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Readers' forum: Church critics are offensive
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Losing focus | 10:08 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
The fact is, hundreds of thousands of Californians voted on this bill and 98% of
them weren't Mormons. All this Mormon-bashing is ridiculous and misguided.
The majority of Americans (similar propositions passed in Arizona and Florida)
would vote down gay marrige, and we all know Mormons are a very very small
percentage of Americans. Cease and desist, gays.
Richard Sherlock | 10:42 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Lisa,
I am a professor of Philosophy at USU with 3 degrees from Harvard. Don't be ashamed. I am very active LDS too. Those who support gay marriage are uninformed, unintelligent, and profoundly wrong. They let their hormones do their thinking. Do they think that the civil rights movement was wrong because it was led by Christian ministers. Of course not. When the political system wouldn't budge ministers did. Do they think that the anti-slavery movement was bad because it was led by christians and did tell others how to live. Of course not. What they must is that gay marriage is good. They cannot say it is good because it is desired by both parties because this will justify polygamy, pedophila, and even beastiality. What they must show is that once you separate sexual intimacy and marriage from a reproductive nexus you can avoid these other cases. They can't. Gay marriage is not the equal of straight marriage because we know that two parent, heterosexual families is the best way to raise children ever known and well adjusted, healthy childre are a necessity if our society is to survive The data on this is overwhelming .
I am a professor of Philosophy at USU with 3 degrees from Harvard. Don't be ashamed. I am very active LDS too. Those who support gay marriage are uninformed, unintelligent, and profoundly wrong. They let their hormones do their thinking. Do they think that the civil rights movement was wrong because it was led by Christian ministers. Of course not. When the political system wouldn't budge ministers did. Do they think that the anti-slavery movement was bad because it was led by christians and did tell others how to live. Of course not. What they must is that gay marriage is good. They cannot say it is good because it is desired by both parties because this will justify polygamy, pedophila, and even beastiality. What they must show is that once you separate sexual intimacy and marriage from a reproductive nexus you can avoid these other cases. They can't. Gay marriage is not the equal of straight marriage because we know that two parent, heterosexual families is the best way to raise children ever known and well adjusted, healthy childre are a necessity if our society is to survive The data on this is overwhelming .
Comments continue below
Constitution | 10:48 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
To Jason and others that mention this: tell me where in the Constitution that
it talks about "separation of church and state" because it isn't
in there. The only mention of religion is that Congress won't establish a
state religion and won't prohibit the free exercise of religion. SO,
please educate yourself before you start assuming what the law is
jackhp | 10:57 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Mike,
You are the last person who deserves to lecture anyone about getting off a soapbox. Your hypocrisy is on grand display today.
You are the last person who deserves to lecture anyone about getting off a soapbox. Your hypocrisy is on grand display today.
jackhp | 11:02 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
MEB,
Your straw man arguments have been dealt with many times on these threads. I feel it unnecessary to dive into them again.
That being said, Californians most certainly DID have the right to marry a person of the same gender and it WAS supported by the California State Constitution. Please google and read the CA Supreme Court decision "In re Marriage Cases" before making any more unsubstantiated, blatantly false claims about things you do not know.
Your straw man arguments have been dealt with many times on these threads. I feel it unnecessary to dive into them again.
That being said, Californians most certainly DID have the right to marry a person of the same gender and it WAS supported by the California State Constitution. Please google and read the CA Supreme Court decision "In re Marriage Cases" before making any more unsubstantiated, blatantly false claims about things you do not know.
richard Sherlock | 11:32 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
I am not hearing an argument yet. Notice I did not say that gay marriage was
wrong because and only because my church says so and my church has not made this
argument only on revealed ground I have made a rational argument answer it
mark | 1:17 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
Anon, what in the world are you talking about?
Mike, you know, gosh I don't even know what to say to you. How bout this.
When it comes to religion, just because you say it, Mike, that does not make it necessarily true. You say these things about religion like they are proven fact and not just your personal believes. Well Mike, does it ever occur to you that others might disagree with you and when it comes to the unprovable their opinion is 100% as valid as yours.
That probably never crossed your mind did it?
Mike, you know, gosh I don't even know what to say to you. How bout this.
When it comes to religion, just because you say it, Mike, that does not make it necessarily true. You say these things about religion like they are proven fact and not just your personal believes. Well Mike, does it ever occur to you that others might disagree with you and when it comes to the unprovable their opinion is 100% as valid as yours.
That probably never crossed your mind did it?
Marcel | 4:49 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
Hey, back in 1947 the church came out against interracial marriage. Imagine
that! And now we have our first President with black and white parents. I wonder
what the church leader's position will be in another 50 years when we have
our first gay first lady or man.
It's sad that church revelation seems to lag the broader culture by about a half century on just about every major issue.
It's sad that church revelation seems to lag the broader culture by about a half century on just about every major issue.
mark | 11:08 a.m. Nov. 9, 2008
Man, I hope you make better arguments in your books, Sherlock.
See, the thing is you have not made any rational arguments. At all.
Imagine thinking gay marriage would justify pedophilia and bestiality. It's all about consenting adults, professor.
Your other arguments have already been addressed on this board.
In fact, I don't think you really are Richard Sherlock, I would think that someone with your credentials would make a more intriguing argument.
As well as being able to spell and write.
I think an impostor has stolen your name, professor.
See, the thing is you have not made any rational arguments. At all.
Imagine thinking gay marriage would justify pedophilia and bestiality. It's all about consenting adults, professor.
Your other arguments have already been addressed on this board.
In fact, I don't think you really are Richard Sherlock, I would think that someone with your credentials would make a more intriguing argument.
As well as being able to spell and write.
I think an impostor has stolen your name, professor.
RE:FRED | 5:10 p.m. Nov. 9, 2008
NO one is forcing their doctrine on you.
Face it, One side was just better at convincing the majority that their view was the correct one.
And no matter whether you live in a democracy or a republic, majority rules.
Face it, One side was just better at convincing the majority that their view was the correct one.
And no matter whether you live in a democracy or a republic, majority rules.
True Colors | 12:14 a.m. Nov. 10, 2008
The gay-rights lobby has revealed its true colors. Unwilling to abide by the
democratic process, it seeks to enforce its will by pressure, intimidation, and
even acts of "hate speech." What kind of sad irony is that?
I have gay friends and relatives I respect--but I don't have the slightest bit of respect for how the gay-rights lobby has responded to this issue. You people need to know how you're acting is childish and petty at best--and illegal and inhumane at near-worst.
I can't imagine that these protests and acts of hostility are winning the gay lobby very many friends and much sympathy. But they are betraying this special-interest group as a shameless mob who isn't afraid to harass others in order to get its way. And you people honestly expect others to respect you when you demand tolerance and civility for your own views and position?
Maybe people who want hate-crime legislation and more "rights" and tolerance for themselves should be less prone to words and acts of hatred, more respectful of others' rights, and more tolerant of what others think and believe. How pitiful and pathetic.
I have gay friends and relatives I respect--but I don't have the slightest bit of respect for how the gay-rights lobby has responded to this issue. You people need to know how you're acting is childish and petty at best--and illegal and inhumane at near-worst.
I can't imagine that these protests and acts of hostility are winning the gay lobby very many friends and much sympathy. But they are betraying this special-interest group as a shameless mob who isn't afraid to harass others in order to get its way. And you people honestly expect others to respect you when you demand tolerance and civility for your own views and position?
Maybe people who want hate-crime legislation and more "rights" and tolerance for themselves should be less prone to words and acts of hatred, more respectful of others' rights, and more tolerant of what others think and believe. How pitiful and pathetic.
To Lisa | 7:42 a.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Amen and amen to all you said...I applaud your bravery in standing up for what
is right and voicing your beliefs, fully knowing the hatemongers/gays/lesbians
will rip you to shreds. It is so ridiculous all the whining that goes on because
their right to sin is legally and lawfully taken away. When will they ever get
it-God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. The Church and God will never
back down from doing what is right. Again, kudos to you!
Phantom | 7:46 a.m. Nov. 10, 2008
and other lds haters...why do you read a newspaper that is put out by our
Church? I thin deep down, you must believe it also, or why would you read it?
That simply doesn't hold out any logic whatsoever.
Anonymous | 8:58 a.m. Nov. 10, 2008
The Lord's command is that sex before marriage is a sin; sex between two of
the same gender is also a sin, whether or not they are "married." Why
do homosexuals believe they should get a free pass to sin? They are to use self
control in sexual passions the same as unmarried heterosexuals. Suck it up and
quit whining...they are not some special group.
Deception | 2:09 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Lisa Barnes would have nothing to be upset over unless there was something wrong
with her and her Church's doctrine and actions regarding Proposition 8.
The fact that you are so upset just shows you are trying to cover your guilty conscience. Deep down, every single Mormon KNOWS that Proposition 8 is wrong! You get upset because you are trying to justify and rationalize your unChristian, immoral behavior towards gays!
What a tangled we we weave when we practice to deceive by passing laws that set us up as morally superior than other human beings!
The fact that you are so upset just shows you are trying to cover your guilty conscience. Deep down, every single Mormon KNOWS that Proposition 8 is wrong! You get upset because you are trying to justify and rationalize your unChristian, immoral behavior towards gays!
What a tangled we we weave when we practice to deceive by passing laws that set us up as morally superior than other human beings!
Gisele | 12:27 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Over and over and OVER on these Prop 8-related comments, I have seen supporters
of prop 8 proclaiming that there is nothing in the Constitution that separates
church from state--like it is their right to allow their dogma to dictate the
government's actions. I will enlighten you. If there was no separation of
church and state, the STATE would be dictating YOUR beliefs. NOT vice versa.
Be careful what you wish for.
Pardon Me But | 8:29 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
You Mormon really thrive on and enjoy your persecution complex don't you?
Ammon | 11:22 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
I am reminded of what the Savior of the world said in John 7:7--"The world
cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works
thereof are evil." I stand with Christ, if the world gets more evil and
more accepting of evil then the more it hates that which stands for right based
on principle. For all you members who feel threatened by all this slandering,
remember that to stand with God is to never stand alone. All will be well.
Remember that Satan builds his kingdom to directly oppose the Lord's kingdom, the more temples and members that join there will be greater opposition from the world who hates what Jesus Christ teaches.
Remember that Satan builds his kingdom to directly oppose the Lord's kingdom, the more temples and members that join there will be greater opposition from the world who hates what Jesus Christ teaches.
Our Form of Gov't | 11:22 a.m. Nov. 12, 2008
There is always those making the point that the California State Supreme Court
should have listened to the "will of the people" when it made its
decision allowing gay marriage to be legal.
One thing this proves is that much of the citizenry is ill informed about the purpose of the judicial system. One of the reasons it was made a separate branch was to specifically insulate it from the whims of the electorate. It is not, and never has been, the job of justices to base their decisions upon what a majority of the people want. It is their job to protect the minority from the will of the majority when the majority favors abrogating the constitutional rights of the minority.
Everyone is free to disagree with the arguments that their decisions are based upon - but, please don't try to make the point that they should be paying attention to how the people vote on an issue.
One thing this proves is that much of the citizenry is ill informed about the purpose of the judicial system. One of the reasons it was made a separate branch was to specifically insulate it from the whims of the electorate. It is not, and never has been, the job of justices to base their decisions upon what a majority of the people want. It is their job to protect the minority from the will of the majority when the majority favors abrogating the constitutional rights of the minority.
Everyone is free to disagree with the arguments that their decisions are based upon - but, please don't try to make the point that they should be paying attention to how the people vote on an issue.
C. Cook | 12:12 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
To all those who support same sex marriage. If it is truly natural and normal,
would it not have been approved centuries ago? Even in civiliazations were it
homosecualty was practiced, i.e. Sparta, Greece and others, they were never
allowed to marry. Also, were do we draw the line on morals. There are those
out there who way sex whith minors, expecialy childern is natural and normal.
What about them? I have nothing against them, but there are somethings that are
right or wrong, no matter how we feel.
re: fred | 1:10 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
"Let me get this straight, the LDS church mobilizes it's forces to
raise 20+ million to push a gay marriage ban in CA, but it is offensive that
people protest the church's actions?"
Fred, it's worse than that. Their publicly stated position is that they can't even understand the protests. And the 20+ is much higher than 20. I've looked at the list of donors and I could identify a number who are still not noted as LDS.
Fred, it's worse than that. Their publicly stated position is that they can't even understand the protests. And the 20+ is much higher than 20. I've looked at the list of donors and I could identify a number who are still not noted as LDS.
Robo | 1:33 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Just a few thoughts.
1 - Jesus is NOT tolerant. "Go and sin no more!" "Scribes, pharisees, hypocrites!" "I will separate the sheep on the right and goats on the left!" "I know you not!" He is forever forgiving of those who seek His Grace, but not tolerant.
2 - A total of 30 states have such an amendment, to protest only Utah and specifically Mormons is highly selective and therefore comes off as persecution.
3 - I and the Church have as much right to participate in the political process as anybody else. I never hear any complaints about the black churches holding political rallies for liberal Democrat candidates.
4 - If society can't force its morality down others throats to enact legislation, then why not polygamy?
1 - Jesus is NOT tolerant. "Go and sin no more!" "Scribes, pharisees, hypocrites!" "I will separate the sheep on the right and goats on the left!" "I know you not!" He is forever forgiving of those who seek His Grace, but not tolerant.
2 - A total of 30 states have such an amendment, to protest only Utah and specifically Mormons is highly selective and therefore comes off as persecution.
3 - I and the Church have as much right to participate in the political process as anybody else. I never hear any complaints about the black churches holding political rallies for liberal Democrat candidates.
4 - If society can't force its morality down others throats to enact legislation, then why not polygamy?
Alice | 4:32 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
You, a Mormon, DARE to accuse others of behaving like Pharisees?
Rarely am I struck speechless.
Rarely am I struck speechless.
John Pack Lambert | 4:35 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
To Kevin,
None of these issues were effected by Proposition 8. The Defence of Marriage Act defines marriage as between a man and a woman for ALL federal purposes. These are federal issues, so they do not have any relevance to Proposition 8.
None of these issues were effected by Proposition 8. The Defence of Marriage Act defines marriage as between a man and a woman for ALL federal purposes. These are federal issues, so they do not have any relevance to Proposition 8.
Paul | 5:10 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
Yep, if gay marriage ever was passed, society would be in a terrible state, this
righteous lady writing in is correct, I am sick of gay rights activists going on
and on over proposition 8, we live in a democracy and that same system was used
to ban gay marriage.
re: lambert | 5:28 p.m. Nov. 12, 2008
"None of these issues were effected by Proposition 8. The Defence of
Marriage Act defines marriage as between a man and a woman for ALL federal
purposes. These are federal issues, so they do not have any relevance to
Proposition 8."
Prop 8 was a social stepping stone to federal changes.
Prop 8 was a social stepping stone to federal changes.
jann | 12:42 a.m. Nov. 13, 2008
the voters of ca have spoken isnt that good enough?
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Churches do not jeapardize their 501(c)3 tax exempt status when they take a political stand on a moral issue. They have every right to do so. The LDS Church did not contribute $20 million to the Prop. 8 battle, it merely encouraged its members to contribute and they willingly did it. There is nothing illegal about that. Our tithing funds are safe.