RE: Laura | 8:20 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

What do the LDS leaders have to do with this?

Dear Anonymous | 8:24 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

We buy more SUVs and more McMansions? Quit trying to steal my money!!!! Yes, we have a lot of children in Utah families. Instead of looking at one statistic -- the amount of per pupil spending -- why not look at a more honest statistic -- the amount of per capita spending in the state. Then use the per capita spending as a percentage of the average income in the state. Compare all states and see what percentage of our income is spent on education.

I'm tired of the teachers being the only ones that write a response to this. Yes, they do a fantastic job with what they have and they spend their own money. However, money doesn't grow on trees and we are spending a good deal of our money on education. You will ALWAYS find it convenient to look at the per pupil spending as a way to ask for more money. However, let's see how much we are spending per capita and how that stacks up percentage wise against other states. We will always need dedicated teachers that understand our situation with large families.

Anonymous | 8:28 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

Anybody that says we are getting it right and is satisfied with the results we are getting, needs to wake up.

We have a very large amount of teachers closing in on retirement.

Our Universities are training enough new teachers if those teachers would stay in Utah. Unfortunately they don't.

Each of the last few years the shortage has become worse. If we don't boost starting pay by about another $10,000 we won't keep seeing the results we get now.

I'm not saying all teachers need that kind of raise but beginning teachers sure do if we are going to fill the gaps.

Shocking | 8:36 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

This article would worry me if per-pupil spending were an indication of educational success.

Fortunately it is not.

K | 8:39 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

It's amazing how parochial schools, particularly Catholic schools can do so much better with a fraction of the money the public schools get. What is amazing is how little of that $5,963 is spent on direct classroom expenses. A class of 21 kids generates over $125,000. And some classes are larger resulting in more revenue. But the individual classroom receives little of that money. Say a teacher makes $50,000 in salary and benefits, what happened to the other $75,000? School lunches, administrative, other support staff and busing, although I wonder how many kids need busing. Keeps parents away from their kids school when students travel a distance to attend. The parents are still expected to pay fees for tech and books on top of all that, not to mention school supplies...

To: Anonymous at 7:41 | 8:36 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

No, we should not keep it that way.

We should look at what other states are doing. Specifically those states that are out-performing Utah.

Utah does not have the corner on the market for academic success.

Vouchers are not the answer. If you don't want your kid to attend public school. Pay for it yourself.

I don't work in public education, but I see the societal value in a solid public education system.

The problem is that Utah does not invest in infastructure, and I count education as an infastructure investment. Utah has slid in academic performance just as spending has slipped.

The best comment of the day:

"Utah is #1 in Bankruptcies!"

That has got to be the best comment ever!

Borjas | 9:12 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

I applaud Utah in the equalibrium of the district funding. However many educated professionals leave the state due to the education system that is subpar financially and acedemically. 7th graders that only have one set of books per classroom and elementary's that can't afford team teachers for 20 students in the younger grades. These are all areas that are a non issue in other states.

Oh, another thing, Utah imports most of the eventual college graduates from Cali, Virginia, etc. due to the mormons wanting to be with other mormons. I myself came from Kansas and left for Texas when I saw the condition of the schools for my children.

Per capita spending | 9:57 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

I did a quick Google search, and the Public Policy Institute of New York State reports that Utah ranks 30th in total per capita spending on education, 6th on higher ed and 46th on elementary and secondary education. That was in 2005-06 though.

Schools need a minimum amount of money to perform well, but at a certain point money doesn't matter. What matters more than anything is parents. Parents are the key to successful education.

Parents important | 9:58 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

I repeat...

The influence of parents is the most important indicator of the success of a child's education.

No sum of money, special program, or star teacher can compensate for failure in the home.

Blaine Nay | 10:03 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

Some people (especially teachers and their union leaders) are horrified by the fact that Utah pays a mere $6,000 to educate each student. I ask those people to do some simple math. That figure works out to about $180,000 per classroom of 30. Teachers get only 15-20% of the total cost of education. Where is the rest of the money going? I suggest paying the full $180k directly to teachers and have them pay all necessary overhead. I guarantee their takehome pay will go up substantially and education will improve.

DR Don | 10:08 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

It is time for those who utilize the educational system the most to pay their fair share - eliminate, or at least reduce, the state income tax deductions for children. It is inequitable that a childless couple pays more into the educational system than a couple with 4 school-age children.

jackhp | 10:38 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

re: Just wondering?

If you look at the sources for the report you'll find that the figures are derived from the NCES report "Revenues and Expenditures for Public Elementary and Secondary Education: School Year 2005-06 (Fiscal Year 2006)"

In that report you'll find that total revenues are derived from local, state and federal sources.

Gettingthefactstraight | 10:42 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

California DOES NOT have the highest per pupil spending, not even close. California school funding was heavily reduced by Prop 13 tax reduction passed in 1978 and has never recovered.

Proud Mary | 10:44 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

Mark | 8:15 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

Thanks for the truth!!! Most Excellent!!!

The real truth | 11:02 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

The demographics in Utah have not changed and we were not always dead last. Back in the 80's and 90's, we ranked much better and had an even higher birthrate. This is just an excuse for a lack of commitment to education. Big houses and nice freeways and towering businesses are our priorities now.

What planet are you on | 11:08 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

Re K: Have you looked at the tuition rates for the best private schools in the state: Juan Diego, Judge Memorial, and Waterford. Their tuition rates are much higher than what the average Utah pupil receives. You get what you pay for.

NOT SURPRISED | 11:05 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

Has ANYONE . . . EVER read an article where YOUR state or local school is NOT under-performing & under-funded?

I just read the parent editorial from which this article was derived. 10 states got a B grade; 35 (including Utah) got a C grade; and, 4 states got a D grade. There were no A or F grades. The high score was 84; the low score 68.

Okay, so educators do not understand statistics or standardized distributions, and grade in an arbitrary manner. That should not surprise anyone who has attended public schools. The article focus is NOT that Utah is above the average; rather that even above average is sub-standard and Utah is not doing enough for education.

Of course, EVERYONE states the need for more money for an improve Utah ranking. NO ONE has discussed the ridiculous & self-serving evaluation standards for the GRADES.

The BEST states: have EQUALITY in funds distribution between districts, demonstrate EQUALITY in student achievement, & spend the most per-capita/or % of state budget.

How about a survey of: standardized test scores, graduation rates, graduates accepted to college, minority student performance, drop-out rates, and; ACHIEVEMENT per DOLLAR SPENT? Not likely.

NOT SURPRISED | 11:16 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

NOT SURPRISED

Has ANYONE . . . EVER read an article where a state or local school is NOT under-performing & under-funded?

I just read the parent editorial from which this article was derived. 10 states got a B grade; 35 (including Utah) got a C grade; and, 4 states got a D grade. There were no A or F grades. The high score was 84; the low score 68.

Okay, so educators do not understand statistics or standardized distributions, & grade in an arbitrary manner. That should not surprise anyone who has attended public schools. The article focus is NOT that Utah is above the average; rather that even above average is sub-standard and Utah is not doing enough for education.

Of course, EVERYONE says that more money is needed to improve education. NO ONE discusses the ridiculous & self-serving survey evaluation standards. The BEST states: have EQUALITY in funds distribution between districts, demonstrate EQUALITY in student achievement, & spend the most per-capita/or % of state budget.

How about a survey of: standardized test scores, graduation rates, graduates accepted to college, minority student performance, drop-out rates, and; ACHIEVEMENT per DOLLAR SPENT? Not likely.

Other side of the coin | 11:21 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

I have not seen recent data, but as of a few years ago, I believe that while we were last in Per Pupil spending, we were first in percent of Gross State Product spent on education. I too would like to see more funding for education. I don't always agree with legislative budgeting decisions, but to be fair, the large number of children in Utah creates a unique circumstance. We spend a larger percent of our budget on education than most states, which, when divided by the large number of students, still leaves at the bottom on a per pupil basis. There is only so much money to go round. Increasing education funding means decreasing funding elsewhere. It's always easy to criticize- much more difficult to actually have to divide money between many competing worthy needs. Having said all this, I strongly feel that we need more education funding and that we need to work to utilize that funding more efficiently. Teachers do deserve better pay given the responsibilities we place on their shoulders.

Re: Rand | 11:27 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

Rand makes an excellent point. If a large portion of our students are in Seminary for one period out of the day. That means we should spend less per pupil. This doesn't completely close the gap but it makes sense that $6000 will go a lot farther if a student is in class 6 periods a day rather than 7.

Ironically many people blame the LDS church for our educaiton funding, yet if the LDS church eliminated the Seminary program it would literally break the back of our public education system as well as our economy...

Martha, T.O., California | 11:31 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

California schools have been dumbed down across the state because we have the greatest illegal alien invasion in America. Individuals who live in L.A. County paid over $1 billion last year for all the services, including education for the illegal aliens. This year it will top $2 billion for LA County residents. My n'hood blue ribbon school up the street is closing due to falling enrollment, as because of the poor quality of education, families are moving from the state--Try to sell your home in this kind of situation! "Benedict" Arnold, our governor, ripped $5 billion from Ca. school budget because our state is bankrupt taking care of all services, including education for the illegal aliens.

Anonymous | 11:37 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

The released time issue is becoming even more difficult for the public education system. The state has had lots of students using released time in the past and therefore class size in grades 9-12 was much lower. With the change in culture and religion, our school system is now bursting with higher class loads and fewer students wanting released time.

We must open our eyes to the changes and begin to look for new methods to lower class sizes. When schools went to four periods per day at the secondary level, they chose to increase class sizes by over 3 students per period. (Teachers teach the same number of students on an eight period/four per day schedule, but crowd in the extra students to have two preparation periods/one per day.) With fewer students taking released time the numbers go up. How about going back to 7 period days or is that too ridiculous for educators to grasp! And yes, I am an educator.

Henry Drummond | 11:48 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

I get so tired of hearing about "family values" in this state and then seeing how poorly they fund education. Isn't it time to figure out that if you are going to have 50% more children than the national average that something is going to have to give?

A. Teacher | 11:53 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

School funding is much like the weather, everyone complains about it but no one ever does anything about it.

In the past Utah produced, due to its family oriented population, a surplus of teachers. If things went bad, being a teacher made it easier for a single mom to raise a family. This is no longer the case. Now days there are professions that are just as family friendly as teaching, but pay much more. In fact that is the case for most professions.

It used to be "back in the day" that women were generally accepted into only two college educated professions, teaching and nursing. Now all professions are open to them, and so many of the best are not going into education.

For men going into education, there is often a suspicion that they are incompetent or perverts. So education with its very low pay and status is unable to attract the best male teachers, or even poor ones for that matter.

Due to these problems Universities are not producing enough teachers, nor are there enough in the general population willing to change professions. That is why the governor went to Mexico in 2007 looking for teachers.

Anonymous | 11:56 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

We live in the South East. Beleive me, I wish our schools were as good as Utah schools. We lived in Utah many years before we were transfered here. By the way, our property taxes are almost double that of what an equivalent home in Utah would be. I am told we need to look no further than the North East for even higher taxes. The schools there are great, but at quite a property tax hike. Appreciate what you have, you could have high property taxes and poor schools.

Dewey Wilson | 11:58 a.m. Jan. 7, 2009

This must explain why when Mormons in Wisconsin move back to Utah, they find that their kids can coast for a couple of years because they have already learned the information being taught in their grade level in Utah.

K | 12:24 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009

What Planet,

I am talking parochial schools, not private schools. And I'm not necessarily talking about one state either. In most states were you have parochial schools and public schools the public schools get 3-4 times the amount per student than the parochial school tuition and their test results are better.And some kids go for free.

You could say they do more fundraising but public schools are doing that also to get more equipment like computer's and books into the school/libraries. Both have fees to cover books which in elementary school doesn't mean they keep them, the school owns them you are renting but for workbooks. When you walk into each you see that the public schools have more stuff to fascilitate learning, cafeteria's, etc... It's not about the stuff.

Non religious based private schools are an entirely different matter.

Why doesn't the LDS church set up parochial schools like the Catholic church did and continues to maintain? Imagine how much less per student in every state if the parochial schools weren't there?

Where I live kids in public school don't leave for religious ed during school hours. Nights and weekends are when they go.

K | 12:29 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009

What school district in any state thinks they have too much money per pupil or that their teachers are paid enough or their class sizes are small enough? Anyone???

Mark | 12:59 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009

Aononymous 11:56 wrote:

"How about going back to 7 period days or is that too ridiculous for educators to grasp! And yes, I am an educator."

The 8-period block for high schools has become pretty standard throughout the country. Graduation requirements are based on it. 7 period days are a negative for AP classes, shop and technology classes, athletics and the arts.

Savings from transitioning back would be negligible. Remember that only high schools use the 8-period block. More teachers fit in the K-9 bracket.

Parent X | 12:59 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009

$100 in Utah can buy a boatload more than $100 in NY or California. Is that even considered?

Teachers here make on average above what the average Utah wage is. AND they get 3 months off and all red letter days on the calendar. Perks and benefits should amount to something, isn't that one of the reasons they went into education in the first place.

I like the idea of giving the $6000 directly to the educator (or at least directly to the local schools) and let them get the space and supplies paid for. There is WAY too much district overhead.

Vouchers are at least one of the solutions.
Every penny of state income tax goes to education. They fund everything else on sales, property and business taxes.

Throwing money at something does not always = a better product.

Local economy and cost of living needs to be taken into consideration when they use these statistics.
(and check the facts we are not #1 in bankruptcy that is one of those urban myths floating around the internet)

wallofvoodoo | 1:00 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009

Who is writing the stories today? Captain obvious.

RE: Per capita | 1:11 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009

46th??? Well, at least it isn't 50th. That's much better. By all means, let's spend the bare minimum on our children. Listen to yourself. If Mormons really care so much about their children why do they give so little to where they spend the majority of their time? I thought Mormons put a high value on education and their children specifically, my mistake.

Questions | 1:16 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009

- Exactly what does per-pupil spending have to do with anything except teacher pay (The UEA's main concern)?

- So why do we always use it as the main indicator of success in education?

- Is spending more ALWYAS better?

- Why do so many people focus on raising spending as the only way to improve education? Are you saying that the teachers we currently have aren't doing their best because they aren't payed enough? Or that if we payed them more they would start teaching better?

Smaller class sizes and higher teacher pay aren't the answer to every problem in education.

If more money... | 2:40 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009

doesn't equal a better education, then maybe we should spend less? Let's see how low we can go!

Signed,

Conservative Nutjob

Tre | 3:17 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009

It costs money to support an education system: buildings (maintenance, upkeep, building, heat, AC, lighting, water, security cameras and alarms, rodent/insect control, landscaping, transportation, tutoring, etc), administration (attendance, tracking, grading, technical, behaviour, court liaison, etc), faculty (teachers, aides, nurses, counselors, custodians, lunch workers, social workers, psychiatrists, etc), materials (textbooks, computers, PE/playground equipment, sound equipment, telephones, and consumables -- pencils, crayons, papers, workbooks, art supplies, etc). Schools also supply coats, shirts, pants, sanitary napkins/tampons, bandages, and other emergency items.

I have never known a school that did not have expenses, or could barter for goods and services. It is a disgrace that our state pays so little for a vital part of our childrens' lives. Even though many of our state's legislatures and citizens refuse to believe that the wpu does NOT cover public education's expenses, there IS a gap between what is provided in the schools' budgets and what is needed to meet the requirements of the core curriculum, building, materials, and staffing needs. When it comes to the classroom, we should be ashamed that the gap is covered out-of-pocket by the classroom teacher -- essentially, a paycut! Want better educational results? Make a commitment to education!

RE: Laura | 3:34 p.m. Jan. 7, 2009

A couple of things:

1) Where Utah ranks on education is a product of the factors considered and the relative (subjective) weighting applied to the data. In this instance, the source survey pronounces that Utah does not spend nearly enough but K-12 PERFORMANCE is above the national average . . . whatever either of these statement means.

2) You state that the hypocrisy of elected Mormon officials blows your mind . . . . Are Catholic, Baptist, Jews or atheists inherently and demonstrably better? That is about as ignorant and bigoted as stating Utah public schools do not do better because Mormon teachers are lazy. One has only to look at Congress to establish that a lack of integrity on the part of public officials has more to do with personality of those who seek public office these days than their professed religious affiliation.

Doug

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