Deseret News | MormonTimes.com: LDS Church issues new Prop. 8 overview

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MormonTimes.com: LDS Church issues new Prop. 8 overview

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oh boy | 10:02 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

I am a homosexual man and I am amazed at the hypocrisy of the gay community who complains about the "lies" that the LDS Chruch supposedly perpetrates as if the gay community wasnt prone to their own brand of distortion. 10% of humans are not gay, its more like 2%: there is no concrete biological proof, but there is a lot of wishful thinking; Being black or female is defined by physical trait, homosexuality is defined by behaviour, they are not comapartive social movements. If gay marriage is a right - then so is polygamy. Some of the "scare tactics" used by Prop 8 critics were absolutely founded in recent court battles with the gay community attempting to force its views onto others (such as undermining the boy scouts or demanding religious institutions to offer adoption or lose their tax exempt status). Complaints that the Mormon Church is "hurting itself" seem ironic when the gay community is busy shooting itself in the head.

John Pack Lambert | 10:04 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

To Roger,
We will not back down from defending right although mobs combine to destroy us.
The standard of truth has been erected. No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing. Persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, CALUMNY MAY DEFAME, but the truth of God will go forth nobly, boldly and independent until it has swept every country, visted every clime, sounded in every ear and the Great Jehovah shall say "The Word is done".
-Joseph Smith, Wentworth Letter

Who's Telling Lies? | 10:04 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

I find it extremely ironic that the gay following claims the Mormons "told lies" in their ads supporting Proposition 8. What about the rather slanderous ad posted by gay supporters that showed 2 Mormon missionaries barging into the house of a lesbian couple and destroying their marriage certificate? Certainly that isn't a lie...of course not, no sir, not in a million years (sic). You anti-prop 8 people are whack!!

Comments continue below

Difficult Choice | 10:10 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Given the choice of the New York Times or the Deseret News, I will go with the Times. I dare say it is considered a much more accurate (and award-winning) news source.

EM | 10:12 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Whether the LDS church's position on Prop 8 is right or wrong, the fact is that many people view gay marriage as a civil rights issue. The strong reaction to the passage of Prop 8 should surprise no one. I, for one, am baffled by the apparent gross misunderstading on the part of the church. Furthermore, I cannot stomach the church's childish, play-ground response to the protesters: "I wasn't the only one! The Catholics did it, too!" Given that so many people consider gay marriage a civil rights issue, I can only imagine that this has been, and will continue to be, a public relations loser for the church - be the church right or wrong in its position.

John Pack Lambert | 10:13 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

To irony,
The only PR fiasco is what bash back is doing to the reputation of the homosexual movement. Well, at least if its actions at Mt. Hope Christian Chrurch where they disrupted a church service and amoung other things threw condoms around or its actions of vandalising the LDS Church in Washington and then calling on the church to "disolve or be destroyed" were publicized.
While it is true that some people expressed worries that were unjustified, the fact is that preachers have been jailed for declaring homosexuality a sin in Sweden, and an elementary school in Hayward California did have at least one teacher tell her KINDERGARTEN students about coming out day. Then of course there was the obviously planned teaching of 3rd graders in a Massachusets school about sex change operations. Is this what you want your 8 year old children to be learning about in school?
I know someone will come on and say it is, but I am confident most parents think that teachinjg 8 year olds about getting sex changes is not justified.

Anonymous | 10:17 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Well said EM!

John Pack Lamebert: Do you EVER give your mouth a rest? Are you afraid the rest of us are unaware of your position?

Hypocrites | 10:18 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

I still don't see how a church that just over 100 years ago had a different view about 'traditional' marriage now is trying to convince us that "One man and one woman" has always been the norm. Polygamy is still practiced and ACCEPTED in Utah. I drove by a polygamist church just outside of Salt Lake on Sunday and the large parking lot was full and cars on the streets. The Attorney General knows where they are, but turns a blind eye because UT authorities still see them as following scripture (D&C 130) as long as they don't harm children. AND the LDS church is still performing polygamists marriages in the temple, albeit posthumously. One living male can be married to multiple females, as long as only one is living at a time.
When the LDS church denounces polygamy (and all it's varieties) and D&C 130 THEN they might have a legitimate leg to stand on.
This Prop 8 stunt just may shut down ALL churches from performing marriages in the future. After all marriage is a civil right (that's where you go to get a license, from the state NOT the church).

This article acts | 10:20 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

as if we are talking about a simple tax or zoning law! We are talking about people's basic rights here. Yes, a few on both sides have gone too far. But in any issue a few do. Neither group is condoning anger or crime. But many find that religion seems to be out of touch with the real issues here. It is religion's right to marry who they will, but they need to keep out of basic civil rights. This is separation of church and state and they don't even seem to realize that.

kenny | 10:21 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

You may not agree with gay rights but people who argue with those who do are only fueling the fire.I blame both sides as none are Christ like.

Bob | 10:22 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

I think I am in love with Utah Grandma. Her view and written explanation is super intelligent. Thank-you for your thoughts.

Asaph | 10:25 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

I gotta say that the gay attitude about this has turned me 100% in favor of the Prophet's position on this. Shoulda listened........

Non Mormon | 10:25 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Question ...

"Churches have no "right" to speak on the gay rights issue?" - see comments below (from the Bay Area Reporter).

-----

The Unitarian Universalist Church of Berkeley, in Kensington, has been working to drum up opposition to Prop 8 through phone banking and other activities.

Rabbi Linda Bertenthal, of the Union for Reform Judaism - one of the most liberal movements in Judaism, which has congregations spread all over the state - said more than 90 percent of reform rabbis are available to perform same-sex marriages, and she said congregants are encouraged to endorse the No on 8 campaign, phone bank, and sponsor educational programs.

Many Episcopalians could vote no on Prop 8 as well. Several Episcopal bishops of California last week released a statement that stated, "As bishops, we are not of one mind regarding how our church's clergy should participate with the state in same-sex marriage. ... Nevertheless, we are adamant that justice demands that same-sex civil marriage continue in our state and advocate voting 'No' on Proposition Eight."

----

Where are the complaints from the gays and their supporters about THESE "churches" (getting involved)?

Anonymous | 10:35 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

I KNOW what God thinks of gay marriage.. I know that He looks upon homosexuality as a moral sin. Knowing thats means I really don't care what the rest of the world or what the Gay community thinks about this issue and my support of Prop 8. I know God is pleased with the outcome of this prop. and I can rest assured that He is pleased with me for my support of it.

When it comes down to it this whole thing is about good and evil. The good will continue to follow God's law while the evil will whine and backbite about the injustice of not getting their way. In the end good will win out.

I Don't Think So... | 10:36 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Roger said:"This has hurt and split the Church.."

In fact anyone who leaves the Church over this issue will leave it stronger and more united by their absence.
The Churches positions on the issues at stake; the nature of human sexuality, the nature of marriage, respect for Priesthood directive; are clear and unambiguous. Anyone who doesn't get it or can't handle it is fooling them self to pretend they are "Mormon".
Weak leaven will corrupt the entire loaf.
Prop 8 clearly points out who is whom.

Massachusetts guy | 10:36 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Look, we've had marriage here in Mass for over 4 years and it's no big deal. I chuckle when I read about supposed jailings of Christian parents and forced teaching to Mass children of gay stuff, which is just fiction and deceptive exaggeration (at best). Mass has one of the lowest divorce rates in the country. No heterosexual couples here in Mass have reported getting divorced because of the ability gays to get married. The demonization of gay people that I read from these LDS posters is chilling -- they appear to have gone way beyond protesting gay marriage, they've turned gays into symbols of evil, which I find disturbing, chilling, and contrary to the teachings of Jesus. Historical precedent teaches that demonizing a single group never turns out well.

PeppeRiviera | 10:44 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Everyone who says that the Church is forcing their beliefs on others is crazy. They are forcing it by stating an opinion, that is obviously so powerful that hundreds of thousands of people that don't even believe that the church is true are forced to vote the way this church says to. That is so utterly ludicrous I can't even believe it is really being said. If that were the case, that same church needs only to state that everyone in America become mormon, put a few million dollars into some advertisements, and it will come to pass. WHAT?!?!?! This is absolutely insane! How is it possible that people actually believe that because the mormon church states it's opinion, people are powerless to vote against it? I am beside myself with the unintelligible discourse I hear from so many. Please get a grip on yourselves.

True Faith | 10:50 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Back In Jesus' day, lepers and beggars were the blacks and homosexuals. Despised, denigrated, cursed, spat upon, set apart and cast out. Was it Jesus' way to promote these popular beliefs, or to try to show us the true light of God's undiscriminating love?

Why, then, must we, 2000 years later, still support the narrow and parochial views of a radical minority who agitate in the name of Christ, but who so clearly disregard His most cherished ministries? Ask yourself these questions: would Jesus today have one scintilla of hate in His heart for a gay or lesbian human being? Would He cast out from His boundless love anyone, no matter how different their mortal appearance or actions? Would He try to twist and deny the bonds of love and affection between two people to suit the popular prejudices?

If you answer yes to any of these, then you do not know Jesus, and you truly deserve your fate.

Massachusetts Other Guy | 10:51 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Well, unfortunately for you, blind Massachusetts guy, I had my children come home from school and they were taught by their teacher that gay marriage is an acceptable institution in response to one child saying that it was not, and told the children they should talk to their parents and help them to be more tolerant. When I and some other parents complained, we were told that the teacher was speaking correctly according to the law, and that there was nothing that stated that teachers could not share their opinions with the students. I'm glad you have closed your eyes to what's going on here, but your myopic world is not the actual world.

Brent | 10:52 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

John Pack Lambert, Who made you the spokesman for the church? You are not the leader of us all. Get over yourself, bud! We all have a right to back Prop-8 or if we choose not too. So you need to calm the heck down.

Peeking Through The Window | 10:57 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

I sure see a lot of smug and self-righteous comments on this board. Is this typical of Mormon thought?

Gays are right | 10:59 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

After reading these comments I am convinced.

Gays have rights that are being trampled.
They should be allowed to marry. And, while we are at it, there are a whole lot of consensual relationships that we should legalize.

Polygamy
Underaged sex
Interfamily marriage
Drugs
Suicide
Polyandry
Consensual murder

There is an entire class of rights that we, the backward biased majority, have been ignoring. We need to get with it.

WAAAAH! | 11:00 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

But Mommy, THEY were doing it too!

utah rose | 11:07 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

The New York Times prints all the news thats unfit to print, doesn't get their fact straights, and rarely apologizes because they have their own agenda.

And when Jesus cured the lepers, etc he also told them "sin no more".

New Poster | 11:11 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

In a democratic society, it is the voice of the people that is supposed to be the ultimate dictator in determining rules of just conduct. Since this process will never be unanimous, the majority voice is the ruling voice. One of the roles of our government is to insure that certain "inalienable rights" are not violated. The people have a responsibility to determine for themselves what values and moral principles are important to maintain in society and to guide public policy. Religion and spiritual discovery is one method people use to determine what is morally correct. As long as the voice of the people is not violating certain "inalienable rights", the voice of the people will rule.

This system is far from perfect, but it is the best we have come up with so far. Also, what the people determine is best for society will not always be the preferred option for individual members of society.

The voice of the people has determined that allowing same sex marriage (a contractual agreement) is not the best choice for society as a whole. The democratic process is still availabe to all to maintain or overturn this choice.

Rights | 11:13 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Remember nobody's rights were taken away by Proposition 8 passing. A gay man always has the right to marry a woman and a lesbian woman has the right to marry a man. Proposition 8 was about adding NEW rights that did not exist. It's not an issue of equality because they are already equal, it's a matter of protecting children and families from what is happening in Massachusetts.

Anonymous | 11:16 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Sodomy is illegal in many states still. So do we Arrest people for that? No. We could start being bigger jerks about it but we let em be. But that doesn't mean we are about to embrace it or are bigots for not doing so.

DEGENERATES | 11:18 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

RE: GAYS ARE RIGHT,

I suppose to benefit you and your kind that we need to turn our country into a "hell hole" just to please people like you, by supporting...

Polygamy
Polandry
RAPE
Child rape
Inbreeding
Drugs
Men marring men & women marring women
Slavery
Unwanted pregnancy
Abortion
Murder

Golly-gee, what more do you want to support!? Did I leave anything out?

To: utah rose | 11:22 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Jesus told the lepers to "sin no more"? When did leprosy become a "sin?"

open mind | 11:30 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

I have an open mind to the whole issue and frankly I am not impressed by the "stability" and "calm" nature of the Gay/Lesbian community. At first I was against prop 8, but after watching the unstable and vile nature of the people I was supporting, I had to change my mind. I understand the community was a "little upset" about the issue, but that NEVER justifies what they did. There are several good books out there that explain the behavior of the gay/lesbian outbursts and actions against the mormon church. It is OK to have feelings of rage, anger, etc. What is NOT OK is to express them in a violent and unstable way. The church, I think, is concerned that Gay marraige will de-stabilize the institution of marriage. I didn't think that was the case, until I sat back and witnessed the rediculous unstable and violent lashings from the gay community. I am now a strong believer that gay marraige will erode our society and cause the "fires in Rome" to burn even brighter. To all Gays and lesbians... thank you for burning Rome. Have a nice day.

On the Other Hands | 11:30 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

People in favor of abortions want to be called pro-choice

Undocumented citizens want to be called americans

The elderly want to be called seniors

Some mature 17 year olds want to be called adults

Homo sexuals want their relationships to be called marriage

I propose we no longer call the sunrise by anything but Larry.

In fact, I not only claim that as my democratic right but I insist that you be made to do so as well.

Ridiculous.

John Pack Lambert | 11:33 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

To the 11:07 commentator,
I am not aware of Jesus telling the leppers they were suffering due to sin.
On the other hand he did tell the woman taken in adultery to go and sin no more.
Today we are denounced for even saying that homosexuality is a sin.
Homosexual actions are sins and abominations in the sight of God.

John Pack Lambert | 11:39 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

To the 11:16 commentator,
Sodomy laws were declared illegal by the Suprem Court of the United States in 2003 in Lawrence v. Texas. This case is looked on by certain pro-polygamy groups as a hopeful precedent for a soon to be argued case that will also overthrow laws against plural marriage.
So sodomy is no longer illegal in any state. There are no laws that penalize people for living with a member of the same sex and expressing their "love", so it is unclear why the advocates of free relationships are still fighting on issues related to same-gender attraction instead of trying to overthrow laws that provide criminal penalties for such other consensual relationships like plural marriage or the marriage of a 52 year old man to his 26 year old daughter. Since the latter involves two consenting adults, how do those who assume we can not restrict the activity of "consenting adults" justify laws against it?

re: Utah Grandmother | 11:40 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Hey, I got a kick out of your comment! Being active LDS and divorced and single for 15 years -I could relate maybe more so then others to what you were saying. I also was intrigued with your view point of the divorce scenario - that was something I had not thought of or heard of before.. really gives one pause over how this could affect them personally.
Thanks again for your comment

Debbie | 11:46 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Re John Pack Lambert
What you said is good, but Jesus should have told the men to go and sin no more as well. I hate it when women are targeted.

However, homosexuality should always be condemned. Sodomy is an unnatural act of sin... just think about it. Different body functions for different purposes. Makes sense anyway you look at it.

Dude from Colorado | 11:48 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Why is it ok for one group to fight for what they think is right (Gays) and when another group in this case proponents of prop 8 put up for legislation to promote what they think is right they are villified?

I am confused by the anger of the gay community to the degree to which it has escalated. In what way does this help there cause? It's rather amusing that two other states passed same type legislation yet it is a huge uproar about the Mormon support of prop 8.

I am not sure, but I can put money on the fact that had every mormon voted yes on this in Cali and no one else did the number of yes votes would only be about 2-4% of the total of the actual yes vote that passed prop 8. Where is the uprise against the other 96% of the yes voters? Too funny that the gay community is so shallow. Is this not the same group who cries for tolerance and understanding? Hmmmm I guess it only applies towards gay rights. By the way I am positive the mormon church did not produce any posters or ads.

Jedediah | 11:49 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

TOO LATE! The damage has been done. You woke the sleeping giant, 40 million US gays. They want the church taxed and hate stopped. Unfortunatly, this maked the public dredge up all the ugly mormon history. You'd think that a group that has experienced epocs of bias would have been wiser....but no. Now, blogs and websites are packed with information on suppressed mormon history (mt meadows massacre, mormon takeover of idaho political offices, etc.). This could cause world wide suppression of mormons, cause problems getting temples built, getting kicked out of modern countries. In my neighborhood alone, my neighbors put up signs: missionaries go away. You think this is a pr problem, its a civil rights problem and and abuse problem that smacks of the early days of nazi germany: oh those darn jews, what are we going to do with them? After 10 years of being riled up, 9 million jews and 500,000 gays were gased.

Anonymous | 11:50 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are very familiar with opponents who attack their belief. Some may wonder why at times like this the Church has not acted to defend itself more aggressively. In moments like these some would respond in an argumentative way to those who cause offense. This is but another opportunity to step back, pray, and follow the Saviorï¿½s example. The LDS stand against gay marriage is exactly what God has asked them to do and there dedication is to God not Man. Jesus Himself was despised and rejected by the world because of what he stood for and he never backed away from truth. We will respond to our accusers as the Savior did, in so doing we become more Christlike, and will encourage others to experience His love and follow Him. Humankind is being tested as a whole to see what choices we will make not only about same sex marriage but all moral issues.

Sandy Mom | 11:51 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

I'm mormon, and never been so ashamed of my church leaders. This was a mistake. Are we about the business of hurting others?

As for me | 11:52 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

As a gay man who is embarrassed by this whole situation, I plan on spending more time volunteering at food banks and other charitable organizations that have nothing to do with a "gay agenda." I want others to know that there are many of us who care about people other than "ourselves."

Gays Unite | 11:53 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Why don't all you oppressed homosexuals unite, move to Massachussets and establish a stable society that is the envy of all the world and show to the world what an attractive lifestyle you live--wouldn't that be the greatest revenge you could ever take on people who believe that errant sexaul behavior should never be publicly accepted as normal. Can you point to one stable homosexual society in the history of the world? Fact is, if practicing homosexuals where separated from good God-fearing people they would self implode and, of course, fail to progate. Can't wait to everyone gets what they deserve-to be surrounded be people exactly like themselves.

Dear Sandy Mom | 12:08 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

I don't believe you are a mormon.

re: Utah Grandma - Tom in CA | 12:10 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Utah Grandma is more intelligent than the rest. Pretty hard to argue against her "logic".

Way to go Utah Grandma - you got my vote!

yennal | 12:15 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

The LDS Church spent decades arguing that the government had no right to proscribe marriage practices--in this case, polygamy, which the vast majority of Americans considered perverse and abhorrent and wanted outlawed. The Church finally gave up or gave in and stopped the practice of plural marriage--but not the doctrine. Mormons men may still be sealed to multiple women, who they believe will still be their wives in the eternities.

I am LDS, and wonder now if the Church's opposition to Proposition 8 represents a repudiation of not just the practice, but also, perhaps (eventually), the doctrine that supports polygamy.

If the LDS Church now believes that marriage is between one man and one woman and that such laws should be made clear and unchangeable (as in a constitutional amendment), then the leadership sems to believe now that the government DOES after all, have a right to make such laws and that the Church indeed wants the law enshrined in a way that would clearly have voided the Church's original claims that the practice of plural marriage was an inalienable right.

Or maybe it's just meant to show (at least for now) that we are mainsteam, non-polygmists.

KLM | 12:22 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

To Sandy Mom, I feel sorry for you and your attitude. I have never been prouder of my leaders. They were NOT out to hurt anyone. They were just stating what is right and true and what we as a church have believed for years. You need to read again what they have said time and time again on this subject. It was not a mistake. God doesn't make any mistakes.

Hey boys! | 12:32 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Enough hate, I'm going to spend my time giving my men friend nice hair cuts. And even knock off a few dollars for them.

To Not Buying It | 12:34 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Of course, the NYTimes in not biased. Did you fall off the turnip truck and hit your head?

JanSan | 12:37 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

Some of these comments are getting so old!
Some of these comments are not very nice.
Some of these comments are out right lies!

I did enjoy Utah Grandma" and "Rights"
I enjoyed them because I learned new concepts from them that I had not understood before.

It is really scary to think of the whole of Americans being run by the will of just 1% of us. AND teachers telling children to go home and explain to their parents the right way to think about things and that they are wrong - IS JUST UNACCEPTABLE !!! How does a person right of freedom of religion deal with teaching reading writing and math? Talk about overstepping their job! What gives them the right to be the moral compass of our children over the parents? This sounds like stuff Hitler did and it is VERY scary to me !

New York Times Truth? | 12:42 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

The 1960's New York Times v. Sullivan case PROVED that the NYT demonstrated a "Reckless disregard for the Truth". A landmark case of American Libel Law.

Hmmm... | 12:43 p.m. Nov. 22, 2008

To oh boy and open mind: nice comments

To Jedediah: There aren't 40 million gays in the US. 2% (assuming that's accurate) is 6 million out of 300 million.

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