Reader comments
Aspects of immigration law under fire

Over-exaggeration | 12:47 a.m. Nov. 28, 2008

I think the local ACLU rep is blowing this out of proportion. Lately they've seemed very anxious to extend their social activism to include illegal aliens, who have no right to be or work here.

My family has dealt with SSA discrepancies once after we adopted a child. This was caught when we filed our taxes and they pointed out that the name we submitted didn't match the name they had on file for the social security number. It was a relatively quick process to visit the local SSA office with the legal documents and get the problem fixed. I think we were there for less than 30 minutes, including the time it took to wait for our number to be called.

I would think that most of the failures from this system really would be related to an unauthorized person attempting to get a job they have no right to. A citizen could easily fix a digit transposition or even a name challenge, without losing a job. I would much rather have a system with a < 1% failure rate than no system at all with a 100% failure rate.

ARC | 1:40 a.m. Nov. 28, 2008

DOES ANYONE KNOW IF ORRIN HATCH SUPPORTS THIS BILL

Election law??? | 2:23 a.m. Nov. 28, 2008

This bill passed BEFORE the election, but not starting for 18 months after the legislative session ended was clearly only an election ploy because it was clear voters want immigration reform!

Comments continue below

2009 not election year | 2:25 a.m. Nov. 28, 2008

The legislature will reverse this immigration reform bill and STUDY immigration reform for the next legislative election year 2010.

John | 3:48 a.m. Nov. 28, 2008

I think that the ACLU is using fear mongering by saying that American citizens are going to have a hard time getting verified for a job by this system. No bonafide American citizen will need to worry about this system. The illegal population will and should have a harder time getting jobs because of this system.

An easier way to solve the problem of illegals getting jobs would be to criminalize the hiring of illegals. Employers who knowingly hire illegals should be held criminally responsible. Those who flout the law and hire illegals would be punished. Soon the market for illegal immigrants would be gone, and illegals would have no reason to come to the US illegally.

That is why we need it. | 4:19 a.m. Nov. 28, 2008

As for the ACLU they are an illegals best friend and an enemy to the american workers. These E-verify and systems like it are supposed to catch mis-matching information. And if it is an american citizens that gets caught with a problem then it means someone else is causing the problem, not the SSA or government data. The only way an illegal alien can get a job is to steal someone else's identity and this is what is causing the problem, not the data. The ACLU is out of line and a persons identity is being abused and this is one means of finding out it has been stolen. When an identity has been stolen it can take years for citizens to get it straightend out and the amount of time a verify systems takes is minimal compared to the damage done by illegals to american citizens. It is illegal to employ an illegal alien and there must be means of identifing stolen information. Personally I think we need stricter laws and more penalties for employers who knowingly falsify and aid illegals to steal identies. Why doens't the ACLU act as an agent to help people of ID theft?

Alex | 4:32 a.m. Nov. 28, 2008

Shame on Utah for engaging itsself in such policies. Just leave the poor people alone. All they want to do is to work and make a living. Y'all have forgotten that at one point your own ancestors were illegal in this country. They migrated with a burning desire to enjoy freedom and to make a better life. So leave these illegal immigrants alone. They're not stealing your children and they're not knocking on your doors to beg for food. In fact they play a major role in making your products and services more accesible and affordable. So leave them alone.

No surprise | 4:35 a.m. Nov. 28, 2008

If the legislators had the intestinal fortitude to pass this bill with an effective date of last July 1, BEFORE THE ELECTION, we wouldn't have to be discussing it now. Now they can postpone it during the upcoming session for "further study" or amend it into ineffectivness, and once again will have actually done nothing at all. Cowards.

tenx | 7:17 a.m. Nov. 28, 2008

Shame on the US government for not enforcing our immigration laws. So if it is up to the individual states to do it, then they will do it. For every delay in enforcement the number of Illegals increase as the past 7 amnesties have shown. Some studies indicate as many as 30 million here now.

weezie | 7:35 a.m. Nov. 28, 2008

All Utahns should watch this bill closely and remember those who vote against the enforcement of this bill. We are supposed to be a nation of laws. Illegal aliens are illegal aliens. They broke our laws over and over and brought us their crime.

Paul | 7:54 a.m. Nov. 28, 2008

I don't see the need to train each and every officer in the field on immigration policy. Just train the people in the jail. If someone gets arrested and brought into jail, then performing an immigration check on them seems like a reasonable thing to do. If you keep your nose clean and avoid jail, you can avoid the check. Pretty simple. Don't do the crime if you don't want to be shipped home.

And if any officials decide to postpone SB81, then we need to let those people know they won't be in their position for long. I, for one, checked to see who voted for SB81.

Jeanne | 8:46 a.m. Nov. 28, 2008

Waah! Waah! Waah! Cry me a river....
How about the "poor" illegal immigrants do it the way I did it to become an American citizen, the LEGAL way? Why should a certain group of people have special privileges when all the others have to play the official game.
Do we really want Utah to become like California, bankrupt because it has embraced all illegals, coddled them and extended to them all kinds of special services and freebees?
Will rational and brave voices raise against all the lunacy? Utah legislators, do you know why Cannon is not in congress any more and Jason Chaffetz is? Don't be cowards, ignore the nuts at the ACLU and do what is right, enforce the laws. Our country will be better off for it. Time to restore law and order and not give in to special interests. That is why we elected you, you are on OUR errand!

Enforce the Law! | 8:49 a.m. Nov. 28, 2008

Get these people out of here! They contribute nothing and take everything!!

itsjustme | 9:03 a.m. Nov. 28, 2008

If the State were able to rid the population of all the illegal persons that are currently residing here, you would see a dramatic drop in the crime rate.

These people bring with them their culture of gang membership and criminal behavior. If you eliminate the ability for them to earn money, they will move out of the state, and take their crime with them.

The times... | 9:03 a.m. Nov. 28, 2008

...they are a'changin'.
With unemployment, foreclosures, ID theft, and uninsured on the rise NOW is the time to enact this legislation.
Our priorities must shift to our own with the increasingly tight social service budgets.
Every illegal alien who is working is taking an employment opportunity away from our most vulnerable people, youth...minorities...poor...less-educated.
These labor-intensive, entry level jobs are the very ones we need right now. Don't you get it, people? Bush has sold us a bill of goods with this "Jobs Americans won't do" nonsense.
And the politicians who isolate the problem with just the criminals among them are selling their souls and our economy in exchange for biz and special interest groups.

evensteven | 9:33 a.m. Nov. 28, 2008

I really don't see the issue. Employers are currently required to use the I9 Form to verify identity when hiring. Two forms of ID are required to complete the form, all of which are government issued and required to be originals. If the applicant does not have a passport, an original birth certificate, SSA card or DHS card are required.

Currently, the form is not filed but kept for inspection (such as an ICE raid). EVerify simply provides an avenue for the employer to immediately confirm the identity and work eligibility status. In today's technology, this is an appropriate step and is really no different that running a credit check.

I applaud our legislature for dealing with this problem. The ACLU's chicken little attitude is misguided. Those in our country illegally do not have 'civil rights' protected by law. As noted above, fixing the discepancies with SSA is fairly easy.

With the prliferation of high quality forgeries, such a verification is necessary to protect employers and the public. I would encourage other jurisdictions to follow the example of Weber and Washington and get their people trained. Turning a blind eye is unacceptable.

Voter | 9:35 a.m. Nov. 28, 2008

Keep on using E-Verify as long as possible. It may not be perfect, but it is close enough and has provisions to fix errors.

How come only TWO counties are signed up for their cops to enforce immigration laws?

We welcome LEGAL immigrants, but ever since SLC Police Chief Ruben Ortega's days, it has been pointed out that about half of our crime is connected to ILLEGAL aliens. If you get rid of the criminals, you don't have them commiting crimes.

This is a good law, now USE IT!

Anonymous | 9:59 a.m. Nov. 28, 2008

The E-Verify provision sounds like a great measure. Perhaps it will help clamp down on identity theft and those who have no legal right to be in our country.

To the ACLU, I say, "It's about enforcing existing laws." Certainly, the ACLU would have no problem with upholding our country's laws. Would they?

To Voter | 10:01 a.m. Nov. 28, 2008

Perhaps only two counties are signed up for their copes to enforce immigration laws because their cops would rather enforce laws like rape, child abuse, homicide, robbery, etc. It is essential to encourage people to report these crimes and help with identifying suspects, but that will not happen if witnesses are afraid that cops are going to have them deported if they come forward.

dave4197 | 10:57 a.m. Nov. 28, 2008

sb81 is a bad bill. Brad Dee is quoted in the article saying we're not out to get the immigrants, just the criminal element within. What a joke of a cop out! This bill is clearly an attempt to pester the immigrant population in general, i.e. racist, and when guys like Brad Dee, an elected official, try to escape that way, I'm ashamed of my fellow Utahns in his district.

sb81 is a bad bill. We need to help our poor neighbors from south of the border, and we can. And we'd better help rather than try to further criminalize them (immigration law does not really have any criminal penalty), rather than build useless fences, rather than try to isolate our pure white selves from them. The Utah legislature, and voters, would do much better to pass bills encouraging education, job training, and assimilation, not excusion.

Anonymous | 11:39 a.m. Nov. 28, 2008

Another republican law that big on ideology and lacking in common sense practicality.

Rule number one: garbage in, garbage out. No data base is without errors. A street Key West Drive could be entered Keywest Drive. The query with reflect an error.

Republicans voted for these voter verification laws. States had to have the courts intercede because the error rates were so high. People enter information that was hand written increasing the error rate.

Like we come to expect from a thinking that is absent of understanding cause and effect, there was no money to test and correct errors before the systems came on line.

re: dave4197 | 11:54 a.m. Nov. 28, 2008

You are very naive. Not all of our "neighbors from south of the border" have honorable intentions. Many are hard-core criminals. Even to non-violent ones are still identity thieves. It's people like you who help to create an environment where they feel they can come in and perpetrate their crimes.

Tina | 12:59 p.m. Nov. 28, 2008

RE 11:54

I SECOND THAT! You are absolutely RIGHT! Law breakers are law breakers, no matter how much they try to double cross you with their phony smiles.

Guess What? | 1:21 p.m. Nov. 28, 2008

Los Angeles Gangs are here in Salt Lake
You are not being told the truth
Editorial on TV told which Gangs are here
Some of you people are sick when you say all Mexicans are Criminals
Not so, That is your excuse to burn your soul out with hate
Mexican people are very nice, Kind and good hearted
Hard working and HONEST people
They do not have a heart of hate like you white jerks
You need to do some soul searching of yourself
We have a Major WHITE PROBLEM in Utah
Most to be liars and cheats
Very disrespectful of others
The young Boys are just plain Ignorat and Lazy
The Children of all ages are misguided

Uneducated is the best example 18 and above
No one taking responcibility
This includes the Cops that think they have to do something.
You are no better than a Gang Member wearing a GUN
Your JOB forces you to do harm to the public.

arc | 1:31 p.m. Nov. 28, 2008

"ARC"
Get over it. My name, leave it alone.

The Utah law is in question. You will find that most people at the national level want something. Even Obama. Much of this should be done at the national level.

Remove Incentives to Enter Illegally and go to the back of the line (behind those that are not in the US) needs to be expanded.

Obama:

Create Secure Borders: Protect the integrity of our borders. Support additional personnel, infrastructure and technology on the border and at our ports of entry.

Improve Our Immigration System: Fix the dysfunctional immigration bureaucracy and increase the number of legal immigrants to keep families together and meet the demand for jobs that employers cannot fill.

Remove Incentives to Enter Illegally: Remove incentives to enter the country illegally by cracking down on employers who hire undocumented immigrants.

Bring People Out of the Shadows: Support a system that allows undocumented immigrants who are in good standing to pay a fine, learn English, and go to the back of the line for the opportunity to become citizens.

Work with Mexico: Promote economic development in Mexico to decrease illegal immigration.

evensteven | 1:36 p.m. Nov. 28, 2008

to anonymous @ 11:39

The data match is only the Name and SSN. The name must match exactly. Most of the current mismatches are related to middle/maiden names or submitting a partial first name, such as Alex instead of Alexander.

The egregious problems are when a completely different name/ssn are reported. Those are clearly, IMHO, instances of identity theft and the attempted use of the information by an illegal.

I get a report of my SS earnings and potential benefits about every year. I suspect many others (who don't move alot) do as well. Thus, the system becomes self-correcting as legal workers review their histories or respond to 'hold' letters to clear things up.

The system may not be perfect, but it is a great step forward. The legislature is wise to implement this since state contracts pay union wages. Wages that are better going to a legal citizen/resident than to (an illegal) one who would take the job instead.

Didn't we see this coming? | 1:43 p.m. Nov. 28, 2008

When SB81 was passed but implementation was put off so it could be further "studied," the handwriting was on the wall. Good grief! How much "study" does this take? I suppose just about as much "study" (also known as dragging of feet) as those who benefit from cheap illegal labor while passing on its social costs to the rest of us want it to take.

A little old-fashioned common sense and simple honesty would go a long way here. I think SB81 is a step in the right direction but does not go far enough. E-Verify, with its low error rate, should not present a problem for honest employers and honest Americans/Utahns. If I were to apply for a job and there was a problem with confirmation of my eligibility to work, as a law-abiding citizen I would welcome the opportunity to correct it, which I could easily do.

So, elected Utah officials and the ACLU, think honesty, integrity, rule of law for the greater good of all, and protecting American/Utah citizens (which is your constitutional and moral obligation) instead of protecting greedy employers and illegal immigrants. What a concept!

Spanish Fork | 2:04 p.m. Nov. 28, 2008

Having attended or listened to all of the audio of the Utah Legislative Illegal Immigration Interim Committee Hearings, be aware that there are some errors in this report. Some of these errors are caused by the staff writer getting information from the ACLU and the SL Chamber of Commerce rather than taking the time to listen to the audio.

The errors are in the areas of:
1. The validity of E-Verify
2. The status of the Oklahoma Bill
3. Stating that the SL Chamber of Commerce is neutral on the E-Verify issue.

For anyone that is interested, the entire audio of all committee hearings so far (5) have the audio available. Go to the Utah Legislature Homepage, Select "Committees", Then Select "Interim", and Finally Select "Immigration Interim Committee"

Also, not mentioned in this article is that the final committee hearing is scheduled for Dec. 3rd at 9:00 AM room 450 at the Capitol. You can be sure that the cheap labor employers' representatives will be there. I hope that those who make comments here will attend as well.

SLMG | 2:13 p.m. Nov. 28, 2008

Social Security cards often have flaws. I am 66 years old the first card that was issued to me at age 12 had the someone elses number on it. It took years to straighten out after repeated letters and visits to SSA office it was finally cleared up when I was 30 years old. I am a U.S. citizen and so is all of my family with ancestors arriveing with William Penn before there was an Dept. of Immigration. Having worked in a personnel office for years I saw many of these flawed SS cards.

To the person that was able to have the SS card for an adopted child cleared up in 30 minutes at a SSA office congratulations but you are an exception.

Immigration laws are best left to the Federal Government, the states are wasting tax payers money, these laws will be found unconstitutional because immigration is the Federal Governments place to legislate and enforce.

Other Worries | 2:25 p.m. Nov. 28, 2008

I have commented here many times regarding my dis- taste for illegals to be here or any where else. One other big problem besides crime is diseases. How many illegals have been vaccinated and come here disease safe? How many get in line and get vaccinated for a number of diseases to protect themselves and others against numerous viruses? That is another big concern I have besides the crime and loss of jobs, and the cost of other free hand outs. Pass and enforce the bills against illegal entry.

you should all go to The Onion | 2:35 p.m. Nov. 28, 2008

There is a beautiful article written about people like most of you here, who pretend to be all morally superior.
It's called "I'm Not One of Those 'Love They Neighbor' Christians."
Go check out the article. Learn something about yourself.

Pancho Pantera | 4:26 p.m. Nov. 28, 2008

I just want to see if the radical thinking succeeds and all the illegal immigrants actually leave the country, hahahaha, the whole USA is going to have no hands to work. The people who call themselves legitimate citizens are not really capable of offering the skills. Otherwise, why would someone hire the illegal immigrants? You don't want competition. The truth is that immigrants are outsmarting locals. Radicals that want to get rid of illegal immigrants may do so but will have to pick the bill. There are lots of foreclosures and unpaid mortgages because you are by making more difficult for illegal immigrants to work. Keep getting rid of them, and let's see what's left of the USA economy.

RE: you should all go to The On | 4:35 p.m. Nov. 28, 2008

I have one simple phrase for you: "Separation of Church and State".

It is fine for you to love your neighbor, but the state makes and must enforce the laws and the constitution.

Or we will no longer have country, especially a country where all are equal before the law and the laws apply to all.

TO ALEX | 5:12 p.m. Nov. 28, 2008

Leave the poor people alone? Who would educate their children? Who would pay for their emergency room visits? Who would pay for their medical needs? Who would pay for their housing? Who would pay for school their lunches? Who would pay for Immigration Head Start? The list goes on. If we left them alone our taxes would drop considerably. Illegal immigration is going to be a major contributor to the bankruptcy of the U. S. People like you and our elected officials canï¿½t seem to understand that. Our elected officials need to be brought to justice for what they have allowed to happen. Illegal immigrants come here and expect us to become Mexicans. They donï¿½t want to become Americans. People like you are out of touch with reality.

Bixby | 7:14 p.m. Nov. 28, 2008

As long as Utah offers so many benefits for coming here for illegal immigrants why should they not come? Reading some of the readers comments in the Los Angeles Times most are of the opinion to, and not nicely, to force them back to Mexico and other third world countries south of the border and supporting laws that do just that.
California's budget troubles are widely known and the whole love thy neighbor rhetoric is overblown. Reform these countries, stop the rampant corruption, the kidnappings, reform drug war laws and take away the power of the cartels, create more real and non exploitative opportunites for people in Latin America countries and make sure people don't expoit them here as many employers are to blame as well.
It's idiotic to me for people to flee their repressive countries and then wave the Mexican flag here, there is no respect for the United States for many I've seen and it's troubling to me.

SLMG | 7:24 p.m. Nov. 28, 2008

To: TO Alex 5:12 p.m. Nov. 28, 2008,

What about the illegal ones flowing across the Canadian Border, are they okay because they are not brown and don't speak spanish?????

Buzzm1 | 8:27 p.m. Nov. 28, 2008

Dear Legislators,

Mandate, AND STRICTLY ENFORCE, E-Verify for ALL employers, for ALL employees, and for ANY benefit, and the I.C.E. raids, as well as all of the expemsive new detention facilities, would not be needed.

The illegals would have to begin leaving of their own accord.

Think of the economic effect of giving the 8.7 million jobs, that the illegals have illegally obtained, using forged, or stolen documents, back to Americans.

Think of the economic effect of 65 billion more dollars being spent in our United States, rather than being remitted to Mexico, and South America.

Think of the money saved by decreasing I.C.E.'s effort.

Think of it, and then let's do it!!!

BOYCOTT ANY BUSINESS THAT HIRES ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS!!!

AND LET THEM KNOW ABOUT IT!!!

DURING HARD TIMES, WE CAN HAVE AN IMPACT!!!

Buzzm1 | 8:29 p.m. Nov. 28, 2008

SUPPORT THE ALL-AMERICAN STIMULUS PLAN!!!

THE ALL-AMERICAN STIMULUS PLAN WILL PROVIDE JOBS FOR 8.7 MILLION UNEMPLOYED AMERICAN WORKERS AND IT WON'T COST ANYTHING!!!

MANDATE E-VERIFY, FOR ALL EMPLOYEES, AND FOR ALL EMPLOYERS, AND IT WILL GENERATE 8.7 MILLION JOBS FOR UNEMPLOYED AMERICAN WORKERS!!!

Illegals, using forged, and/or stolen identities, have illegally obtained up to 8.7 million jobs; these are jobs that Americans will do, jobs in food processing, jobs in manufacturing; these are jobs that rightfully belonged to American workers in the first place.

THE ALL-AMERICAN STIMULUS PLAN WILL SAVE AMERICAN TAXPAYERS 300 BILLION DOLLARS EACH, AND EVERY, YEAR (the estimated annual cost of illegal immigrants to American taxpayers)!!!

SUPPORT THE ALL-AMERICAN STIMULUS PLAN!!!

REMEMBER, IT WON'T COST ANYTHING!!!

Buzzm1 | 8:41 p.m. Nov. 28, 2008

ENFORCE OUR LAWS AGAINST ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION!!!

THERE WILL BE NO AMNESTY!!!

OUR ACCEPTABLE IMMIGRATION REFORM

#1. Make Illegal Entry a Felony Permanently Barring Citizenship
#2. Secure Our Borders with our National Guard!!!
#3. Mandate E-Verify for ALL Employees!!!
#4. Cut Off ALL Public Assistance to Illegals and Their Children!!!
#5. Stop the Underground Economy!!!
#6. End Birthright Citizenship for Illegals!!!
#7. End Chain Migration!!!
#8. Make English our Official Language!!!
#9. Cut Off Federal Funds to Sanctuary Cities!!

NOTHING MORE!!! NOTHING LESS!!!

Soul | 8:44 p.m. Nov. 28, 2008

First, slam the borders shut to illegal migration. Then figure out a fair and balanced formula for the 12 million illegals to get 5 year work permits ($5000 for each work age illegal), whereby they can prove themselves as law abinding residents, and serious enough to receiving their own green cards.

Otherwise, good luck on trying to evict from the United States a group of peole 4 times the population of Utah.

Buzzm1 | 8:56 p.m. Nov. 28, 2008

E-Verify has already been proven a success among private companies. Many have been voluntarily using E-Verify for more than a decade. Arizona has the largest number of businesses using E-Verify. That's followed by California, Georgia, Colorado and Texas. It's worth repeating. The Department of Homeland Security says 99.6 percent of qualified employees are cleared immediately by E-Verify.

By The Numbers
91,032 employers enrolled in E-Verify
6.6 million employees E-Verified as of FY2008
600,000 employees E-Verifed so far in FY2009
Updated November 14, 2008

Renewed Crackdown On Illegal Immigrants

U.S. Plans to Target 140,000 Employers

The Bush administration in its final weeks will revive a stalled crackdown on U.S. companies that hire illegal immigrants, issuing a new regulation and asking a federal judge to lift a ban on the measure, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff announced yesterday.

If the court agrees, the government could begin mailing notices to 140,000 employers regarding suspect Social Security numbers used by an estimated 8.7 million workers, pressuring businesses to either resolve discrepancies or fire workers within 90 days.

lennybeachboy | 12:29 p.m. Nov. 29, 2008

Social Security Should Notify AMERICANS When More Than One Person Is Using Our Number ... WE DESERVE THIS SIMPLE SAFEGAURD AGAINST IDENTITY THEFT !!! Send The No Match Letters Now And WATCH MILLIONS OF AMERICANS GET THIER JOBS BACK NOW !!! VAMOOS ! ILLEGAL ALIENS !!! LEAVE OUR JOBS ALONE ...

frank bowers | 2:41 p.m. Nov. 29, 2008

I think the jobsites all of them should require three things a picture ID from a state Drivers license, Birth Certificate, and a Social Sercurity card and nothing more if they do not line up with the federal government informatin they get arrested and hauled to jail for confirmation or deportation. Frank

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