Deseret News | Reader comments: Students' lack of knowledge is disturbing

Reader comments
Walter Williams: Students' lack of knowledge is disturbing

Todd | 3:03 a.m. Dec. 3, 2008

One of the reasons for the high rate of incorrect answers to the ISI test is its overwhelming conservative bias.

That said, I note the author did not offer his score. Mine 93% correct.

Timj | 4:10 a.m. Dec. 3, 2008

"If we don't know the constitutional limits placed on Congress and the White House, politicians can do just about anything they wish to control our lives, from deciding what kind of light bulbs we can use to whether the government can take over our health-care system or bail out failing businesses."
I have a distinct feeling that most of those who score well on tests like these, and who do understand the Constitution, also support wise environmental choices and a fundamental change in our health-care system.
The Constitution is not meant to be the only law in the land. It's meant as a backbone. It's a blueprint. It's flexible--it needs to be flexible, since times change. The world's not like it was 220 years ago, when the Constitution was written, but the writers of the Constitution understood that things would change, and so they wrote flexibility into the Constitution.
The Constitution authorizes navies and armies. It doesn't authorize an air force. That doesn't mean that we can't have an air force--it just means that we interpret the constitution a little bit differently than our grandfathers did.

Master Sarge Tomas | 8:15 a.m. Dec. 3, 2008

GW Bush has proven you can be a total moron and be a puppet President for the last 8 years!!

So tell me why should kids study any Moron can be president!!
The rest of the world has seen what a standard we have set!!
Thank God the People have voted in a Well - Educated President this time around!

Comments continue below

Bill | 8:37 a.m. Dec. 3, 2008

Timj you scare me! Using your logic there are no limits or standards. Why not just let the judges rule us? Or perhaps a benevolent dictator?

Roland Kayser | 9:15 a.m. Dec. 3, 2008

I was at a party recently and met someone who thought I was incredibly ill informed because I didn't know who the winner of American Idol was. So I asked him who is the Chief Justice of the United States?, he didn't know. I asked him who is the Chairman of the Federal Reserve? again, he didn't know. I explained to him that the winner of American Idol would never, in any way, have any effect on his life, whereas the Chief Justice and the Fed Chairman make decisions on a constant basis that can change his life. I don't think he beleived me.

MrH | 9:29 a.m. Dec. 3, 2008

Americans want to be entertained, not educated. Being intelligent is not valued. This is why our schools struggle... America's students are simply responding to the culture at large.

JMT | 9:31 a.m. Dec. 3, 2008

You can google this and find the test, which I did.

Interesting that you see a conservative bias. I found the questions to be very accurate with only one bias towards Keynesian economics, which means that what I consider the correct answer was scored as the wrong answer.

The question was about spurring the economy. Their correct answer was by cutting taxes and increasing spending. The increased spending is clearly Keynesian economics, and the current way of thinking out of DC, we can all see how well it is doing.

The "correct" answer is to cut taxes and match with spending cuts so you have a balanced budget. Sadly, balancing a budget is not something Washington DC has ever considered. It's as though they don't know how to spell it.

All readers should find this test and take it.

Roland Kayser | 9:37 a.m. Dec. 3, 2008

After reading this article I logged on to ISI's website and found an even more disturbing fact. People who have held elected office score lower than the population at large.

Geeze | 9:41 a.m. Dec. 3, 2008

You either get a correct or an incorrect answer regardless of philosophical bias.

To master Sarge Tomas, to say the GW is a moron shows that you are ever lower than that. I agree that he has made some very bad errors, but Slick Willey made some rather poor deicions, too, and I don't hear you calling him a moron. During the campaigns Mr. Obama made terrible gaffes and you haven't called him a moron, so I have to assume that you are biased in your opinions and there fore you get the answers wrong and you, too, are lower than moron beyond all belief.

Oh Please | 9:42 a.m. Dec. 3, 2008

Everybody's always pointing with alarm at the fact that the typical American is not an expert geographer or political scientist. So what? I happen to be an editor and am constantly appalled at the grammar and spelling of the people around me, but that doesn't mean I consider them stupid or ignorant.

Re "Todd | 3:03 a.m" | 9:43 a.m. Dec. 3, 2008

Is [Todd | 3:03 a.m] saying kids should only be expected to know their liberal biased factoids? That kids would have done better on this test if it focused on liberal topics instead? Is that because that's all their being taught in our Union dominated, government funded schools?

If you ask questions about the Constitution, will some people automatically assume the test has a "Conservative bias" (like Todd)?

Obviously Timj thinks the Constitution is just a collection of "guidelines" not documented core principles to limit and control our government. He thinks our kids shouldn't even be expected to answer black and white questions about the constitution and our government... it's all just gray to him anyway. He's probably your kid's school teacher.

Toby: | 10:13 a.m. Dec. 3, 2008

To those who believe the Consititution to be flexible. Not only are you ill-informed, I believe you are dangerous. One of the primary functions of the Constitution was to limit the power of government. If the power of government is to be expanded the Constitution contains a means to be that flexible - its called an amendment. It's just that it is easier to ignore the Consititution until a precedent is set and nobody realizes the Constitution has been overriden. Or simply get the courts to change it. In either event you can skip the messy democratic part. You know the part where citizens get to actually vote on the change. After all, why do that. They don't know enough to make a change to the Constituion.

Roland: | 10:40 a.m. Dec. 3, 2008

Where have you been, you could not answer the American Idol question? Thinking about the constitution has diluted your knowledge of the American way.

Toby, I agree with the constitution being a way to limit the power of government, but unfortunately a large number of people haven't realized it. Everyone wants someone to step in a solve all their problems with more laws and programs.

To "Oh Please" | 10:44 a.m. Dec. 3, 2008

1. No one said those who couldn't pass the test are stupid. They are dangerously lazy.
2. You are an "editor" and are not concerned that an ill-informed public can be manipulated and led into paths they should not follow?" What, pray tell, do you edit?
3. You are "appalled" at the poor grammar and spelling of those around you, but don't consider them ignorant? The definition of "ignorance" is lack of knowledge or information. Duh! Again, of what are you the editor?

Mike K. | 11:20 a.m. Dec. 3, 2008

I am pretty sure our legislature would fail this test as well. OK, I am 100% sure they would fail it. So, that said, having half of the students in america overqualified to be elected to represent us in the legislature and the other half qualified isn't too bad.

Surprised? | 12:33 p.m. Dec. 3, 2008

And people are surprised by this?

Social Studies programs are disappearing from our schools. Across the nation, only 91% of High Schools still have a Social Studies Department. In other secondary schools, Geography and Civics classes have been cut from full year programs to half year. High stakes testing (NCLB) has shifted the emphasis to Language Arts and Math (and Science to a lesser degree) at the expense of other programs.

Re "Toby: | 10:13 a.m." | 12:41 p.m. Dec. 3, 2008

Why bother with the slow process required to get consensus to pass a Constitutional Ammendment when some people have discovered how quickly and easily the Constitution can be changed if all you need to do is to change the mind of one or two influential judges you can get to re-inturpret the meaning of the Constitution to agree with whatever you want?

It's all just gray stuff anyway, right?

To some people the Constitution is just an out-dated guideline document that is wide open to personal inturpretation because it only made sense in days gone by. To others the concepts in the document are simple and basic and shouldn't be tweaked unless the PEOPLE approve (not judges who aren't elected by the people).

It's just a difference of philosophy (but an important one if the Constitution is to mean anything to future generations of Americans).

About the "Conservative Bias" | 12:49 p.m. Dec. 3, 2008

I havent found time to take the ISI test yet, but if I pass... Does that mean I'm a conservative? (Since some think it has too many black & white questions about the Constitution to be fair to Liberals).

Constitution | 1:11 p.m. Dec. 3, 2008

Those who believe the Constitution is an "out-dated guideline document that is wide open to personal interpretation because it only made sense in days gone by" are those who do not understand it nor its place in a federal republic. The Constitution is not a guideline nor a backbone. It is the Supreme Law of the Land (see Article VI, Clause 2). It is only as flexible as it amendments (Amendment 10).

Contemporary belief is that the Constitution is there to give us our rights. But in fact, the Constitution establishes a framework for government and give the government its power, and only powers specifically enumerated in the Constitution can it perform. Just as the framework to a building must be rigid and strong, so must the framework of our country. To claim the Constitution is flexible is like building on sand. When the storms come, the house cannot stand. If we allow this flexible view of the Constitution to continue, our country will suffer the same fate as the man who built his house upon the sand.

Anonymous | 1:43 p.m. Dec. 3, 2008

Always look at the bright side of life. Walther these poorly educated will be wowed by Palin in 2012. It's your next generation of dittoheads.

the truth | 4:12 p.m. Dec. 3, 2008

And these are people the liberals want voting for our leaders.

It's no wonder the congress the Pres. and all have such low ratings.

Anonymous | 4:24 p.m. Dec. 3, 2008

The test had a noticeable conservative bias. That like Kentucky windage at shooting. You just correct for the bias. Conservative thought is cut and dry there's no abstract things involves. Parrot the talking points. I only got 85%.

dsg | 4:47 p.m. Dec. 3, 2008

Dems are gaining control of legislatures all over the country because they have dumbed down those attending government mandated school systems who then vote for them, because of their promise to take care of all their needs. These kids can put a condom on a banana, but they don't know squat about the U.S. Constitution and how or why it came about. The U.S. is destined to become a third rate country if the dems are allowed to continue to push their failed policies on the American people.

RE Anonymous | 4:52 p.m. Dec. 3, 2008

It is a known fact that the uneducated overwhelmingly vote democrat. I would venture to guess that if Sarah Palin had a stroke and lost the use of half her brain she would still be 10 times smarter than you and most libs.

Wrong title | 7:40 p.m. Dec. 3, 2008

The title should have read "Students' lack of knowledge in CIVICS is disturbing". There are a lot of different levels of intelligence...A lot of people have social smarts. They can make friends with anyone and smell nice. And then there are people who know history like a maniac but don't have the sense to use deodorant. A person can get a 35 on the ACT but walk in front of speeding cars in the middle of the road (an epidemic at BYU, trust me I know, I went there). There are some people who have never read Shakespeare, but work in soup kitchens and will give you the coat off their back.

I don't know if the DN named this article or what, but the title is misleading. Human nature is too complex to pigeonhole people's intelligence like that. I couldn't do Walter William's job, and I'm pretty sure he couldn't do mine (professional artist.) I am with "Oh Please" on this one.

C'Mon | 9:25 p.m. Dec. 3, 2008

An idiot will not vote for Palin because they could never understand the depth of her remarks and platform. To all you who feel that questions on civics are slanted towards Conservatism really must love "Social Justice" which is the most dangerous of all thoughts to face our children at this time. Lord help us all!

Anonymous | 12:14 a.m. Dec. 4, 2008

I, too, scored 93.94 percent.

I guess on the grading curve that puts me to the right of Ghengis Khan.

l | 12:46 a.m. Dec. 4, 2008

re oh please, "I happen to be an editor and am constantly appalled at the grammar and spelling of the people around me, but that doesn't mean I consider them stupid or ignorant."

I'm not an editor, but I believe people with poor grammar and spelling are stupid and ignorant (the real definition of the word ignorant, not the mangled Utah definition).

Time for a review | 7:24 a.m. Dec. 6, 2008

I knew all of this many years ago but have forgotten much.

It is time for me to review!

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