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Police take man to hospital following standoff outside LDS Temple in Provo
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ramper | 5:23 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
To John Pack Lambert:
Who was speaking evil of the lords anointed? You seem to have a habit of shoving your own perceived interpretations in other people's comments. Of course there are differences in shunning and disfellowship. But they are terms that have a negative undertone to me. Telling me I have a right to leave my church because I have opinions is just plain stupid.
Who was speaking evil of the lords anointed? You seem to have a habit of shoving your own perceived interpretations in other people's comments. Of course there are differences in shunning and disfellowship. But they are terms that have a negative undertone to me. Telling me I have a right to leave my church because I have opinions is just plain stupid.
Anonymous | 6:05 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
this article is an excellent chance for those with any sort of grudge against
the church to air their dirty laundry. sorry to hear there's so much
heartache out there, but perhaps each of you with a complaint ought to try to
move on with your lives?
Comments continue below
Darleen | 6:11 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
I got married at 17.....so what are you talking about, and we had 10 kids. The
younger the better. If you have a bunch of kids then the marriage has better
chance to survive.... Mind has :))))
Safad0 | 6:21 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
You're right. I am being a jerk. I really need to be more compassionate to
others. While whatever he did was his choice, but others actions could have
contributed to making his situation much worse. We need to be more compassionate
to others struggles, and the impact that our actions have on others.
In light of the fact that his bishop kicked him out for being single, the experience was not positive for him.
In light of the fact that his bishop kicked him out for being single, the experience was not positive for him.
John Pack Lambert | 6:24 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
I guess I really dominating the boards and pushing my opinion off on others.
Everyone is entitled their opinion, even if it is different than mine even if I
consider it speaking evil of the Lord's Annoited. I think I might be
overreacting a bit. I'm sorry.
John Pack Lambert | 9:37 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
To Update,
I am still not sure you have a clue what happened in this case, but I am sure you do not have a clue in general.
The term "special interest" is not the one used, instead it is "young single adult". Generaly these wards, when not affiliated with university populations, have a general guideline of membership being singles between the ages of 21 and 30, inclusive.
If what you say if what actually happened, which is still a big if, I think I understand what the bishop was aiming at. He was telling this man that he was not going to get married hanging out in the ward where he grew up and should start attending a singles ward where he could meet someone to marry.
The fact that these wards are for people ages 21-30 or at times 18-30 means they are not some sort of "punishment" to those who turn 25 and are not yet married.
Maybe the bishop could have been kinder in the way he presented the issue, but we have no clue how the issue was presented. The more I learn the more clear it is that this guy had serious issues.
I am still not sure you have a clue what happened in this case, but I am sure you do not have a clue in general.
The term "special interest" is not the one used, instead it is "young single adult". Generaly these wards, when not affiliated with university populations, have a general guideline of membership being singles between the ages of 21 and 30, inclusive.
If what you say if what actually happened, which is still a big if, I think I understand what the bishop was aiming at. He was telling this man that he was not going to get married hanging out in the ward where he grew up and should start attending a singles ward where he could meet someone to marry.
The fact that these wards are for people ages 21-30 or at times 18-30 means they are not some sort of "punishment" to those who turn 25 and are not yet married.
Maybe the bishop could have been kinder in the way he presented the issue, but we have no clue how the issue was presented. The more I learn the more clear it is that this guy had serious issues.
Safad0 | 9:39 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
I agree wholeheartly that it wasn't a positive experience right now, but he
has the chance turn it into a positive if he so chooses. That's the great
thing about life, no matter how difficult our situations may be we get the
chance to make life better through our decisions.
Also, I don't think anyone could reach a cap on compassion. We all need to increase our love and compassion daily.
This is my first time commenting on a story and I've found whoever it is I've been talking with to be truly delightful. Thanks for a positive experience on what could have been potentially contentious and mean-spirited.
Also, I don't think anyone could reach a cap on compassion. We all need to increase our love and compassion daily.
This is my first time commenting on a story and I've found whoever it is I've been talking with to be truly delightful. Thanks for a positive experience on what could have been potentially contentious and mean-spirited.
John Pack Lambert | 9:42 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
To ramper,
The negative associations of disfellowship are in your mind and have no place in reality.
To began with they do not get up and publicize that someone has been disfellowshipped. Maybe if it was your bishop, but other than that it does not get announced.
You are speaking evil of the Lord's way. If you do not like the church, you do not have to be part of it.
I will not just sit by and let people run campaigns agianst the Lord's way without speaking.
This is even more true because it is beganing to appear that you and your allies rushed to judgement and made false assumptions about the antecedents to this issue.
The negative associations of disfellowship are in your mind and have no place in reality.
To began with they do not get up and publicize that someone has been disfellowshipped. Maybe if it was your bishop, but other than that it does not get announced.
You are speaking evil of the Lord's way. If you do not like the church, you do not have to be part of it.
I will not just sit by and let people run campaigns agianst the Lord's way without speaking.
This is even more true because it is beganing to appear that you and your allies rushed to judgement and made false assumptions about the antecedents to this issue.
John Pack Lambert | 9:54 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
I did not make the 6:24 post. Whoever did is a liar.
I wrote this before, but I think it did not get published, if it did, sorry for being repetative.
TO speak against the system of disfellowship and excommunication is to speak evil of the Lord's anointed. To claim that people who are deliberating a serious issue can not break into laugheter just shows that the person has a narrow assesment of others action. At times laughter is because of a need to releave tension, or because of something that happens that is funny, it does not mean the people in question do not treat the situation with seriousness.
Since watching the PBS "Mormons" with the radical lady calling excommunication a violent act, I am no longer willing to just sit back and let people attack the leaders of the church.
Bishops and stake presidents are not perfect. However I have learned that the frustration with their counsel is normally a result of pride on our part, and much less often a result of any faults on theirs.
I wrote this before, but I think it did not get published, if it did, sorry for being repetative.
TO speak against the system of disfellowship and excommunication is to speak evil of the Lord's anointed. To claim that people who are deliberating a serious issue can not break into laugheter just shows that the person has a narrow assesment of others action. At times laughter is because of a need to releave tension, or because of something that happens that is funny, it does not mean the people in question do not treat the situation with seriousness.
Since watching the PBS "Mormons" with the radical lady calling excommunication a violent act, I am no longer willing to just sit back and let people attack the leaders of the church.
Bishops and stake presidents are not perfect. However I have learned that the frustration with their counsel is normally a result of pride on our part, and much less often a result of any faults on theirs.
John Pack Lambert | 9:56 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
Lastly there is nothing gained from speaking out aginst the actions of Church
leaders. The Church will not stop disfellowshipment and excommunication. The
Church will not let the doctrines be defiled, and will continue to lead people
in the way of truth.
Professional Therapist | 10:08 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
Bishops are the bane of the Church. I cannot count the number of bishops I have
known who have an overzealous mentality of "cleaning up this ward"
combined with complete incompetence when it comes to working with people and
their problems! In my 50 years in the Church I have only seen 3 bishops who were
capable of handling the job.
Susie | 10:21 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
John P L-Actually, when the church gets bad press they tend to stop the
disfellowshipping and excommunication. Take Andrew Callahan, when the press did
a story on his upcoming church court in regards to his speaking out on the
church's involvement on Prop 8, the cancelled his church court.
I am ready for the LDS church to say 'we are all sinners, let's all worship together'.
As you know, docterines do change in the LDS church. early prophets in the LDS church said that witholding the priesthood from Negroe's was docterine, but it changed.That is why there is a prophet-to be able to receive revelation to change things.
I am ready for the LDS church to say 'we are all sinners, let's all worship together'.
As you know, docterines do change in the LDS church. early prophets in the LDS church said that witholding the priesthood from Negroe's was docterine, but it changed.That is why there is a prophet-to be able to receive revelation to change things.
Linda | 10:28 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
I think Bishops need to go to school and learn about therapy. Some Bishops are
very destructive. They have NO BUSINESS giving someone bad advise. You people
would fall off your chair if you knew what some of the Bishops that I have known
have done. They need to hold court on a few of them as well.
Hypocrites | 10:55 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
I love listening to all you hypocrites that don't even know the facts.
Were you his bishop? No. Do you know the facts about what happened? No. Is
it right to make assumptions to bolster your already bigoted or hypocrital
opinions? No. I have been a bishop. It is not an easy task, but it is an
assignment of miracles. Unless you have walked the shoes of either of these
brethren and know the facts please keep your mouths shut and quit spewing forth
your moronic hate and venom based on rumors, innuendo, and gasp, reports in the
news that may be erroneous because the reporter also doesn't have all the
facts from both sides and is also just making inferences. You are jumping all
over a bishop who is not perfect, but he is doing his best. But you are blaming
him for not being "compassionate" when he did have all the facts and
information from all sides and you don't. Talk about being hypocritcal and
judgemental. Get the beams out of your own eye before making a judgement you
have no right making. Reminder, that bishop has been sustained to do what he
has been called to do.
ramper | 11:04 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
To John Pack Lambert
Your fixation on speaking evil against the lords way because someone has honest feelings about terms is absurd. What gives you the right to judge someone by saying "you are speaking evil against the church" when no such comment was made? You know nothing about me or my background, life's experience, church service, activity, missionary or charitable work, etc, etc. I have been in the church for a long long time and at least in Philly we are able to express our concerns and questions in an honest and knowledge seeking way without being reminded "you can always leave if you do not like it" or being branded something you are not. I guess I should be grateful someone like you is guarding the sanctity and integrity of the church as a membership sentinel.
Your fixation on speaking evil against the lords way because someone has honest feelings about terms is absurd. What gives you the right to judge someone by saying "you are speaking evil against the church" when no such comment was made? You know nothing about me or my background, life's experience, church service, activity, missionary or charitable work, etc, etc. I have been in the church for a long long time and at least in Philly we are able to express our concerns and questions in an honest and knowledge seeking way without being reminded "you can always leave if you do not like it" or being branded something you are not. I guess I should be grateful someone like you is guarding the sanctity and integrity of the church as a membership sentinel.
Re: JPL | 11:33 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
I still don't understand why the church insists the Young umarried people
attend special Wards. One of the things I hated the most about my time at BYU
was being stuck in the various student Wards. Because of the lack of families
and older people, there were no primary, YM/YW or even HP activities at all.
For a lot of the time it seemed like "Fake church", and they had to
invent all kinds of silly callings just to give everybody something to do (ie 10
people called to gather hymnbooks and stack them on a shelf after a meeting).
I think young people should have the choice to stay in a family-oriented Ward if they prefer. One of the best scout leaders I had as a youth was a single young man in his late 20s who was going to college, but still living at home with his parents.
I think young people should have the choice to stay in a family-oriented Ward if they prefer. One of the best scout leaders I had as a youth was a single young man in his late 20s who was going to college, but still living at home with his parents.
John Pack Lambert | 11:39 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
I did not make the 9:54 post, but I did make the 6:24 post! whoever is
impersonating me needs to knock it off! Once again, I am sorry for
disrespecting the opinion of others in my previous posts.
This Is Really Funny | 11:56 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008
I think this is very funny, because of the stark difference in behavior with
this man and me.
This man is suicidal by being kicked out of the church, I was suicidal for being in the church, until I left just 3 years ago.
It was the saddest time my life for being in the church for more than 20 years.
How today, I'n blessed with such an abundance of blessings in my personal, professional, and spiritual life, and it so happens that it occured in the 3 years I've left, therefore, I am absolutely convinced it's because of my decision to leave the mormon church.
The only that I regret everyday is, I wished I had done it much sooner.
This man is suicidal by being kicked out of the church, I was suicidal for being in the church, until I left just 3 years ago.
It was the saddest time my life for being in the church for more than 20 years.
How today, I'n blessed with such an abundance of blessings in my personal, professional, and spiritual life, and it so happens that it occured in the 3 years I've left, therefore, I am absolutely convinced it's because of my decision to leave the mormon church.
The only that I regret everyday is, I wished I had done it much sooner.
to hypocrites | 12:03 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
I don't think anyone is intentionally bagging on the bishop but instead is
trying to show that this was a bad situation. Bishops are **not** trainied to
deal with mental health issues. This young man had just that. The young man
needed some real help first and foremost.
While the bishop may have had what he thought was all of the facts he is, like the rest of us, sees things through his own experience.
While the bishop may have had what he thought was all of the facts he is, like the rest of us, sees things through his own experience.
Rmyth | 12:11 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
I would think it is very distressing to think that people love you by
ostracizing you. Perhaps the real love comes if he never goes back which,
indeed, would be a court of love. Move away from the hate young man.
Know it all! | 12:14 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
When a bishop deliberately causes a divorce then he needs to have church court
held on him. Bishops are not all cracked up to be what some may think they are.
Some are down right stupid jerks.
Linda | 12:18 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
After reading this article and the comments, I am amazed at all the judgements
and assumptions as to what is going on with this man's life. The events in
this man's life led him to the temple and to a close friend. That would
lead me to think that with the trials in his life, he had the blessings of the
Atonement right there with him.
Pray for the kid | 1:07 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
Those of you who are members of the church and go around gossiping and
belittling church members and everyone else. YOU people need to repent--- AND
QUIT TELLING BOLD FACE LIES! Maybe there should be a church court held on liars
and troublemakers.
John Pack Lambert | 1:09 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
The 11:39 poster is the liar.
This has gotten way, way out of hand.
All I have to say is "whom the Lord calls, the Lord qualifies".
At times people need hard handed moral straightening out.
Why someone is trying to steal my identify I am not sure of, but I am tired of it and wish people would stop posting lies on here.
This has gotten way, way out of hand.
All I have to say is "whom the Lord calls, the Lord qualifies".
At times people need hard handed moral straightening out.
Why someone is trying to steal my identify I am not sure of, but I am tired of it and wish people would stop posting lies on here.
John Pack Lambert | 1:22 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
I have lived long enough to realize that people will percieve things,
especially in the past to their benefit. The man in one of my wards on my
mission who was inactive because the bishop had "offended" him comes
to mind. From talking to someone else I learned that what the bishop did to
"offend" this man was to tell him he was out of line for trying to
convince a sister in the ward to have sex with him.
There is usually more going on than meets the eye.
The claim that the man is mentally ill is almost certainly true. The statement that the bishop should have realized this and acted accordingly is built on a lot of assumptions. Did the bishop recomend to the man to seek help from professionals? We do not know. Had this man met with professional psychologists or psychiatrists? We do not know. Were there previous incidents of attempted suicide or other such things? We do not know. Were there past events that should have caused the bishop to realize that this man needed hard core serious help? We do not know.
There is usually more going on than meets the eye.
The claim that the man is mentally ill is almost certainly true. The statement that the bishop should have realized this and acted accordingly is built on a lot of assumptions. Did the bishop recomend to the man to seek help from professionals? We do not know. Had this man met with professional psychologists or psychiatrists? We do not know. Were there previous incidents of attempted suicide or other such things? We do not know. Were there past events that should have caused the bishop to realize that this man needed hard core serious help? We do not know.
Oh,Yeah? | 1:30 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
Hopefully you wont ever be a bishop. Your opinion is way off and way out there.
You make to many judgments of others.
I'm tired of hearing you whine about your identity being stolen on all the blogs----- No one else seems to have that problem. I think personally you are simply looking for attention.
I'm tired of hearing you whine about your identity being stolen on all the blogs----- No one else seems to have that problem. I think personally you are simply looking for attention.
John Pack Lambert | 1:40 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
To the 1:30 commentator,
Actually I have seen other people complain about their identity being stolen, and that was when they were using something other than a real name.
It is not my fault that people steal my name.
I am way too judgemental? What about those people who have spent most of this blog condemning a bishop on no evidence. What about Susie Q. who denounces a church disciplinary counsel that apparently never occured?
What opinion do I have that is out there. That in some cases people should be told not to take the sacrament? That people who publish books denouncing the basic doctrines of the church should not be allowed to maintain their membership?
Since you do not have any real identity it does not get stolen. Well, I have chosen to use my real name, and the fact that other people then get on here and post as if they are me is very distrubing, and I will complain about it until it stops, and preferably until the system is altered so we can post under locked identities that other people are not able to use.
Actually I have seen other people complain about their identity being stolen, and that was when they were using something other than a real name.
It is not my fault that people steal my name.
I am way too judgemental? What about those people who have spent most of this blog condemning a bishop on no evidence. What about Susie Q. who denounces a church disciplinary counsel that apparently never occured?
What opinion do I have that is out there. That in some cases people should be told not to take the sacrament? That people who publish books denouncing the basic doctrines of the church should not be allowed to maintain their membership?
Since you do not have any real identity it does not get stolen. Well, I have chosen to use my real name, and the fact that other people then get on here and post as if they are me is very distrubing, and I will complain about it until it stops, and preferably until the system is altered so we can post under locked identities that other people are not able to use.
Hector Jes�s de los Conejos | 1:56 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
I agree with John. Everyone should use their full names to post on these
boards. We should all live with an honor system to never steal anyone's
identity (unless there really are two people with the exact same full name, in
which the case 2nd person would have to use "II" at the end of their
name.)
Tina | 1:58 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
John Pak
You need to grow up.
You need to grow up.
To JPL | 2:11 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
I don't think the Sacrament should be taken away from anyone. We all sin.
Some just upset people more than others. For example, I think a man who is not
kind to his wife and children have committed a far greater sin than sex before
marriage. I say that because men have the priesthood and are in positions of
leadership, women are not. Women in the church will ALWAYS be at the mercy of
me. In my mind that is a far greater sin. However, most men are not held in
church courts over that unless it crosses into physical abuse. why? People
don't get as upset about it.
Having been in a bad postion with a church leader practicing unrighteous dominion, I think we need to excercise extreme caution in how much power we allow them to have over their congregations. D&C even warns about it and what happens when we give men power.
Having been in a bad postion with a church leader practicing unrighteous dominion, I think we need to excercise extreme caution in how much power we allow them to have over their congregations. D&C even warns about it and what happens when we give men power.
re 12:11 p.m. | 2:22 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
Absolutely right on--I think a gay man would be disfellowshipped or
excommunicated far faster than a straight man who abused his wife and/or
children. That seems to be the way it is.
WOW UTAH | 2:33 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
ONly in Utah do people go nuts over things like this. Life goes on man!
Jason | 2:42 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
Most of you people on here need to develop some good human morales. And yes,
I'm talking about the members of the mormon church. Some of you are pretty
messed up mentally, and don't seem to know good from evil. The temple kid
is a good indication of what's going on there in UTAH.
fdoigdf9 | 3:31 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
Re John Pack Lambert. I noticed there are several JPL on the internet. So put
your mind to rest because there are more then one of you guys out there. Try not
to get so up-set.
KEEP STUDYING and learning.
KEEP STUDYING and learning.
to: JPL | 4:59 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
Salt Lake Tribune and other sources reference the church court. I feel like his
local leaders should have been more in tune to what was going on. Then again, I
have concerns that leaders are not given more training to recognize warning
signs. Someone trained would be more inclined to recognize the warning signs.
Sorry if you disagree, but we don't need to agree. - Susie Q
OnionBaggage | 6:47 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
First: I know this person and the details of what happened and why very
intimately.
Second: I am a non-member, and generally disapprove of how the church handles things such as this.
However, It must be said that in this case the Bishop and other members of his ward handled this matter appropriately and swiftly. He has been getting professional help subsidized by the church for several months now, and I chalk this up to recent life events (mostly unrelated to the church).
That is all I feel comfortable saying without discussing it with him first... which i will not be able to until tomorrow, but, to tell you the truth, most of the comments here are pretty off-base. Nearly all of the speculation wrong.
Second: I am a non-member, and generally disapprove of how the church handles things such as this.
However, It must be said that in this case the Bishop and other members of his ward handled this matter appropriately and swiftly. He has been getting professional help subsidized by the church for several months now, and I chalk this up to recent life events (mostly unrelated to the church).
That is all I feel comfortable saying without discussing it with him first... which i will not be able to until tomorrow, but, to tell you the truth, most of the comments here are pretty off-base. Nearly all of the speculation wrong.
BLAME GAME | 7:25 p.m. Nov. 21, 2008
People with mental illness don't always need a reason to be suicidal.
Instead of playing the blame game, let's get the guy some help. I had a
friend kill himself. He was not religious. He suffered from severe depression.
Should we have blamed someone for his suicide? Research also shows that when
the majority of men kill themselves it is not immediate. It is with careful
planning over a period of time. Another reason why I'd like more gun
control. Having a weapon so available increases this risk. Would you blame the
university if he had just failed a class? There is an element of personal
responsibility here. We all have great disappointments in life. Those who
aren't suffering a form of mental illness are able to handle it better.
People are so quick to blame others for their own actions. We need to support
the mentally ill much more than we do.
Have No Fear | 8:52 a.m. Nov. 22, 2008
RE: BLAME GAME-- Are you talking about the bishop or the kid? Last I heard they
were both getting counseling, and are very much alive.
Even if there was some kind of gun control people would still find a way to commit suicide. Guns or no guns, it has very little to do with the illness and sickness of the human mind.
Even if there was some kind of gun control people would still find a way to commit suicide. Guns or no guns, it has very little to do with the illness and sickness of the human mind.
Anonymous | 9:58 p.m. Nov. 23, 2008
I seriously doubt the young man wanted to take his life due to the actions the
Church took against him; more than likely, his deep distress was over the sin
that caused the action. He's probably feeling extremely remorseful and
possibly even hopeless (Satan's way). Perhaps he does not yet understand
that though it will be hard, he CAN come back through sincere repentance. He
doesn't understand all of this now, it is too new and too painful. I hope
he will get the help he needs and in time come back to the Church where he will
be welcomed with loving arms and hearts, most of all with love and forgiveness
from the Lord.
To Sarah 12:12 AM Nov 21 | 1:49 a.m. Nov. 25, 2008
There is a forth no-no in the catholic church - you can't get divorced. If
you do you can't take communion and you can't get married in the
church again without your first marriage being annulled.
Observer | 7:04 p.m. Nov. 25, 2008
After seeing the problems with someone claiming to be John Pack Lambert and
saying stupid things, why doesn't Deseret News require everyone who posts
on these comment boards to register for a free username and password so that:
1. If someone makes multiple comments on one article, it will make more sense.
2. We won't have people pretending that they are someone else and saying confusing/contradictory/rude things.
1. If someone makes multiple comments on one article, it will make more sense.
2. We won't have people pretending that they are someone else and saying confusing/contradictory/rude things.
Anonymous | 10:29 a.m. July 3, 2009
Excuse me. As long as you derive inner help and comfort from anything, keep
it.
I am from Colombia and learning to speak English, give please true I wrote the following sentence: "Create interactive stories, games, music and art the game is about a flea who tries to get through a year."
:( Thanks in advance. Adonia.
I am from Colombia and learning to speak English, give please true I wrote the following sentence: "Create interactive stories, games, music and art the game is about a flea who tries to get through a year."
:( Thanks in advance. Adonia.
Anonymous | 3:30 p.m. July 5, 2009
Good Day. In all recorded history there has not been one economist who has had
to worry about where the next meal would come from. Help me! Can not find sites
on the: Locate dodge dealers. I found only this - Dodge dealers in phila pa.
Dodge avenger driver falls short of winning first canadian nascar race by
anthony fontanelledodge avenger driver mark dilley failed in his bid to win the
first nascar race in canada at the dodge dealers. Our davie, fl dodge dealership
always has a wide selection and low prices. Thank you very much :-(. Ursala from
Tajikistan.
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- BYU football: Bronco weighs in on Hall171
- Cougars going back to Vegas148
- Utah/BYU rivalry can be more civil143
- George lost in rivalry hatefest119
- Andersen apologizes for Jordan hoax116
- Ed Smart 'appalled' at testimony99
- Revive full food tax?95
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I've always wondered why the church doesn't let 25 and older singles attend normal wards if that was their preference. It almost seems that it's a punishment for not getting married in a timely manner. I've seen plenty of young LDS kids get married at age 18..21, but within 5 years end up divorced, usually with one or more kids to suffer the consequences.