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LDS have big image problem
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To the arrogant poster | 3:02 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
Re: "To Altner 7:03" at 8:28 p.m."
"You are correct and all would be fine if mormons would accept that they like other religions beleive. The problem comes with the mormons claiming they know and they are the only ones who do know amd therefore eveyone must believe what they know is the one and only true religion,etc. And that is one of the main causes of the problem between mormons and other churchs."
Why don't you give it a rest already. The only reason that other Churches have problems with Mormons is because we don't believe like they do and the only reason you posted this is because we don't believe the same thing you don on this subject so stop being a hypocrite and take the beam out of your own eye.
"You are correct and all would be fine if mormons would accept that they like other religions beleive. The problem comes with the mormons claiming they know and they are the only ones who do know amd therefore eveyone must believe what they know is the one and only true religion,etc. And that is one of the main causes of the problem between mormons and other churchs."
Why don't you give it a rest already. The only reason that other Churches have problems with Mormons is because we don't believe like they do and the only reason you posted this is because we don't believe the same thing you don on this subject so stop being a hypocrite and take the beam out of your own eye.
re - re Trey 1:54pm poster | 3:06 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
were ancient egyptian plates actually found in NY, and do they still exist? or
is it another unprovable urban legend? or is it in fact only a metaphor - like
most religions are based on - you know - talking snakes, etc... (not sure why
so few understand that the bible was written to be a bunch of metaphorical
short, stories but that's neither here nor there...)
do the plates actually exist today? or have they conveniently disappeared? cuz I know people at the Metropolitan that can translate them...
do the plates actually exist today? or have they conveniently disappeared? cuz I know people at the Metropolitan that can translate them...
Comments continue below
re Bill 2:31pm | 3:16 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
I'm still trying to get the "living prophet" bit...
dfasB | 3:18 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
Re: Bill, why do some of you guys out there think it's so important that
the LORD comes down and tells you that it is ok to commit adultery and have
another wife. I hope you are not married because I would truly feel very sorry
for your wife. If she only knew how impatiently you sitting around waiting for
God to come down and say: BILL GO FIND ANOTHER WIFE! Who care what you wife
feels as long as she meeting your every demand. You should be so pleasured while
she goes about her womanly duties. You know what BILL, you need some help, man!
Trey | 3:39 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
To Re:trey
The claim that the papyri found is not the one translated fails to be convincing
Facsimiles published by J.Smith in both graphic and text descriptions show that the found papyri is the one used
Fac 1. is the embalming scene form the book of breathings - it is the same (with addition by smith of missing parts) as the found papyri
Fac 2. hypocephalus is a common item, J.Smith or an associate used parts of Fac1 to fill in a section that had been damaged, unsurprisingly the church does not show this edited version now but one that has the "restored" part missing
both have been found elsewhere, not unique to the J.Smith papyri
The original book of abraham translation manuscript has the Egyptian letters in the margin and there meaning in English. They correspond directly with the recovered papyri.
There is no doubt that these are the papyri bought by J.Smith, nor any real doubt this was used for boa.
read "By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus" for greater detail
The claim that the papyri found is not the one translated fails to be convincing
Facsimiles published by J.Smith in both graphic and text descriptions show that the found papyri is the one used
Fac 1. is the embalming scene form the book of breathings - it is the same (with addition by smith of missing parts) as the found papyri
Fac 2. hypocephalus is a common item, J.Smith or an associate used parts of Fac1 to fill in a section that had been damaged, unsurprisingly the church does not show this edited version now but one that has the "restored" part missing
both have been found elsewhere, not unique to the J.Smith papyri
The original book of abraham translation manuscript has the Egyptian letters in the margin and there meaning in English. They correspond directly with the recovered papyri.
There is no doubt that these are the papyri bought by J.Smith, nor any real doubt this was used for boa.
read "By His Own Hand Upon Papyrus" for greater detail
realitycheck | 3:44 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
well, the journal of science just proved that male and female sexes were split
out about 100 million years ago. I'm sure Sarah Palin is mortified, and it
certainly puts a little dent in the adam and eve theory.
anyone getting any closer to understanding the purpose of the bible (a guide to life, not a documentary), and that perhaps, just perhaps, dinosaurs DID exist?
it just might save you 10% of your paycheck....
anyone getting any closer to understanding the purpose of the bible (a guide to life, not a documentary), and that perhaps, just perhaps, dinosaurs DID exist?
it just might save you 10% of your paycheck....
realitycheck | 4:11 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
sorry - didn't mean to come off so condescending...
just trying to say that God is in your heart and your soul, and simply wants you to be a good person - and men (not God) are the ones making up all the stories, rules, etc.
anyway - to each his/her own. do your thing - just don't get too full of yourselves (just like I shouldn't have, too). God is in your heart and your soul. He doesn't need you to push Him on anyone...
my bad. have a nice day.
just trying to say that God is in your heart and your soul, and simply wants you to be a good person - and men (not God) are the ones making up all the stories, rules, etc.
anyway - to each his/her own. do your thing - just don't get too full of yourselves (just like I shouldn't have, too). God is in your heart and your soul. He doesn't need you to push Him on anyone...
my bad. have a nice day.
Why Mormon? | 4:18 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
People have a bad opinion of you people, solely because you people have a bad
opinion of us. That's how the world works.
Trey | 4:23 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
On the subject of the J.Smith Diary account of the first vision (logged a decade
after the claimed event) to say that it a minor difference between it and the
official account is disingenuous in the extreme.
differences
He already knows all churches are false
He is 15 not 14
There is no Evil Power mentioned
Only 1 personage mentioned that being Jesus Christ
Forgetting that he spoke to God the father, in person is a bit of a stretch to be just telling the story a bit differently
Note* there are 8 others versions of the account by him and close associates that differ from the official account also.
The differences include
his age
the evil presence
pillar of light
the reason the went to pray
the personage is spoke to (some have Jesus, Some Jesus and God the Father, some have a single Angel and some have multiple Angels)
differences
He already knows all churches are false
He is 15 not 14
There is no Evil Power mentioned
Only 1 personage mentioned that being Jesus Christ
Forgetting that he spoke to God the father, in person is a bit of a stretch to be just telling the story a bit differently
Note* there are 8 others versions of the account by him and close associates that differ from the official account also.
The differences include
his age
the evil presence
pillar of light
the reason the went to pray
the personage is spoke to (some have Jesus, Some Jesus and God the Father, some have a single Angel and some have multiple Angels)
HOPE | 4:34 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
Before i found www.utlm.com and listen to SHAWN MCCRANEY's shows, i really
really love LDS.Now although i know that they try to teach ppl to be better
persons,i also know that LDs beliefs is so different from the mainstream
Christian.Its so scary to watch the SECREAT TEMPEL RITUAL in UTUBE.Thats really
NOT Christian at all.I just hope one day LDS will leave the practices of
different beliefs from mainstream Christian,BUT still have all the programms
like missionary,visiting teacher to teach the gospel.They would attract millions
members easily if they do this.
Bev | 4:35 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
Hi Trey,
It looks like you have studied these things quite deeply. Thank you, for your insight on here. What you have said on here makes TOTAL sense to me.
It looks like you have studied these things quite deeply. Thank you, for your insight on here. What you have said on here makes TOTAL sense to me.
transplant | 4:49 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
Comment by Texas Mormon:
Mormons are polytheists (men get to be god of their own plant) thereby cannot be the lost tribe of Israel,Jews, nor Christians who believe in only one god.
Mormons are polytheists (men get to be god of their own plant) thereby cannot be the lost tribe of Israel,Jews, nor Christians who believe in only one god.
Conor Bohannon | 4:51 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
I�ve read over most of the comments on this article and
can understand and empathize with many of the opinions expressed on both sides.
I agree that there are a LOT of people who really have no idea what Latter Day
Saints believe, they often hold them in contempt and discriminate against them
solely based on popular myth, half truths, and often outright falsehood.
On the other hand, there are also many devoted Christians who disagree with LDS teaching based solely on the Scriptures(Bible) but who know, admire and even love many LDS members. Personally, I have a very high regard for the morals, values, and many traditions of the LDS Church. Most of my family are currently LDS so I know quite a few of your doctrinal distinctive�s. I have no doubt, whatsoever that many if not the majority of Mormons are very devout people, striving to the very best of their ability to live the gospel as they understand it.
to be continued...
On the other hand, there are also many devoted Christians who disagree with LDS teaching based solely on the Scriptures(Bible) but who know, admire and even love many LDS members. Personally, I have a very high regard for the morals, values, and many traditions of the LDS Church. Most of my family are currently LDS so I know quite a few of your doctrinal distinctive�s. I have no doubt, whatsoever that many if not the majority of Mormons are very devout people, striving to the very best of their ability to live the gospel as they understand it.
to be continued...
Re: Seriously 1240am | 4:53 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
I agree with your comments. I have lots of friends who are not mormons and I do
not push my religion on them. They know I am mormon and if they want to know
anything about it, they ask. If not, they don't and I leave it at that. I
don't judge them because they smoke or drink, or whatever, I just enjoy
their company because they are good people. I will never leave the church
because I know it is right even though sometimes, when we listen to the leaders
it seems almost impossible to do everything they ask. I truly believe that if my
heart is right and I am a good being, that will go along way when I meet God on
the other side. There is no way I could ever be perfect and I would never put
that burden on anyone else.
Melvin | 4:54 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
I heard that the Mormons took their temple rituals from the Masons. Is this
true? I heard it on Biography TV.
Rose | 4:55 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
The reasons i dont believe in LDS is they have LOTS secrets.Also all about
JOSEPH SMITH's story is like fake.Only most of the small children would
easily believe those story.I wonder why the members of LDS still believe in
JOsEPH S.A propeph of GOD would never practice poligamy,more so to promote
it.GoD hate adultery!Although They ban it now.They still have lots ,lots and
lots secrets.I am dissapointed because of that!
Trey | 4:55 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
To Bev. I thank you for your kind words. I am a new testament Christian, and
an American. As such I believe that all can be saved by following the New
Testament and that in the the USA every one has the right to believe as they
choose.
Conor Bohannon | 4:58 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
Continued...
Unfortunately, I'm convinced that many LDS doctrines don�t agree with the Bible,some of them are in fact contradicted by the Bible,on that basis I have to conclude they are therefore incorrect.
This doesn�t mean I hate you, nor do I want to attack your church. When LDS missionaries come to my door I understand that they want to share their beliefs with me in order to lead me to what they believe is the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. When I discuss my testimony with church members or debate doctrine with them it is because I also sincerely want to share my faith, and my understanding of Jesus Christ with them in the hope that they will come to know the gospel of Jesus Christ as I know it.
I truly believe that there are thousands if not millions of other Christians who feel the same way I do; we may disagree with LDS teaching but we try our best as fallen men to love you as just God loves you because each of you are made in His image and Christ died for each of you just as He did for me.
Unfortunately, I'm convinced that many LDS doctrines don�t agree with the Bible,some of them are in fact contradicted by the Bible,on that basis I have to conclude they are therefore incorrect.
This doesn�t mean I hate you, nor do I want to attack your church. When LDS missionaries come to my door I understand that they want to share their beliefs with me in order to lead me to what they believe is the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. When I discuss my testimony with church members or debate doctrine with them it is because I also sincerely want to share my faith, and my understanding of Jesus Christ with them in the hope that they will come to know the gospel of Jesus Christ as I know it.
I truly believe that there are thousands if not millions of other Christians who feel the same way I do; we may disagree with LDS teaching but we try our best as fallen men to love you as just God loves you because each of you are made in His image and Christ died for each of you just as He did for me.
missionaries? | 5:02 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
a missionary in any other religion (or non-religion) goes to poor places and
helps feed and house the poor and destitute WITHOUT NECESSARILY TRYING TO
CONVERT THEM!!
Mormons send people to my LA neighborhood simply in the hopes of getting converts (and the associated 10%), and they call that missionary work!!
that's not missionary work - that's being a door-to-door salesman...
Mormons send people to my LA neighborhood simply in the hopes of getting converts (and the associated 10%), and they call that missionary work!!
that's not missionary work - that's being a door-to-door salesman...
Deedra | 5:35 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
I'm so disappointed in Mormon doctrine. I have read and reread it over and
over time after time, and I cannot be convinced that God would make slaves of
women so that men can have eternal pleasure, while woman mourn over their
adulterous husbands. WHAT KIND OF THINKING IS THIS?? It's not a loving Gods
idea--NOT IN ANYWAY SHAPE OR FORM! It is though the sick thinking of a small
group of NutSO men!
RE: Deedra | 6:19 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
Deedra, as an active LDS lifelong member of some 40-odd years, may I kindly
assure you that NOT what I believe, or any other SANE member of my church. Our
church leaders have repeatedly said how much God values women as equal partners
with men, and have denounced beliefs such as the ones you cite as false.
Sorry, Deedra--it's not my intent to be condescending or "call you out." Actually, you're correct, in a strange sort of way--if we really DID believe that, you OUGHT to denounce us as wackos. I'd be right behind you, and I'm a guy!
You say you've repeatedly read Mormon doctrine. May I suggest you need better sources? It's my guess you haven't read what Mormons have actually written--you've read what OTHER people say we believe. What's the difference? NIGHT AND DAY, in more cases than you think!
Case in point--part of the LDS image problem is ongoing and has been since The First Vision. We have a great deal of urban legends and folklore out there about what we really believe--and people hear them and think they know.
So again, Deedra: Please check those sources, OK? Thanks!
Sorry, Deedra--it's not my intent to be condescending or "call you out." Actually, you're correct, in a strange sort of way--if we really DID believe that, you OUGHT to denounce us as wackos. I'd be right behind you, and I'm a guy!
You say you've repeatedly read Mormon doctrine. May I suggest you need better sources? It's my guess you haven't read what Mormons have actually written--you've read what OTHER people say we believe. What's the difference? NIGHT AND DAY, in more cases than you think!
Case in point--part of the LDS image problem is ongoing and has been since The First Vision. We have a great deal of urban legends and folklore out there about what we really believe--and people hear them and think they know.
So again, Deedra: Please check those sources, OK? Thanks!
Mormon Quota | 9:06 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
Mormon's are always trying to convert you. If they tried to just do
something nice without having an agenda, their image would not be so bad. Try
putting down the blue book for a while and reding the Bible, that could help the
image also
Greg Outside of Utah | 10:25 p.m. Nov. 26, 2008
Wow, this simple news piece really struck a nerve! I'd like to add my 2
cents. I too believe, as the poll stated, that there is a perception problem
regarding our faith. Until we are perfect, I think there is room for
improvement. So, what can be done?
One idea to throw out: The human race has never been more connected and the world seems to be getting smaller and temples are dotting the world. So why can't we as a people spread out a little more geographically in this good old world of ours and get to know our neighbors even better? The perception problem may not disappear but I am sure it would improve.
One idea to throw out: The human race has never been more connected and the world seems to be getting smaller and temples are dotting the world. So why can't we as a people spread out a little more geographically in this good old world of ours and get to know our neighbors even better? The perception problem may not disappear but I am sure it would improve.
Cinthia | 12:09 a.m. Nov. 27, 2008
In my opinion Lds has tried hard to improve everything.I do hope one day
they'll make clear about what they practices and believe to the public.Only
then people wont have suspicion mind toward them.By the way, i love Lds
people.There is something interesting about them.I hope there'll be lots
people as kind as LDS.This world really hungry for such people.
Rose | 4:55 p.m. | 12:10 a.m. Nov. 27, 2008
I believe your comment about the Joseph Smith story --- you could make the same
argument about ANY religion...
Catholics have tons of stories about visions --- Lady of Fatima, Guadalupe, Joan of Arc, etc. etc.
So do Buddhists and the Eastern religions
Martin Luther, himself, claimed to have had an life-altering experience, and that's at the core of Protestants.
The Jewish faith also has tons of stories about religious experiences.
So I don't think you can make the argument that the LDS Church is alone in its claim about the LDS Church.
It's a question of faith ---
and this coming from a gay man here.
I say, let Mormons practice their religion, that's all fine and dandy --- respect theirs.
It's all about respect.
Catholics have tons of stories about visions --- Lady of Fatima, Guadalupe, Joan of Arc, etc. etc.
So do Buddhists and the Eastern religions
Martin Luther, himself, claimed to have had an life-altering experience, and that's at the core of Protestants.
The Jewish faith also has tons of stories about religious experiences.
So I don't think you can make the argument that the LDS Church is alone in its claim about the LDS Church.
It's a question of faith ---
and this coming from a gay man here.
I say, let Mormons practice their religion, that's all fine and dandy --- respect theirs.
It's all about respect.
To LDS v Gays | 9:47 a.m. | 12:14 a.m. Nov. 27, 2008
I couldn't agree more.
Well said.
Moreover, as holding on to both the LDS in me and the gay in me.
Well said.
Moreover, as holding on to both the LDS in me and the gay in me.
Re: It's Satan Of Course | 12:23 a.m. Nov. 27, 2008
Thank you.
I couldn't have said it better.
I think a lot of the times a lot of LDS members who are also gay --- tend to stop coming to church because of comments like that "It's Satan"
Instead of helping out, of making a connection, of reaching out --- immediately the judgmental finger goes out.
I've seen it in families.
Enough said.
And please, to those of you who would discredit that, don't deny, many a Church member has been turned away because his/her feelings of inadequacy were termed "it must be Satan" ---
Even if it were true --- isn't it better for the stalwart saints to reach out instead of being the Puritans that Hawthorne spoke about in The Scarlet Letter?
I couldn't have said it better.
I think a lot of the times a lot of LDS members who are also gay --- tend to stop coming to church because of comments like that "It's Satan"
Instead of helping out, of making a connection, of reaching out --- immediately the judgmental finger goes out.
I've seen it in families.
Enough said.
And please, to those of you who would discredit that, don't deny, many a Church member has been turned away because his/her feelings of inadequacy were termed "it must be Satan" ---
Even if it were true --- isn't it better for the stalwart saints to reach out instead of being the Puritans that Hawthorne spoke about in The Scarlet Letter?
awesomeron | 1:19 a.m. Nov. 27, 2008
I was found by to Tracking Missionaries. So I will always differ with the people
that put Tracking Down.
In Hawaii, In my Stake (I am not sure about the others) the Missionaries do Not Track door to door anymore. Our area does not have a Transient Population as many areas of Hawaii. A lot of Residents in my area are very poor, many on the very edge of Homelessness, families living in a Room or Two of a Relatives House. Some of the Homes are what we call Tear Downs, they meet No Building Codes and you could not sell them if you wanted to. However the land is very Valuable.
We do Not Have Trailers in Hawaii, No Trailer Parks. Almost No Campers, and Fewer Class A Motor Homes. I think because there is no place to Park or Put them. Or you would have whole families living in Driveways.
We also have Gated Communities and Gated Houses, along with Apartment Building Security. Almost No Affordable Housing is being built.
Religion is a Huge Business and will always be. Just accept that and be proud that Mormons have done and are doing so well.
Missionaries Do Gods Work.
In Hawaii, In my Stake (I am not sure about the others) the Missionaries do Not Track door to door anymore. Our area does not have a Transient Population as many areas of Hawaii. A lot of Residents in my area are very poor, many on the very edge of Homelessness, families living in a Room or Two of a Relatives House. Some of the Homes are what we call Tear Downs, they meet No Building Codes and you could not sell them if you wanted to. However the land is very Valuable.
We do Not Have Trailers in Hawaii, No Trailer Parks. Almost No Campers, and Fewer Class A Motor Homes. I think because there is no place to Park or Put them. Or you would have whole families living in Driveways.
We also have Gated Communities and Gated Houses, along with Apartment Building Security. Almost No Affordable Housing is being built.
Religion is a Huge Business and will always be. Just accept that and be proud that Mormons have done and are doing so well.
Missionaries Do Gods Work.
MoJules | 8:18 a.m. Nov. 27, 2008
Gays have the image problem not us. You people need to get a life. The gays and
the antis have the issues and problems not us. Just read all these ignorant
comments by antis. You people are a piece of work.
Trey | 8:59 a.m. Nov. 27, 2008
To: MoJules
The use of the term anti (short of anti-mormon) is used often in a manner of make the target of the word have no value, it is used to stifle conversation.
As a New Testament Christian, would it be vaild for me to say of you that you are anti-Christ ? Even if a person thought that to be the case would it be a useful thing to say ?
I am not anti-mormon I am a Christian as such I try to contend for the faith as the book of Jude tells all Christians to do.
I wish all that read this a Happy Thanksgiving, we all have more to be thankful for then we can ever truly know.
The use of the term anti (short of anti-mormon) is used often in a manner of make the target of the word have no value, it is used to stifle conversation.
As a New Testament Christian, would it be vaild for me to say of you that you are anti-Christ ? Even if a person thought that to be the case would it be a useful thing to say ?
I am not anti-mormon I am a Christian as such I try to contend for the faith as the book of Jude tells all Christians to do.
I wish all that read this a Happy Thanksgiving, we all have more to be thankful for then we can ever truly know.
Angels & Saints | 9:31 a.m. Nov. 27, 2008
People who have visions are people with a brain defect called schizophrenia, and
It doesn't make them bad. Sometimes people are born this way, and it
doesn't mean that they are possessed by any devil by any means.
Why not look at it this way-- it's nice to be able to see things that aren't truly there, nice things that are in a persons mind and who wishes them there, but are ONLY in their mind...kind of cool-huh? NO drugs involved.
Why not look at it this way-- it's nice to be able to see things that aren't truly there, nice things that are in a persons mind and who wishes them there, but are ONLY in their mind...kind of cool-huh? NO drugs involved.
Re: Trey | 9:46 a.m. Nov. 27, 2008
"Ok, lets pretend that people that had used coins before decided to for go
there use, and switch to a barter economy (not real likely)"
...they hadn't used coins before, coins weren't invented until the late 7th century BC, and weren't commonly used around the world for quite some time afterward. In fact, coins weren't used in Jerusalem until about 200 BC. Since the BOM peoples left Jerusalem about 600 BC, they almost certainly had never used coins, but other systems of weighted metals, such as was actually very common in Mesoamerica and other ancient civilizations all around the world.
They have found mammoth remains in Mesoamerica dating as late as about 100 BC - and horse and also mastadon remains were found at the same site. The time period discussing elephants in the BOM was around 2500 BC, a time period that many fossil sites all over the Americas prove mammoths existed in. Horses have also been found in Mayapan, which predates Spanish exploration by several centuries. And also, the Huns used horses for food, clothing and war, and were pretty essential to the society, yet there is today no evidence at all that they existed. Not one skeleton.
...they hadn't used coins before, coins weren't invented until the late 7th century BC, and weren't commonly used around the world for quite some time afterward. In fact, coins weren't used in Jerusalem until about 200 BC. Since the BOM peoples left Jerusalem about 600 BC, they almost certainly had never used coins, but other systems of weighted metals, such as was actually very common in Mesoamerica and other ancient civilizations all around the world.
They have found mammoth remains in Mesoamerica dating as late as about 100 BC - and horse and also mastadon remains were found at the same site. The time period discussing elephants in the BOM was around 2500 BC, a time period that many fossil sites all over the Americas prove mammoths existed in. Horses have also been found in Mayapan, which predates Spanish exploration by several centuries. And also, the Huns used horses for food, clothing and war, and were pretty essential to the society, yet there is today no evidence at all that they existed. Not one skeleton.
Re: Trey | 10:02 a.m. Nov. 27, 2008
Scientists have also proven that Indians used silk spun and woven from cocoons
of wild silkworms, and from the ceiba tree, in the Americas before Spanish
colonization. It's not exactly the same as Asian silk, but it's pretty
close.
At various archaeological sites in Mesoamerica, they've discovered toy chariots. If children had toys depicting them, they almost certainly existed.
The very idea of metallic plates used to be laughed at - in fact, it was the most common argument against Joseph Smith at the time the BOM came forth - but since about the 1930s or 1940s, they've found multiple examples all over the world. There may not be any other Jaredite or Nephite plates found, but who knows what they may find someday?
The changing of Egyptian hieroglyphics to hieratic script, and then to demotic script, are examples of reformed Egyptian. Modified Egyptian scripts were in frequent use when Lehi left Jerusalem. The Nephites chose to call their shorthand reformed Egyptian. Other cultures call it by other names. Kind of like how Britons call cookies "biscuits," even though we speak the same language.
At various archaeological sites in Mesoamerica, they've discovered toy chariots. If children had toys depicting them, they almost certainly existed.
The very idea of metallic plates used to be laughed at - in fact, it was the most common argument against Joseph Smith at the time the BOM came forth - but since about the 1930s or 1940s, they've found multiple examples all over the world. There may not be any other Jaredite or Nephite plates found, but who knows what they may find someday?
The changing of Egyptian hieroglyphics to hieratic script, and then to demotic script, are examples of reformed Egyptian. Modified Egyptian scripts were in frequent use when Lehi left Jerusalem. The Nephites chose to call their shorthand reformed Egyptian. Other cultures call it by other names. Kind of like how Britons call cookies "biscuits," even though we speak the same language.
Re: Trey | 3:39 p.m. | 10:21 a.m. Nov. 27, 2008
Nobody is denying that the papyrus pieces the LDS church has in its possession
right now were ones Joseph Smith had in his possession in the 1800s, we're
saying that we don't currently have ALL of them.
There are at least five different sources that describe the long scroll mentioned, the red and black one, or the other scrolls. They were said to be in stacks on the floor of the house, piled all around Joseph as he worked, sheets spread out that covered the table in great heaps, and when unrolled, the red and black scroll would go through several rooms in length. Today, we have a few fragments and scraps left, that were given back to our church leadership by a museum, decades after they were lost to us. The vast majority of what several eye witnesses said was there is long gone.
Since we don't have it, we can't say what was on those scrolls and papyrus sheets, if it was the Book of Breathing or something else entirely. And who knows whether the original meaning of the Book of Breathing is the same now as when it was written? That was thousands of years ago.
There are at least five different sources that describe the long scroll mentioned, the red and black one, or the other scrolls. They were said to be in stacks on the floor of the house, piled all around Joseph as he worked, sheets spread out that covered the table in great heaps, and when unrolled, the red and black scroll would go through several rooms in length. Today, we have a few fragments and scraps left, that were given back to our church leadership by a museum, decades after they were lost to us. The vast majority of what several eye witnesses said was there is long gone.
Since we don't have it, we can't say what was on those scrolls and papyrus sheets, if it was the Book of Breathing or something else entirely. And who knows whether the original meaning of the Book of Breathing is the same now as when it was written? That was thousands of years ago.
look at it this way | 11:11 a.m. Nov. 27, 2008
Angels & Saints |
�it's nice to be able to see things that aren't truly there, nice things that are in a persons mind and who wishes them there, but are ONLY in their mind.�
Imagine living 2000 years ago and a man approached you and said he had a vision of the future. You excitedly ask him to tell you about it and he agreed. He relates his vision and describes it thus: One day a man will be able to fly faster than any bird and he will have light in his home without any fire. What would you think of that man? Most likely, you would laugh at him or would tell him that his vision came from the devil.
The reason for your disbelief is because the science and learning at the time could not even comprehend such visions yet the visions were true. Now in our time a man has claimed to have seen and talked with God and Christ and he even described what they were like. The religious of the world declare his vision was from the devil and the more scientific oriented dismiss it as a disease of his mind.
�it's nice to be able to see things that aren't truly there, nice things that are in a persons mind and who wishes them there, but are ONLY in their mind.�
Imagine living 2000 years ago and a man approached you and said he had a vision of the future. You excitedly ask him to tell you about it and he agreed. He relates his vision and describes it thus: One day a man will be able to fly faster than any bird and he will have light in his home without any fire. What would you think of that man? Most likely, you would laugh at him or would tell him that his vision came from the devil.
The reason for your disbelief is because the science and learning at the time could not even comprehend such visions yet the visions were true. Now in our time a man has claimed to have seen and talked with God and Christ and he even described what they were like. The religious of the world declare his vision was from the devil and the more scientific oriented dismiss it as a disease of his mind.
Florida Ex-Mo | 1:55 p.m. Nov. 27, 2008
There are more problems than image. This is just the tip of the iceberg.
peterandrew | 5:30 p.m. Nov. 27, 2008
I don't think the Mormon church has an image problem. I think it has a
TRUTH problem. The technical term for it is "self-deception."
Theo | 6:49 p.m. Nov. 27, 2008
Helen Whitney after making her PBS production on Mormons said the problem with
Mormonism is the more you know about Mormonism, the more disturbing it becomes
and image goes down even further. Public Ed helps little.
BoLd FaCe LiArS | 7:27 p.m. Nov. 27, 2008
I am a member of the LDS church and I have problem with ACTIVE members who are
BOLD FACE LYING HYPOCRITES! I'm tired of this stuff and have just about had
it. I may leave SOON for good!
Cali Mormon Mom | 1:15 p.m. Nov. 28, 2008
I am a Mormon living in California. I visited Utah this past summer to see the
Osmond Concert. My handsome 15 year old son accompanied me. He was very
well-groomed - slacks, shirt, tie, etc. He also has golden blonde surfer hair
that is below his collar in the back and layered in a side-swept cut. The
wrinkled-nosed looks he got from many Utah local Mormons was shameful. A few
older men in charge of handling the long lines were outright rude to him.
I know this about our members. Our self-righteous, holier-than-thou attitudes need to be changed. To judge my tall, handsome, clean, well-groomed son by the length of his hair because he differs from the usual look for boys in Salt Lake City is an abomination. Members need to overcome close-mindedness, the tendency to judge others wrongly, and the compulsion to point fingers and gossip.
I might add, after the concert, we strolled through the grounds and around the fountains. He didn't notice the more than a dozen teenage Mormon girls snapping his photo wherever he went.
I know this about our members. Our self-righteous, holier-than-thou attitudes need to be changed. To judge my tall, handsome, clean, well-groomed son by the length of his hair because he differs from the usual look for boys in Salt Lake City is an abomination. Members need to overcome close-mindedness, the tendency to judge others wrongly, and the compulsion to point fingers and gossip.
I might add, after the concert, we strolled through the grounds and around the fountains. He didn't notice the more than a dozen teenage Mormon girls snapping his photo wherever he went.
Trey | 10:47 p.m. Nov. 28, 2008
To Re:trey
Coins. Firstly by the admission of the Title the Prophet is stating that they were used, I am just taking the book at face value.
Ok if weighted metals were very common, do you have any of those to display ? in the ratios as portrayed in the bom
Mammoths at 100bc Please, state source of that.
the data I am finding puts the general extinction at 12,000BC with a small number on Paul Island, Alaska, up until 6000 BC and a dwawf variant on
Wrangel Island, located in the Arctic Ocean,until 1700 BC. And neither island is in meso-America
Please name the site at which the mastodon and horse remains were found, it would interest me greatly
Coins. Firstly by the admission of the Title the Prophet is stating that they were used, I am just taking the book at face value.
Ok if weighted metals were very common, do you have any of those to display ? in the ratios as portrayed in the bom
Mammoths at 100bc Please, state source of that.
the data I am finding puts the general extinction at 12,000BC with a small number on Paul Island, Alaska, up until 6000 BC and a dwawf variant on
Wrangel Island, located in the Arctic Ocean,until 1700 BC. And neither island is in meso-America
Please name the site at which the mastodon and horse remains were found, it would interest me greatly
Trey | 10:05 a.m. Nov. 29, 2008
to Re:Trey
Your argument(paraphrasing S�ndor B�k�nyi via FARMS/Maxwell inst. ) for equivalencing of no skeletal remains of the horse by the Huns and he abject lack of any horse related material from pre Columbian America is with out merit, in that we have good evidence from history both written and artifacts of the tactics and methods used by Hun horse archers.
Your argument is also factually incorrect. Read The Hun by Nic Fields page 49 or Attila, King of the Huns by Patrick Howarth page 20
Additionally in 1990 a Hun princes grave was found, it contained 5 horse skulls and painting of a wheeled carriage pulled by a team of horses and escorted by mounted riders.
google Hun Princess Graveyard�s Secret
Another sorce for belife in a pre-columbian horse is the Spencer Lake Mound horse skull. It is a confessed and proved prank.
Your argument(paraphrasing S�ndor B�k�nyi via FARMS/Maxwell inst. ) for equivalencing of no skeletal remains of the horse by the Huns and he abject lack of any horse related material from pre Columbian America is with out merit, in that we have good evidence from history both written and artifacts of the tactics and methods used by Hun horse archers.
Your argument is also factually incorrect. Read The Hun by Nic Fields page 49 or Attila, King of the Huns by Patrick Howarth page 20
Additionally in 1990 a Hun princes grave was found, it contained 5 horse skulls and painting of a wheeled carriage pulled by a team of horses and escorted by mounted riders.
google Hun Princess Graveyard�s Secret
Another sorce for belife in a pre-columbian horse is the Spencer Lake Mound horse skull. It is a confessed and proved prank.
Trey | 10:42 a.m. Nov. 29, 2008
Re:Trey
Reformed Egyptian.
We have to take the word of M.Harris that the document given to him by J.Smith is an accurate depiction of "reformed Egyptian" but we can know with a good deal of certainty what Egyptologist Prof C.Anthon whom Harris had shown the writing to thought.
"I received this morning your favor of the 9th instant, and lose no time in making a reply. The whole story about my having pronounced the Mormonite inscription to be "reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics" is perfectly false."
"It consisted of all kinds of crooked characters disposed in columns, and had evidently been prepared by some person who had before him at the time a book containing various alphabets. Greek and Hebrew letters, crosses and flourishes, Roman letters inverted or placed sideways"
New York, Feb. 17, 1834
The then RLDS has an example of the characters of "reformed Egyptian" it is easily found in the web and is not similar to any of the forms of egyptian.
Reformed Egyptian.
We have to take the word of M.Harris that the document given to him by J.Smith is an accurate depiction of "reformed Egyptian" but we can know with a good deal of certainty what Egyptologist Prof C.Anthon whom Harris had shown the writing to thought.
"I received this morning your favor of the 9th instant, and lose no time in making a reply. The whole story about my having pronounced the Mormonite inscription to be "reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics" is perfectly false."
"It consisted of all kinds of crooked characters disposed in columns, and had evidently been prepared by some person who had before him at the time a book containing various alphabets. Greek and Hebrew letters, crosses and flourishes, Roman letters inverted or placed sideways"
New York, Feb. 17, 1834
The then RLDS has an example of the characters of "reformed Egyptian" it is easily found in the web and is not similar to any of the forms of egyptian.
Trey | 10:55 a.m. Nov. 29, 2008
Re:Trey
Scrolls
Firstly the translation text is in the exact same order as the papyri found, to believe this is a coincidence is an affront to reason.
Second, assuming the red and black scroll did exist it would mean that a scroll from the 1st century was laying side by side with one written by Abram around 2100 BC a staggering leap of logic.
Lastly J.Smiths "alphabet and grammar" relate exactly to the found papyri (book of breathings) if it is correct then the "red and black" would either have to have the same text or have characters mean something completely different.
Scrolls
Firstly the translation text is in the exact same order as the papyri found, to believe this is a coincidence is an affront to reason.
Second, assuming the red and black scroll did exist it would mean that a scroll from the 1st century was laying side by side with one written by Abram around 2100 BC a staggering leap of logic.
Lastly J.Smiths "alphabet and grammar" relate exactly to the found papyri (book of breathings) if it is correct then the "red and black" would either have to have the same text or have characters mean something completely different.
peterandrew | 6:49 p.m. Nov. 30, 2008
Cali Mormon Mom,
and the Mormon boys.
and the Mormon boys.
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Totally agree. How can members think "I know" does not come across as condescending to others? Inherent with the "I know" is "therefore, you don't know". Why do members think they are the only ones that have valid spiritual experiences. THAT is annoying. And I am also a member.