Deseret News | LDS have big image problem

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LDS have big image problem

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John Pack Lambert | 3:37 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

The Proclamation on the Family to The World was issued in 1995.
It is central to Latter-day Saint doctrine that the answers to all questions are not found in the scriptures and that is why God calls prophets today, to continue to give us guidance and direction.
Jesus Christ is at the helm of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He is our leader.
Just because I do not spend all my time responding to people's attacks on my comments does not mean they have come up with something I can not reply to.
We believe in a living Jesus, meaning he can give us more guidance than we have recieved in the past.
I will not be silenced. No more than was Jose Nunez silenced when he was beaten by the anti-8 thugs.

realitycheck | 3:54 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

re David 12:15pm

so.... how many saints do you know?

Another | 3:55 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

Insipid Lee Benson column. What a waste of space.

Comments continue below

to John Pack Lambert | 3:58 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

"To Mr. Halley,

Read "The Family, A Proclamation to the World". This is a document issued by all the apostles of Jesus Christ living at the time. If anything tells us what his teachings are on issues of are day, this does. "

so when was this written? and who translated it for you? You all are amazing - taking old greek and roman writings and translating them to benefit your point, rather than as they were actually written...

it actually says there is nothing wrong with being gay - but it depends on your translator...

Elder C | 4:13 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

What the lay Mormon doesn't understand is that fewer and fewer Americans have any patience with Mormons' paranoid "chosen people" attitude. In fact, they find it increasingly irritating. Americans are, for the most part, inclusive; while LDS members act exclusive. It makes them quite unlikable.

The reason for the Proposition 8 public relations disaster lies in this kind of naive and narcissistic thinking. While the church has grown used to its omnipotent political clout here in Utah, presuming that clout can be exported without paying any price has proved the church is tone-deaf to how it is perceived nationally.

In the future, as inborn homosexuality becomes more and more accepted as a mere fact of life, the LDS church leaders who propagated this myth of sinfulness will be thought of in the same vein as the die-hard racist segregationists who fought against civil rights based on inborn skin color.

Gary Halley | 4:26 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

You LDS folks certainly are adept at dancing around a question without proffering any sort of a logical or legitimate answer. From what I am able to obtain from your posts, homosexuality is a sin whether or not Christ mentioned it in either the New Testament or Book of Mormon. We are just to conclude that it is sinful because everybody knows it is. It seems to this observer that the Old Testament contains the only scriptures validating your claim. If this is the case, do you also favor the stoning of adulterers and recalcitrant children?

I'm sorry that my posts would seem contentious to some but I am seriously trying to ascertain what standards the LDS Church uses to legitimize this war on homosexual rights.

re: Howard Stucki | 4:30 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

What makes you think you are "the righteous?" Don't you think righteousness is based on what you do, not what group you've joined?

realitycheck | 4:31 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

re "To Mr Halley" 2:37pm

"He made it quite clear how he feels about marriage, what defines it, and about sexual relations outside of marriage. We are all expected to follow those rules, regardless of who we find attractive, or we will have to explain to God why we didn't keep His commandments."

what? His Commandments? You need to reread your bible. There are 10 commandments, and none say anything about marriage or sex outside of marriage. God made sex fun for a reason - you all just lost sight of that and got too "holier than thou" in your beliefs. Matter of fact, you have a lot of "rules" that have no basis in the bible or Jesus - it's your leaders pushing their "Temperance League" mentality onto you...

Why do you all insist on making things up? If you're going to say you follow the "true teachings of Jesus" then perhaps you should go back to basics instead of following an 1800s philosopher...

observer | 4:37 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

Ain't it nice when we can all chat like this?

Truth! | 4:38 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

I realize that all things are a matter of perspective, with that being said, what's the OBJECTIVE of the church? (For those that might know I'm talking of the 3 missions)

Perfect the saints
Preach the gospel
Redeem the dead

The church is focused on it's mission. I can not think of a single thing that the "Church" has done to exclude anyone. (Doctrine may exclude, as has always been; ie Priesthood,Levites,Blacks. But they seem to be on Gods timetable, not ours)

We as members on the other hand still need "the perfecting" and are working on that. Some more than others, some faster than others. But if the large group of people that know little, or are prejudesed will truely look at what is taught, they will find love that will fill the world!

Vicky | 4:41 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

"Jesus Christ is at the helm of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He is our leader."

I talk to Jesus every day, and frankly, he has never heard of the Mormons or the Latter-day Saints!

Anonymous | 4:43 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

To realitycheck,

"an 1800's philosopher"???

Joseph Smith was many things, but a "philosopher" was NOT one of them! He was a treasure hunter. He was a philanderer. He was a convicted felon. But he was NEVER a philosopher.

realitycheck | 4:44 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

re John Pack Lambert 3:37pm

it was written in 1995??? and you call that Jesus' words?

do we need to get you a calendar, cuz you're off by a couple thousand years....

and if Jesus is living, could I get his cell number? I have some questions....

Ok - sarcasm aside... do you realize that the bible was written to be a user guide, not a detailed maintenance manual? It's simply to provide insight into right and wrong, not to be taken line for line and a rule made for each.

and while I appreciate you have leaders, how can you possibly think that they have God's ear and actually have revelations? has it occurred to you that your tithing is promoting one of the largest pyramid scams in history?

sorry - just thought I'd throw a little reality into your rightous little world...

Misnomer | 4:48 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

Hey, realitycheck, you need one yourself. While I agree with your sentiment, remember "Thou shall not commit adultery"? It's one of the Ten Commandments.

However, by definition, adultery can only be committed by a married person. So, the Ten Commandments do not condemn a gay person unless, of course, that gay person is married. And the church has, to its future chagrin, precluded that possibility.

Gary Halley | 4:55 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

Mr. Lambert says,
"It is central to Latter-day Saint doctrine that the answers to all questions are not found in the scriptures and that is why God calls prophets today, to continue to give us guidance and direction."

So tell me, Mr. Lambert, why should a skeptic like myself not feel that your church is manufacturing this religion as it goes along? If Jesus Christ truly is at the helm of your church, as you say, then why do your chosen leaders continue to break it's doctrine, i.e., D&C 134:4 - 9? Those cautions against religious opinions infringing upon the rights and liberties of others were completely disregarded in this war on gay rights.

HA HA HA | 4:57 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

Mr Halley was getting contentious???

That is hilarious, given the numerous postings by the gas bag himself, Mr. Lambert.

Biblios | 5:00 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

Bible: Book of Books. The bible as we know it was compiled centuries after Christ walked with His Apostles. The word Bible or Biblios means book of books. Revelations as well as another book in the old testament warn about 'Not adding to or taking away' and obviously are meant for the particular books in which they are found. Its true, you shouldn't delete the book of revelations.. but if no other scripture can be put along side of it as a testament of Christ then that negates the entire New Testament. Sorry but the old "can't add to or take away" argument is the silliest anti-mormon thing I have ever heard of and doesn't last two seconds in any educated discussion of theology. Some of my best friends are LDS. They are not perfect, but I think their Church is getting a raw deal with this bigotry in America.

re John Pack Lambert 3:37pm | 5:01 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

and how many gays have been beaten by anti-gay thugs, under the guise of religious zealotry? you have one example - the gays have hundreds...

Mr. Gary Halley - Please read | 5:02 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

Please Read Romans Chapter 1. Pay particular attention to verses 26 and 27. This is the Apostle Paul talking about unnatural acts and the consequences of doing them.

Now before you respond and say this is not Jesus Christ talking Paul was one of the chosen twelve. By virtue of that fact he represents the views of the Savior. Also please don't respond that he was sexually repressed etc. etc.

Also, the scriptures talk at length about a man leaving his father and mother and cleaving unto his WIFE. I don't have the references handy but I'll get it for you if you can't dig it out yourself. It's found in the bible that you own.

Mr. Halley Continued... | 5:12 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

Please also pay attention to Romans Chapter 1, verse 32. And you say we more Mormons are intollerant.

Does God Live? | 5:14 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

If God lives and loves us... why would he teach us some things 2000 years ago and then just stop and never teach again? If God knows all then he surely would have known how much the world would change over the centuries and that His children would be in need of current revelation..
So many "brilliant" people posting on here.. but I haven't see one logical answer..
I guess I better go throw a brick through a window. That'll show those people that believe different than me!!

Fred | 5:22 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

In response to the person addressing their comments to me, my keyboard failed and I didn't get to finish my previous comment. Utah and the LDS church have a lot of good things going. I raised 3 children here who were discriminated against because we were not Mormon. I find the small minded Utah politicians like Chris Buttars and his blatent bigotry embarrassing. When I moved here the boy scouts and blacks and the priesthood issue were hot. My son, white as they come, was discriminated against in the boyscouts and dropped out just before he made eagle because it got so bad. My daughters came home from school in tears over and over as they became shunned by Mormons in middle school. We had our house egged and vehicle windows shot out with bb guns by persons unknown over and over. I do want to say that most of my friends here are LDS or ex-LDS. It's not a lack of familiarity. I built a life and business here. An LDS politician holding and expressing values like mine would be excommunicated like so many scholars have been so it would be impossible for me to vote for such.

RE: Anonymous@4:43 | 5:27 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

Uh--I'll have to disagree with you on the "philander" and "convicted felon" about Joseph Smith. I'm sure you're referring to the polygamous teachings, so we'll have to agree to disagree about the "philanderer" part. But you need to disclose exactly what felonies anyone ever CONVICTED Joseph Smith of committing.

Come on, Anonymous. Let's hear the complete list, dates, court venues, and judges before whom the case was tried. As an added bonus, please add the list of ACQUITTALS and "Case Never Tried." Show you actually did your research instead of just listening to some over-the-fence gossip somebody told you.

Again: Let's hear each and every single felony that Joseph Smith was convicted of committing!

God is inside you | 5:35 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

to "Does God Live" 5:14pm

perhaps if you would realize that the teachings of Jesus Christ are timeless, and should be taken as is - not added to - and that the bible is a user guide, not a detailed operators manual - then it would be clear to you...

you can learn lessons from the bible - and you can learn lessons from Aesops Fables. Neither holds more weight than the other - and both have strong messages that will help a person stay on course.

listen to your conscience - that's Gods voice guiding you through life.

Beth | 5:40 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

To those commentors who say we are not charitable; we are the the most charitable but do not need nor have to disclose that to anyone, anyone. It is good enough that we know in ou hearts and efforts and how much we give. If you try to tear that down you are just ignorant. We are also giving Salt Lake City a beatiful mall for all to shop and dine in. It is not just for LDS but for everyone. We give until we bleed. I can't wait until we have our new mall and you are able to visit downtown. We will see who takes there words back. Some of you are mean.

Louis James Robison | 5:46 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

After reading these comments I think LDS have more of an attitude problem that contributes to the poor image perception. I read an article over the weekend that a poll had ranked LDS just below muslims in a favorable rating that was just below 30%. Wow that is 2 in 3 that disapprove. I know these are hard times but the Church needs to look within and the culture, attidute and ultimately some of the hardline and nonsensical doctrine will need to change; others the Church will eventually desolve and spinter in smaller more viable groups.

DMH | 5:49 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

My post here is to urge all of the LDS members to remember that Christ taught us to love all men. The only way that we are going to help the Gospel message to spread is we must be friends with as many people possible. I will admit that most of my friends are LDS, but not because they are the only people that I want to associate with. I have a few neighbors that are not LDS that I am on good terms with and we do many activities together, but I have also found myself shunned by the rest of the world because of my religion. The posters out there that have been shunned by their LDS neighbors, I am truly sorry for your situation and experience, but you also need to understand that we have also been treated very harshly by others not of our faith also. Therefore, we all need to bury the hatchet and start over. Anyone who is not LDS should not have to worry about being the next missionary project, and the LDS people do not need to be treated rudely by others either.

re DHM | 6:03 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

if Christ taught you to love all men, then does that mean you approve of gay men? and what about the women?

see - your problem is you still consider women to be the lesser sex. how medieval.

Gary Halley | 6:03 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

To: No Name, quoting Romans,

The modern day version of the apostle Paul would be Ted Haggard. He also claimed to speak for Jesus. I'm not looking for quotes from these types...just Christ himself. If you can't produce any, please don't clutter up the board.

Gary Halley - I'll be watching f | 6:07 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

for your response to scripture..Again read Romans Chapter 1. You stated "You LDS folks are adept at dancing around a question...". Just for the record I am not dancing.

You wanted scriptorial basis for opposition to homosexuality. You've got it.

roger | 6:16 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

I hope they don't see us unfavorably why would they?

re: Lambert | 6:27 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

"I will not be silenced."

Bummer

pashaw! | 6:41 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

Image Shmimage. My dad told me not to worry about what other people think; just do what I think is right.

ah yes | 6:47 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

the band plays on ...just enjoy the good while it is here ...in life we know there's lots of grieve, while i'm waiting for my turn...i don't want to wait in vain for his love....so 70x70 doesn't appear on here!

this is news? | 6:50 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

1000 isnt enough to be a good sample especially representing an entire nation. so what if it was 1000 random people from 50 states. a survey which is supposed to represent nation should have a sample larger than just a thousand.

shawilli | 6:59 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

Take away the "holier than thou" attitude that this church reeks of and take away the secrecy about finances and church wealth and be more open and honest abour our beliefs and that includes the good with the bad and peoples perception about us may change.The church is still too uncomfortable with explaining it's early history and there are far too many unanswered questions about past doctrines and practices in this church. The average member knows the sanitized and official history but search a bit below the surface and there are still far too many weird and unanswered questions everyone knows about but refuses to talk about openly. I am not at all surprised that this church in spite of the many millions this church has spent to try an improve it image people still look at the church with distain and mistrust. In 1830 this church was unpopular and very sadly some 179 years later not all that much has changed.

exodus | 7:01 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

movement of the people.....movement of the people...move! show the LOVE!! True equality...set the captive freee!!

Howard Stucki | 7:27 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

Back in the 1960's the Church had a campaign for
the Mutual Improvement Assoc. that contained the
catch phrase 'DARE TO BE DIFFERENT'. I think we
continue to follow that advice. Who cares what
the world thinks of us. For every one of the
comments that are negative there are a 100 people with unspoken admiration for the Church. Nothing
can stop this Church from progressing except wickedness by the members. Follow the prophet, not the world.

Romney Revisited | 7:35 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

Several of you are claiming that Romney was "utterly rejected" in the recent GOP primaries by America.

You'd better go back and check your facts and the delegate math.

Out of all the GOP wanna-be's (what were there?...7 or 8 or so???) he beat them all except McCain, and that includes the back-stabbing, "who me? that was an honest question Huckabee". Yes, even though Romney dropped out before Huckabee, even when Huckabee finally stopped his campaign about 2-3 weeks after Romney he STILL didn't have as many delegates as Romney. Had it not been for FL Governor Charlee Christ (sp?) throwing his weight behind McCain at the last moment AND McCain literally lying about Romney's "non-get out of Iraq timeline" statement to Flordidians 2 days before Super Tuesday, you just might have a Mormon president-elect.

So....even with all the false perceptions and often flat out lies being told to Americans about Mormons, what Romney, and therefore by extension the LDS church, stands for is hard to ignore or argue against the common sense of it.

Jonathan | 7:47 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

To All the anti-mormons, if you are so damaged and hate living among mormons then leave. I-15 leads N-S and I 80 leads E-W. There are many opportunities out there to live people of your ilk. If you don't like it then leave.

Why stay living in the misery of loving and caring people? You people are to much.

To: Anonymous 4:09 Nov. 23rd | 8:12 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

You said that the LDS church goes against the Bible because we have additional scripture (the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price), which, in your interpretation, contradicts John the Revelator's warning of adding to or taking away from the words of God.

However, Moses said the same thing; "don't add or take away", in the Old Testament book of Deuteronomy. Read this:

"Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you." - Deut. 4:2

If you believe John the Revelator meant "don't add anything to the scriptures as a whole" then you must interpret Moses's warning as the same thing. However, if you do that you automatically negate the other 34 books of the Old Testament that follow Deuteronomy as well as all 27 books of the New Testament. In your view, that's 61 books of scripture that are worthless.

However, John the Revelator didn't mean "don't add to the scriptures (the Bible) as a whole", he meant "don't add to MY book" (Revelations).

Moses meant that too (Deuteronomy).

What We Need | 8:51 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

To my LDS brothers and sisters: please don't skewer this good brother who is really sharing with us the observations of our non-LDS friends and neighbors. These aren't his opinins but rather the opinions of those around us.

Staying true to the Gospel is certainly desired above ALL else but if we can stay true to the Gospel of Jesus Christ AND be understood while we do it then how is that a bad thing? (Notice I didn't say "be well liked" by our neighbors, I said be "understood".

We may not always be liked, even when we love and serve others (look at what service and unconditional love did for Christ; He was spit on and crucified) BUT we can certainly be understood, as in, "I don't agree with my neighbor saying homosexuality is wrong but I understand why he says that and I know he lives that principle himself".

There you have it: clarity of message and consistency in our attempts to live it AND to do it all without acting as if we're better than anyone else. If we do this we may not be popular but we will certainly earn the respect of others.

John Pack Lambert | 8:54 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

To the 6:03 commentator,
The term "all men" in the context that DMH used it is not gender specific. It encompasses both males and females.
Beyond that you assume everything else you say against DMH, with no evidence for your statements based on what he said.

John Pack Lambert | 8:58 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

To Jonathan at 7:47,
If you are a member of the LDS Church you have clearly failed to read or at least head the teachings of the living prophets.
M. Russel Ballard stated in a recent General COnference talk that we should NEVER, AbSOLUTELY NEVER suggest that those who disagree with us move away.
When will people start following the counsel given in general conference?

Debbie | 9:00 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

Ive been mentally damaged by this blog!

So Mr. Halley | 9:09 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

you asked for direct quotes from Christ condemning homosexuality. In both Matthew and Mark he states that a man shall cleave unto his wife. He also goes on to say that violating that covenant of marriage is adultery. Which he confirms is a sin.

Now, can you provide me with direct evidence that Christ ever condoned homosexuality. Keep in mind that through example and teaching Christ showed that sin is unacceptable and not tolerated, but that we should still love the sinner.

CTR | 9:16 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

Just read some of the BYU comments on the sports stories and you can see why the LDS have an image problem.

Puhhhh-leeeeease! | 9:22 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

$5-7 BILLION (yes, that a "B") to demolish the Crossroads mall and build a new building in it's place?

I don't know where you got your numbers from but I can tell you now it's way, waaay, waaaaaaay too high.

Quit talking only smack about how "little" the LDS church has donated in terms of money or material in the last 2 decades. You claim it's not near enough but I ask you, would we be impressed by YOUR charitable giving to say "now THERE goes a Christian!"

RE: Jonathan@7:47 | 9:37 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

This just in from the "not-getting-it" department: Jonathan, don't you understand that ATTITUDES JUST LIKE YOURS are primarily responsible for this problem?

Why don't YOU move somewhere where you're an outsider, but you'd like to be valued for being just who you are and (I hope) a halfway decent human being--and have THEM tell YOU that? Just because YOU'RE different? Put the shoe on the other foot and see how it feels, man.

President Hinckley himself asked Church members to knock off the "If you don't like it, LEAVE" attitude several years ago. It's unkind. It's territorial. It alienates people. And it's one of the attitudes directly responsible for non-LDS--AND LDS!--dislike of Utah.

LDS people--and I'm active, thanks--need to open their hearts and minds and look for what's good in the non-LDS around us--NOT shun them as if they have a disease and tell them to leave.

How Christlike is that?

Mt. Pleasant RM | 9:46 p.m. Nov. 24, 2008

Hate is hate. I have seen it on my street I have seen it on my mission and I have seen it on this blog. Enough is enough people. We offer mor than you could fathom but you reject it, all you give is hate. I don't get it, we have done nothing to offend you. Please be civil.

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