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Holocaust survivors halt talks with LDS
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my 2 cents | 1:47 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
It seems like a waste of time to argue over who has the rights to baptize by
proxy for the deceased. It seems to me, the deceased person's living
relatives have more say in whether or not this happens rather than someone in
the deceased person's religion.
Pam | 1:51 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Am I wrong...I thought the Jews rejected Christ? Therefore they would not
believe in an after life. I have alot of Jewish friends in Calif,some of whom
are death camp survivors.I understand their faith and know that they might
consider this baptism as "becoming a Christian".As stated in other
comments they can still reject this if they so choose. To me the bottom line is
this, no other person,this Michel guy,has the right to say that a relative of a
holocaust victim has no right to do what they think is best.That right belongs
to the family only,not a group!
Very Presumptuous Indeed | 1:55 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
If I died, perhaps or perhaps not I'd want to join any particular church,
but the point is I'd want it to be my choice. I think it is very
presumptuous for those who shared my religion on earth to automatically assume
that I wouldn't want to change when I got up there.
Whats wrong with giving people a choice?
Whats wrong with giving people a choice?
Comments continue below
Robo | 2:01 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Unlike most who post on these comment boards, I don't know everything. All
I know is that as a member of the Church I have been told repeatedly to ONLY
submit names for people to whom I am related AND that have no living spouse or
children that would be opposed to having the ordinances performed. As far as I
know, anyone doing otherwise is in violation of what to me is well known Church
policy. With 13 million members (all who are living - contrary to popular
opinion we don't include deceased or proxy baptisms as members on our
rolls) who knows what some may be doing. I don't see why belief in a
personal God who loves His children and wants them to have all that He has is
such a disconcerting thing. And that God is no respector of persons and will
give ALL of his children every reasonable opportunity to accept the Gospel of
Jesus Christ regardless of when or where they were born, either in this life or
the next, certainly seems compassionate to me. But, to each their own.
Messianic | 2:02 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Baptism is essentially a Jewish rite that was adopted by early Christians.
Jews who reject the idea of proxy baptisms for the dead have nothing to fear from the Mormon rite.
People need more meaningful ways to connect with their dead ancestors than fighting over electronic records of their name.
Jews who reject the idea of proxy baptisms for the dead have nothing to fear from the Mormon rite.
People need more meaningful ways to connect with their dead ancestors than fighting over electronic records of their name.
But what if | 2:03 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
We are right? We are right.
Just a Thought | 2:04 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
The world is full of people who for no good reason hate the Jews, might I
suggest to the Jews, that instead of nitpicking a people who consider themselves
the friends of Jews, that they let them alone and if they want to concern
themselves,
They would be better off concerning themselves and shielding themselves from their real enemies.
They would be better off concerning themselves and shielding themselves from their real enemies.
JanSan | 2:05 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
re: Linda
Excuse me if I come across as rude (like you) I truly don't mean too. The article stated that the names would not be done unless submitted by LDS descendands. This gives the LDS people the right to follow the teaching of their church (freedom of religion).
Your comment is one of the believes in other churches that really disturb me. What about all the people in the time line of the earth that never knew of Christ - that had never heard of Christ.. Do you really think that a Loving God would submit them to not enter heaven because of something that was out of their control?
Unlike you, and some of the Jews and Catholics we want all people to have that choice blessing sence on earth is the only time it can be done. I don't get what the problem is. The freedom of choice always remains for them to accept it or reject it, but at least this way they have a choice.
It is not a matter of numbers, or I am better then you, etc etc. It is a matter of love and respect for our ancestors.
Excuse me if I come across as rude (like you) I truly don't mean too. The article stated that the names would not be done unless submitted by LDS descendands. This gives the LDS people the right to follow the teaching of their church (freedom of religion).
Your comment is one of the believes in other churches that really disturb me. What about all the people in the time line of the earth that never knew of Christ - that had never heard of Christ.. Do you really think that a Loving God would submit them to not enter heaven because of something that was out of their control?
Unlike you, and some of the Jews and Catholics we want all people to have that choice blessing sence on earth is the only time it can be done. I don't get what the problem is. The freedom of choice always remains for them to accept it or reject it, but at least this way they have a choice.
It is not a matter of numbers, or I am better then you, etc etc. It is a matter of love and respect for our ancestors.
Mormons Disgust Me | 2:06 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
My angel Moroni is bigger than your star of David. My definition of marriage is
valid and yours is not.
I'm right and you are wrong.
I'm always right.
Isn't that what this is really all about?
I'm right and you are wrong.
I'm always right.
Isn't that what this is really all about?
John Pack Lambert | 2:09 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
First off I think Radkey is wasting time. If she does not believe in baptism
for the dead, why does she waste so much energy on this issue.
Beyond this, there is far, far, far too little admission that there are hundreds if not thousands of people in the church, like myself, who have Jewish ancestors.
Our actions on behalf of our ancestors are constantly vilified.
Thirdly, the Holocaust survivors group ignores the fact that probably close to half of those killed in the Holocaust were non-Religious Jews, and others were actual converts to Christianity.
The Holocaust was a racial, not a religious, persecution, and to represent it as religious is inaccurate to the history of events. Jews were not killed in the Holocaust because of their religion, so stop reacting to the events as if it was religion that caused the killing.
Beyond this, there is far, far, far too little admission that there are hundreds if not thousands of people in the church, like myself, who have Jewish ancestors.
Our actions on behalf of our ancestors are constantly vilified.
Thirdly, the Holocaust survivors group ignores the fact that probably close to half of those killed in the Holocaust were non-Religious Jews, and others were actual converts to Christianity.
The Holocaust was a racial, not a religious, persecution, and to represent it as religious is inaccurate to the history of events. Jews were not killed in the Holocaust because of their religion, so stop reacting to the events as if it was religion that caused the killing.
Steve Glaser | 2:12 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Isn't it enough to be told that no matter how good your intentions are,
your actions are incredibly offensive? When you hear this even after you
explain yourself, if you are a decent human being, you will stop.
In response to "Does it Hurt You", who wants a reason: those that died in the Holocaust died because of their religion. Your baptism says why did you bother, since yours is a fake religion anyway. Maybe that's not what you intend but that's how you come across. Baptise me and I'll chuckle about it. Baptise my ancesters who went through fire, starvation, and poison gas for their faith and you hurt me deeply.
In response to "Does it Hurt You", who wants a reason: those that died in the Holocaust died because of their religion. Your baptism says why did you bother, since yours is a fake religion anyway. Maybe that's not what you intend but that's how you come across. Baptise me and I'll chuckle about it. Baptise my ancesters who went through fire, starvation, and poison gas for their faith and you hurt me deeply.
LOST society! | 2:13 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
After reading all of these comments - I've come to the conculsion that 90%
of you are LOST and clueless!
Baptism's for the dead are simply and importantly for the progression of one's salvation in the life hereafter. It's simple. If they don't accept what they didn't have a chance while alive, they'll stay in that state for eternity - no progression. If, however they choose to accept, they will progress.
I read too many articles here saying that it will hurt the Jews. Give me a break. It's a loving service performed and will in nowise hurt the Jews or anyone. Why are people so 'worried' about this? It's not taking any choice or agency away at all, in fact it's giving a choice/chance that wasn't presented at the time of living. No one is hurting anybody.
What are the Jews doing for their dead????
Baptism's for the dead are simply and importantly for the progression of one's salvation in the life hereafter. It's simple. If they don't accept what they didn't have a chance while alive, they'll stay in that state for eternity - no progression. If, however they choose to accept, they will progress.
I read too many articles here saying that it will hurt the Jews. Give me a break. It's a loving service performed and will in nowise hurt the Jews or anyone. Why are people so 'worried' about this? It's not taking any choice or agency away at all, in fact it's giving a choice/chance that wasn't presented at the time of living. No one is hurting anybody.
What are the Jews doing for their dead????
PWN | 2:13 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
There is no rational thought in anything as irrational as religion
observer | 2:15 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
I always thought once you were dead your problems were over.
Re: Anonymous | 2:16 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
People baptized by proxy are not counted in the total of LDS members. There is
no way, anyway, of knowing if they accept this work or not (according to the
LDS), or if it is even worth anything at all (according to non-LDS).
Having said that - the LDS Church needs to keep its word to the Jewish people, and not submit lists of people from concentration camps, or from Jewish communities, etc.
What individual people do about their own Jewish ancestors, the LDS Church probably cannot control.
Having said that - the LDS Church needs to keep its word to the Jewish people, and not submit lists of people from concentration camps, or from Jewish communities, etc.
What individual people do about their own Jewish ancestors, the LDS Church probably cannot control.
John Pack Lambert | 2:18 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Along the 12:29 posters line of thought,
First off, the methods of accepting name submissions are open. In fact, submitting names for temple work is not even limited to church members.
Beyond this there are millions of members and very little supervision of submissions. The members are encoraged to only submit the names of relatives, however there are different theories on how close. My father regularly will submit the names of anyone who is a grandchild of any of his ancestors. With this broad scale submission policy it is easy to submit a whole group of homocaust victims.
As I have said many times, there are way more church members of Jewish descent than anyone is willing to admit.
First off, the methods of accepting name submissions are open. In fact, submitting names for temple work is not even limited to church members.
Beyond this there are millions of members and very little supervision of submissions. The members are encoraged to only submit the names of relatives, however there are different theories on how close. My father regularly will submit the names of anyone who is a grandchild of any of his ancestors. With this broad scale submission policy it is easy to submit a whole group of homocaust victims.
As I have said many times, there are way more church members of Jewish descent than anyone is willing to admit.
elisa | 2:18 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
I am LDS and believe strongly in Baptism for the Dead. Anyone who believes in
the Atonement of Jesus Christ for the Sins of the World(all of us) actually
believes in vicarious or proxy work.
That said, the Jewish people have endured thousands of years of torture and prejudice at the hands of "Christians", anyone heard of the crusades? Jews were given a choice of Baptism or death. Jews have preserved their culture and religion through all of this and the emotional impact of Christian baptism on their ancestors is huge.
The fact that they don't believe it has any actual effect doesn't matter. That we believe it is the issue and the crux of the argument.
That said, the Jewish people have endured thousands of years of torture and prejudice at the hands of "Christians", anyone heard of the crusades? Jews were given a choice of Baptism or death. Jews have preserved their culture and religion through all of this and the emotional impact of Christian baptism on their ancestors is huge.
The fact that they don't believe it has any actual effect doesn't matter. That we believe it is the issue and the crux of the argument.
true blue | 2:23 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
I'm sure submission of names isn't policed very well. Maybe the
church should monitor better. However, if a direct relative submits the name
that should be their choice.
Remember the church has a million satelite geneaology centers, so I'm sure that names that shouldn't be submitted get submitted
Remember the church has a million satelite geneaology centers, so I'm sure that names that shouldn't be submitted get submitted
Levi | 2:34 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
The LDS Church needs to realize that Christian baptism is anathema to the Jewish
religion. The Holocost victims obviously cannot speak for themselves so their
survivors must defend them. It is disingenuous for Mr. Otterson to speak of the
Jewish religion going contray to agreement. Let's stop bickering and
baptizing and let God sort it out.
Utah Dem | 2:38 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Please also remember that Jews were not the only victims of the holocaust -
Hitler and his regime also went after homosexuals, Urkainians, Hungarians,
whomever he thought that was making his race impure.
If Catholics don't believe the LDS baptism ordinance has any validity why are they afraid to let the Mormons have their genealogical documents?
If Jews are offended by LDS baptism for the dead, than how to they reconcile the scriptures in the Old Testament?
If Catholics don't believe the LDS baptism ordinance has any validity why are they afraid to let the Mormons have their genealogical documents?
If Jews are offended by LDS baptism for the dead, than how to they reconcile the scriptures in the Old Testament?
Baptism adds to Jewishness | 2:44 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Actually one can't be a true Jew unless they accept their own Messiah, so
being baptised doesn't take away Jewishness, it actually makes one more of
a Jew.
attitudes show | 2:44 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Reading responses from LDS faithful tends to demonstrate the attitudes of LDS
members. Rather than focus on breaking an agreement and give an apology for
that, LDS members focus on "why" it's ok to perform the baptisms.
Respect for other's beliefs, no matter how much they differ from your own
is a foundation for freedom of religion. You are offended when temple rituals or
garments other faiths don't believe in are mocked yet feel it's ok to
perform unwanted rituals on something so personal as the ancestors of those in
other's faiths? Nothing could be more personal than family members who
have passed on. Whether you feel it's offensive or ok isn't the point.
It's whether other not other faiths feel it's offensive. Above all,
you should respect agreements that you have made, not excuse breaking them. If
you want tolerance then show tolerance. Show respect. Just because you believe
you have a mandate from God doesn't mean others think you do. All
religions believe they have the same mandate, you aren't special that way.
Stop excusing yourself for offending others and start understanding. A simple
apology for breaking an agreement should suffice. Your own leaders made it.
Kuuhu Qoosta | 2:48 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
The article says that names were 'dumped' into the records. This
implies that there was an attempt to by pass the Church's controls. The
article makes no attempt to clarify what is being done to investigate how and
why the names were submitted. Is a 'member' attempting to embarrass
us. When someone had Hitler baptized it just became fuel for anti-Mormons.
re Levi | 2:34 p.m. | 2:49 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
"The LDS Church needs to realize that Christian baptism is anathema to the
Jewish religion. The Holocost victims obviously cannot speak for themselves so
their survivors must defend them".
Levi, if they can't speak for themselves then how is it that you know what they want? If we can't know what they want, doesn't it make sense then to give them a choice?
You do believe in choice and freedom of religion don't you?
Levi, if they can't speak for themselves then how is it that you know what they want? If we can't know what they want, doesn't it make sense then to give them a choice?
You do believe in choice and freedom of religion don't you?
What the Heck | 2:50 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
If the Jews and the Catholics want to do some kind of saving ordinance for me.
More power to them. If I am wrong and they are right, they have increased my
chances.
Frank | 2:55 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
re: Proxy baptism IS how God sorts it out.
But I'm starting to see as elisa | 2:18 p.m. posted how the image of baptism really changes meaning when you talk about the Jewish faith. It doesnt seem to matter whether or not the halocaust was a religious issue or a genetic issue in the Nazi's eyes. Regardless Judism has had a complicated historical connection to baptism, which understandably puts their reaction into perspective.
But I'm starting to see as elisa | 2:18 p.m. posted how the image of baptism really changes meaning when you talk about the Jewish faith. It doesnt seem to matter whether or not the halocaust was a religious issue or a genetic issue in the Nazi's eyes. Regardless Judism has had a complicated historical connection to baptism, which understandably puts their reaction into perspective.
IMAN | 2:55 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
The LDS church is the apex of arrogance.
Anonymous | 2:55 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Let's make this simple. No Jew on earth believes in the afterlife the way
Mormons do. We know that there is absolutely nothing to baptism-by-proxy.
It's a big waste of breath.
What most non-Mormons DO worry about is the arrogance of Mormons to get involved in other religions. We don't want you to join our team, so stop trying to recruit us to yours.
What most non-Mormons DO worry about is the arrogance of Mormons to get involved in other religions. We don't want you to join our team, so stop trying to recruit us to yours.
re attitudes show | 2:44 p.m. | 2:56 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
What makes you think everyone speaking in this form is either a mormon or a jew?
As one standing on the sidelines, I think it is a waste of time for jews to
worry about this, and nitpick people who consider themselves to be the jews
friends.
I also wonder how the jews down here can be so certain that the jews up there are offended, most likely they are busy living life and don't even care.
What the jews don't have enough problems that you have to worry about how many angels are dancing on the head of a pin?
I also wonder how the jews down here can be so certain that the jews up there are offended, most likely they are busy living life and don't even care.
What the jews don't have enough problems that you have to worry about how many angels are dancing on the head of a pin?
re to re:confused 1:44 pm | 2:57 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
In response to Re: Confused | 1:44 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
What they want and what was agreed on by both parties are two different things and it seems the original agreement they and the LDS church struck provided that it was ok for living descentdents of the victims to submit the name. It's the violation of that agreement that is in question here, not what both parties "want."
In response to the question about how 6 million holocaust victims can be cross referenced, I would say it's easily accomplished in today's world of computers. I could easily build a database myself that cross references another database and run it on my laptop. Sure it would run a bit slow but the capacity is there and the church computer capacity and speed certainly is much more than that of a laptop.
What they want and what was agreed on by both parties are two different things and it seems the original agreement they and the LDS church struck provided that it was ok for living descentdents of the victims to submit the name. It's the violation of that agreement that is in question here, not what both parties "want."
In response to the question about how 6 million holocaust victims can be cross referenced, I would say it's easily accomplished in today's world of computers. I could easily build a database myself that cross references another database and run it on my laptop. Sure it would run a bit slow but the capacity is there and the church computer capacity and speed certainly is much more than that of a laptop.
Re: Attitudes show | 3:01 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
I am an "LDS faithful" and believe the Church should do all it can to
honor the agreement made with the Jewish people. If it is shown that the Church
has knowingly being submitting long lists of deceased Jewish people, especially
from death camps, then the Church does owe an apology to the Jewish people.
If individual LDS people are doing other than what they have been told to do - i.e. to submit ONLY their own relatives - then they are not being respectful of their own Church as well as to other religions.
That is this LDS faithful's attitude and opinion!
If individual LDS people are doing other than what they have been told to do - i.e. to submit ONLY their own relatives - then they are not being respectful of their own Church as well as to other religions.
That is this LDS faithful's attitude and opinion!
i had to laugh | 3:06 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
someone made a comment about the church's ability to screen holocaust names
that might be submitted. When I look up an ancestor and see that they have been
baptised 4 times posthumously and know that they received their own baptism
while alive, married in the temple, and died at a ripe old age, still active in
the church, I know what type of controls the church has on its records.
MOJ | 3:07 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
So the agreement was that people should not be added to the database unless they
are submitted by their own descendants. Then the Church repeatedly asks members
to follow the new policy, but lists of names are ultimately added back onto the
list and people accuse the Church of violating the agreement.
It seems that a crucial piece of missing information is WHO added the names. Aren't the submitters' names included in the database?
The assumption that the Church (rather than individuals) added the names seems unreasonable, given that the database is open to the public. If I'm going to do something behind your back, why on earth would I give you access to the database???
It seems that a crucial piece of missing information is WHO added the names. Aren't the submitters' names included in the database?
The assumption that the Church (rather than individuals) added the names seems unreasonable, given that the database is open to the public. If I'm going to do something behind your back, why on earth would I give you access to the database???
My Logic | 3:15 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Practically every religion there is says that one must belong to their religion
or you will go to hell or at least won't go to heaven.
Given this, wouldn't it be nice if one could hedge their bets and belong to All religions, just in case you guess wrong?
That being the case, doesn't it make sense for people to be glad the LDS are offering their credentials to all those who didn't get them in this life?
I just the evengelicals and others would do the same, someone from another religion once told me that if I didn't join up with them, I would burn in hell f-o-r-e-v-e-r. I was almost scared into it, seems to me the mormons are offering a pretty good deal.
My advice, take the deal, who knows, they might be the right ones, and if not, who cares?
Given this, wouldn't it be nice if one could hedge their bets and belong to All religions, just in case you guess wrong?
That being the case, doesn't it make sense for people to be glad the LDS are offering their credentials to all those who didn't get them in this life?
I just the evengelicals and others would do the same, someone from another religion once told me that if I didn't join up with them, I would burn in hell f-o-r-e-v-e-r. I was almost scared into it, seems to me the mormons are offering a pretty good deal.
My advice, take the deal, who knows, they might be the right ones, and if not, who cares?
Anonymous | 3:24 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Based on the timing of the announcement, sounds more like a publicity grab for
this particular Jewish organization more than anything else. Worries about
causing more "pain" to Jews who suffered the Holocaust is nonsense.
Read the Old Testament and see why Israel was scattered in the first place -
does this display of pride look familiar? There is no way vicarious work for
the dead is going to hurt the deceased, either in this life or the next. If
what we're doing is a time waster, then let it be our time waster. I know
of no other major religion who has even attempted to turn the hearts of the
children to their fathers!
Fredd | 3:28 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Okay, listen, I'll type slowly. Nazi Gremany passed laws discriminating
against jews first politically, then against property rights, finally leading to
mass murder. There were exceptions for the jews. if they REJECTED their faith
and became Christian before the laws went into effect they could be exempt from
the trains heading east. So these people died rather then reject their faith,
as many other Jews have done over the centuries. So don't act like they
didn't have the chance to acept the gospel according to Joseph Smith. They
died for their faith. You have no right, even as a direct descendant, to
baptise them into your faith after what they went through. It is disrespectful
to their memory.
Cambodian Girl | 3:37 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
To the observer who said "I thought after you died your problems were
over." Thank you, that made me laugh. The deceased are on to bigger and
better things.
We are all children of the same God. As a parent, like our Heavenly Father, I want to give my children as many opportunities as I can so that they can progress. That�s why families are so important. Being in a family, especially as a parent, opens our vision to how our Heavenly Father feels about his children.
He doesn�t want his children fighting.
Honestly, Satan keeps rearing his ugly head to divide the children of the family of God.
We are all children of the same God. As a parent, like our Heavenly Father, I want to give my children as many opportunities as I can so that they can progress. That�s why families are so important. Being in a family, especially as a parent, opens our vision to how our Heavenly Father feels about his children.
He doesn�t want his children fighting.
Honestly, Satan keeps rearing his ugly head to divide the children of the family of God.
RE: Anonymous | 3:40 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
My ancestors were Jews held by the Nazi's. How dare you or anyone else
demand to withhold ordinaces I hold sacred from my family. You may place demands
for you own - and debate the issue in your own family. But leave my loved ones
alone.
Ridiculuous | 3:57 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
1) The "church" haters will continue - so ignoring you all is the best
play
2) The "church" is a great organization - what other organization would attempt to placate the jewish folks, even when the bulk of the members probably think it's a silly thing to be concerned about
3) Please please leave the church if you can't handle the doctrine - but QUIT WHINING!
2) The "church" is a great organization - what other organization would attempt to placate the jewish folks, even when the bulk of the members probably think it's a silly thing to be concerned about
3) Please please leave the church if you can't handle the doctrine - but QUIT WHINING!
realitycheck | 3:58 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
I'm reading this article, and all I can think is - who do you people think
you are?
I am not jewish, nor mormon - but STEALING from dead people is about as sad as a religion can get.
You are STEALING these dead people's right to be as they are. How could you possibly think that is ok?
It would be like a voodoo priest trying to resurect your ancestor. Would you like that?
I can't even believe you would do this. It's sick.
Again - for emphasis - all you mormons out there - tell your church leaders - THEY ARE STEALING FROM THE DEAD.
You think you're holy - yet prey on the helpless. And none are more helpless than the deceased.
The only words I can come up with at this point are SICK and CRUEL. Hopefully a Santeria priest will repay the favor...
I am not jewish, nor mormon - but STEALING from dead people is about as sad as a religion can get.
You are STEALING these dead people's right to be as they are. How could you possibly think that is ok?
It would be like a voodoo priest trying to resurect your ancestor. Would you like that?
I can't even believe you would do this. It's sick.
Again - for emphasis - all you mormons out there - tell your church leaders - THEY ARE STEALING FROM THE DEAD.
You think you're holy - yet prey on the helpless. And none are more helpless than the deceased.
The only words I can come up with at this point are SICK and CRUEL. Hopefully a Santeria priest will repay the favor...
Topher | 4:01 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
I think it very odd that Mormons think they can communicate with the dead. Does Dionne Warwick do all of you communicating with the dead for you or does Miss Cleo handle it. For a nominal fee can one send a message back to the dead? How much per minute will this cost?
Why not the Catholics? | 4:03 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
The Catholic church has 1 billion followers. They pray for the dead in the
belief and hope that it will improve their lot in the afterlife. The Catholic
church has changed its doctrine about what happens to Jews in the afterlife in
recent years. First they were definitely not going to heaven, then
"good" Jews could go to Purgatory, then recently, though it is
difficult to interpret, they eliminated Purgatury from their doctrine.
Regardless, throughout the years many Catholic prayers have been offered in
behalf of deceased Jews. The difference is that they don't keep a written,
published record of their prayers. Why don't Jews make a formal request to
the Pope that no Catholic prayer will be offered for dead Jews in the hopes that
they may have a better deal in the afterlife? Why pick on perhaps 14 million
Mormons instead of the billion Catholics? Is it just because the Mormons record
their baptismal prayers?
Chosen People? | 4:12 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
What are the Jews doing to see that the Christians get a better deal in the
afterlife? Some of the few practicing Jews must believe that there are some
advantages that will be conferred on them by having been born and practiced
Judaism. They certainly don't make any effort to proselytize in order to
offer what they have to others. That's strange! Why is that? I think this
may be a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Just what is it that Jewish
doctrine specifies will happen to Evangelicals, Catholics, and Mormons?
Anonymous | 4:14 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Mormons baptizing Jews into the fold.
I'm still getting over the "Lost Tribe of Israel" thing.
LOL!
I'm still getting over the "Lost Tribe of Israel" thing.
LOL!
Aaron | 4:20 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
The Jews used to practice this ordinance 2000 years ago and up to 500 a.d. They
need to study history.
can't tell | 4:21 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Assuming the church agrees not to baptize Holocaust victims, or even Jews, how
exactly are lay workers in the temple supposed to know which names are Jewish
and which ones aren't? This is much ado about nothing, especially if one
doesn't even believe in the legitimacy of the LDS temple ordinances.
Anom | 4:33 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
The practice of proxy baptisms for the dead has dare I say it gone on for
1000's of years and arguably started by the House of Israel and continued
on during the time of the Savior's Ministry. The apostle Paul also talked
about. Proxy Baptisms are not new. Anyone who is a student of the Old Testament
would know this. People also have their free agency in the spirit world. Work
done for them can be rejected by them.
To: realitycheck | 4:36 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Perhaps rather than just yell back and forth a simple explanation of the belief
behind the practice might help - recognizing you may believe none of this is OK
- but it may help to understand what the LDS doctrine is.
1) We believe humans have a spirit which continues on after the body dies. Our spirits continue to be able to think and make decisions and have the agency to make choices.
2) Once the spirit moves on to the 'next life' we believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ will continue to be taught.
3) The individual spirits will have a chance to accept or reject the gospel.
4) If accepted, in order for salvation for that spirit, an earthly ordinance, baptism, must be done. However, since they no longer have a body, it must be done on their behalf by proxy.
5) Since we have no way of knowing those who accept and those who reject, the ordinance is done for all our ancestors whose names we can verify.
6) If the spirit person rejects, the ordinance has no effect - hopefully you can see no harm.
I will ansewr your question about voodoo priest next post.
1) We believe humans have a spirit which continues on after the body dies. Our spirits continue to be able to think and make decisions and have the agency to make choices.
2) Once the spirit moves on to the 'next life' we believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ will continue to be taught.
3) The individual spirits will have a chance to accept or reject the gospel.
4) If accepted, in order for salvation for that spirit, an earthly ordinance, baptism, must be done. However, since they no longer have a body, it must be done on their behalf by proxy.
5) Since we have no way of knowing those who accept and those who reject, the ordinance is done for all our ancestors whose names we can verify.
6) If the spirit person rejects, the ordinance has no effect - hopefully you can see no harm.
I will ansewr your question about voodoo priest next post.
To: Ridiculous - Part 2 | 4:41 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Apologies for the typing error.
To answer the voodoo priest question: Since I personally do not believe in voodoo, I would have no problem if a voodoo priest tried to resurrect my ancestor. I respect a voodoo person's belief system.
Even though many (or all) of the beliefs of the LDS people may seem odd, strange, or unbelievable - hopefully it helps if you understand where we are coming from.
To imply that performing baptisms on behalf of the dead is somehow filled with malicious intent is simply wrong.
To answer the voodoo priest question: Since I personally do not believe in voodoo, I would have no problem if a voodoo priest tried to resurrect my ancestor. I respect a voodoo person's belief system.
Even though many (or all) of the beliefs of the LDS people may seem odd, strange, or unbelievable - hopefully it helps if you understand where we are coming from.
To imply that performing baptisms on behalf of the dead is somehow filled with malicious intent is simply wrong.
A Review of the Article | 4:41 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
If you read the article carefully you see that the agreement was that the church
would not add names but individuals who had ancestors who were victims could
continue to submit names. The expert and the group forgot to focus on that key
clause in the agreement.
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Elder Lance B. Wickman of the First Quorum of the Seventy with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints talks about the 1995 agreement not to submit list of names of Jewish holocaust victims to the practice of baptism for the dead.
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