Deseret News | Gay-rights activists call for LDS help

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Gay-rights activists call for LDS help

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Pro-gay trends | 1:36 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

People on both sides of the gay marriage issue have said that gay marriage is an inevitability. And Utah is hardly the state to measure the pulse of the nation, giving that it is off-the-chart conservative due to Mormonism. Although the hearts and minds of the old are antigay, the hearts and minds of those under 30 is overwhelmingly pro-gay. There was even an 18% swing in favor of gays in California in just the couple years since the last vote. Fair-minded people will prevail over unkind moral imperialists who think others should have to live according to their wishes. The same people who think it's fine to call gays "perverts" get angry when they're called a "cult." Mean-spiritedness is not a long term strategy, nor is unfairness, and that is why this antigay movement is breathing its last breaths. In the last 4 years, MA and CT got marriages, and now VT, NH, and NJ have civil unions, not to mention domestic partnerships in my other states. Hardly encouraging for you antigay folks!

Hatred | 1:41 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

Sheer hatred.

interested reader | 1:46 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

"Gay" activity is a choice. One may be "attracted" to a member of the same sex, and that may be inborn. Responding with sexual activity on that "attraction" is a choice. To say one is born "gay" and is to be excused for one's behavior because of that view is akin to saying that pedophilia is also inborn and that the pedophile's behavior is excused.

So, Joe in California, the APA, or the APA, has it completely wrong, as explained by you.

To those who think separation of church and state is in the Constitution: Mind showing me where in the actual text of the document it says that? But then, I'm sure it's already been hammered here.

I agree with this earlier-made statement:
"[Gay rights activist] strategy is to pass seemingly harmless laws that will give ["gays"]legal precedent so that once enough laws are in place, they can file a lawsuit against the constitutionality of the gay-marriage ban by claiming that they already have all of the rights and benefits associated with marriage, and therefore, their relationship should be recognized the same as marriage by government and society."

"...and thus he cheateth their souls and leadeth them carefully..."

Comments continue below

Unkindness | 1:48 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

The amount of antigay vitriol and spite on this page is breathtaking. If this is what the LDS has to offer, no wonder so many do not consider them Christian.

I have gay friends. To those of you calling them "disgusting," "filthy," unworthy to be teachers, and undeserving of any rights that might suggest they are "legitimate," I do not wish to know you and I want to protect my children from ever being exposed to you.

realitycheck | 1:54 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

all the backwoods people that voted for McCain (even with Sarah Palin on the ticket) are the same people that voted yes on 8. Mccain lost, and so will prop 8.

it's unconstitutional, and all you cultists need to get used to it.

50 yrs ago you would have voted against integration - that certainly didn't work out too well for you...

look at the bright side - once gay marriage is allowed, all you closet polygamists can have all your wives out in the open....

Tired | 1:57 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

The gay posts are as bad as the FLDS. I'm tired of both. There is NO GOOD whatsoever that comes from either one of these 2 groups.

RE: Disappointed@1:35 | 1:59 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

Try not to be TOO disappointed about the nature of these posts. You can't always assume everyone here is really who and what they say they are.

Nobody on this board can tell for sure who is who and from what religion they REALLY come from. A number of trolls pretend to be LDS just to give the church a bad name, for instance. This will continue until the DesNews requires commenters to register and makes them at least somewhat accountable for the tripe they write.

That's not to excuse some of the prejudice that does exist, even among LDS, and DEFINITELY exists outside of it, as we see in the protest movement. It's just that you wouldn't be wise to try to assess proportions or degree by these comment boards. The smokescreens (Pro-gay trends@1:36, et. al) and trolling are alive and well here.

We're all human, and this anonymous set-up lends itself to certain all-too-human abuses. May the DesNews someday learn its lesson about that.

Anonymous | 2:00 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

To: Mr. + Mrs. + Mrs. + Mrs. Mormon where are the gay peoples rights?

God condemns homosexuality | 2:13 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

God Condemns homosexuality. What else do we need to know. If you don't like it - change your ways.

OK STOP TOM | 2:13 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

Don't throw out the mythical statistic, "50% of all marriages end in divorce" it's just not true.

Anonymous | 2:15 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

Don't cross the LDS church or you will see what their members are REALLY like. They might tell you that they love the sinner, but hate the sin, but, as you can see, that is just a line. Just go back and read these postings. Amazing. And I think you call yourself Christians.

Christ would not act like this.

Susiekue | 2:19 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

I believe that we need to remember this is not about human rights it is about dealing with people who have a sexual addiction. www.diminishinglove.com there is an anwer. We change the battlefield we increase our positive results. Are we going to let people who have little control over themselves control our world?

re OK STOP TOM | 2:22 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

Sorry, but that is the actual statistic in this sorry, silly country where straight people in Utah feel so superior that they can post all of this condescending, ignorant nonsense...

Reality Check | 2:25 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

The Church should say:

We will never support anything that is tied to homosexuality. Homosexuality goes against the doctrines of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We urge all our brothers and sisters who are engaged is a homosexual life style to immediately cease homosexual behavior and repent and call upon our Heavenly Father to help them fight homosexual urges they may feel.

Homosexuals are trying to push GOD out of this and make it a civil rights issue. We cannot push GOD out of our lives SINCE HE IS THE ONE WHO CREATED US ALL AND CONTROLS THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH. We will never push him out of our lives. The liberals want to push God away. We cannot allow it and will impose our beliefs on others because our beliefs are true doctrines of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. PERIOD. END OF STORY. AMEN!

realitycheck | 2:26 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

to the poster that wants registeration to comment here -

what exactly would you accomplish with that? You want gays to be diferentiated (by registering for civil unions instead of marriage). You probably would like our posts to clearly indicate our religion...

fortunately, smarter minds prevail, and the Deseret News has moderators to weed out the offensive posts, while allowing all opinions. This is NOT a mormon newspaper, regardless of how much you wish it were. It's a SLC newspaper that understands all people have rights, not just those that think you will get to a special place in heaven if you're mormon.

See, your religion is your problem. You have been raised and trained to believe you are special. And that is why you think your way is the only way. Religious morals have been ingrained into you, and you believe that is the only way.

You have no sense of humility. I strongly suggest you get right with the Lord and realize you are just a small little peice of the grand puzzle, and are no more special than anyone else. We are all equal in the eyes of the Lord, and when knocking on His door.

re - God condemns 2:!3pm | 2:45 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

"God condemns homosexuality" what?

wrong. YOU condemn homosexuality. God has never said anything about it. Of course, I'm sure you have lines in your books that you've INTERPRETED to mean that, but that's just YOUR interpretation. And it never even occurred to you that the bible was a user guide, not an operator manual.

and the bible and the book of mormon were written BY MEN, not by God. So you took a whole bunch of stories, written by men thousands of years ago, and decided to base your entire life on them. Great - knock yourself out. Do your thing.

But since your ideas on religion as pretty far-fetched, don't you think you should stay out of mainstream civic code? I mean, if you're going to use your religion to dictate laws, shouldn't your religious beliefs at least be fairly plausible, rather than fairly incredible?

Should scientologists (which is the closest thing) be allowed to dictate community morals? How would that make you feel, having to adhere to their idea of morality?

And next time you want to say God condemns something, make sure you have actually had this discussion with HIM, not some old guy in a robe.

LDS4gaymarriage.org | 2:47 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

Susiekue wrote - I believe that we need to remember this is not about human rights it is about dealing with people who have a sexual addiction. www.diminishinglove.com there is an anwer.

LDS - If that guy can cure homosexuality, he'd be rich. Our local high school has 2000 kids. If 2% are gay, that's 40 kids. If parents are willing to pay $50,000 to keep their kid straight (I'd GLADLY pay that to keep my kids straight). That's $2 million. with another new $500,000 coming in every year JUST FROM THE HIGH SCHOOL. Add in the 2 Jr. Highs and even the general population that wants to switch and you'll get a VERY profitable clinic...especially since no drugs are used and no medical equipment, there would be little need for a lot of staff or large facilities.
I would LOVE to own a franchise of their program. I'd be doing a service for the clients and making MEGA-bucks. Maybe I can go to a franchise somewhere and ask how I can do it...Wait...there ARE NO FRANCHISES....WHY?....Because his snake oil treatment doesn't work. If it did, he'd have a line a mile long wanting treatment.

suzyk | 2:57 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

To:Enough...well said and hopefully homosexuals will realize they are digging themselves into deeper holes by their evil and malicious ways of communicating. What they are doing does not win friends or supporters. They should all have stayed in their closets. They are not going to change the Lord's way. The Lord did not make them GAY and since they have chosen this way of life with it comes the consequences and no civil rights parade or destruction of property, etc. is going to change that. There's wonderful counselors that will help them deal with their inner needs. They are being led astray by Satan, the deceiver of all mankind.

re Suzikue 2:19pm | 3:00 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

"sexual addiction"??????

are you serious? What does being gay have to do with sex? see - that's your problem. You think it's all about sex, yet it has less to do with sex than heterosexual relationships.

And to the Reality Check poster -
first, try to be original, instead of using realitycheck's name.
Second - the Gospel of Jesus Christ says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about homosexuality. Can you read that ok? Again, to make sure you understand - Jesus' teachings say NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about homosexuality. It is all in your interpretation of certain passages. You CHOSE to interprete it that way, or I should say some old guys in robes that you follow interprete it that way.

your religion has blinded you to the reality that we are all God's children, and He loves us no matter what YOU think. Perhaps if you got out of church more and dealt with regular people (gay or not) then you would understand God's compassion.

I've never seem religious people with less compassion. Are all mormons this way? I certainly hope not.

and for the record - I'm not gay. But I strongly believe in equal rights.

Ophelia | 3:05 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

Where we stand in life, depends on where we sit. If someone has never had a loved one with same-sex attraction, his/her reaction to gay civil rights is different than someone who has a gay loved one. After three years of reparitive therapy, my son -- and we his parents -- realized this was not an issue of faith. He is gay. He's not going to become straight. My entire perspective has changed because of where we sit. If I was standing where many of you are, I am sorry to say, I might possibly be as anti-gay as many of you. I would probably support Proposition 8 and justify that position with my religion and scriptures. But where I stand is radically different because of where I sit at the table of life. I'm a mother of a wonderful, caring, loving, intelligent, gorgeous son -- who happens to be gay. As a result, I support gay rights, because they are basic human civil rights.

kai | 3:08 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

uh explain to me why they are calling on the LDS church when they know where the Church stands on matters like this. also they attack the church and then they want us to support their cause. this just doesn't make any sense to me.

Wake Up | 3:09 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

Ahhh...perhaps these guys should talk to their friends in the militant wing of the gay rights movement before they can expect any sort of support from the LDS church.

Until they start condemning the threats of violence, the vandalism and the protest in front of the temples, I would hope that the LDS church says nothing. I can understand being upset over Prop 8, but threats of violence (and in a few cases violence against property) are not a way to gain sympathy.

If you really think the church is going to support civil unions for gays while there are protests in front of the temple every day, while gay groups are creating "blacklists" of Mormons and while people gay oriented blogs are calling for violence against Mormons and their buildings, then you have ZERO understanding of how this church operates.

hev | 3:14 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

Too many of these comments are harsh and unkind.

As an LDS mother of one lesbian daughter who has chosen to live this life and another (of 6 children)struggling with same-sex attraction I can tell you that most would NEVER, EVER choose this temptation. It is not a choice when speaking of the feelings they have, they are valid and heart wrenching, especially for LDS children who grow up "feeling different." The choice comes in striving to overcome, or not.

Many of us struggle to overcome everyday common temptations that can be inherent to human nature - defect? I don't know. But we battle demons daily that are nowhere near as emotionally and mentally wrenching as the battle of same-sex attraction. Many LDS do choose suicide as the only option, unfortunately.

The Lord is very clear on his stance. My girls know this and know that while I accept them for/as who they are, I do not accept choices that contradict his teachings. They nevertheless feel loved unconditionally and know this will never change, regardless of their choice. The Lord feels the same toward us all, incidentally.

Can we all be less intolerant and love more, regardless of our stance?

re kai 3:08pm | 3:24 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

please explain to me why the church got involved in the first place? You're an obscure religion that takes a lot of money from your followers (in a mandatory fashion) and spends it trying to control the lives of others. And you want us to believe you are sincere?

it just doesn't make any sense to me....

Alright | 3:25 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

What is the quid pro quo? LDS/Catholics/evangelicals who give up their beliefs to avoid profanity laced demonstrations will get what they deserve.

@Wake Up | 3:09 p.m. | 3:31 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

"Ahhh...perhaps these guys should talk to their friends in the militant wing of the gay rights movement before they can expect any sort of support from the LDS church.

Until they start condemning the threats of violence, the vandalism and the protest in front of the temples, I would hope that the LDS church says nothing."

Maybe you cannot read. They DID comdemn all the acts, threats and valdalism. The problem lies in the fact that they cannot kick out those gays who are acting counter-productive. It is not a church that they can excommunicate those who act immature. In fact, they cannot control the actions of the few that are once again showing a poor example of what their opinions, life and dreams really are.

We need to quit judging them by a few individuals.

We need to quit judging.

realitrycheck | 3:33 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

re - Wake Up and kai -

They don't want the church's blessing. They simply wanted you to BUTT OUT. Since you were incapable of that, they want you to try to compromise.

It's clear that the mormon church has a lot of money and can't keep out of the affairs of others. The gay community is saying - if you can't beat them, join them. And if you're not careful, a lot of gays will join your church and change it from within.

And if you think you will be able to spot them, then you've been watching the Gay Rights parade rather than realizing your neighbors, teachers, police, military, and others are gay. There's no doubt that there are gay mormons - they're just too afraid to come out of the closet. To think otherwise is just naivity.

yes - your church has some power, especially on the west coast. but the more you try to stifle people's rights, the more your hatred will destroy you from within. Good luck with that.

To Gays | 3:37 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

We know who you are and we know what you do. Shame on the bunch of you!

Jesus against gays? | 3:51 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

I keep seeing people say things like "gay is against the Lord's teachings" or "the Lord is very clear on His stance on homosexuality" or "you are damned because the Lord hates homos".

where EXACTLY did you get that from? The fact is, you were raised to hate gays and your parents and church propogate that. There is NOTHING in the bible about gays. I'm sure there is in the book of mormon, but that's is a more recent text, written by men who claimed to know God (and you happen to believe them).

The bible came first, and it is neutral on the matter of gays. Why do you insist on taking the teachings of people in the 1800s (who weren't the most open-minded) and using that to say God is against gays? Ever seen those old westerns where the uptight people march down the street with "Temperance League" signs? That's your religion's founding fathers.

Fact is, you just don't like gays and you twist the words of great philosophers to justify your stance. And in the end, I think God might be a little irritated that you took his great teachings and used it to breed hatred.

re To Gays 3:37pm | 3:59 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

"we know who you are and we know what you do"???

pray tell - who are they, and what do they do? Would you like an answer to that question? THEY DO THE SAME THINGS YOU DO.

"shame on the bunch of you"????

Oh Lord - please make it stop... my side is killing me from laughing so hard... shame on them? what are you - like 120 yrs old? could you let people who are actually affected make decisions on this?

I feel like i'm in a really bad episode of the twilight zone....

Stop the hate! | 4:16 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

Gay relations just don't make sense to me. They are sexually discriminatory. Gay men hate women and lesbians hate men. And both groups hate "breeders," the term they use for heterosexuals who have families. (They have derrogatory names for just about everyone.) That lifestyle is all about hate. Now they want to get others to hate along with them. I guess misery loves company.

LAUGHING | 4:18 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

To- re: Gays 3:59

I really doubt that gays can do what the rest of us do--lol! And they cannot make a baby together. SO NO, THEY CANNOT DO THE SAME THINGS THE REST OF US CAN DO-- Get real!!! What a lame statement.

please explain | 4:18 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

several posters have asked for direct reference concerning how God condemns gays. No one has taken the torch and provided specifics.

so - you all just believe the preacher, pastor, priest, or whomever you listen to on Sunday... and your parents antiquated views.... and use that to say God disapproves. How quaint.

Either provide specifics or admit that it is YOU and your church that condemn gays.

re "Jesus against gays?" | 4:33 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

Wow. You are incredibly ignorant to what is in the Bible. It is actually the other way around. It is the Bible that DIRECTLY condemns homosexuality in several instances. The Book of Mormon, on the other hand, says absolutely nothing about it, unless possibly in the most round about way. Of that I am sure. On a less sure basis, I don't even think the Doctine & Covenants or Pearl of Great Price address the issue. They address the opposite side of the issue -- to clearly teach the importance of marriage and family in God's Eternal Plan for each and every one of his children here on Earth. Clearly understanding that plan then leads to a clear step in logic - that the practice of homosexuality is directly counter to that plan.

re Laughing | 4:37 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

of course they can do the same things you can do. Other than make babies - is that what you meant? because that doesn't last that long - 9 months at most - that's all. They can certainly raise babies (probably better than most, since they have compassion, which is sorely lacking here).

And there are plenty of children that could use good parents and a good home. Or are you against gays adopting? And if so, that is because.. ? why? Oh - the children would be better off living in poverty, with addicts and prostitutes? Or anyone except a gay couple, because...?? why?? Oh - they are the devil spawn, destined to burn in eternal damnation. Sorry, I forgot.

So other than procreation, what is your point?

and to "Stop the Hate 4:16pm -
"Gay men hate women and gay women hate men"??? Are you serious? And you think gay people call heterosexuals "breeders"? I don't know who you hang out with, but you need to find a better (and smarter) crowd. It's unclear to me whether you actually believe that or you just like to cause a stir.

Your post is probably the most ridiculous yet.

RE: realitycheck@12:46 | 4:39 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

"DO NOT even pretend that you know what God wants."

Sorry, my friend, but denying that ANYONE can know what God wants is more or less the same thing as claiming to know it. You are pretending that nobody CAN know it. That's ANTI-religious zealotry. Open your eyes.

Rich D | 4:40 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

To those who think we or any church should change to accomodate gays, it's the other way around. we have to change to accomodate God and his gospel. I have nothing against gays personally, only what they do. If it goes against God's teachings, then it's wrong. Remember, hate the sin, not the sinner. This is true about homosexuality, theft, adultery, etc. Just because we stand up for what we believe, it doesn't mean we hate gays. Only what they do. I don't care if they have the same rights as anyone else. Let them. Just don't take away our rights while doing so. WHat would happen if gays wanted to be married in the temples? SHould it be allowed? NO. That's our right, and even faithful members have to meet certain standards including being chaste. Give them all the rights they want. Don't take mine away. Don't expect me to think it is acceptable, no more than I think adultery is acceptable. If you're a gay Mormon, that's fine. You still have to live certain standards and will have to answer for your choices one day. You know the doctrine as well as anyone else.

@stop the hate | 4:41 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

wow stop the hate way to lump every gay person into one sterotyped derogatory mold. No hate there I quess.

Anonymous | 4:43 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

I don't believe that humans are born with a tendency towards homosexuality. They just get stuck with the emotionally maturity of a 9 year old and don't like the opposite sex. As they mature physically, they translate their emotional immaturity into homosexuality.

RE: realitycheck | 2:26 p.m. | 4:44 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

And you claim you're NOT an anti-religious zealot? Read your own posts, pal, and ask yourself if you're actually spreading the kindness and tolerance you profess.

I have spoken | 4:45 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE DONE UNTO YOU....

IF YOU SPEAK OF HATERED OR HARD HEARTEDNESS THEN REMEMBER THIS....JUDGE NOT THAT YE BE NOT JUDGED FOR AS YE JUDGE SO SHALL YE BE JUDGED.

THIS I SPEAK TO YOU...THE BELIEVERS IN CHRIST!!!!

hev | 4:45 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

From the KJV Bible: Leviticus 20:13 13 "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." This is not a neutral statement.

Additionally, I was raised by parents who were not LDS nor did they attend any church. They did, however, encourage me to think and choose for myself. They respected my choices even if they didn't agree with them. Likewise, my children make their own choices and I respect them. I don't have to agree with them but it doesn't stop me from loving them, or from having a wonderful relationship with them.

For the record, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints teaches correct principles and encourages its members to think for and govern themselves once they have the knowledge the Gospel brings. It is actually very liberating!

And lastly, to those who claim the Lord "hates homos:" He has always loved his children; ALL of us, sinners. It is the sin he hates. He only can judge and will mete judgement as we have judged others. I repeat: Love one another.

to reality check | 4:47 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

I have a college roomate that I am still very close to. We even lived together as young adults. I appreciate her love, support and friendship. That doesn't mean we behave in a perverted way. A sexual relationship would be wrong, not to mention disgusting. We have been dear friends for decades. There is no excuse for deviant behavior.

re Jesus 4:33pm | 4:47 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

I see your words, yet you give no examples. So some priest told you that the bible condemns gays, yet you have no specifics?

I've read the bible. I have done the 3 Cs. I was an alter boy (fortunately able to dodge the gay preists) and went to catholic school.

no where does the bible say anything about gays. If you want to act all smart, you better be able to back it up. So give some examples, so we can see just how you decided to interprete the bible...

and no - I've never read the book of mormon - not real big on asteral plains and would be a scientologist if I was - but marriage and family DOES NOT address the issue of gays. If gays could marry and gays could adopt, your issue would be mute.

So you chose to take very important concepts (marriage, family) and twist it to your own liking.

Do you not allow infertile couples to marry in the mormon church? And if you DO, then aren't you violating your interpretation of your religious teachings?

you all need to stop trying to twist scripture to fuel your own prejudices.

Alex | 4:48 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

Why all the intolerance of perceived intolerance? I have never committed any crime against gays, and in fact, I studied with a gay man in college. I do not fear gays, nor do I mistreat gays. Never have, never will. Oh, and I learned that from my LDS religion, thank you.

That said, the gay marriage lobby is not entitled to my approval--only my toleration. They can rightly ask no more than that. I utterly reject the whole premise that I am required to accept the legitimacy of gay marriage to be tolerant. This is nothing but a phony civil rights issue.

Let us be plain about church and state. Congress shall make no law either establishing religion or PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF. The Constitution itself forbids Congress from keeping religion out of the public square. Therefore, I have a right to free political speech, religiously motivated or not. Second, I have a right to vote according to the dictates of my conscience and, yes, by the dictates of my RELIGION if I so choose, and I voted.

@please explain | 4:50 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

ï¿½please explainï¿½ that is the great thing about the christen belief system they can twist what was written in the bible (no evidance of it authanticity as the word of any higher power)to what ever will help them prove they are right and everyone else is wrong, no fact required, you talk about moral relativism. Christens have moral relativism down to a (dare I say) science. "I know what god thinks and he agrees with me," itï¿½s a great way to try to win a fight.

@realitycheck | 2:26 p.m. | 4:54 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

Ah, so convenient of you to criticize someone who wants commenters to register--like most online newspapers across the country. The anonymous nature of these comment boards certainly seems to have suited YOUR purpose today, hasn't it?

Interesting that you think others are so deluded--but you obviously can't see that your own capacity for erroneous judgment--and you ARE wrong!--is on full display, in all its glory.

Just a hint, realitycheck: Be as gracious and civil as you claim you want others to be. Then you might find people who want to listen to you. Right now, your speech is quite as rude, childish, and condescending as anyone you're criticizing.

hev | 4:57 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

Refer to comment posted at 4:45pm for Biblical proof please, folks, prior to any more postings and accusations of "blindly following" pastors, preachers, etc."

realitycheck | 5:02 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

re - "RE:realitycheck" 4:$4pm

I never said I was spreading kindness and tolerance. I am trying to understand how you can possibly think God is against gays. It's written nowhere. It's simply your view, passed down from your parents and your religious leaders.

Personally, I think most, if not all, of your beliefs are fairly incredible. That doesn't make me a anti-zealot. It makes me a realist.

But I don't want you to change. I want you to be free to do and worship/believe as you please, regardless of how far-fetched it is.

So then why do you insist on telling gays they should change? You make up things like "Jesus condemns gays", etc - with no basis in fact other than that is what you were told.

It gives me the heebie-jeebies to think about to gay men together and find it gross to think of two men kissing. Of course, being a man, the thought of two women doesn't quite bother me as much - or should I say bothers me differently. :)

but pushing my morals on others is even worse...

God is silent on gays - you should be too.

Bob | 5:05 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

Gays cannot have babies. It's not fair to raise a child with TWO DADS and NO MOM, or TWO MOMS with NO DAD?!?!? This is NOT what God has intended for the family.

There is 'NOTHING' natural about gay love.. It is twisted, self indulgence, selfishness, self gratifying and nothing more.

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