Deseret News | MormonTimes.com: LDS Church issues new Prop. 8 overview

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MormonTimes.com: LDS Church issues new Prop. 8 overview

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Joe Moe | 12:44 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

I'm starting to wonder how long the same people are going to keep saying the same things on this topic.

Marry? | 12:49 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

I say let them marry. Once married they are now a part of the MAJORITY and can no longer lay ANY claim to "minority" status
(Tongue in cheek)

Walk the Walk | 12:59 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

The only thing that saddens me more than the protests themselves--a horrible self-contradiction from haters calling themselves tolerant--are the number of spiteful comments here from the other side.

NOTHING will ever be resolved IF people on both sides show how angry and hate-filled they can be. The hate-filled anarchists are enough of a problem as it is--we don't need any more "reviling against those who revile" going on.

Cooler heads will prevail on this issue--IF THERE ARE ANY LEFT.

Those who truly revere marriage as a union of harmony, compassion, other-interest, love, and as the ideal place to teach children positive social values--let's walk the walk, not just talk the talk.

Literally the worst thing those who support traditional marriage can do is to imitate the screaming anarchists by returning measure for measure. Turn the other cheek by saying what we must say with clarity and compassion. Show that we deserve to KEEP traditional marriage and be POSITIVE examples to our children.

Comments continue below

Robert Oh | 1:00 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Mormons directed and orchestrated the opening of this box in California. You ask for civility and respect from all. You could do a lot to further that respect by agreeing to meet with leaders of the GLBT community. You have refused in the past.

This is not going away simply by you saying "we weren't the only ones".

Step up and start acting like you live in a diverse world and one that has many different opinions. You don't need to change your moral stand, just learn how to live in a world where you aren't the only ones who live in it.

First Amendment | 1:08 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

I agree with the First Amendment Center--when the marriage debate turns ugly, no one wins. Unfortunately, the debate was ugly before it began. Gays and lesbians in California enjoyed the right to civil marriage and then Proposition 8 took that right away. It's always going to be ugly when civil rights are taken away. While extreme reactions to the Church's involvement, such as property damage, are deplorable--the Church is rightfully a target for protest. The Church reminds me of a little kid playing tag who runs over, punches someone in the face, says "you're it," and then runs back to "base" yelling that nobody can touch it.

Children's Advocate | 1:10 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

The GLTB community has had a lot of success hijacking the terms "civil rights" and "equality" to promote their cause. All fair minded people want to promote equality, so this has been a brilliant strategy.
However, it is in the best interest of society to regulate marriage. For example, siblings should never be allowed to marry, regardless of how they might love each other. It is not their civil right. Four judges in CA were wrong when they said marriage was a civil right. I didn't vote for Prop 8 because I hate gays. I voted for it to tell the four judges they were wrong.
The fact is, a same sex relationship can't produce children without involving a third party of the opposite sex.
Traditional marriage has always been about creating the best environment for producing the next generation of human beings. Special rights have been afforded to accomplish that goal. Since same sex people can't reproduce, how can you call their relationship marriage?
If you want to increase civil rights, don't change the definition of marriage - strengthen civil unions. I would vote for that.

Conn. Observer | 1:15 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Response to EM and others that think same sex marriage is a civil rights issue. It's a behavioral issue plain and simple. Homosexuals ARE not a race or even an ethnic group. As far as being a right - there are many many people who would like to get married in a normal manner and are NOT guaranteed that they ever will. Who's fighting for their marriage "right". Logic and common sense have been compromised just like moral values. What is this world coming to - turbulent times folks - the dark side just keeps moving in - time to take a stand for all that is right and good.

Could care less | 1:26 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

As a lapsed Presbyterian, I don't care who lives with whom. Discrimination against those who do have religious doctrines (Many churchs, not just the LDS, but LDS are the easiest target because they are the best organized.) about the origin and purpose of marriage is the greatest injustice. Think pogrums, witch hunts and mob mentality.

kenny | 1:27 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

to Utah Grandma, you are wrong. You think people like you are only people.

OneBob | 1:36 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

@SandyMom.

I am gay and in a committed relationship and I have never been so ashamed of my fellow homosexuals, trying to force their interpretation of marriage on everyone else.

JanSan | 1:39 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

re: Sandy Mom
I am sorry that you feel so disappointed.
I on the other side - am very proud of my LDS Church!
unlike many churches that seemed to sit on the sidelines - my church spoke up with a loud enough voice that it was heard! I know there were other churches who also spoke up and I thank them also.
If you want to belong to a church that is well liked and excepted by the world - who changes their doctrines to fit the wim of man - then there are plenty of those churches around - maybe you are in the wrong place. During the time of Christ,was he and His apostles accepted? Think of how they died! Think of the religious persecution that drove so many to the "NEW LAND".. think of the Jews and the LDS pioneers. Then think of the prophecies before the second coming. I am sorry for you - in more ways then one. This is a weeding out period and where does this put you?

re: Hypocrite | 1:51 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

By your comment - it would appear that you are well at practicing what you complain about in others.
Please understand that the law cannot go in an arrest all those practicing polygamy because they are no more breaking the law then people like Brad Pitt and Angleina Jolie and Oprah and many other stars and everyday people are. In 9 out of 10 polygamous marriage there is only one marriage (the first one)that is a legal marriage, and therefore legally binding. The other marriages are Spiritual marriages and are not legally recognized. Can you imagine what the world would be like if they started arresting all the people who are living together.. If it's good for one then it has to be good for all... Think about it.

RE; New York Times comments | 1:57 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

I truly hope you are not even suggesting that the Deseret News is either accurate or unbiased.

huh???? | 2:08 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Re: Kenny - your comment made no sense at all! It was like a half of a sentence... what is the rest of it? Personally I REALLY liked 'Utah Grandma" comment a lot and even learned from it... which is more then I can say for yours!

Mother of a gay | 2:26 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

I am a mother of a daughter who is gay (her choice) I love my daughter more then anything. BUT I stand behide my Lord and his teachings, meaning I will back his teachings till my dying day. I will NOT go against the Lord and his teachings NO MATTER WHAT. AND YES I AM LDS AND PROUD OF IT!!!!!! I will NOT slap my LORD IN YHE FACE. IF you read your scriptures (and I'm sure you have'nt) From the start to the finish you read where the Lord is AGAINST men marring men and woman marrying woman. His LAW IS A MAN AND WOMAN MARRYING. SO MUCH FOR VOTING what good does it do. We have cry babies that don't like the out come so they are going to go and throw a fit. I'v seen two years old act better.And NOT ONLY DID THE MORMONS VOTE NO BUT SO DID ALOT OF NON MORMONS!!!
The Lord has said that this is a sin so it stands.
Read your scriptures you will learn something!!!!!

JUDGEMENT for ALL | 2:29 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Re JanSAn
I'm happy to know that you are so wonderful and so proud. I only hope it all gets you to heaven.

K.S. | 2:31 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

My comment is let them get married and be be miserable like the rest of us

Wonderful tool... | 2:34 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

My non member friends who made it clear to me a long time ago that they didn't want to be taught the gospel, are now asking me all kinds of questions about the church doctrines. I'm referring them to the Missionaries and are very receptive to the teachings...

Robert Oh | 2:38 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

To Mother of Gay:
"I will not slap my lord in the face"

But, you have no problem with slapping your daughter in the face? I can't imagine the tugging feelings going on inside of her... well, yes I can. Too bad.

JanSan | 2:43 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

re: Judgment for all

Thank you for your concern.

The Lord said.. If you love me keep my commandments - He also said "Come follow me" I know that Thomas Monson is a Prophet of God therefore the mouthpiece of God. Therefore if I follow His counsel and the Lords then I feel that I have a pretty good chance of making it - so please don't loose sleep over whether of not I make it to Heaven - I am following my Savior that is the best I can do - I know I am right with him - even if I am not right with you.

Birds of a Feather | 2:50 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

To: Wonderful Tool

Isn't it just amazing how narrow-minded people seem to attract each other?

re: Robert Oh | 2:52 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

What an absolutely horrible thing to say! This woman said that she LOVED her daughter very much! There are things that my children do that I do not agree with all the time - that does not mean I love then less. It means that I am a separate individual who has the right to make my own mind up and stand by it. What a sad place this earth would be if parents HAD TO agree with everything their children did. That is not love.

A NON MORMON | 2:59 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

ROBERT O THE MOTHER OF THE GAY DAUGHTER IS NOT SLAPPING HER IN THE FACE. hER DAUGHTER HAS MADE HER CHOICE. AND THE MOTHER MADE HERS BY STANDING BY THE LORDS TEACHINGS. DON'T YOU THINK IT WAS HARD FOR THIS MOTHER TO LEARN THAT HER DAUGHTER WAS GAY??
REREAD THE LETTER AGAIN ROBERT O. OR IS IT YOU ARE UPSET THAT THIS MOTHER DID NOT BACK HER DAUGHTER UP.
IS THAT IT. I VOTED NO TO PROP. 8. I'M VERY PROUD OF THIS MOTHER FOR BACKING HER FAITH.

Wonderful Tool? | 3:00 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

I see now that the singer Prince (formerly known as "Formerly Known as Prince") has taken a stance against gay marriage. Perhaps you will send the missionaries to visit him as well?

Say again | 3:03 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

The "opening of the box", as it has been called, was orchestrated by judges of California Supreme Court, deciding that the will of the people (in prop 22) wasn't constitutional (even though it was). THEY were the ones who started this, by throwing out the will of the people of California.

People have the right to speak out on moral issues, especially those concerning their families. A church has a right to direct its members. They weren't telling people WHO to vote for, but WHAT to vote for. THere is a big difference. As much as has been inferred that religious rights and free speech won't be harmed by SSM, VERY recent history points otherwise. There are no two sides to the fence on the same side on this issue. People can read, they can vote, and they can decide for themselves.

This issue hasn't hurt the LDS Church at all; it has, in fact, solidified its beliefs in the minds of everyone. The Church will always be CONSISTENT. It has to be, for at its Head is Christ.

To Robert Oh | 3:17 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

I identify with "Mother of a Gay" very much--my cousin is gay and he never stopped being my cousin. I love and support him--AND I voted YES to support the traditional family as well. My aunt and uncle, like "Mother," still love him and never threw him out. They don't approve of his lifestyle, but they still accept him as their son.

The bottom line for me is: I want the traditional family to be available to preserve society. None of us--many GLBT included, I'm sure--want to live in a society predominated by the people who have lately been showing the world how much "love" and "tolerance" they REALLY have.

So, Robert Oh, please don't oversimplify what's going on. You evidently want us pro-Prop. 8 people to stop snap judgments, see you as human beings and appreciate the nuances of your position. The point is: You've got to be willing to return the favor, man.

NOT EVERYBODY WHO SUPPORTS PROP. 8 HATES GAYS. That's the honest truth! There's a lot more to the issue than that. Accept and believe it--it's the truth.

Hello | 3:36 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Don't say the gays have lost rights, because they havne't. They have civil unions/parternships and gay bars. Straight people don't have that.

Henry Drummond | 3:45 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

I would reply to this article as follows:

1. Using places of Worship to conduct a campaign for a ballot issue is certainly your right. Saying that the public sidewalks in front of those places should be a "first amendment free zone" is not your right.

2. The vast majority of protesters have done so in a law abiding way. Those who have crossed that line have been condemned by the Gay Community. Let's not start with the "we are being persecuted again" bit. You are the ones taking away someone's right to marry, not the other way around.

3. Let's not kid ourselves. There is a strong case to be made that the involvement of the Church was an all out effort that tipped the balance in this election. You shouldn't be surprised that you have united the gay community and that you are causing everything you wanted to avoid. When you sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind.

Going against "Your Lord" | 3:46 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

That's just it...it might be yours, it might be some others, but it is not mine! This is the problem...people assuming other people feel (or should feel) the same on an issue as them. Many people in the world do not believe in the same scriptures as you and some do not interrpret them the same way. For instance, while I find some precious things in the Bible I also find things that are primitive in nature and not for me. There are many things in your scriptures that you no longer practice...you pick and choose those that you want to (or are told to). Leave people alone that do not feel the same as you and they will do the same for you.

re: ROBERT OH | 3:54 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

robert oh i am the daughter of the "mother of a gay" how dare you talk to my mother like that!!! she is not slapping me in the face. IT WAS AND IS MY CHOICE.
One thing my mother did not tell you is that she adopted me when I was 12. I look at her as my one ond only real mother. She has NEVER turned her back on me NOR is she now. If my mother went on and backed me up for what she knows is not right that would tell me that she does not love and care about me. She is the frist person who has EVER shown me true love, and all my friends love her. They can come and talk to her about anything and after they talk to her they feel alot better. SO robert oh I DO NOT WANT MY MOM TO BACK ME UP AND GO AGAINST WANT SHE BELIEVES IS WRONG. I'M ONE LUCKY TEEN TO HAVE A MOM LIKE HER.

Tolerance | 4:18 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Tolerance has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not one person agrees with another person. In fact, tolerance is a non-issue when two people agree with each other. Tolerance is all about how people with different points of view choose to disagree with each other. If people people disagree in a civil (assertive), albeit unequivocal way, then they are tolerant. If people disagree in a hostile (aggressive) way, then they are intolerant. As a result, we are seeing an enormous amount of intolerance all the way around, and not just with the issue being addressed in this article. If people want acceptance and tolerance from others, they have to reciprocate that same acceptance and tolerance; otherwise, they are just as intolerant as those whom they accuse of being intolerant.

UK based | 4:22 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

I have to admit that I was horrified to read about the vandalism carried out on LDS Church buildings and Temples, just because someone doesn't have the same opinion as you does not give you the right to vandalise their property.

I thought you were all about freedom of speech, but obviously it only applies if you are agreeing, in this case at least, with the gay community. A legal vote was carried out and people, NOT JUST LDS, voted the way their conscience dictated. By most of the comments made you would think that the only people who voted were "Mormons".

I donï¿½t understand why people are surprised that the LDS church has taken this stance as it has always been known what their views are on family life. They are standing up for what they beleive in.

The kind of attacks that has been going on remind me of people's attitudes in the past to the Jews and the Blacks, I thought things had moved on in the past century, but it does not seem so after seeing the mobs that have been seen around the LDS Temple.

re: Robert Oh | 4:34 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Thank you. As a gay son who received pro-8 emails from my parents, it sure does feel like a slap in the face.

Robert Oh | 4:56 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

The perpetrators of domestic abuse also claim that they love those they abuse. Abuse comes in many forms. Double meaning words and messages can be very hurtful and damaging. It isn't love saying that you love someone and then feeling that you need to go on to say that who they are is a choice and is wrong, sinful, and of the devil.

This is sometimes the worst kind of betrayal.

If you haven't been on the receiving end of this kind of "love". You should feel lucky.

To Tolerance @4:18 | 5:25 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Thank you--I agree completely. Not many people can expect to find agreement at this point on this issue, as we see on these comment boards.

The TRULY tolerant are those who are trying to find ways to be civil and respect the other person's right to have their own opinion, even though they clearly disagree. Sadly, far too few of those who CLAIM to be "tolerant" really are.

To JPL | 5:31 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

"What are we supposed to say to people who shout 'Mormon Scum' other than hate mongerers?"

You're supposed to call them children of God and love them all the more. You can hate their sin, but you should love them even more than you would otherwise. As Jesus, said love thy enemy.

Your smug attitude is an embarrassment to the rest of us who are trying to do just that. The church has so often counseled us to ignore the rants of others who would preach against us. You have not been called of God to "protect the Lord's anointed" by writing these inflammatory statements. Please, I beg you, learn to turn the other cheek and find more love for your fellow brothers and sisters.

Comment to the... | 5:37 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Non Mormon.

I'm not a Catholic. However, I am very aware....and have heard the Catholic Church leadership in opposition to same-sex marriage, far longer then Prop 8.
Where have you been ? Do you ever tune in to EWTN?
Or, read the Catholic Church news?

Emissay | 5:47 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

In the aftermath of the passage of Proposition 8, the supporters and opponents have reacted very differently. Opponents have staged protests around the country filled with anger and frustration. From supporters, the main emotion I feel is puzzlement. They don't understand why Prop. 8 should have provoked such an enormous response. I would like to share both sides of the issue in the hopes that it will contribute to the understanding of others.

The main problem is with the definition of "marriage". In its core is the "husband-wife" relationship ("the word ï¿½marriageï¿½ means only a legal union between one man and one woman as husband and wife" -- US Legal Code). So when you enter into marriage, you become part of a husband-wife relationship. However, there is also a set of cultural behaviors attributed to this word -- the most common are love and commitment. (Note that the behaviors change between cultures; arranged marriages don't require love, but they do form the husband-wife relationship.)

With this background, let me address the different sides.

Emissary | 5:48 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

For supporters trying to understand those who oppose:

Proponents of same-sex marriage have been taught that marriage is not a husband-wife relationship, but a set of behaviors. Since the word "marriage" is seen as societally-recognized love and commitment, a "domestic partnership" must be something else; a "separate but equal" version that makes them second-class citizens. This is why there is so much anger and frustration over it being taken away.

For opponents trying to understand the supporters:

Supporters of Prop. 8 honestly believe that marriage is just as it's defined: a husband-wife relationship. Since no same-sex union will ever create a husband-wife relationship, they don't see it as discriminatory to call the union between two men or the union between two women as something else. It puzzles them why domestic partnerships with all of the rights and responsibilities of spouses under CA law is not enough.

I hope this helps.

Stop comparing polygamy | 5:49 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

with two people in a relationship that has had other relationships. The difference is very clear to people that know how to end one relationship before starting up another. Apparently, polygamists can't get the importance of this or they don't want to in order to justify themselves.

Bert | 6:32 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Emissary, just because you explain something doesn't mean you are right.

Keep learning.

John Pack Lambert | 6:52 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

To the 5:31 commentator,
I mis-worded my statement. I meant to say "what are we suposed to say of those who chant "Mormon Scum" other than that they are hate mongers". I probably should have said "If chanting "Mormon Scum" is not an act of hate mongering, than nothing is."
I did not mean to address reactions, but what the situation is.
If you followed my posts you would know I have on multiple times said we need to respond to hate with love. Just because you turn the other cheek does not mean your cheek has not been hit.

Alex Trebek | 7:16 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

It was voted on, you lost gays and lesbians. We live in a democracy last time I checked. DEAL WITH IT!!!

It will be overturned | 7:24 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

People in the USA eventually always get their rights. You DEAL WITH IT

James | 8:38 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Alex Trabec...wrong!
There are many principles related to the concept of democracy...

Majority rule is a means for organizing government and deciding public issues; it is not another road to oppression. Just as no self-appointed group has the right to oppress others, so no majority, even in a democracy, should take away the basic rights and freedoms of a minority group or individual.

So no, gay and lesbians have not lost. It will be up to the California Supreme Court to decide whether this amendment will pass or not (and my guess is it will NOT)

governed by law? | 8:49 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

So what happens when a small group of partison judges strike down a legally instituted constitutional amendment? I think someone once used the metaphor "hanging by a thread" to describe the Constitution in this situation.

We are in dire trouble if Prop 8 is overturned because there are NO limits if we aren't bound by constitutional law.

Jamie | 8:51 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

I am so tired of Gays and Polygamists, and all other immoral groups of people. Time to clean up our country.

CTR | 9:11 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Who cares what other "Christians" say about us? It is nice to not be persecuted by them for once, but they are still lacking the truth and light of the true Gospel. Fellow LDS, remember: as President Hinckley counseled us, we are a PECULIAR people. We do not need to hear the words of other "Christians" to know that we are represent His church and His truth.

Anonymous | 9:12 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

You know, the Muslims in California supported Prop 8 100%. No attacks, vandalism or terrorism reported on their mosques or persons...

I guess only Christian denominations are open game.

tashekor | 9:12 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

The Mormon Church spent millions of dollars to defeat a ballot measure in California. They made TV advertisements, they organized workers, they paid for printed materials. How are these the actions of a tax-exempt church? Why should they not be held accountable for this?

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