Deseret News | Police take man to hospital following standoff outside LDS Temple in Provo

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Police take man to hospital following standoff outside LDS Temple in Provo

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Mike E | 2:26 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

What would Jesus do?

utah hater | 2:32 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Do you have to publish such ointless articles? What a waste of my time.. he should of shot himself, we would all be better off.

Anonymous | 2:33 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Oh the tender loving LDS.......

Comments continue below

Re: why should we believe you... | 2:35 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I can't believe how ignorant a person can be to actually make such a ridiculous comment. It was a total waste of time and if you truly believe that someone may or may not have had a church disciplinary experience JUST BECAUSE they spelled Counselor wrong, than you are a joke. So many people don't know how to spell well; all it means is they don't know how to spell. Joseph Smith wasn't a very literrate man when he experienced his first vision... does that mean it didn't happen?

ramper | 2:38 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Disfellowship and excomunicate are two grating terms. It is like shunning in the Amish community. I am well aware of the the so called positives that can come about from each, but it is hard to equate a loving and forgiving Christ who forgave unconditionally with "go and sin no more" with a judging process that at times can seem to be an application of the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law. Of course, when someone sins again and again than what is a church to do? This fellow certainly has additional problems and I hope the church and his bishop are proactive in guiding him through what I hope is a temporary situation.

Trend | 2:39 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I agree with SLC, there needs to be intervention in closed end groups like churchs, gangs, etc. These organizatins left unregulated become like the society of "The Lord of Flies" and too many innocent weak minded victims suffer the consequences, from the extrems of Jones Town to this man's sad story.

Au contraire | 2:42 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Re: Anonymous (2:14 pm)

"You're an uneducated idiot. But it must be fun to make up abuse and ill-treatment facts--are you a Utes fan?"

Insulting me or my father doesn't change the facts of what happened. Unfortunately there are geographic areas of the church where members are not very supportive of each other, particularly where my father lives in the Pacific Northwest.

I can say that the change in my father since leaving the church has been remarkable. He went from being a very angry and judgmental man to one of the kindest and accepting people I know.

Carl | 2:43 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Chruch discipline is a private matter and if the individual chooses to disclose the terms, they are free to do so. It is nobody else's business. This young man may be conflicted because he was in Provo, Utah in November! That would turn me from the mentaly giant I am into a quivering hunk of depression in about a nanosecond.
OK, he needs help. The church action may have been the turning point. He had no intention of commiting suicide, but he did want tell people that he hurts inside. Otherwise, he would have done it.

My point is we all judge without knowing the whole story. Let it develop privately and we can go about our business.

Svoboda | 2:43 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

To Susie Q:

His experience with the council is NOT what lead him to suicide. Perhaps his remorse for what he did prior to that did, but not the council. Have you ever been to one? I have been to several. And there is nothing there that is cruel, mean spirited or anything of that nature. Just the opposite. Support. Love. And often happiness that the person wants to change for the good.

Courts of Love | 2:45 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I had church discipline done to me at one time. When the discipline was over, the bishop asked me if I felt, after all the prayers, fasting, and whatnot, that I had been forgiven.

I said no.

He didn't care, and reinstated me anyway.

Apparently, this young man's bishop had every bit as must discernment and inspiration.

Three Words | 2:54 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Remember Stuart Matis.

To Barbara... | 2:57 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

The Bible also tells us Jesus will judge everyone, yet you have judged all LDS as going to hell. Does that mean you are going to hell, too?

Actually, the LDS recognize Jesus as the father: He bought every soul when he died for us, thus making us his children. He is most definitely the head of (and father) of our church, hence the name: the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints.

Families can be forever and that goes in both directions. Families that are sealed here on earth by one having authority to act in Jesus' name (and not just someone with a man-made degree from a theological college)can be together forever. But eternity stretches back, too. We are all brothers and sisters in a spiritual family, with a loving Heavenly Father who wants us all to return to him. Jesus Christ is our elder brother. He stepped forward to save us, fulfilling the will of his Father.

Check your New Testament (KJV), Acts 7:55-56. I think that gives the best definition of who God really is. The Godhead consists of Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. They work together to save us all.

Safad0 | 2:57 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

ramper: the idea that Jesus loves unconditionally is fallacious and dangerous. It could be argued that everything the Savior promises us is based on conditions. Russell M. Nelson has a very good talk on this idea in the Febuary 2003 Ensign entitled "Divine Love".

Susie Q: Disregarding the fact that you don't know whether it was his experience with the disciplinary council that "made" him behave the way he did or whether is was something else entirely, his actions don't invalidate "courts of love" as the proper and appropriate approach. Isn't this young man entirely responsible for his actions? Just because he responded the way he did doesn't invalidate OR discredit the actions taken against him.

Anonymous | 3:03 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I feel that for lack of detailed information and for respect for those involved, this article should not even be open for public comment.

especially after reading some of the ridiculous posts here.

I think.... | 3:06 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

at times the experience after a church court is so over whelming that the mind began to think, oh no, my family knows and I'm a disgrace and I can't bear the thought of letting down my family and friends. My father went through such a phase when he went through the process of repentance.

My dear mom stuck with him and the whole family worked with him throughout the ordeal and a few years later he made it back. As humans, the stigma will stick with us no matter where we are and I think the support of family and friends is very important to get through hard times. Thank goodness this guy's friend was there for him to help him and I take off my hat to the cops for staying back and not rushed in to take him down.

Concerned | 3:10 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I think if you will stop and think through things, you will find that when you are "struggling" the most is when you are not doing what you know or believe you should. It is not a case of the Church asking too much or being too hard on this fellow. It is a case of him not being where (or doing what) he believes he should be.

I find it facinating to see how many people there are that try and tell God how to run HIS Church. If you insist, hope the best for you, but would not want to be you.

Anonymous | 3:10 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

whoa that is only a block from where I live, insane, well I hope he gets better

To Svodboda | 3:10 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Wow! I am so happy to hear you were a fly on the wall and know what caused him to desire to end his life. He must have felt such an immense outpouring of love that led him to that.

I have not been to one. I have friends that have been on the receiving ends. It has not always been a positive experience. For some it has been fine, for others their bishop was out of line and asksed very innapropriate questions and they experienced what they termed as "unrighteous dominion".

If someone wants to end their life after a court, it was obviously not a good experience. Stop trying to say that it was. -Susie Q

Fault Finders Anonymous | 3:13 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

councilor |ˈkouns(ə)lər| - noun: a member of a council.

counselor |ˈkouns(ə)lər| - noun: a person who gives advice on a specified subject

Obviously, BOTH spellings and words would be correct, as the stake president has "counselors," and the high council has "councilors" which would all be present in a disciplinary council of a Melchizedek priesthood holder.

How interesting though, that zealous fault finders are found on both sides of this issue.

The core problem here is that one group continually has the church in its sights, while the other group's missteps continually provide them with ammunition.

I wonder if church critics realized that this young man's angst could be the loss of a career path as his school standing may be in jeopardy. Or perhaps his mistake put his marriage in jeopardy, a situation which "non-members" would be in as well if he was unfaithful.

It's not all about the church you know.

Until there is an infallible 12 step program that makes saints perfect and sinners saints, I guess we should all try a bit harder to live and let live.

Concerned | 3:16 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I am seeing another interesting falsity being pushed as fact. Church courts are presided over by the Stake President not the Bishop. The court is conducted by the High Council not the Bishopric.

To say that this man did not get help from his Bishop is foolish to say because you do not know. A fool judgeth a thing BEFORE he hears it.

Judging from the comments of the anti-Bishops, I am sure all Bishops are exactly the same, and all fools are too!

Not an editor | 3:24 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Dear "editor" who claims that counselor and councilor are both proper spellings: Of course they are, just like sew and so are both proper spellings -- they just mean different things. A member of a bishopric is a counselor. A member of a high council is a councilor. Editors, like the rest of us, are human and not infallible. Just read any newspaper to confirm that.

re: why should be believe you?? | 3:24 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Misspelling a word rattles your marbles when we're discussing this type of situation? Look at your own original post and please note your double use of two words making the sentence completely wrong. Some people have absolutely no class.

ramper | 3:25 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Safad0: I believe Jesus does love us unconditionally. That does not mean he is not disappointed in us or does not require repentance. Promises are one thing but love is another. No matter what my children do will not make me not love them. The Savior loves all but does not love all actions.

Safad0 | 3:41 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

To Susie Q:

You're working off the assumption that something that was said or done by someone else at the court MADE him want to end his life. Stop trying to take away this young man's ability to make his own decisions. He CHOSE to feel suicidal. If he were rational in his thought processes he never would have behaved the way he did. Stop trying to take this man's dignity by blaming anyone but him for his actions.

utah | 3:43 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Well he will spend time in jail for this. Here in Utah its against the law to try to commit suicide.. no joke. but its good then the tax payers money doesn't get wasted for one and he can get help.. just cuz you hit rock bottom doesn't mean its the end of the world.

John Pack Lambert | 4:15 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

The attempt to malign the counsel given by bishops on the part of the 11:38 commentator is unwarrented. I personally hope this man has as many helpful interactions with other people as possible.
In general all counseling sessions are helpful, and to use a report on a clearly distrubed individual to advance your particular grievances or precieved grievences against others is just inappropriate.

John Pack Lambert | 4:21 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

The leaders of the BYU student wards try to uplift and help people. Could they do better, give more support both emotionally and in other ways? Probably. Did I ever have a bishop who cared more for his ward than Bishop Taylor? No.
There is far, far too little information in this article to justify the assertions of some commentators.
While there is much that could be done better in many places, I think it is we ourselves and not the system that causes us to come up short.
There were people at BYU who did things that at the time I found unwise, but looking back I can see they were trying to achieve the best good, and although they may have at times expressed their views in ways that were not helpful, they were trying to do as much good as they could.
I think this incident has a lot more to do with people overreacting than anything else.
Lastly, but clearly not leastly there is no indication in the article that the person was either a BYU student or a member of a BYU ward, so to bring up these issues is unwarrented.

John Pack Lambert | 4:24 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

To the 11:54 commentator,
There was no mention of a "disciplinary council". For all we know the man's bishop had instructed him not to take the sacrament for x number of weeks while he went through the reprentance process.
Your point is good, but remember that the article is very vague. Even what it does say seems to be from the distrubed person, so for all we know this person was lectured on some issue by a church leader and over reacted. There are a great many possible reasons for why this happened, but the real issue is not the disciplinary council but past actions and current mental state.

Safad0 | 4:27 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

To ramper: I respectfully disagree. I once thought God's love is unconditional as well until I read Russell M. Nelson's talk "Divine Love" where he says,

"While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional."

There's more, but I choose to believe what Nelson teaches here. I grant you the right to believe differently.

Mlehnlez | 4:31 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I have at times banged my fist on walls and contemplated suicide. I have been taken by the police to Utah Valley Regional Medical Center, although this was more my idea than theirs, they would have let me leave the BYU counseling offices a free man probably, but I felt I needed to go to the hospital.
So I guess maybe I have some empathy with this guy, but being in a state where I was actually threatening suicide in an organized way has not occured, so the analogy is weak.
At times I wish I could go back and fix these past problems and incidents. However, I must remember that Jesus Christ paid the price for all my sins, even if I probably caused him to shed more blood than the average person.

John Pack Lambert | 4:38 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

To the 12:13 commentator,
As I have said before, I am not sure that being "disciplined" by the church has as narrow definition as you give it. If the church had issued a statement that the man had been "disciplined" I would be more inclined to agree. However, it seems it is more that this man felt he had been "disciplined" by the church, which could mean a great many things, many of which do not fall under your rubric. He may have been spoken to in private by a priesthood leader and told what he had done in a church meeting was out of line. Although such a scenario being called "disciplined" seems extreme, since this information seems to have been gained from talking to a man who was about the pull the trigger it does not neccesarily conform to what we would feel are the best description of terms.

John Pack Lambert | 4:40 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

To Elizabeth,
You are the second person to make the unwarrented assumption that this person had any connection with BYU. There is nothing in the article that indicates such in any way.

Sheesh! | 4:40 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I hope they can help this poor guy. Sometimes the members of the church drive me crazy too. We all need to start trying to be more kind to each other within the church and not just "ourselves".

John Pack Lambert | 4:47 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

To Gus,
Or he could be attending Provo College. In fact there is nothing to rule out his being a UofU student. Also, no where in the article did it say the man lived in Provo, or even where he lived. For all we know he lives at some distance from Provo. In fact, there is nothing in the article that states he is a resident of Utah, so there are all sorts of possibilities. He is most likely a resident of Utah County or Wastach County, but that is not stated in the article and so n assumption on my part.
Most comments so far hve been more illustrative of the anti-Mormon network that comes out and tries to spin everything in a way to damage the church than any real knowledge of the issues at hand.

John Pack Lambert | 4:51 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I am very encoraged by the humility of the 1:21 poster. The world would be a better place if others had his attitude.
However, I am still not sure how the line "bishops are not actually supposed to perform marriages for people not in their ward" relates to anything.
I would not have thought people would be so low as to use the life struggle of another person to advance their narrow agenda.

John Pack Lambert | 4:55 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I am still trying to decide whether the 2:05 or 2:06 comment is worse. I have decided to go with the 2:06 comment. To openly say this man should have committed suicide, and to undermine the effort to save people in such situations is the most distrubing thing I have read all year. Make that all century.

John Pack Lambert | 4:58 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I think the 2:32 poster takes a new record for lowness.
I did not think anyone would beat 2:06, but someone actually did pull it off.
I am just wondering why some of these comments were posted. I also think that the ban on urls should be extended to the name section as well.

John Pack Lambert | 5:01 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

To ramper,
If you disagree with the policies of the Church you are free to leave.
Your comparison of excommunication and shunning is false on a great many levels. However, no one is making you be a member of the LDS Church, so just stop denouncing our policies. Church's have the right to maintain doctrinal purity and any other standards they so wish, and to question their right to do so is to question the fabric of religious freedom.

wilbur | 5:16 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I have been through more than my share of disciplinary action from the church.That is not a easy time for anyone.We may lose our focus on what is right and wrong,we may get a distorted attitude about the bishop and others,we try blaming others and on and on and on.My bishop was my enemy for years until I began to understand that I was my worst enemy.It was only then that things began to change.If you see someone in your ward who you know is going thru these problems, just show them you love them and ask HF to bless you with the proper way to do that.I feel for all those who are having these problems.

To Salfad0 | 6:10 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

And you stop trying to taking all accountability away from others. You want to make sure that this is ALL his fault and the court had nothing to do with it. While he did make the decision to go to the temple that night, it wasn't because he felt all warm, fuzzy and loved after his court. I realize you believe that your local leaders are perfect, but they are not (just like you and I). Obviously, this young man had some serious issues. I am little dissapointed that regardless of whatever sin this young man committed, his leaders did not realize he needed help before he could possibly be in a position to address his "sins".

To John Pack Lambert | 6:15 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Congratulations on being a judge in Israel for others! Last I checked only someone's local leaders had that priviledge. Stop telling people to "leave". You do not have the right to do that.

Vickie | 6:35 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

What is very sad and what no one seems to understand
is that there is not/nor should be any priesthood
that should hold judgement on anyone..C'mon, if
you believe in God and free agency..love and
compassion and forgiveness, that is all you need
to know. No one should have to be shamed and
ostrasized "for his own good". I have been
there and still dealing with the crap that put
me there. Court of love in the Mormon church
is a judgemental paradise for those who love to
point fingers and call it love.

There they go again | 6:56 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

the christians stoning each other to prove their right while a brother is in distress.

Randy W. | 7:02 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I emphatically disagree with SLC, who asserts that the government should get involved in religion. It is slap in the face of the Bill of Rights, specifically the first amendment. Such a suggestion is a VERY serious assertion and should not be let go unquestioned.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

KHRG | 7:23 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Hey, Vickie, I love you.

West | 7:40 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Randy W. hopefully you understand that the Bill of Rights has limitations, like Ut & TX dealing with the FLDS and the Feds with utah polygamy, etc. a civilized society can not tolerate or survive evil people doing evil things just because it is in the name of religion, ie. bin laden, etc.

John Pack Lambert | 7:41 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

There is absolutely no reason why I should sit back and let people speak evil of the Lord's anointed without sticking up for them.

Safad0 | 8:00 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

It's really not my place to place blame on anyone, however in connection with this story all I know is what this young man reportedly did. The story says nothing about what was said or done by whomever else and knowing that I feel it's irresponsible to arbitrarily assign blame or praise on someone I know nothing about.

Regardless of how this turns out this young man is responsible for his actions. Plain and simple. No one made him do anything and he didn't force anyone else to do anything either.

Ted | 8:34 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

To JOHN, You are really something else.

Sarah | 12:12 a.m. Nov. 21, 2008

He should check out the Roman Catholic church. There are only three major no-no's...abortion, female ordination, and persistant schism. Other than that, it is almost impossible to get ex'd. The first two are very easy to avoid...and as for the latter, why would anyone want to be a Catholic in the first place if he/she opposed the Vatican? There isn't even a "court of love"...you will be the only one on earth who knows (unless the heresy is public, it will be between you and God...no earthly records kept)...ex'ing is automatic...and so are the fires of hell. I think though that it takes at least a bishop to undo an ex'ing.

All levity aside, I am very sorry that this young man felt the need to take such a step...and I am very glad he has such a loyal friend who would strive with him in the presence of a gun. I wish the young man a speedy recovery to good mental health and for all the blessings of God to his loyal friend.

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