Deseret News | Reader comments: FLDS mother wants jury to decide custody

Reader comments
FLDS mother requests jury for case

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Just Curious | 6:21 p.m. Jan. 5, 2009

Why doesn't Merril do something to help his child instead of hiding?

Rob | 6:39 p.m. Jan. 5, 2009

That makes me sick. To hide under a religion to do this. A picture is worth a thousand words.

Joey | 7:38 p.m. Jan. 5, 2009

Perhaps her mother doesn't believe she was abused because she wasn't. C'mon CPS what abuse exactly did the girl suffer? CPS wasn't specific in the hearing and they still aren't specific. They are hanging on to this poor girl to show the world that they saved "just one" from abuse, making the ruthless raid worth it.

The girl never suffered abuse, and never was in danger of abuse. Let it go CPS; you're just setting yourself up for a lawsuit later on.

Comments continue below

anonymous | 8:39 p.m. Jan. 5, 2009

As long as this mother is arrogantly refusiing to offer protection for her daughter, then the court needs to keep her in foster care.
She refused from the begining to keep her daughter away from those indicted and is still refusing.

Huh | 8:46 p.m. Jan. 5, 2009

Ok, maybe I am missing something, but that photo looks seriously doctored. And no, I'm not talking about the blurred face. Since when does a flash camera leave a shadow like that? Sharp shadow to the right even though the camera looks like it's right in front of them. The light source is all wrong. The shadow's width & focus don't work, they look like their faces are right up against the wall. The shadow of her dress is the same width as the guy's suit, even though it's closer in the foreground.

Also, is she sitting on a stool or what? There is no weight to her. He's holding her but he's not really holding her. Her arms are bent--his show absolutely no strain. She is floating.

For the record, I am LDS not FLDS and I have no idea whether there's abuse here or not. But I work with Photoshop and to me, this photo looks fishy. Maybe someone who knows about the photo can explain the shadow and the weightless girl.

@huh | 9:34 p.m. Jan. 5, 2009

some bad flash snapshots leave shadows like that.

but the weightless girl is very interesting. maybe she is sitting on his knee

anonymous | 9:45 p.m. Jan. 5, 2009

HAHAAH, nice try!!! Hes 50, shes 12yrs old. She probably doesnt weigh 90 pds. Of course the picture isnt doctored. The pictures came from evidence taken from the ranch.

The CPS sect | 6:30 a.m. Jan. 6, 2009

Having lost the battle hundreds of times over, they continue to fight tooth and nail over this one girl without regard for what's best for her, simply because she's all they have left. An abusive sect HAS been found in Texas, and it's called CPS.

freethinker | 7:45 a.m. Jan. 6, 2009

The texas cps is clinging to this girl as a mother would. Where is the public outrage? Get cps back where they belong, under the porch.

JJ | 7:54 a.m. Jan. 6, 2009

Doctor/Patient confidentiality seems to be a concept that escapes the State of Texas and CPS when it suits their needs. How sad that they feel the need to destroy the privacy and the life of a 14 year old young woman as they scramble to save face. Since when is it the policy of CPS and the State to release the contents of therapy sessions to the press?

I would also like to see proof of the alleged letters from the unnamed blog suggesting kidnaping. Having followed this mess from the beginning, I am pretty sure which blog it is that they refer to and have yet to see any letters anything other than legal remedy to the issue and the only references to kidnaping being that of the actions of CPS and the State of Texas.

JJ | 7:55 a.m. Jan. 6, 2009

There is much going on here that I am convinced suggests that the behavior of the State of Texas and CPS will prove to be more despicable than any actions of the FLDS. Given that statistics prove that any child taken into the CPS system is four times more likely to come to abuse or physical harm than if they were to stay in what may even be an abusive home and that CPS has been proven to lie and cheat to prove their case and act with no regard to the laws and constitution of the US, how can we trust any "evidence" they choose to present in such a well publicized case? Their track record speaks for itself and I for one, wouldn't give them the responsibility to care for a gerbil, let alone something as precious as a child.

IntriguedbyFLDS | 8:05 a.m. Jan. 6, 2009

Is this the same Merril and Barbara from Carolyn's book "Escape"? If so, I'm not at all surprised by Barbara's behavior. She doesn't care about her children.

Think!!!!!!! | 8:16 a.m. Jan. 6, 2009

CPS is trying with all their might to justify their insidious misconduct and use of taxpayers money! They have thought for years that they could take healthy children and adopt them out for a mere $6000 to cushiion their establishment. They never cared what happened more with the child or the family. Now, the people of this grand country have got to stop this UNCONSTITUTIONAL outrage! Just how the picture looks, the wording CPS is using, all shows that they KNOW they are lying and not showing/telling the American People the truth.

They have got away with it in smaller cases and now they think they can again. All AMERICANS write to your congressmen about this atrocity before this happens to you or someone you love!

Barbara Jessop is just one little mother against a monster establishment. That is why CPS thinks it can throw out the lies to the public. How many people are going to swallow their crap? Are you??

Besides, Fredrick Meade Jessop is one of the men that turned himself in on a grand jury indictment. Obviously CPS is lying one more time.

Think!!!!!!! | 8:22 a.m. Jan. 6, 2009

JJ | 7:55 a.m. Jan. 6, 2009
There is much going on here that I am convinced suggests that the behavior of the State of Texas and CPS will prove to be more despicable than any actions of the FLDS. Given that statistics prove that any child taken into the CPS system is four times more likely to come to abuse or physical harm than if they were to stay in what may even be an abusive home and that CPS has been proven to lie and cheat to prove their case and act with no regard to the laws and constitution of the US, how can we trust any "evidence" they choose to present in such a well publicized case? Their track record speaks for itself and I for one, wouldn't give them the responsibility to care for a gerbil, let alone something as precious as a child.
---------------------------------------------------

YES! YES! YES! YES!!! Thank-you for a common sense post!

Wow | 8:25 a.m. Jan. 6, 2009

The number of people who will leap to the defense of child molesters, twisting facts every which way and searching desperately for conspiracy theories ("the photo was doctored") is truly astounding.

"Attempts to find relatives to care for her have not worked out, CPS said, noting one did not believe the girl had been abused and "agrees with underage marriage and supports plural marriages."

This quote says a lot about the culture of underage marriages among the FLDS. GOOD FOR CPS FOR INVESTIGATING THIS HEINOUS PRACTICE!!!

The "hate" religion | 8:54 a.m. Jan. 6, 2009

This is purely a religious conflict. CPS is trying to convert the FLDS to their religion of hate and destruction of family, life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. So far there isn't even one convert. Everyone in the FLDS religion I've seen seems to be happy, including the children. Only those who hate or are jealous could see abuse in those faces, before they were taken from the ranch. If CPS is allowed to succeed against the FLDS, which religion is next? until we are all converted to the religion of hate, enforced by weapons of mass destruction if we don't succumb.

Naomie | 8:58 a.m. Jan. 6, 2009

The girl doesn't weigh anymore than 50 pounds in the picture. Warren Jeffs looks like he's holding a feathered pillow and no straining holding her. Not a grown woman by any means.

K | 8:58 a.m. Jan. 6, 2009

JJ

Doctor's are required to report a crime against a child to the authorities. It doesn't sound like you are concerned with the child's privacy, just the privacy of the adult perpetrator.

Joey | 11:00 a.m. Jan. 6, 2009

It's a doctored photo. Look at the girl's huge hand, which is as big as his. The kissing photo also looks as if the faces are superimposed.

I'm not saying there wasn't some kind of betrothal -- just as many cultures arrange their daughters marriages long before their actually consummated -- but the kissing shots seem a bit far-fetched, even for this religion.

At any rate, CPS needs to make clear whether they believe actual sexual assault occurred, or was it just a superficial/cultural sealing ceremony, not to be consummated until she became of legal age.

Mouse | 11:18 a.m. Jan. 6, 2009

I'm glad to see that almost all the FLDS mothers have succeeded in getting their children back. Unlike Barbara Jessop, maybe they've realized that their first responsibility is their chilren's welfare, not blind obedience to some pedophile 'prophet.' If only Barbara Jessop would take similar steps to ensure the future safety of the children in her care.

K | 11:24 a.m. Jan. 6, 2009

"At any rate, CPS needs to make clear whether they believe actual sexual assault occurred, or was it just a superficial/cultural sealing ceremony, not to be consummated until she became of legal age."

Well Jeffs is in jail and he's been indicted already for similar stuff. Duh!

If it's so superficial, why do it with a minor... why not wait until legal adulthood?

In American culture a person becomes an adult and then get's married to a person of their own choosing. In American culture an underage person may not be in an inappropriate relationship with an adult. Adult goes to jail and the child is made safe from parents who allow another adult or fascilitate the crime.

CPS the "hate" religion | 11:32 a.m. Jan. 6, 2009

Accusing people of abuse 1000 times still doesn't prove they are abusers. Even if the picture is true, it still doesn't prove abuse. In fact the girl looks truly happy in that picture. There is no evidence that ANY sexual contact took place, so how can it be sexual abuse? These people haven't even had a trial in a court of law to prove there was indeed abuse, and as far as I can tell, even the girl herself doesn't say she was abused? Where are the witnesses. So far the only thing we know about abuse is what CPS and the state is accusing them of. Even two courts of law already ruled that the children WERE NOT abused.

RE: Joey | 11:34 a.m. Jan. 6, 2009

It is not a doctored photo. Get real. If it was really doctored don't you think that information would have been made public by now by some FLDS Photoshopper? I mean, they're using this photo as one of the major pieces of evidence in this case. Believe me, if it were doctored everyone would have already heard about it.

flimsy excuse | 11:41 a.m. Jan. 6, 2009

Texas is using this photo for their ONLY evidence, which they claim to have obtained after an illegal search warrant to do with a "Sarah Jessop Barlow". Where are the witnesses in this case? Is that really the only evidence Texas has? Believe me, if they had more, everone would already heard about it.

Texas is on shakey ground.

American culture | 11:50 a.m. Jan. 6, 2009

K,

By the way, just what is the "American culture"? I thought the American culture was freedom of religion, not that everybody had to conform to the "mainstream" American religion, I mean culture.

JJ | 12:02 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

K, are you being purposely obtuse to cloud the subject?
"Doctor's are required to report a crime against a child to the authorities. It doesn't sound like you are concerned with the child's privacy, just the privacy of the adult perpetrator."
This isn't a doctor reporting suspected abuse to the authorities. This is Texas and CPS using the confidential files of a minor to further their agenda. Was it necessary to provide this information to the press to further their case in court? I think not. Does the publication of the confidential therapy sessions engender trust between the young woman and her therapist? Most certainly not. So then why release the information to the press when the accused adult perpetrator is already behind bars? It seems nothing more than another ploy to influence public opinion and influence a possible jury. If they have such a solid case, why bother? Why create more distrust between the young woman and her therapist by releasing such information to the media? It certainly isn't in the young woman's best interest, now is it?

re: CPS the "hate" religion | 12:30 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

In your books, a 50+ man french-kissing a 12-year-old girl is NOT abuse? Gosh, I hope you don't have any daughters! Or, if you do, I hope they don't have any lecherous old teachers at THEIR schools.

Of course the girl looks happy! Everyone she knows, including her own parents, have told her that she's doing the work of the Lord by keeping sweet and obedient and marrying God's prophet, and that it's all totally normal and appropriate. She was probably assured that she's now bound for the highest happy hunting ground. On top of that, FLDS girls are sheltered to the point of NO sex education whatsoever. Do you think any of these factors make it appropriate for a 12-year-old girl to be married to a 50+ man?

medical proof | 12:32 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

supposedly, the girl went on her own and had a medical exam to attest to her virginity because CPS of Texas kept "defiling her character" by accusing her of having been molested.
If that is fact then the state of Texas is going to have a hard time in a court of law in front of non CPS or CPS dependent people (cps dependent ie-the therapists, CASA employees, psychologist etc that depend on CPS for their income). This will be before a jury, not cps flunkies.

Making allegations is one thing, showing that they have any basis in reality is another.

Re:medical proof | 12:49 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

I don't think a 12 year old can go "on her own" anywhere. Any doctor that would do that type of medical exam on a 12 year old girl without a parent present is asking for trouble. I seriously doubt that such a medical exam is anything but a false rumor. Either way, forcing a 12 year old into a marriage with an old man is abuse in itself, regardless of whether there was intercourse or not.

anonymous | 1:15 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

The doctor from the ranch has already been indicted, he admitted he had deleivered babies to underage girls on the ranch.
In Texas a doctor has to report such to authorities.
JJ , trust me, the public hasn't seen all the evidence LE have on this case.

Silent Majority | 1:24 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

The anti CPS comments are a repeating record from the same people each and every time. Some change their name but the wording is similar to comments made in previous stories. Dont think that everyone feels this way there is a silent majority that thinks that CPS did the right thing.

Anonymous | 1:43 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

You are calling a religious ceremony abuse. NONSENSE. It's no more abuse than a baptism at 8 years old. You have only confirmed your CPS attitude that "we don't like your religion, so we're going to force you to give it up at the point of a gun, and tear you from your family if you don't agree".

Out of here with your nonsense, this is AMERICA! Or at least it was last I checked.

blah blah blah | 1:49 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

How I wish this mess would go away. EVERYONE in this situation has handled it with major stupidity. And the biggest losers in the whole deal, is those poor children. If CPS hadn't muttled it up, those children would be in a much better position, and all the blame would be left for Jeffs and his followers. But that's not what happened. So instead of helping these children, they are making their lives even more difficult. Meanwhile, people get to dwell on it, and spew hatred and bigotry and be morons themselves. So in the end, no one wins, everyones loses, but most of all, the kids. Wonderful job TX.

tom | 2:02 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

FLDS are the religion of the devil. No 2 ways about it.

Sakeneko | 2:05 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

Silent majority? I'd say it's rather loud myself.

When all is said and done, I personally suspect that:

1) The CPS jumped the gun with this whole case.

2) There *was* a case. Insanely underage girls were being pushed into marriages with men that they did not choose, and their parents were complicit rather than trying to protect the children.

The right solution will involve both the CPS and the parents getting their acts together. Anything less won't protect these or other children. I just wish I thought it was going to happen. :/

Anonymous | 2:06 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

Very superstitious people indeed to believe someone can be forced into marriage. The very term defies logic. How can you be forced into marriage? It is either "I do" or "I don't". Can someone logically explain the term "force" used by CPS and the FLDS haters? Where is their evidence of force of ANY marriage, which to the FLDS is a religious ceremony, not meant to be acknowledged by the law of the land?

It seems the only ones who could force a marriage would be a judge (one authorized by the state to perform a civil marriage) that put a gun to your head and said "sign this document or else!" Then you could go the next day to another judge and get divorced.

Joey | 2:30 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

"Any doctor that would do that type of medical exam on a 12 year old girl without a parent present is asking for trouble."

Remember what Crimmins said when all 460 FLDS kids were in custody: "We are the parents"
They had gyno equipment set up at the colliseum. The 43 FLDS girls, including this poor girl, from the YFZ ranch were most likely all subjected to SANE exams by CPS doctors. Several of them have stated they were tested multiple times to prove their innocence. Any other religious group would be up in arms by now and suing for civil rights abuses.

realitycheck | 2:32 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

a mother let her TWELVE YEAR OLD daughter marry a 50 yr old man - and the father actually performed the ceremony - and you people think that's ok?

That's about the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Of course they can't let the girl go back to her mother. Her mother has NO CLUE how to raise children. Sure, she might have them pray a lot, and might teach them manners, but they certainly have no clue about morals.

And now you grasp at straws and say the picture is doctored? Even the family admits the picture is real, and tha the ceremony occured. What exactly do you not understand about that?

These people TRAIN their daughters to marry young and pump out children as quickly as possible. Then the children are used to control the daughter as she gets older. And simply SPITE makes the daughter do the same to her own daughters as they grow up. It's a vicious cycle, and a very poor environment for children.

I don't care if their children are raised to be polite - they need to understand free will. Otherwise it's just a prison.

Sad that you all think that's ok.

ogdenwoman | 2:51 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

If you are in your teens, or in this case only 12, yes, you can be forced to get married to an older man in that culture. You are totally dependent upon the adults for your food and shelter, you have been taught that it is okay for an older man to marry you and you are told to 'keep sweet' and obey period. How can anyone condone a 12 year old or any teenager be married to an adult? It is mental and physical abuse to be forced into that when you aren't mature enough for this kind of situation. If you choose to live in the USA then abide by the laws meant to protect young people.

realitycheck | 3:00 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

re Anonymous 2:06pm

how do you "force someone into a marriage"? are you serious? well, lets see.

you give me a child from the day they were born, put them in isolation with just me and a bunch of people that believe the same things I believe, and I can create any type of person you want.

want a teenager that doesn't understand that murder is wrong? done. want a teenager that thinks sex with animals is normal? done.

getting a 12 yr old girl to marry a "prophet" is a walk in the park given their environment.

what exactly do you not understand about the effects of training and environment?

Now, I'm sure you believe that Warren Jeffs is indeed a prophet. And you believe marrying Jeffs will get this girl into the highest levels of heaven. So you look at it as something GOOD.

But - if you DIDN'T believe those things, and you looked at it as an outsider, then you would have a totally different opinion. And you would be disgusted.

The fact is, most people are disgusted. But you think it's good because of how you were raised. Which simply confirms my initial point...

realitycheck | 3:11 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

re CPS the Hate Religion 11:32am

"Even two courts of law already ruled that the children WERE NOT abused."

if you're going to say things, try to make it correct.

first, CPS took most of the children because they were AT RISK OF ABUSE, not because they were abused. The children the CPS took because of abuse was a small number. And they are all still under state supervision.

The courts found THE RISK OF ABUSE insufficient to take the children. Except for the same small number of children.

There's a big difference between risk of abuse and actual abuse. (Of course, the fact is that all the children were at risk, will continue to be abused, and will continue to abuse their children later, but thats just a sad fact. Can't be helped.)

@ 2:06 | 3:13 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

Now that was a very idiotic thing to say. Geez, what brainless people.

medical proof | 3:35 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

I meant on her own as in not CPS ordered. Her mother of course took her to the ob/gyn medical appointment to get the proof to clear her name. The appointment was after CPS returned her to mothers custody so the girl would not have been 12 but 14-16, I would have to look back through the records to find her exact age back in July.

Common sense | 3:39 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

The law of God is our only protection. The law of the land should be appendage to that. When the law of the land conflicts with the law of God, that automatically creates law breakers, which must either defy the law of God or the law of the land. I choose the law of God, how about you?

KC | 3:54 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

Regardless of EVERYTHING else. Statutory rape, child abuse in any form, or failure to report abuse is AGAINST the law. You can live your "faux" polygamy religion if you OBEY THE LAW!

Anonymous | 3:58 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

FLDS have formed their own little nazi camp.

Wyoming woman | 4:04 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

My heart goes out to all of the women and children exposed and raised in this mess! If you have not read "Escape" or "Stolen Innocence" you should. These people have gone through torture.

re: Common sense | | 4:21 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

How does this 'law of God' vs. 'law of the land' argument have anything at all to do with this situation? Did God ever say 'thou shalt molest the young and shanghai them into marriage'??

realitycheck | 4:30 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

re Common Sense 3:39pm

what? there are some pretty sick religions out there - are you saying the laws should be changed to coincide with those rules?

and God thinks marrying 12 yr olds to an old man is a sin. So the laws already match God's law on that.

Just because you belong to a religion that has some bizarre beliefs doesn't make it God's law. It just means you've been told these things over and over since you were a kid and didn't have the intelligence to question it.

If you would use "common sense", you would realize that there are too many religions with varying beliefs for the laws to possibly be changed to match them.

besides, in Iran's religion a rape victim needs 3 MALE witnesses to press charges - and if she can't do that she is charged with "family disloyalty", put in a pit and stoned to death.

you good with that? LOL - no wonder they call your FLDS religion the American Taliban...

when the real God (not some 1800s con man with pretend "seer stones") actually comes down and makes a law, rest assured the laws of the land will change.

KC | 4:37 p.m. Jan. 6, 2009

I agree Wymoming: I don't think Carloyn Jessop & Elissa Wall are lying. I don't think the boys that have been kicked out are lying. I don't even think Flora Jessop is a liar. I feel bad for the girl AND her mother b/c her mother was probably raised & COACHED the same way & doesn't know what she is doing is negligent.

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2 photos

Photo entered into court evidence shows FLDS leader Warren Jeffs and a girl whom authorities claim was 12 at the time they were married. The girl's face in the photo is blurred intentionally to protect her identity.

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