Deseret News | LDS have big image problem

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LDS have big image problem

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Judge Not: | 9:45 a.m. Nov. 23, 2008

likes to judge everyone else. The Lord never condoned gay behavior.

Henry Drummond | 9:49 a.m. Nov. 23, 2008

I think the big problem here is that the Mormons are so anxious to be understood that they rarely take time to understand the feelings of others.

For example, Mormons believe that Baptism is something of a contract between man and God. Only someone who is authorized of God can make that contract. They also assume that the rest of the Christian world believes in the contract analogy as well. The fact is they don't.

Most Christians view Baptism the same way they view prayer. It is simply an act of faith and a way of approaching God through ritual. They don't see it as obligating God to do anything anymore than prayer does.

Can you see the problem when Mormon missionaries show up on people's doorstep telling them that their Baptism isn't valid? Its like telling someone they aren't authorized to pray.

Then when people react to this message by saying Mormons aren't Christian, the Mormons go into "persecution mode" where they start bemoaning how terrible everyone treats them.

If you want to be better understood, try understanding the people you are preaching to first.

We're missing the point | 9:49 a.m. Nov. 23, 2008

What I got from this article is that people don't understand or haven't heard our message, that this is a RESTORED gospel. I don't think we should be concerned about popularity, but that people have the right information to decide how they feel about this gospel.

Pay less attention to football games, and spend more time studying our own religion so that we understand our own message.

Comments continue below

Fred | 9:59 a.m. Nov. 23, 2008

When Mitt Romney's father ran for president I lived in the rustbelt, knew nothing about Mormans except seagulls, polygamy and crikets, which amounts to nothing, and supported his run. Having lived in Utah for 35 years I now know far more about Mormans and living under their rule. I would never vote for one for president and look forward to the day we cease having a one party state dominated by one religion. I don't appreciate having Mormon beliefs have the force of law. As long as the church does things like the prop 8 campaign I will fight against them 100%.

re: californian #3 | 10:05 a.m. Nov. 23, 2008

yep, we are the chosen who are responsible for saving people like you, if you keep fighting it and being stubborn then you will have to live with it. why not be happy now, ask a member more info about the church!!!

MrUnPopular | 10:12 a.m. Nov. 23, 2008

I travel in business as a Consultant all over the World. Quite often the client and fellow employees want me to take them to strip clubs and such. I redirect them elsewhere, or excuse myself for the evening while they go to such places. Thus, I am not very popular with the party crowd -- and I COULD CARE LESS!

I will not compromise my principles and ethics to be "POPULAR". Niether will the LDS Church. The LDS Church is not upon the earth to be popular -- but to teach the truth and bring people unto Christ. Niether was Christ. In fact, the Nazerene was crucified by the masses due to his unpopularity.

Will the LDS Church now enter a new era of persecution because we refuse to compromise morality and ethics to the alter of Homosexuality?

So be it. So it was in the days of Noah, the times of Sodom, and perhaps the times of today.

Marv | 10:18 a.m. Nov. 23, 2008

Gary lawerence was my Bishop a number of years ago - He did a great job. I remember him telling me he believed that the persecution of the church would one day be intensified over the gay rights issue. It appears he was correct. The Lord's church is not afraid to offend the devil and his minions. All members should be reminded that major testing of our commitment to Christ will be the order of the day here in the last days.

re: Californian #3 | 10:22 a.m. Nov. 23, 2008

I have lived the vast majority of my life outside Utah/Idaho/Arizona in mainly what could be considered the Bible Belt. I have never considered myself "self-righteous" or "God's annointed" simply because I have met many, many wonderful people of other religions who have a lot to offer in the way they live their lives.

I now live in Utah in an area predominately LDS. My neighbors on both sides are not practicing members of the church. Regardless they have taught me many good things about living a truly Christ-like life. Frankly I have learned more from them than I have in most of my Church meetings. But I continue to go simply in an effort to improve myself and learn to teach my children.

Most Church members I know understand they are no more important or perfect than anyone else. They look to examples inside and outside the church for inspiration. It is unfortunate that there are some "self-righteous" and "anointed" members who give the rest of us a bad reputation. However, every social, political, or religious group has the same problem, the few who claim to represent the many. Unfortunately they are the ones remembered.

Zoo Mom | 10:22 a.m. Nov. 23, 2008

I agree with The Mission Field & Mission Field Memo. I am a 20 year convert to the LDS church. It has frustrated me to see other members turn their nose up at someone because they're not "active" or they are not a member. This seems to be one of the reasons why LDS are not held in such high regard. I have appreciated Pres. Hinckley's admonition to be more loving and tolerant of others, especially those who do not believe as we do. Accepting people for who they are, regardless of their beliefs, is what will turn the world's opinion of us around. Christ accepted the adultress, but He didn't condone what she did. I have a relative who is gay. I don't agree with his lifestyle but I still love him and accept him.

re: Old Friend | 10:35 a.m. Nov. 23, 2008

Actually if you were to follow Christ's example those arms would be open regardless of whether Clint decides to return or not. Any time you see "Clint" he should be treated with love and respect. If you still love him and will always call him friend it should never be conditional!!

Humanitarian | 10:45 a.m. Nov. 23, 2008

I wonder if the world at large knows or acknowledges all the good that the LDS Church does in the world that is not directly related to proselytizing. The church sends tens of millions of dollars worth of humanitarian aid all around the world to help innoculate children against disease, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, shelter the homeless, and so forth. I wonder if any other church renders as much humanitarian aid as the LDS Church. This does not include all the volunteer time donated by members and friends of other faiths to aid this volunteer effort. I think if there was more awareness about that, it would help the LDS Church's image... As for LDS church members being perceived as insular and weird by their neighbors in Utah and Idaho, I don't think that opinion will change much by those who hold that opinion. So much of the mormon culture is foreign to friends of other faiths that they won't fully understand it because they're not in it... anymore than I could fully understand what it's like to be Jewish in Yonkers or African American in Birmingham.

to Henry Drummond | 10:54 a.m. Nov. 23, 2008

You nailed it exactly. In order to be understood, you have to understand others. In order to be supported in your own religions, you have to support others in their religions.

ATC | 10:56 a.m. Nov. 23, 2008

I think the problem is we have lots of members, but not enough true members. There are people who go to church, but just don't get it, so the world sees these people and judges us. I think prop 8 was a good example because of all the member who didn't agree with the church on same sex marriage. I don't see how you can go to church and consider yourself a true member if you go against the church.

SlowS | 10:57 a.m. Nov. 23, 2008

LDS have big image problem? Strike image and replace it with "credibility".

Alex | 11:02 a.m. Nov. 23, 2008

Perhaps it would be good to forget image. I think we are at our best when we strive to do what is right, be unapologetic about the Lord and His restored church with a brazen disregard for how it will effect our stock in the world of public opinion.

The fact is that I LOVE the restored Gospel, publicly approved or not. Heaven help me, I love it more than life. While these polls are useful in gauging how well our message is being received, if you look at them a little too much, it can lead you to false conclusions about what is going on. The fact is that while to some degree we have experienced a slowdown in interest in many places, consider that other religions are experiencing a downturn. Yes they are.

The way to proceed is to do what the Brethren have done: put our necks on the line like we did with Prop. 8. Public relations people would never have advised such a move. The only image we need to worry about is Christ's image in our countenance. Things will work out in time.

Pete | 11:12 a.m. Nov. 23, 2008

Ah, you defined the problem in a nutshell.

Mayby you mormons have the goods and maybe you dont. I dont know, and neither do you.

So, let others practice their religion and you practice yours.

As far as we know, yours is no better.

Former Mormon | 11:14 a.m. Nov. 23, 2008

I left the church a few years ago.

Part of the problem with the church's PR image is that they do not talk about the good things the church does. The church got PR about the calender excommunication, they got PR over the prop 8 stuff, etc. The church rarely makes sure that people know the good stuff that they do. For example, when so many BYU students helped in Thailand after the Tsunam, and they did it to celebrate Joseph Smith's birthday instead of a parade. (if you search about Joseph Smith's Tsunami Rescue Brigade you will find it online). People's opinon of mormons would go up if they knew more about the service, and didn't just focus on the things that people find strange.

Wow,,, | 11:19 a.m. Nov. 23, 2008

These comments are pretty harsh! Everyone needs to take a deep breath. You've got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything.

Lets not forget | 11:34 a.m. Nov. 23, 2008

I TOTALLY agree with the results of the survey. We are not known...

BUT we are more known then 10 years ago thanks to President Hinckley, the Olympics etc.

In 2002 a foreign parliament member on his tird day in SLC during the 2002 Games said to me:
"It is horrible to think, that I have lived 35 years (his age) in a fallacy and not known the truth about you people."

We will NEVER be able to rise out of obscurity if we just wait for the church to do it... It is NOT the church's job - but our's, as a people.
BUT the church's duty is to assist and help us, members, to do it. (just like it did in 2002 - and we mastered beyond all imagination)

greetings from a foreign country - far away from "the center stakes"

Californian #4 | 11:38 a.m. Nov. 23, 2008

I vote with Californian #3. Well said.

re: MrUnPopular | 11:50 a.m. Nov. 23, 2008

I recall a meeting I had in San Francisco. We all went out to dinner that night. I, being the one of three non-drinkers in the group was handed the keys to one of the cars. After dinner we were directed to the "club" district for the nights entertainment. As we were rounding the block I noticed a pool hall that looked respectable about a block from the "club". We parked and they started walking to the "club", I however turned and headed the opposite direction to the pool hall. I commented as I was turning to leave that someone needed to call me when they were done so I could meet them to drive back to the hotel. Interestingly enough of the 15 people that were there 5 others followed me to play pool.

There are many people who hold very similar values. All they need is someone to lead out. At subsequent meetings, and without any fanfare, things were arranged so that those of us who didn't want to go to the clubs were all in the same car; we could come and go without a problem.

Anonymous | 12:05 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

Here a thought whats the opinion of the church in other nations like Mexico, Samoa or the Philipines? What do the people think of Mormons in New Orlean or other disaster areas where we send humanitarion aid? Don't forget the retored gospel is for the world and not just America or Utahns.

Em | 12:08 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

LDS have big image problem? Strike image and replace it with "credibility".

Interesting. This is a common critique from people who don't like the Mormons or their religion. However, I know of no other religion today that invites people to study, pray and come to their own conclusion about whether or not the gospel is true. How do the Mormons then lack credibility? Sure, most Mormon members of the church who assert that the Mormon church is the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and the only 'true' church on the earth. However, most Mormons (there are always a few idiots) will tell you that although they believe it is true, you can find out (read: think for yourself) personally whether or not it is true. They assert that God Himself will confirm this for you. Any Mormon that knows their stuff knows that no person or people can convert an individual. Only God can. Thus, they leave it to God to do so. There is nothing arrogant about it, and God is probably credible. Before you criticize, make sure you understand what you're criticizing.

Canadiandy | 12:15 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

Hmm, I don't remember joining this Church because it would make me popular. And looking at the moral direction of the world, I don't expect things to get better (47.5% of Californians actually put the rights of adults over the rights of children). But, as I've said in the past, the Church is here to stay.

I would be willing to bet the same results will be found for Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-Day Adventists, Mennonites, Episcopalians, and Hutterites. All good people, all trying to make the world a better place.

rdha | 12:17 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

People can only choose how they want to view Mormons. Unfortunately, certain people and events have screwed it up for the church. All that us LDS Church members can do is be the best friends, examples, and influences to people no matter if we score points or not. That's all I have to say.

Prop8 | 12:22 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

What's interesting to me is that when the gay community protested at the gates of LDS Temples in multiple cities, nobody thought it was inappropriate. But if they had protested a Jewish Synagogue, or a Black Baptist church, or another 'protected' entity, their would have been a huge outcry from the public. What makes it okay to blame and attack Mormons for politically asserting themselves? Freedom of speech and the right to actively campaign for or against an issue is what the United States is all about. God forbid (pardon the pun) that any powerful religious entity actually take a stand against something they think is wrong, and encourage their members to do the same. Many churches condemned Prop 8, where were the attacks on them? Since LDS members *chose* (they were not 'told' to do so)to back their political stance with money, how is that the fault of the lDS church? People keep mentioning that Mormons need to be more understanding. Very few non-members even attempt to understand Mormons. What's with that???

Dear Religious | 12:29 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

According to Galatians 1:8 unless they [apostles] or an angel declare it unto you do not believe it. An angel named Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith and told him where to find the plates describing Christ's dealings with the ancient Americans. Also in May or June of 1829 the Apostles Peter, James and John apppeared to Joseph Smith and gave him the authority to reorganize Christ's Church just as he had organized it. That is scripture, so if we follow your trend of thought Joseph Smith is a prophet and this is Christ's true church. Also our statement about adding nothing to this, is in Deuteronomy and as I understand the Gospel of John was written after Revelations. Should we therefore exclude everything after Deuteronomy and the Gospel of John. Man put together the books we consider as the bible. Christ quoted scriptures from the Old Testament, that we do not have. I assume you are saying he should not have quoted them because we can't read them. Amos 3:7 says God will reveal his secrets to his prophets. He can call who he wants as a prophet, it is not our choice to do that.

Get real | 12:32 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

You can neither prove nor disprove the veracity of any scripture by intellect alone. For centuries arguments have been made for and against the Bible and the Book of Mormon. Neither side of either book has ever won. The Mormons tell people to get their own answers, but they believe (or know) that the gospel is true for themselves. Every religion is entitled to their own beliefs, and Mormons are smart enough to send people to God for an answer. Sounds logical to me. Let's just leave the Mormons alone, live and let live.

To: Fred | 12:49 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

If Utah is ruled by the Mormon church and you find that offensive, why did you stay for 35 years? You generalize that you'd 'never vote one for president'. Sounds like a comment that would incite the public if you had been referring to gays, Blacks, Jews, women, Hispanics or any other race or entity. Are you absolutely certain that of the millions of Mormons in America, not one of them could possibly be qualified to run this country? Statisticians would laugh at your logic, and I'm giggling myself. If you knew 1/2 of the Mormons in Utah, that wouldn't even represent a sample of the entire LDS population. How unfortunate that based on a few Mormons that you know, you're angry enough to 'fight' the entire church. That's kind of like watching a couple of movies by MGM that you didn't like, and deciding that you'll never watch another movie by MGM. Sounds like your knowledge of the Mormons is based primarily on assumptions... Crickets, polygamy and seagulls aside. The Mormon church's 'image' is just that, an 'image'. Get past what something looks like and find out what it really is.

To Humanitarian | 1:07 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

On LDS charitable contribution: Lets go with the LDS church's own figures. Over the last 23 YEARS the church has given 260 million in cash and 751 million in material to charity. That works out to a meager 43 million per year or $3.70 per member. Contrast that to a church project to renovate a mall in downtown SLC that will cost an estimated 5 to 7 billion dollars. Please, don't pat the church on the back for being "charitable." The church was estimated a few years back to bring in about 6 billion dollars annually. How much money does God need?

You wondered if any other church renders as much humanitarian aid as the LDS Church? The LDS church is so far below most other mainstream christian religions in charitable giving that it's laughable. Almost all mormon church money is spent on building buildings, running it's investments, buying property and media outlets. None of these things really profit anyone anything other than making the church richer and increasing it's membership. One could make the case that it's not a religion, it's a corporation. Some corporations give more to charity than LDS Inc.

to: Em | 1:12 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

Em, the problem is that LDS church challenges it's members to study and pray. But when you tell them you didn't get the same answer they did, you are told they are under the influence of Satan and don't understand what you are doing, and that you are making the wrong decision. The God I believe in does not believe in the same things the LDS church does.

Building Christ's "Church" | 1:29 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

When the bible was translated from Hebrew to English and other languages, the people who did the translations inserted the word church instead of using the literal translation of the word written in hebrew, which happened to be "assembly." Christ didn't speak in large halls or temples or buildings...he taught outdoors in large open spaces. He didn't talk about building buildings and organizations...he spoke of the crowd gathered around him, listening to and practicing his teachings, nothing more. Man is the builder of churches, not Christ. Man is at the head of religions...not Christ. Man has committed more atrocities in the name of Christ than in the name of any other person. It's the very notion of being the only person who knows Christ, the only person who can speak for Christ that can often make people get mean, ugly, greedy, power hungry, and judgemental...all things that Christ hated and spoke out against.

You can't "own" Christ. You can't own God. Most people can't even comply with the simplest teachings which are doing good works to others, not judging, being humble, meek, forgiving. Yet they spend huge time and money doing the most hollow things like building churches.

Wheat and Tares | 1:31 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

LDS who choose or threaten to leave are only in it for the social aspect and must have a week testimony. It is probably better for you to move. We welcome you back when you are ready but if you choose not to follow the Prophet and condemn the Church then this is not the place for you. You love you as you are but living a lie does no one justice.

Glendmoor Srpings | 1:43 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

A business such as the LDS church does not reserve the same rights as religions. It's very simple, the protests are against a business and not a relgion. Paint it how you want but as you say truth is truth.

Easterner | 1:43 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

One of the things that brings such strond emotional reaction against the LDS Faith is the way you avoid the heavy doctrinal questions to inquirers. (I know "milk before meat" which is insulting.) You call anyone who asks about the location of the Garden of Eden, the plurality of Gods, or the contents of the King Follett Discourse as being anti-Mormon. When you are willing to be honest from the very beginning what you REALLY believe, instead of waiting until someone has read it themselves somewhere else, you will have a lot more credibility. As it is now, you pretend these very difficult questions are only for the advanced chosen few. Just be upfront about what you REALLY believe and stop calling those of us "antis" who disagree with you.

No Problem At All | 1:45 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

The biggest problem with the LDS church as far as image goes isn't a problem at all!

LDS members claim that they can become a god, which clashes fundamentally with the thoughts of a good chunk of Americans. What's upsetting (for me) is not this claim, but that the faith based claim is purposely hidden in the backlight.

The LDS church wants to focus on the restoration of the gospel, which sounds like a Christian basis, but want to keep non-Christian sounding beliefs out of the public eye. Deny them? No. But advertise them? Not at all.

As I see it, there is no problem with how the LDS church is seen.

P.S. "The Church" refers to the Catholic Church to 98% of the U.S. population

provo girl | 1:46 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

To Bart:
In order to give Jim McMahon his "hall of fame" placement, it is necessary that he do what all the other's have done....get the diploma. Without the diploma, no placement. You must follow the rules to get the acknowledgment. Simple as that. Graduate! All the others have!

About the fact that the church will loose or is loosing it's numbers...
we're the fastest growing religion in the U.S. and the 4th largest religion in the U.S. Look to the future, the stone is rolling forth....for those who seek wisdom, find it though reading the Book of Mormon, it will change your life.

Re: Henry D. | 1:53 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

Wow, can we call you Dr. Phil also?? Hope you feel better.

RE: Easterner | 2:01 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

I agree that a disagreement should not be considered "anti"--many LDS people probably overuse that term when people merely disagree with them. However, the "milk before meat" concept is in no way meant to be insulting...there are just certain things that will be understood more easily if a basis is established first...it's that way with any religion or subject in school...it's not unusual or degrading for someone to be required to take a 100-level stats class before they take a 300-level stats class....things will make more sense if a base is established. You're right, when people bring up the King Follett discourse, plurality of gods, and such, LDS members shouldn't jump the gun and cry out "anti." However, please understand that they are primed to do that because when those things are brought up, it is usually by someone who is anti...someone who either doesn't understand or isn't even trying to understand...but is merely seeking to attack rather than listen.

Dopp | 2:02 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

LDS have no image problem. All you antis need to look in the mirror and you will discover who as the problem.

Re: Provo girl | 2:10 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

Fastest growing. Hmmmm. By percentage depending on where you look it would be third or forth. By sheer volume, your not even in the ballpark. Jeez where to you guys get that from. The LDS church was contracting slightly before this issue. It will certainly have a snowball effect.

to Prop8 | 2:10 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

That's isn't true. The LDS church is not the only church that was protested. I live in CA and they are protesting tons of other places. I live accross the street from a Christian church and there are 1000 or so people over there protesting right now because of their involvement. The members of the LDS church gave the most money and did the most leg work, that is why they have the most protestes.

Please try to remember that the people's constitutional right was taken away (the supreme court of CA had determined it was everyone's constitutional right to marry who they wanted, regardless of gender. Of course people are angry and protesting the groups they felt had the biggest impact. Their picketing ALL churchs involved is also part of free speech and their rights.

Consider This | 2:20 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

Mormonism is all about authority and obedience. Small wonder it has an "image" problem. Perhaps if Mormons learned to focus more on Christ's teachings and less on those of Joseph Smith you would get somewhere.

Anonymous | 2:21 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

I've said it for months now. When the 2 most visible and prominent members of the denomination I grew up in are Glenn Beck & Mitt Romney then yeah there are serious image problems.

One tries to be an LDS version of the comedian Limbaugh & dumb down topics for the American Idol groupies that Lou Dobbs originated.

The other is a political shapeshifter who couldn't outdebate Huckabee or St Rudy of 9/11.

to Anonymous 4:05 AM | 2:23 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

It also says the same thing at the end of John. The Book of Revelations was written before John. Also the Bible is made up of BOOKS it is not just ONE BOOK but rather a series of them put together for the benefit of man. Therefore you can not add to Revelations or the Book of John. I believe also that you will find the same statement at the end of Deuteronomy.

Easterner | 2:28 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

for Re:Easterner@2:01 pm
Thank you for your kind and rational response. I love comparative religion studies. I find the "mystery doctrines" of the LDS Faith fascinating. I think the King Follett discourse is a work of profound importance when Joseph Smith was articulating the LDS view of God. Although I disagree, respectfully so, that it was a revelation from on High, I do think Smith's ability to articulate his view of the Heavens is priceless. I hope I never become so pompous as to think anyone's personal beliefs are to be ridiculed. I just like the idea of seeing the whole picture. Thank you for your reply. ( Is there anywhere recorded that there were some who walked away from your Faith after hearing this Discourse? After all , that would have been a hard one if I were an on the fence believer at the time.)

EricW | 2:33 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

I agree that the past LDS church leaders never claimed we would be "popular", but the point is that there are many negative perceptions that are unnecessary.

The aftermath of the Gay-marriage/prop 8 and staning up for what they believe is a necessary hit to the public image.

If people want to criticize us for paying our tithing and call us names for that, sobeit.

However, if we would get out of our homes a little more often, get out and be real neighbors (me included), I think the image will improve . . . at least until the next thing threatens our core values.

I am not worried about the loud minority calling us names and yelling "foul"; just the unnecessary negative view that can be changed by us acting like the Christians we are taught to be each Sunday.

to: Provo Girl | 2:45 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

The numbers of members of the LDS church is still in debate, as the number the LDS church claims is different than the number of people who identify as members. A 2001 Canadian Census showed that 101,805 considered themselves LDS, but the LDS church claimed 160,000 members.

According to the Pew Study, while the LDS church attracts a lot of "in-switchers" (converts) it has a lot of "out-switchers" (apostates).

Henri Gooren found that over half of new coverts leave within a year, and more leave after that (at least in South America). David Stewarts shows retention rates at about 8-18% according to mission presidents he interviewed.

You should really check your numbers.

Sociologist | 2:46 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

Hey Gary,
A real interesting study.

Call Me Peculiar | 2:47 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008

I always hate reading how the Church feels the "heat" or has a diminishing image. Who cares? I, as a member, fully understand that we're a peculiar people. To some, that means we're a curiosity. To others, that means we're an entity worthy of tearing down.

I find it fascinating how much stock people put in the media and "image," like it's somehow important. I fully expect membership in the Church to drop off in the U.S. over this gay issue. Anyone study the parable of the 10 virgins? I also expect we'll see an increase in membership over time, as other Christian churches cave to government censorship while the LDS Church stands its ground. Try reading the Proclamation to the World. That's a line the Church will not cross. They certainly weren't interested in social image when they put that out!

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