Deseret News | Gay-rights activists call for LDS help

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Gay-rights activists call for LDS help

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Individual Liberty | 12:28 a.m. Nov. 19, 2008

We should reject the sophistry of those who argue that same-sex ï¿½marriageï¿½ would not harm traditional marriage. The power to redefine is the power to destroy. Even more, it is the power to destroy all individual liberty. Homosexual activists and their liberal supporters tout the supposed ï¿½freedomï¿½ that genderless ï¿½marriageï¿½ would bring. Contrary to those arguments, however, genderless ï¿½marriageï¿½ would actually carry the seeds of the potential destruction of all individual liberty. If the government by legislation or judicial fiat seizes power to redefine the most basic of human institutions, marriage and family, the government will have effectively legitimized the seizure of power to control every other lesser aspect of our lives. Unrestrained by tradition and social mores, political power will have achieved hegemony over the individual and all human institutions and relationships. The resultant exercise of that political power would inevitably lead to less individual freedom, not more. Moreover, the encroachment on individual liberty would not be equal; that is, it would not affect all groups the same. The encroachment would ebb and flow as political power changed hands. The collective political will should not have that degree of power. Traditional marriage is thus a vanguard of individual liberty.

CougarKeith | 3:15 a.m. Nov. 19, 2008

I am sorry, but it is plain and simple what the Church's stance would be. Sadly for the Gay and Lesbian Comunity it will not be supportive of any "Union" legally for Gay and Lesbian Couples. I can tell you why. Simply put, ask yourself this, would Jesus support such a union? Before you answer ask yourself what the bible says about Homosexuality, then answer the question. I feel sorry for the gay comunity however 2+2=4, but 2+1 do not equal 4, they equal 3, and that is a different answer. The best you can hope for out of the church is Neutrality on this one. It would be a nice way of not supporting the measure. Why can't you people understand that HOMOSEXUAL SEX is WRONG! Many people may have these thoughts, and then it turns to action, then you have the "disease" or "Condition" if you want to call it that instead. The fact is it isn't normal! When you can show me two animals of the same sex that can reproduce, then I will gladly say you have "Rights to Marry", but not until then! God would give the same answer! "It Is WRONG!"

to hev | 6:46 a.m. Nov. 19, 2008

to hev- With all due respect, I have seen those scriptures quoted over and over again. Noone seems to care that the scriptures in the NT talk about a cultish practise common that day (called temple prostitution). You can't compare a modern day gay couple to that. Neither does the story of Sodom and Gomorrah relate. How does a gay couple compare to a city, who knocks on peoples doors to brutaly rape/abuse innocents? Are you (and others) seriously comparing that do gay couples, who want to get married? (And, you are aware that the story of S&G does not specifically mention homosexuality...it is all speculation!).

Comments continue below

Sure | 8:35 a.m. Nov. 19, 2008

The nerve of some people.

@ Anon @ 6:46 | 8:36 a.m. Nov. 19, 2008

There was probably a lot more than just homosexuality going on in Sodom and Gomorrah, true. "Temple prostitution" was clearly offensive to God as well. But check this out: "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind." (1 Corinthians 6:9.) There are others.

Sexuality is an impulse given from God, but it must be disciplined as God directs. That doesn't mean we have to mistreat and abuse others who have trouble doing so--that's also contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ--but we need to control ourselves.

That also doesn't mean God will send all the gays to Hell regardless of what ELSE they're doing with the rest of their lives. Someone CAN be gay but an otherwise decent person--and yes, I'm active LDS. However, it DOES mean that homosexuality is a flaw to overcome at some point through the Atonement of Christ if one wishes to enter into the Eternal Kingdom of God.

We CAN'T excuse SSA as no big deal--but we CAN be charitable with those who struggle and wish to repent.

Anonymous | 9:03 a.m. Nov. 19, 2008

Did you know that the saying, "Love the sinner, hate the sin" has absolutely nothing to do with our faith? It is not to be found anywhere in the Bible. It was said by Mahatma Gandhi on one of his not so good days and it has been used to beat people up. It has been used to do violence to people ever since. Something Gandhi would never ever have wished.

Change your manners | 9:23 a.m. Nov. 19, 2008

It's time to clean up America. How can we be the greatest country on this planet if we have people living in moral sin and trashing the place? It will not happen, and it will eventually turn into a slum filled with nothing but corrupt scum.

If.... | 9:42 a.m. Nov. 19, 2008

If the church made any kind of statement of support, I would seriously consider leaving.

realitycheck | 10:10 a.m. Nov. 19, 2008

ok - so many of you have provided a scripture saying "thou shall not lie with mankind as with womankind. It is an abomination".

so why won't you allow women to marry each other. Nothing in there about that.

and then there's Choice?? 12:21am - talking about unmarried persons refraining from sex... saying all unmarried sex is immoral...

so, the problem is easy to see. You all are like the old westerns, with the uptight people marching down the street with Temperance League signs - and everyone watching the movie can't help but think "geez - glad my parents aren't like that". All except your kids - who are thinking "look - it's mom and dad"...

not trying to be offensive, but you all are about as uptight and old-school as you can actually be in the 21st century...

and for the record, there is nothing wrong with sex. God didn't make it fun so we could refrain. Thinking otherwise is simply you all being uptight about everything.

and no, you don't know God's plan. You have some books, written a long time ago, and you believe it's God's word. And now you're pushing that on others. How sad.

Re: YouSaidIt | 10:14 a.m. Nov. 19, 2008

"The point is your own leaders said they are "not against civil unions." Well, then, it's time to put your money where your mouth is. Or did they just mean they're not against civil unions in CALIFORNIA, which already had them? I get it, save THAT battle for another day. That's the Reactionary Agenda."

Yes, our LDS leaders said that they don't oppose civil unions. That is a far cry from actively supporting them. They will not oppose them the way they opposed redefining marriage into a free-for-all, but they will not support something that goes contrary to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, no matter how popular it may be. That is not homophobia, that is not bigotry, that is simply living as you believe. They don't support heterosexual domestic partnerships either, only heterosexual marriage. They may not campaign against them when laws pertaining to the various benefits involved come before the legislature, but they certainly do not approve of those relationships, and don't voice their support for them. Not opposing and supporting are two vastly different things.

Jackson | 10:14 a.m. Nov. 19, 2008

HATEROSEXUALS believe they are better than gay people, deserve more rights than gay people and want an uneven playing field which always benefits them. HATEROSEXUALS are know-it-all that make stupid and hateful comments about gay people which they know NOTHING about.

hev | 10:39 a.m. Nov. 19, 2008

Dear "to hev" posting 6:46am:

The wonderful thing about the scriptures is that they RELATE to us, individually. Most stories from the scriptures do happen to be about something that was going on during that time, but the interesting thing is that the teachings and lessons to be learned are eternal. They can be applied to any given situation. It is with prayerful study that one is able to use the knowledge obtained to guide today. This, along with continuing personal revelation, allows me to hear and know what direction the Lord would have me take.

I do know, through personal revelation, that God is mindful of each one of us. Even if we're gay! We cannot judge. Showing love and tolerance (respect for choice) does not bring one closer to the "other side." It brings us closer to charitable love.

There are LDS gays who still believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Their feelings are real. Their choice to embrace homosexuality is THEIR choice, they are still good and wonderful individuals. Let God judge them, I cannot. The fact remains, marriage is ordained of God to be between a man and a woman. A believer cannot argue this point.

realitycheck | 10:42 a.m. Nov. 19, 2008

ok - so the problem is still murky. Trying to understand if you all are against gays in general, because it's "immoral" or an abomination" or just plain nasty. (I agree that gay sex is nasty, but since that's about 1% of a relationship, I have a problem putting down the gay relationship all together).

are you people against gays in general, or against gay marriages? And if it is the term "marriage", then wouldn't something called "civil unions" be ok and you can keep the "marriage" term for straight people?

My understanding is that gays simply want the same rights that everyone else has in straight relationships. They want to add their "significant other" to their insurance. They want to have the same tax plan as you. etc... etc.. etc...

This really has to come from federal law, and I think within the next 8 years, it will happen. Then all you overly-religious people can sit back and say "only we get to marry. the freaks can have their civil unions, and pay for it in the end."

and no - you won't be forced to perform civil services in their high and mighty church. So relax.

To: "please explain" | 12:38 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

Romans Chapter 1 ï¿½ New Testament ï¿½ Holy Bible - King James Version
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

re "To pls explain 12:38pm | 1:54 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

what?

you interprete the bible strangely. and conveniently.

Fortunately (or unfortunately) every line in the bible can be interpreted to match your beliefs - not the other way around. So you believe gay relationships are bad, and found lines in the bible that you can kind of, sort of, interprete to match that belief... way to go. Bet I can find some that can be interpreted that you should do some really nasty things - and they are a lot more obvious than your quotes.

Should we start sacrificing our children and stoning others?

They ask for the wrong help... | 1:58 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

but at least gays know they need help.

Bob | 2:02 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

It wasn't long ago that "good Christian" people passed laws making it illegal for people of mixed race to marry... the Courts have clearly said that in those cases, majority rule doesn't RULE. That is why The United States is called a Republic, and not a Democracy. The Courts of California and elsewhere will eventually strike down Prop.8 (and other such discriminatory laws) as they did Prop. 8's predecessor law. I for one don't want the Government deciding who can marry who as they used to.

I am a man, and I was not born gay, so 45 years ago I met and I married a woman, the love of my life. If a same sex couple decides that they have met the love of their life and wants to get married (they can find a church, judge, or justice-of-the-peace willing to marry them then so be it! Their marriage should be no less valid than my 45 year marriage. For God's sake, let them live their lives free of the religious beliefs, persecution and predudice of others... including mine.

Ted | 2:40 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

Some on here need to get girl friend or a boy friend of the opposite sex. Then things will go well for you. PLEASE try it you might like it.

St. Augustine | 2:46 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum i With love for mankind and hatred of sins.

Mormon mom of GLBT child | 2:48 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

All that is being suggested here is that we hold the LDS Church to be EQUALLY supportive of their stand in this, their OWN press release, as they were of Prop.8. No one should be ranted at for that! So many self-righteous comments here are definitely NOT coming from a heartfelt prayerful conviction, but blind obedience and NO love. WWJD????

Sodom | 2:57 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

You wrote about the Sodom and Gomorrah verses discussing potential homosexuality but I see something violent instead, but keep reading. What does Lot offer? He offers his daughters to these men. Do you think that moral and good? Would you replicate such an action? You can't have it both ways.

please think...even a bit | 3:12 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

Far from showing that Californiaï¿½s Supreme Court was wrong to extend the right of marriage to gay people, the passage of Proposition 8 is a reminder of the crucial role that the courts play in protecting vulnerable groups from unfair treatment. Mormons were once such a group and it is not hard to imagine that they could be again. Be wise and think about that for a while...

Billy | 3:14 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

God created Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve.
Enough said.

RIch D | 3:18 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

After reading all these posts from gays wanting proof that homosexuality is in the bible and that it is wrong, I've come to the conclusion that the gay communoty will never get it. Proof has been shone, but Realitycheck says "and no, you don't know God's plan. You have some books, written a long time ago, and you believe it's God's word. And now you're pushing that on others. How sad. " They want prrof, but will not accept it when put right in front of them. Now that's sad.
Gr8 to be str8!!!

Dave | 3:37 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

This is like the Nazis asking the U.S. for help in Europe.

They've only emboldened the rest of us and very much eradicated any sympathy we felt before.

What's the harm? | 3:55 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

There is much more at stake in this debate than many people realize and than activists want people to understand. The argument that the legislation activists want will not harm anyone is simply untrue. Here are some of things at stake:

1) Forced indoctrination of children in public schools that homosexual relationships are morally acceptable and the equivalent of traditional marriage (California, Massachusetts).

2) Severe restrictions on freedom of speech and free exercise of religion, e.g., Canadian example of preacher threatened with criminal sanctions for preaching that homosexuality is a sin; Catholic Church no longer able to arrange adoptions or be forced to place children with same-sex "couples"(Massachusetts).

3) Inability of state agencies to deny adoption placement or foster parenting to homosexual "couples" (California).

4) Private companies and individuals forced to provide services that contradict their religious and moral convictions, e.g., NJ lawsuit that forced eHarmony (created by evangelicals) to create a website for homosexuals; efforts to force fertility physicians to assist homosexuals.

Those are only a few of the likely consequences. Activists will not stop until they have eliminated, through legislation or by judicial fiat, any and all distinctions between traditional marriage and family and same-sex "marriage" and "family."

Re YouSaidIt | 4:31 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

The LDS Church's statement had an important caveat that is often omitted from the quotation and the discussion, i.e., that such rights are not opposed "so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family or the constitutional right of churches."

Unfortunately, sad experience has shown that once such legislation is passed, it is immediately used to do just that--"infringe on the integrity of the traditional family [and] the constitutional right of churches"--to supplant traditional marriage with genderless "marriage" and to prevent churches and their members from speaking out on the subject and otherwise exercising their constitutional rights. That is what happened in California, that is what happened in Massachusetts, that is what happened in Canada, and that is what will happen everywhere such legislation is passed. It is therefore false and unfair to say the LDS Church will not stand by its word.

For those reasons, I do not foresee the LDS Church supporting such legislation now or anytime soon, nor should it, given that fundamental rights of free speech, free exercise of religion, and other constitutional rights are at stake.

to what's the harm 3:55pm | 4:42 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

99% of what you said is untrue.

is that what your religion is all about?

realitycheck | 4:44 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

the only reasonable end to this is for the federal gov't to recognize civil unions and marriage as being the same.

solves the gays problem and solves the churches problem.

Real reality check | 5:40 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

All of these Pro-8 people posting have included absolutely zero logic or intellectual debate. It is blindly reciting the ideology of your church, which is not substantive in any way. Don't forget that most Americans (more than 75% in the last poll) think that Mormons are a cult. Based on your actions and comments, I cannot say that you've done anything to dispel that notion.

Nothing but-- | 6:37 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

rotten tomatoes.

re: An honest question @ 6:34 | 6:41 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

Thank you for not being as most other non mormons are on here. First of all most of what you said is correct. The only thing is the plural wives thing. We don't believe or practice in plural marriage anymore. As far as i have been taught we have not recieve revelation to the plural marriage issue and the dead-remarry issue after death. But plural marriage is wrong. Concerning after death we believe a lot of things that are hard to cover in a short amount of words. If you truly wish to know go to www.mormon.org That will hopefully clear up your questions.

RE: Sodom | 8:19 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

Sodom, if you're LDS, the happy thing about the Lot offering-his-daughters episode is that the Joseph Smith Translation corrects it--he was actually DEFENDING his daughters and telling the men from Sodom they could NOT have them. So there's really no moral dilemma posed there for LDS believers--Lot really WASN'T doing anything wrong and doing exactly what he ought to have done.

If you're not LDS--well, go with the story as it is, however you interpret it. But in the Mormon context, that's the proper interpretation.

Everyone against gay and | 8:57 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

lesbian relationships often forget something important. Those who want to be together will be together regardless. Stop trying to put your ideas (or your interpretation of scripture) on them. This is what is great about America....we have equality of people. And where there is not equality of people they will work until there is.

Room with a view | 9:08 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

Everyone has their own point of view of things, and as well, that of the scriptures. The scriptures can be interpreted in many different ways. Hummmmmmmmmm?????

Re: Room with a view | 10:30 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

Exactly how would YOU interpret

"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination" (Lev. 20:13)?

It seems pretty straightforward, with no room for argument, to me.

Anonymous | 11:02 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

I am mormon, I have read their requests, and none really seem like overdoing. I would vote for it if it was one the ballot.

SS | 11:42 p.m. Nov. 19, 2008

I agree with the church's stand. We can say we don't oppose rights for gays without coming out in support of gay marriage.

Okay... | 7:29 a.m. Nov. 20, 2008

So after whining, lashing out, vandalizing churches, crashing LDS websites with gay porn, (need I go on) in the wake of a vote they wouldn't have won even if no LDS people in Cali. voted, the gay community now expects the LDS churches support on this?

Let me give you people a little advice. If you want to further your cause and try to convince people to help your cause out, the worst thing to do is to act exactly the way the gay/lesbian community has in teh wake of the Prop 8 vote. All you did was create even more enemies to your cause through your behavior and it is ridiculous after all this to now come to the LDS church and ask for support.

The people have spoken. That should have been good but instead too many of you decided to act like two year old kids that didn't get what they want and threw a epic tantrum. My guess is your cause will suffer a nat'l backlash from your reaction for years to come.

To Okay... | 9:45 a.m. Nov. 20, 2008

"So after whining, lashing out, vandalizing churches, crashing LDS websites with gay porn, (need I go on) in the wake of a vote they wouldn't have won even if no LDS people in Cali. voted, the gay community now expects the LDS churches support on this?"

Remember Joseph Smith vandalized a printing press when he did not like what was printed. Should the blacks just have accepted Jim Crow laws and said, "the people have spoken?"

I will always fight for equality here in the USA. I really DO believe the constitution is for ALL CITIZENS.

Not Making Many Friends | 9:45 a.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Okay@7:29, I agree with much of what you're saying. The actions of these protesters are hateful, spiteful, thoroughly undemocratic, and are largely alienating people rather than attracting them to the cause. See Joel Campbell's Mormon Times article on this--several news outlets in and out of CA have called the protests excessive, and RIGHTLY so.

Keep in mind, though, that the protest doesn't represent all of the GLBT population by any means--it's a very vocal and active minority.

Equality Utah has spoken against the protests--but they've also picked a REALLY bad time to push these issues. I'd like to believe EU isn't trying to take advantage of the Church and manipulate them into supporting these measures--but they're clearly coming across that way.

(BTW, memo to EU: The church only said they wouldn't oppose the issues you have in mind--they never promised they'd lead the charge, and I wouldn't exactly expect them to do so.)

The GLBT lobby clearly isn't trying to win friends and influence people to follow them. Their tactics are both scary and totalitarian. Open question: How am I supposed to see THIS reaction as proof these protesters deserve marriage?

REPENT! | 10:30 a.m. Nov. 20, 2008

ALL YOU SINNERS!. The devil knows who you are.

Re: Jackson | 10:14 a.m. Nov. 19 | 11:19 a.m. Nov. 20, 2008

"HATEROSEXUALS believe they are better than gay people, deserve more rights than gay people and want an uneven playing field which always benefits them. HATEROSEXUALS are know-it-all that make stupid and hateful comments about gay people which they know NOTHING about."

Really? Did you even read what you wrote?

Not only did you "make stupid and hateful comments" about people who you flippantly claim "make stupid and hateful comments", you managed to make gross generalizations based on ridiculously misguided homocentrically created stereotypes about which you clearly "know NOTHING about".

But, without a doubt, name calling and hyperbole is so much more effective at furthering you cause than formulating a well thought out, rational argument, right?

Homeless | 11:30 a.m. Nov. 20, 2008

"HOBOSEXUALS have no home.

Re: members of the church | 8:13 | 11:36 a.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Are you seriously suggesting that the leaders of your church are taking their direction from god?? No wonder most Americans think that mormons are a cult. Is that like when your "prophet" had a 'vision' that blacks should be accepted in your church, coincidentally about the same time as the church was about to lose its tax-exempt status for that very reason. That is communicating with god alright, the god of money and greed. I was interested to read Brigham Young's quote: Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.

I am sure that you all think this was the word of god too, right?

My fellow people of tolerance and wisdom, don't waste your time here, a cult is a cult is a cult.

Gay is NOT equal to race | 11:50 a.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Someone who claims to be gay cannot equate that to race. Gays cannot claim a race card with being gay. Race is determined by skin color and not by choice. Gay is a choice and I know that from personal experience - because of improper sexual imprinting experiences growing up. One has to give up whatever tendencies that seperates him/her from God via the atonement and if done with an honest heart, the atonement will heal 1000% and take the non-godlike desires away completely. The same can help with ANY AND ALL OTHER ADDICTIONS TOO - I am living proof of that.

richardb | 11:57 a.m. Nov. 20, 2008

How funny!! Homosexuals nicely asking for the LDS Church's help to support their unnatural lifestyle by day while at night they go skulking around in the cover of darkness vadalizing LDS chapels. Talk about hypocrits. And all those signs they march with, blaming law abiding, normal citizens of hate when they are showing their unnatural lifestyle hatred of anything concerning God.

Re: Homeless | 12:12 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

Well sure, Hobosexuals must be having their "rights" infringed upon too, right? Because, really, it's not about the situation in which they find themselves, it's about the rest of us, turning up our noses, and taking away their rights. Without exception, everyone should have equal rights to a home. Regardless of the decisions they've made that preclude them from attaining it on their own. Not only is this bigoted, hateful, and intolerant, it's downright unAmerican to keep Hobosexuals from equally sharing in the right of home ownership! I'll bet the Mormon church is behind this injustice too!

CaliforniaGal | 12:12 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

I had no intentions of writing but I want you to know that I have "enjoyed" reading ALL the comments here. I don't claim to know the answers to all this but I do know that it is just what the Master of All Lies wants us to be doing. Last week after many weeks of being just as worked up about this subject I finally came to the conclusion that contention breeds contention. Christ wants us to be loving and kind and have joy, even in the most difficult times...He did and He is who I want to be like. I support prop 8 to the fullest and I am not a Hater or Bigot I am a firm believer in Christ and living a Christ like life. I stand for his teachings to love the sinner but not the sin with kindness in my heart for all. I just want you out there to know making a sin legal does not make it right....and in the end He will make all wrongs, right..Stand Strong against those who oppress us, this is nothing new for us as a church. We were warned, it would be hard!

Ark. seizes 21 more kids from.. | 12:16 p.m. Nov. 20, 2008

GUESS WHO??? That's right....EVANGELICALS!!!

Read the story posted right here on the Deseret News on Nov 18th....

This demonstrates the utter ignorance and hypocrisy of the people posting on here. I am sure they would still say that these kids are better off with the emotionally and physically abusive evangelicals rather than loving gay parents. That is why it is useless to argue with ideological bigots who are not capable of understanding that their way is not the only way. They are too narrow to accept that other forms of life and love exist in a harsh, difficult world. Look at what the evangelicals have done here and tell me that those kids are better off with them!!! If you can do that, you only expose your true indecency...

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