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Holocaust survivors halt talks with LDS
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Illogical? | 10:12 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
I thought the LDS Church agreed to stop proxy baptisms for Jews who died in the
holocaust whose descendants were not members of the LDS Church. In other words,
if a descendant of a holocaust survivor converted to the LDS faith, and desired
to perform proxy baptisms for his or her ancestors, that was their right, but
that no effort would be made to simply process the lists of names of Jews killed
by the Nazis in LDS temples. As long as that latter practice has stopped, I
don't see the problem. Furthermore, Jews in the LDS Church are PROUD of
their heritage, not ashamed of it.
Ruthie | 10:25 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Hey guys,
I am Jewish and grew up in Utah, and boy it feels great to see that NOTHING has changed one little bit in regard to respect for people who are the minority. While I truly love Utah and enjoy visiting, I do not miss the BLATANT DISREGARD that many Mormons have for other religions. You have got to respect others and the fact that they have their own faiths and don't want the names of their dead family members to be disrespected in this way. PLEASE, do not try to rationalize this. Let these people be at peace. Also, I know for a fact that those that perished in the Holocaust would not be pleased about this. Please use common sense. That is all.
I am Jewish and grew up in Utah, and boy it feels great to see that NOTHING has changed one little bit in regard to respect for people who are the minority. While I truly love Utah and enjoy visiting, I do not miss the BLATANT DISREGARD that many Mormons have for other religions. You have got to respect others and the fact that they have their own faiths and don't want the names of their dead family members to be disrespected in this way. PLEASE, do not try to rationalize this. Let these people be at peace. Also, I know for a fact that those that perished in the Holocaust would not be pleased about this. Please use common sense. That is all.
Soul | 10:50 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Because these (said Jewish Organizations)care and know who the Hollocaust
victim's are, I suggest that they provide a list of all the names they wish
to be removed from the temple baptism.
That way everyone will know for sure, if the LDS Church is 100% in compliance....
That way everyone will know for sure, if the LDS Church is 100% in compliance....
Comments continue below
If I die and you tell others | 10:51 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
that I am now a Jew, will it make it so? I will always have my freedom and
nothing you do can take it away.
Holy Cross | 11:14 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
I was born in Holy Cross hospital in Salt Lake City in the 70's and
apparently they baptized me as a newborn. My parents were Mormon and just
shrugged it off. I was baptised LDS at 8 years old. I sometimes joke that I
converted from Catholicism. The point is, my faith is that my infant baptism
had no merit in the eyes of God. This is how the Jews should look at this.
baptize 'em all | 11:22 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
the church has a right to baptize everyone ever on record of mankind if it sees
fit... who cares if they are jews, catholics, budhists or whatever... the church
believes it just gives the people the right to chose or reject mormonism in the
afterlife...
Media Hype | 12:29 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
We have scored a trifecta this year! The polygamist problems in Texas, Prop. 8
and now this old story resurrects itself. Now that the elections are over
it's time to get back to business as usual.
I wonder if we'll see some good protests at the BYU / Utah game? I hope someone can get this organized as quickly as possible.
I wonder if we'll see some good protests at the BYU / Utah game? I hope someone can get this organized as quickly as possible.
Guy in Sandy | 12:35 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
I think it is unfair of the LDS church to attempt to baptize me after I am dead.
I have written to the church and asked them not do baptize me after I die, and I
was informed that my request would not be honored. I ask how LDS church members
would feel if they were to be baptized by another religious group (Muslims or
Scientologists or even satanists) against their will when they pass on?
Come on! | 1:36 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
What an unreasonable group! They have already halted all Jewish baptisms for the
dead except for direct family members that want their own family/ancestors
baptized and they are still causing a big stir when this ordinance has no effect
on them whatsoever if they do not believe in it! It appears these people have
not progressed much in the past 2,008 years!
Erin V | 2:09 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Many have argued that if you don't believe in the LDS church than what is
the big deal. Their baptizing shouldn't matter. Well as a person who does
not believe in any organized religion I do not then ever want to be in
anyone's archives or baptismal registry. I believe in God and it is my true
belief he cares not one bit which pews any of us sits in on Sunday or Saturday.
I chose in this life and after not to be named on anyone's roster. So, it
does matter to me that I not be on anyone's list. My relationship with God
is mine and mine alone. Intrusion by any church is most unwelcomed by me.
GaMan | 2:56 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Is there absolutely no end to LDS arrogance? Last year it was the Catholic
Church who had to put the brakes on their Parish records. You did not accept the
will of another's Faith. You ridiculed with "what difference does it
make"? Now it comes out that even over the admonishmnet of your leaders you
continue to show disregard for the Jewish people. It is not "the
Adversary" who is the enemy of the LDS Church. It is the arrogance of its
own members.
hopefully soon | 3:25 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
hopefully there will be software that can screen out the names in question.
Arrogance | 3:28 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
to:baptize 'em all @ 11:22
It is this flippant attitude of entitlement that brings on such strong feelings against your Church. You do not have the right to do anything you want with anyone you please. It is this attitude of "entitlement" that causes such disdain for Mormons. Just add that to the list of reasons people do not consider your Church a Christian Church.
It is this flippant attitude of entitlement that brings on such strong feelings against your Church. You do not have the right to do anything you want with anyone you please. It is this attitude of "entitlement" that causes such disdain for Mormons. Just add that to the list of reasons people do not consider your Church a Christian Church.
Pleas Re-read article | 3:46 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Some of you complaining need to reread the article carefully, not just comment
without reading it. The church did stop the practice and signed an agreement in
1995. They have held to that. They continue to remove names as they are
submitted. The agreement was for direct line ancestors to be able to baptize.
If that is not the case then the names are removed. If you read the entire
article it states that new advances will allow the churches database to flag
holocaust victims "baptism not allowed." It seems to me that it is
the American Gathering representatives that are not acting in good faith and
need to return to the table.
Mark | 4:30 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Nobody can help anyone else with their salvation..salvation comes from Jesus
Christ alone..it is His free gift to us if we but accept it in faith. I
certainly would NOT want any of my deceased relatives to be baptized Mormon in
death. They were all baptized as Christians while alive and do not need anymore,
especially not a Mormon one.
Re: guy in Sandy | 5:06 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Your comment essentially conveys a concern that a proxy ordinance trumps your
agency to accept or reject it.
If an ordinance is performed on your behalf and you reject it, then essentially it is the same as if it had never been done.
However, if baptism is essential to salvation, and you do desire to be baptized, but were unable to do it in this life, then all is not lost!
If an ordinance is performed on your behalf and you reject it, then essentially it is the same as if it had never been done.
However, if baptism is essential to salvation, and you do desire to be baptized, but were unable to do it in this life, then all is not lost!
Steve H. | 5:22 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Can we try to see this from the Jewish perspective. How would we Mormons feel
if we found out that some other religion, (not even a Christian one) began to
claim that our church founders had desired rites belonging to another church?
How would we feel if members of, say, the Martin handcart company were being
linked up with another religion posthumously? Some of you may say: "This
wouldn't bother me at all, because I don't believe it." But
can't you see that others would not be able to dismiss it so easily and may
be offended at such a practice. This would be especially true if such a Mormon
died directly because of their Mormonous.
Anonymous | 5:32 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Can these men not understand that we too are Jews,
just Christ believing Jews? I lived amoung these people for 2 years in Israel and know about their justified pride in being Jewish. They sold us the land in Jerusalem because they thought we could not build on it. But we did. They do not persicute us there by any means and many repect us alot. One can find many objects of our beliefs carved in olive wood. They are arragant and prideful and pushy but they are good people. The holocost means a great deal to them and not understanding the gospet they cannot see why we want to do these things. Linda
just Christ believing Jews? I lived amoung these people for 2 years in Israel and know about their justified pride in being Jewish. They sold us the land in Jerusalem because they thought we could not build on it. But we did. They do not persicute us there by any means and many repect us alot. One can find many objects of our beliefs carved in olive wood. They are arragant and prideful and pushy but they are good people. The holocost means a great deal to them and not understanding the gospet they cannot see why we want to do these things. Linda
Gramajane | 5:40 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
The DATES of all baptisms are on record, (and of sealing their marriages for
time and all eternity and children to their parents)- there is also a place for
WHO submitted the name for the work to be done! So it should be NO problem to
tell on LDS records if they were a member when they died, as their birth &
death dates are there too (along with places if known!)--- This info is not
elsewhere.
---Also, LDS DO NOT increase membership numbers by baptisms for the dead that are done. Our membership numbers are for those living on the earth at THIS time so of course we even remove those who die from the lists!
---I knew members in San Mateo in the 1970's who had THEMSELVES been Holocaust survivors (One sister showed me her number tattoo on her arm even!) They submitted the names for their family! See 1st Corinthians 15:9 for the BIBLE reference to baptism for the dead, used by Paul as a proof that there was resurrection of the dead. To LDS these are not "just names" but existing spirits with choices! John 5:25, 1 Peter 3:19, 4:6. Please read it!
---Also, LDS DO NOT increase membership numbers by baptisms for the dead that are done. Our membership numbers are for those living on the earth at THIS time so of course we even remove those who die from the lists!
---I knew members in San Mateo in the 1970's who had THEMSELVES been Holocaust survivors (One sister showed me her number tattoo on her arm even!) They submitted the names for their family! See 1st Corinthians 15:9 for the BIBLE reference to baptism for the dead, used by Paul as a proof that there was resurrection of the dead. To LDS these are not "just names" but existing spirits with choices! John 5:25, 1 Peter 3:19, 4:6. Please read it!
LOL | 5:55 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
I see a lot of posts stating 'what's the big deal? if you don't
believe in the church then what harm are we causing you? who cares?'. If
you all feel that this is a trivial point then why not just leave it alone and
stop bothering people's souls? Things that are not a big deal can swing in
either direction.
I for one would like you to keep your beliefs to yourself as I am already saved in my ONE TRUE CHURCH and it sure isn't a Mormon church. LEAVE MY SOUL ALONE!!!
I for one would like you to keep your beliefs to yourself as I am already saved in my ONE TRUE CHURCH and it sure isn't a Mormon church. LEAVE MY SOUL ALONE!!!
Nothing better to do | 6:09 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
This whole issue and the media attention it recieves is offensive to any
thinking person of either faith.
If the Jews beliefs are right, than whatever the Mormons do regarding baptism for the dead is of no effect in the afterlife and dosen't matter.
If the Mormons beliefs are right than baptism for the dead is an act of incedible charity and love for the Jewish people.
Either way there is nothing for anyone to fight about. Dosen't the media have anything better to do?
If the Jews beliefs are right, than whatever the Mormons do regarding baptism for the dead is of no effect in the afterlife and dosen't matter.
If the Mormons beliefs are right than baptism for the dead is an act of incedible charity and love for the Jewish people.
Either way there is nothing for anyone to fight about. Dosen't the media have anything better to do?
LDS w/Jewish heritage | 6:14 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
My ancestors on my mother's side are Jewish and I am a devote Mormon
convert. I happily did the work for my ancestors because I want to know that if
they so choose to be sealed as a family, the work has been done. It is work
that can only be done on this side of the veil. And they have their free agency
to accept the work. It does not take away who they are or were on this side of
the veil. Beside, baptism has been done for centuries. It is even mentioned in
the Bible. I love my heritage, but I have a strong testimony that the Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the only true church on the earth. And I
love my family enough to want all to be together for eternity.
Cats | 6:15 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Being baptized by proxy is a blessing to all these individuals. And, one of the
blessings is that free agency always applies. Those who understand what a
blessing it is are grateful to receive it. Those who don't want it are not
forced to accept it.
It's really sad that this group does not want others to receive this blessing. No one is being hurt or disrespected. I'm glad that this work is still going on for the families of members and others throughout the world.
It's really sad that this group does not want others to receive this blessing. No one is being hurt or disrespected. I'm glad that this work is still going on for the families of members and others throughout the world.
Guy in west Valley | 7:09 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
To -Guy in Sandy- If that is a part of their religious belief, I have no problem
with someone baptizing themselves for my ancestors. As a member of the LDS faith
I know what they do would have no affect on things pertaining to the afterlife,
because they have no authority. But they should be allowed to do it because our
constitution grants them that right, so long as it doesn't hurt or kill
anyone else. I say Shame on this Jewish Holocaust organization for acting the
way they do. they're demands are unconstitutional.
Scott | 7:10 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
The church cannot stop members from submitting names. It can only try to catch
any names that should not have been submitted. And, as the article clearly
states, the church has done exactly that. It has removed 260,000 names that
were requested to be removed. It has additionally, scrubbed the database, to
the best of its ability, and removed and re-removed names that should not have
been submitted due to the agreement. There is absolutely no way to control it
100%. The church is trying to conform to the spirit of the agreement.
Re: Guy in Sandy | 7:14 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
I do not believe Muslims, Scientologists, or Satanists would be performing
baptisms authorized by God, so I would have no problem with it. If you do not
believe the faith is correct, then why should it matter if church members
perform "false" baptisms by proxy? If, on the other hand, the church
is true, members are doing you a great service by performing the baptism.
Debbie | 7:19 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Maybe I don't understand what has happened but here goes. The Church has
agreed to stop the mass baptizing of Jewish Holocaust victims and has worked to
remove the names of those who have been done. INDIVIDIAL members keep
submitting names not in their heritage (which is a no no guys!!). The church
has hired people to check and find names individuals have slipped in and then
removed them. It sounds to me that the problem now lies in individual members
not respecting the program and admonissions of leaders to stop doing so. We are
repeatedly asked to concentrate on submitting names in our OWN backgrounds and
leave lists we come across alone. No matter how well meaning you may be this is
not your place and it only ends up causing trouble for the church. You are not
an exception!!!
Clare | 7:32 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
I recently found out that my ancestry on my father's birth side it Jewish!
I'm thrilled and I'm also LDS. I'm hoping to do all my
descendents and relatives temple work! Looks like I may have had an ancestor
who died in a concentration camp. Interestingly enough, they all converted to
Catholism when they came to America. I hope this Jewish group can deal with the
fact that I'm going to do this! These are my relatives! AWESOME!
AZ | 7:45 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
The first shall be last and the last shall be first.
Laura | 7:51 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
I have such tender feelings for these descendants of such a gruesome ordeal.
However, I've never understood why someone who doesn't believe the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to be the true church of God would
care what we did.
It's a delicate situation. I trust Elder Jensen completely and know he will handle this with great gentleness and care.
It's a delicate situation. I trust Elder Jensen completely and know he will handle this with great gentleness and care.
Simple fix | 7:55 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Create a db of all Holocaust victims/survivors. Get the Holocaust group to OK
the list and even add to it if needed. Check EVERY name submitted for Temple
work against that list and reject it if matched. Reject any of the submitted
names, based on name. Problem solved (for the Jewish group at least).
It's not rocket science, it's an outer join to correctly pull
data...
What a shame that Temple work is so misunderstood that groups like Jews and Catholics have trouble understanding how it really works; that no actual conversion happens at baptism time...and for those groups to limit their deceased members' opportunities in the future, how disappointing and short-sighted.
What a shame that Temple work is so misunderstood that groups like Jews and Catholics have trouble understanding how it really works; that no actual conversion happens at baptism time...and for those groups to limit their deceased members' opportunities in the future, how disappointing and short-sighted.
Anonymous | 7:59 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
why doesnt the lds church wait until the second coming to do the baptisms then
it will not be disputed and you wont have to disrespect those of other faiths
right now? just asking for trouble by continuing this practice in todays
culture.
honor agreements | 8:06 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
My understanding was that the LDS Church made an agreement in 1995 not to permit baptisms of Holocaust victims, except under certain circumstances. Did the Church make the agreement or not? If so, the Church needs to honor the agreement.I cannot imagine a true disciple of Jesus Christ not honoring an obligation.
Re: Guy in Sandy | 8:06 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Do you believe that God would allow the choices of someone else to affect your
eternal soul? That doesn't sound like a very fair God to me. On the other
hand, if God decrees that all must be baptized with his authority and you are
not when you die (maybe you never had the chance) then when someone performs
baptism on your behalf, wouldn't you be grateful? If they perform a
baptisms that isn't valid, do you think God would take away your reward
because of that?
As a side note, I'm sure the LDS church (as an organization) has been faithful to the commitment, however it is the members that enter the names. Many of the members are new converts (1/3 of all Mormons are first generation) and don't know of this stipulation. Unless the Jews furnish the names of the Jews that they don't want baptized, it will be impossible to stop. Plus there are Jewish converts to the LDS church. They have just as much right as the other decendents to perform baptism in behalf of their ancestors. Solution anyone? I recommend we follow the prophet's words exactly. He doesn't mess up. We do.
As a side note, I'm sure the LDS church (as an organization) has been faithful to the commitment, however it is the members that enter the names. Many of the members are new converts (1/3 of all Mormons are first generation) and don't know of this stipulation. Unless the Jews furnish the names of the Jews that they don't want baptized, it will be impossible to stop. Plus there are Jewish converts to the LDS church. They have just as much right as the other decendents to perform baptism in behalf of their ancestors. Solution anyone? I recommend we follow the prophet's words exactly. He doesn't mess up. We do.
Eddie | 8:08 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Are the Holocaust victims complaining? The Jews have more right complaining
about baptizing for their ancestors than for people with whom they have no legal
or family connection.
If the Jews believe we are causing pain to those people, it's time they receive our missionaries. If the person receiving baptism does not accept it, then the person doing the baptism just got wet. However, this does not diminish the devotion and faith of the person permorming the baptism.
If the Jews believe we are causing pain to those people, it's time they receive our missionaries. If the person receiving baptism does not accept it, then the person doing the baptism just got wet. However, this does not diminish the devotion and faith of the person permorming the baptism.
This is crazy. | 8:10 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
So they're telling me that I can't perform work for my great, great
grandfather because he was a Holocaust survivor. What right do they have to
tell me that? Tell THEM to leave my family alone! He's MY relative,
I'LL make the decision, NOT them!
Anonymous | 8:12 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Just teach and baptize more decedents of Holocaust victims baptize their
ancestors and problem solved.
You LDS Just Don't Get It... | 8:17 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
We non-LDS want you to leave us alone in life and death. But you are holier
than thou and will do it anyway. I curse the first mormon that forces their
religion on me when I die just as I curse you for forcing your beliefs on me in
life.
I am a former mormon and will remain as such even in death. Please, leave me alone.
I am a former mormon and will remain as such even in death. Please, leave me alone.
Talisyn | 8:20 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
It seems like another start of the 'pick-on-the-Mormons' game. Would
the talks between the Jewish Holocaust group and the LDS Church have broken up
if the Prop. 8 had failed? I doubt it. How soon will it be before gay advocacy
groups pointed to this as more 'proof' of Mormon intolerance?
Re: On second thought | 8:22 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
No one understands persecution as closely to the Jews as the LDS church, only
today, it is still widely acceptable to be bigoted against the LDS church. At
least great strides have been made to stop the bigotry against the Jews.
Your comment was out of line and extremely prejudiced, and the only thing that the LDS church has ever sought for was the right to peacefully exercise their religious freedoms. It is obvious that our leaders have extended themselves to the Jews (to try to come to a compromise where BOTH religions could come to an agreement, not just one of the religion's rights be held as most important), and this is evident by how shocked the LDS leaders were that the Jews so quickly pulled out, even after they had formed a relationship over the course of 15 or so years.
Maybe you should consider how much bigotry still exists toward the LDS church and understand how that affects choices of other religions before you speak out against us. Funny that you want Utah to go away. Utah exists because the Mormons left other persecution. You would do well to understand from a Mormon point of view, too.
Your comment was out of line and extremely prejudiced, and the only thing that the LDS church has ever sought for was the right to peacefully exercise their religious freedoms. It is obvious that our leaders have extended themselves to the Jews (to try to come to a compromise where BOTH religions could come to an agreement, not just one of the religion's rights be held as most important), and this is evident by how shocked the LDS leaders were that the Jews so quickly pulled out, even after they had formed a relationship over the course of 15 or so years.
Maybe you should consider how much bigotry still exists toward the LDS church and understand how that affects choices of other religions before you speak out against us. Funny that you want Utah to go away. Utah exists because the Mormons left other persecution. You would do well to understand from a Mormon point of view, too.
Come on.. | 8:24 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
"They tell me that my parents' Jewishness has not been altered,
but ... 100 years from now, how will they be able to guarantee that my mother
and father of blessed memory who lived as Jews and were slaughtered by Hitler
for no other reason than they were Jews, will someday not be identified as
Mormon victims of the Holocaust?"
With all due respect, this statement is really off the wall. Does Michel really believe that will happen. Not with the sentiment that most of the world holds for the LDS Church. He should come up with a better argument--though I doubt he has one other than he believes it does have some effect.
The actions taken by Jews and recently by Catholics show a blatant lack of understanding or disregard of the principle of free agency--something that I'm glad that my LDS faith teaches.
With all due respect, this statement is really off the wall. Does Michel really believe that will happen. Not with the sentiment that most of the world holds for the LDS Church. He should come up with a better argument--though I doubt he has one other than he believes it does have some effect.
The actions taken by Jews and recently by Catholics show a blatant lack of understanding or disregard of the principle of free agency--something that I'm glad that my LDS faith teaches.
paa | 8:31 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
The Church is in the process of a complete overhaul of the whole system of how
proxy temple work is done, and how the records are kept and maintained. Once
this is done, it will be feasible to comply with the requests of those groups
who wish to not have their people baptized by proxy. Before that, it was very
difficult if not impossible to fully comply with those requests. To find fault
and criticize without trying to understand this, is the hallmark of trouble
makers like Helen Radkey, who is out to attack the LDS faith every chance she
gets. She is the one who has helped turn Ernest Michel against trying to work
with the church over this. It wouldn't surprise me also if she is the
trouble maker who turned the Catholic leaders against the church on this same
issue, to try to prevent the sharing of genealogical information with LDS
members. She tries to lable herself as an independent researcher, but she is an
avowed anti-Mormon, and a former Mormon who is mad about the church not hiring
her to keep tabs on the temple name database so she convinced Ernest Michel to
hire her instead.
Benjamin Hyam | 8:39 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
My ancestors changed their name often to avoid discrimination. Now, even the
Church is involved by separating the names of the Jews from the data base and
trying to appease Jewish extremist groups. The Jews deserve to have their temple
work done as much as any other group. The promises the Church made to this group
are wrong. I am proud to do work for my Jewish ancestors. The Church even phoned
my mother a few years ago asking why we were doing Jewish work. If they had
phoned me I would have set them straight. While my ancestors came to England in
the mid 1700's, I must have distant relations that were in the holocaust. I
also found one in France. Do not treat the Jews any worse than Catholics and
Methodists. Let those of us of Jewish descent do our work unfettered. Any thing
else is wrong.
Anonymous | 8:41 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Everyone keeps posting that they don't understand why it bothers the Jews
so much if they don't believe it's true. Ok, you don't
understand it. You don't need to understand it, just do as they ask.
It's not the same as praying for someone, it's not the same as
lighting a candle for them, you're BAPTISING someone into a different faith
than the one they chose. If it bothers them, than be polite and don't do
it anymore. It really isn't that difficult a concept to grasp.
Robert Oh | 8:43 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
You're going to have a thousand years after the big guy comes back. Put a
flag on the name of all those names in question and do the dunking then.
C'mon folks you have a very long time to get everyone wet. Honor those who want you not to do it. Then, you can do it later.
Problem solved.
C'mon folks you have a very long time to get everyone wet. Honor those who want you not to do it. Then, you can do it later.
Problem solved.
LDS Computer Scientist | 8:50 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
It's not arrogance, nor is it an anti-Jewish conspiracy. It's simply
a matter of adapting old software to do something new, something it wasn't
originally designed to do. Which is not as simple as you might think. Most of
you have used Microsoft Windows, right? How many of you remember Windows 3.0,
or even Windows '95? How many years have passed since then, and how many
Microsoft employees have put work on improving to Windows Vista? And is this
the Windows to end all Windows, or are there still things that need to be fixed
in it?
Give it some time. Apparently the new software will actually prevent these names from being submitted, but don't be too surprised if there are still bugs in it. Be patient with us, we'll get it right.
Give it some time. Apparently the new software will actually prevent these names from being submitted, but don't be too surprised if there are still bugs in it. Be patient with us, we'll get it right.
paa | 8:58 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Ernest Michel and other prominent Jews should be more concerned about the large
number of modern living Jews who are abandoning their religion (i.e. look at
many in Hollywood and elsewhere among the prominent Jews in America, Bill Maher
being a good example). This should be their focus, as I can imagine the
holocaust victims being greatly grieved over this, the modern abandonment of
their religion, as their religion, as well as their race, is what they died for.
I can also imagine them (the holocaust victims) being touched by the free-will
offering of the Mormons. This whole thing just strikes me as another excuse to
criticize the Mormons, and it smacks of religious bigotry. Why else would
someone be offended by the proxy temple work? I would be honored, rather than
offended, if those of another faith wished to honor my deceased relatives in any
way, be it baptism, or whatever else. Religious bigotry should be something
especially offensive to Jews, who have been persecuted infinitely more than any
other religion over this issue.
josh | 9:01 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
Looks like both sides have been making good faith efforts to understand and work
with each other toward a solution. It's unfortunate that talks have broken
down, but I'm hopeful that the new family search system will provide a
permanent solution to this thorny issue. I only wish people in general, inside
and outside the LDS church would make an effort to get to know each other and
listen to each other's points of view before jumping to angry and hurtful
conclusions.
John Pack Lambert | 9:05 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
To simple fix,
The repetitive nature of names is what you are ignoring.
Another question, do we put the names of Jews who had becomes Christians and then died in the holocaust on the list?
As I said before, I think people majorly underestimate how many members of the church have Jewish ancestry.
The repetitive nature of names is what you are ignoring.
Another question, do we put the names of Jews who had becomes Christians and then died in the holocaust on the list?
As I said before, I think people majorly underestimate how many members of the church have Jewish ancestry.
Choose The Right | 9:05 a.m. Nov. 11, 2008
"How exactly are lay workers in the temple supposed to know which names are
Jewish and which ones aren't?"
Well, for that matter, which names were submitted by direct descendants and which were not? This would be a monumental task even with computers. Remember, there isn't anyone being paid to sort this out. But the work that is done is being done out of love for our brothers and sisters.
Well, for that matter, which names were submitted by direct descendants and which were not? This would be a monumental task even with computers. Remember, there isn't anyone being paid to sort this out. But the work that is done is being done out of love for our brothers and sisters.
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Elder Lance B. Wickman of the First Quorum of the Seventy with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints talks about the 1995 agreement not to submit list of names of Jewish holocaust victims to the practice of baptism for the dead.
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