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Readers' forum: Church critics are offensive
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Kevin | 12:01 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
MK OK do your homework before you spew your tired arguments. There are over 1000
rights that married couples receive under the law that aren't given to
civil unions.
To say that gays are receiving the same benefits as married couples under the law is just one of the many lies that was spread from prop 8 proponents throughout the prop 8 campaign.
To say that gays are receiving the same benefits as married couples under the law is just one of the many lies that was spread from prop 8 proponents throughout the prop 8 campaign.
Mike Richards | 12:01 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Examples of "hate speech":
Jackhp @1:45" "When it comes to tolerating you, you're right, I won't tolerate YOU forcing YOUR beliefs upon ME (and I won't apologize for it either)."
Jason @ 5:34: "HYPOCRITES!!!!!!!!!! We are not going to take this lying down."
Jason @ 5:37: "Don't tell us not to be angry, you have taken our rights away and spat upon the constitution! Again, you reap what you sow. The day of retribution is at hand."
Anonymous @ 8:26: "The church has done something offensive, and you've no right to think the people it affected would be anything but offensively unhappy about it."
Jackhp @1:45" "When it comes to tolerating you, you're right, I won't tolerate YOU forcing YOUR beliefs upon ME (and I won't apologize for it either)."
Jason @ 5:34: "HYPOCRITES!!!!!!!!!! We are not going to take this lying down."
Jason @ 5:37: "Don't tell us not to be angry, you have taken our rights away and spat upon the constitution! Again, you reap what you sow. The day of retribution is at hand."
Anonymous @ 8:26: "The church has done something offensive, and you've no right to think the people it affected would be anything but offensively unhappy about it."
Comments continue below
Darin | 12:04 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Lisa,
We do not dislike you. Believe me, we love and accept you. I have several bothers who are active LDS, and they have been active LDS all their lives (they always knew). While I do not agree with their lifestyles, I still love and accept them. I love their life partners and their children, too. This is why I am tired of being called an intolerant bigot. But I do stand by my heart and my principles: Religion is a destructive force in our society, and it is best contained by standing up for what is morally right. The religious agenda is fundamentally wrong and harmful to society. Still, I can only love my brothers, despite their flawed ways.
We do not dislike you. Believe me, we love and accept you. I have several bothers who are active LDS, and they have been active LDS all their lives (they always knew). While I do not agree with their lifestyles, I still love and accept them. I love their life partners and their children, too. This is why I am tired of being called an intolerant bigot. But I do stand by my heart and my principles: Religion is a destructive force in our society, and it is best contained by standing up for what is morally right. The religious agenda is fundamentally wrong and harmful to society. Still, I can only love my brothers, despite their flawed ways.
jakchp | 12:15 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
bilbo,
LOL, calm down friend. Apparently you find my words threatening . . .
BTW, what exactly is "my kind"?
LOL, calm down friend. Apparently you find my words threatening . . .
BTW, what exactly is "my kind"?
Mom in LA | 12:16 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Ok. There are lot of really hateful things being said here. Mormons don't
hate gay people. We are just trying to protect our children from being taught
about homosexuality in schools having people tell our us it's wrong for us
not to allow gay marriage in our churches. Gay people still have the same
rights as married couples. Don't we have the right to raise our children
and worship as we want to? This is a free country. I'm sorry you
didn't get what you wanted, but don't be so hateful.
Mike Richards | 12:20 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Darin,
Given your thesis that the absence of religion is best for society, who is the author of your principles? Who is it that is against religion? Who is it what preaches that God harms society? Who is it that fights against Christ?
Given your thesis that the absence of religion is best for society, who is the author of your principles? Who is it that is against religion? Who is it what preaches that God harms society? Who is it that fights against Christ?
jackhp | 12:21 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
8:46 am
No, your logic is wrong . . . way wrong. We don't legislate religious beliefs in our country. If a religious belief happens to coincide with secular law (thou shalt not murder, for example) that doesn't mean the law is based upon religious belief. The law is based upon the common good. What, pray tell, is the common good derived from denying the right to marry to same-sex couples? Keep in mind, as per the CA Supreme Court ruling, the state must show a "compelling state interest" in order to deny rights based on sexual orientation. What is the "compelling state interest" to deny marriage to same-sex couples?
No, your logic is wrong . . . way wrong. We don't legislate religious beliefs in our country. If a religious belief happens to coincide with secular law (thou shalt not murder, for example) that doesn't mean the law is based upon religious belief. The law is based upon the common good. What, pray tell, is the common good derived from denying the right to marry to same-sex couples? Keep in mind, as per the CA Supreme Court ruling, the state must show a "compelling state interest" in order to deny rights based on sexual orientation. What is the "compelling state interest" to deny marriage to same-sex couples?
Kevin | 12:31 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Mom in LA,
You're just another misinformed person who listened to the lies. Under California law you have the option to opt out your child from any school discussion on health or family issues you feel are inappropriate. The California Superintendent of Schools, Jack O'Connell even came out to clear up the lie saying "Our schools aren't required to teach anything about marriage. Prop 8 has nothing to do with schools.'
Also, see my earlier post. There are over 1000 rights that married couples enjoy that aren't offered to those who can only join in civil unions.
Congrats on doing your homework. I really don't think you're sorry.
You're just another misinformed person who listened to the lies. Under California law you have the option to opt out your child from any school discussion on health or family issues you feel are inappropriate. The California Superintendent of Schools, Jack O'Connell even came out to clear up the lie saying "Our schools aren't required to teach anything about marriage. Prop 8 has nothing to do with schools.'
Also, see my earlier post. There are over 1000 rights that married couples enjoy that aren't offered to those who can only join in civil unions.
Congrats on doing your homework. I really don't think you're sorry.
jackhp | 12:34 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Mike Richards,
Yeah, that's "hate speech". I hate that you feel so self-righteous and smug about actively denying the same rights, freedoms and equality to gay people that we ourselves enjoy without question. Your speech AND actions are much more hateful than mine.
Yeah, that's "hate speech". I hate that you feel so self-righteous and smug about actively denying the same rights, freedoms and equality to gay people that we ourselves enjoy without question. Your speech AND actions are much more hateful than mine.
AB | 12:36 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
1) The society and culture are not in decline. This is the same baseless and
myopic claim pulled out every-time the nannies decide they want to control how
others live.
2) It is shameful that the church took an activist stance on a bill in an entirely different state. It will only come back to harm the institution, just as the social conservatives in the Republican party are largely at fault for their most recent losses.
3) LDS is just one of many religions. It's as absurd to many of as all the others. Please try to be humble about your beliefs. Don't confuse truth with faith. Otherwise, you are looking for a fight. Growing up in the church, this absolutism and activism seems entirely new to me. Then again, I didn't grow up in Utah.
2) It is shameful that the church took an activist stance on a bill in an entirely different state. It will only come back to harm the institution, just as the social conservatives in the Republican party are largely at fault for their most recent losses.
3) LDS is just one of many religions. It's as absurd to many of as all the others. Please try to be humble about your beliefs. Don't confuse truth with faith. Otherwise, you are looking for a fight. Growing up in the church, this absolutism and activism seems entirely new to me. Then again, I didn't grow up in Utah.
Ratman | 12:39 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Ernest,
Interesting that you are LDS....Hmmmm. Nothing about the church is more basic than its assertion of divine revelation. So, as someone belonging to the church, do you believe that the Lord himself is guiding it, even today? Or if you don't believe it is divinely guided, what is the church to you, some kind of political or social club, where you can agitate for change?
As you have no doubt heard, the LDS Church claims to be the Kingdom of God on Earth, with none other than Christ himself at its head. It is and never has been been intended to be a democracy. If you are a sincere member with a disagreement, it is your responsibility to realign yourself by privately humbling yourself before the Lord in prayer, and asking Him what is right. If you ask sincerely with real intent, you will receive your answer (Moroni 10:3-5).
Interesting that you are LDS....Hmmmm. Nothing about the church is more basic than its assertion of divine revelation. So, as someone belonging to the church, do you believe that the Lord himself is guiding it, even today? Or if you don't believe it is divinely guided, what is the church to you, some kind of political or social club, where you can agitate for change?
As you have no doubt heard, the LDS Church claims to be the Kingdom of God on Earth, with none other than Christ himself at its head. It is and never has been been intended to be a democracy. If you are a sincere member with a disagreement, it is your responsibility to realign yourself by privately humbling yourself before the Lord in prayer, and asking Him what is right. If you ask sincerely with real intent, you will receive your answer (Moroni 10:3-5).
Mike Richards | 12:40 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Jackhp,
You dance around the actual question when you say, "What, pray tell, is the common good derived from denying the right to marry to same-sex couples?"
The question that you should be asking is: What is the purpose of marriage? Why is it important? What is the outcome of a good marriage?
The purpose of marriage, pure and simple, is to enable two people, a man and a woman, to receive all the blessings that God grants to His children. The purpose of marriage is to have an environment where children can be shown and taught how to properly live life. The purpose of marriage is to emulate, as nearly as possible, the concept of God's way of life.
Proper marriage is important so that a proper example can be shown to children.
The outcome of proper marriage is that children will be capable of continuing the process of living the principles that bring happiness and showing their children the way of happiness and joy.
Those that fight against proper marriage fight against these principles. They would counterfeit marriage to include anti-God principles as fundamental to a proper family. They have no room for God. They worship someone else.
You dance around the actual question when you say, "What, pray tell, is the common good derived from denying the right to marry to same-sex couples?"
The question that you should be asking is: What is the purpose of marriage? Why is it important? What is the outcome of a good marriage?
The purpose of marriage, pure and simple, is to enable two people, a man and a woman, to receive all the blessings that God grants to His children. The purpose of marriage is to have an environment where children can be shown and taught how to properly live life. The purpose of marriage is to emulate, as nearly as possible, the concept of God's way of life.
Proper marriage is important so that a proper example can be shown to children.
The outcome of proper marriage is that children will be capable of continuing the process of living the principles that bring happiness and showing their children the way of happiness and joy.
Those that fight against proper marriage fight against these principles. They would counterfeit marriage to include anti-God principles as fundamental to a proper family. They have no room for God. They worship someone else.
jackhp | 12:57 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Mike Richards,
You just don't get it, I doubt you ever will (see the first comment in this thread). That is your RELIGION's "purpose of marriage". Frankly, I don't care what your religion says about marriage. It has nothing at all to do with secular law, freedom, religious tolerance, the founding principles of our nation or equality under the law.
BTW, I don't believe in "Satan" so you can stop alluding to the fact that those who fight against "proper marriage" are worshiping "him". You want to know what I worship? I worship freedom, equality and personal liberty . . . the founding principles of our nation under our governing document, The Constitution of the United States of America. Those who would arbitrarily deny freedom and equality do not live by the same principles as I. The do not live by the principles of our great country. They do not honor the Constitution as it should be honored. Those who arbitrarily deny freedom are un-American and deserve NOT to be tolerated.
You just don't get it, I doubt you ever will (see the first comment in this thread). That is your RELIGION's "purpose of marriage". Frankly, I don't care what your religion says about marriage. It has nothing at all to do with secular law, freedom, religious tolerance, the founding principles of our nation or equality under the law.
BTW, I don't believe in "Satan" so you can stop alluding to the fact that those who fight against "proper marriage" are worshiping "him". You want to know what I worship? I worship freedom, equality and personal liberty . . . the founding principles of our nation under our governing document, The Constitution of the United States of America. Those who would arbitrarily deny freedom and equality do not live by the same principles as I. The do not live by the principles of our great country. They do not honor the Constitution as it should be honored. Those who arbitrarily deny freedom are un-American and deserve NOT to be tolerated.
Have all the rights you want. | 1:11 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Just don't call any union not between a man and a woman of legal age not
related to each other a marrige. You say you are only asking for the same rights
as those that can marry, great ask for those rights. Ask for all those right no
one voted for you not to have those rights, they voted for you not to change
what he word marrige means. All they are asking is to keep the meaning of the
word marrige to mean between a man and a woman. We don't care what you call
any other kind of union, and we don't care if you have all the same rights
within the law (you still will not have the same right within religion). So
please fight for the rights you claim you want, just not the word marrige.
Thank you and live how you want to live, I believe it's a sin and wrong. But that is you choice and we will all pay for our actions. You might be right or I might be right, we will all find out at some point. So go live you life and I will live mine.
Thank you and live how you want to live, I believe it's a sin and wrong. But that is you choice and we will all pay for our actions. You might be right or I might be right, we will all find out at some point. So go live you life and I will live mine.
Darin | 1:16 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Mike Richards,
I try always to act as my conscience dictates. I concede that this does not necessarily make me "right". (Would you concede the same?) In other words, I can't prove that my conscience is right, as you cannot prove that your beliefs are right. We could turn all your questions around and ask you to answer, as well.
Likewise, I do not interpret Jesus' life and teachings as you do. I am absolutely certain in my mind that if Jesus were on earth today he would be squarely with all human rights proponents, including gay rights. But again, I admit that I cannot prove this.
Finally, we can cite examples of just how destructive religion has been until we're blue in the face: The inquisition, the Crusades, the Taliban, etc.. Yes, I know, a few examples of bad behavior doesn't mean that religion is ALL bad. But I am not proud of our record, and I see it time and again: Good people doing bad things in the name of religion. Gay marriage is no different. The basic sense of fairness is common to everyone - only religion has the power to warp this.
I try always to act as my conscience dictates. I concede that this does not necessarily make me "right". (Would you concede the same?) In other words, I can't prove that my conscience is right, as you cannot prove that your beliefs are right. We could turn all your questions around and ask you to answer, as well.
Likewise, I do not interpret Jesus' life and teachings as you do. I am absolutely certain in my mind that if Jesus were on earth today he would be squarely with all human rights proponents, including gay rights. But again, I admit that I cannot prove this.
Finally, we can cite examples of just how destructive religion has been until we're blue in the face: The inquisition, the Crusades, the Taliban, etc.. Yes, I know, a few examples of bad behavior doesn't mean that religion is ALL bad. But I am not proud of our record, and I see it time and again: Good people doing bad things in the name of religion. Gay marriage is no different. The basic sense of fairness is common to everyone - only religion has the power to warp this.
Mc | 1:26 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
What these pro Gay commenters and the protesters don't understand is that
this church and it's members have never been afraid of persecution. In
fact, we thrive on it. As the Lord said to Joseph Smith in 1842, "And if
they persecute you, so persecuted they the prophets and righteous men that were
before you. For all this there is a reward in heaven." D&C 127:4
There is no reason for us to be offended by the protesters. They can not harm or change us. Persecuting the Church will only stir up more interest in the Church. Moral people are looking for a church that stands up for morality. This will attract them. Members of the Church who do not support the Prophet will leave, but new converts will swell our ranks and the Church will roll on. We can afford to let them have their protest time.
There is no reason for us to be offended by the protesters. They can not harm or change us. Persecuting the Church will only stir up more interest in the Church. Moral people are looking for a church that stands up for morality. This will attract them. Members of the Church who do not support the Prophet will leave, but new converts will swell our ranks and the Church will roll on. We can afford to let them have their protest time.
jackhp | 1:37 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Mom in LA makes an interesting point, although I'm not sure it's the
point she was trying to make. It seems Mom is afraid that her kids will be
taught in school to be MORE tolerant than she or her religion would like. Yeah,
that sounds like a bad thing. (rolls eyes)
Mom, no one is telling you how to run YOUR church. That's the whole point. YOU (and your church) are trying to force your beliefs about marriage onto ALL of society. In contrast, we AREN'T trying to tell your church which marriages they have to sanction.
Like it or not, we live in a secular, pluralistic society. Not everyone is going to agree on everything, but we ALL deserve to be treated equally with respect to the law. To arbitrarily deny same-sex couples the right to marry goes against every founding principle of our country. The lies and distortions you have been fed about the consequences of legalizing gay marriage have done their job by whipping the masses into a frenzy to deny, once again, equality to an entire segment of our population. I thought we were better than that; I was wrong.
(is this unpublishable?)
Mom, no one is telling you how to run YOUR church. That's the whole point. YOU (and your church) are trying to force your beliefs about marriage onto ALL of society. In contrast, we AREN'T trying to tell your church which marriages they have to sanction.
Like it or not, we live in a secular, pluralistic society. Not everyone is going to agree on everything, but we ALL deserve to be treated equally with respect to the law. To arbitrarily deny same-sex couples the right to marry goes against every founding principle of our country. The lies and distortions you have been fed about the consequences of legalizing gay marriage have done their job by whipping the masses into a frenzy to deny, once again, equality to an entire segment of our population. I thought we were better than that; I was wrong.
(is this unpublishable?)
Kevin 1000 Rights | 1:37 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Kevin. I would like to know what those 1000 rights are. List some of them and
lets work towads changing those rights that should be changed. But don't
change the meaning of marrige. Please let those rights you don't have and
lets see about changing them. But I would guess you will not do this, because
want you really want is to change the meaning or the word marrige. If you
didn't you would work towards change those rights you say you don't
have.
I will wait to her what those rights are and to see if you want equal rights, or you just want to change the meaning of the word marrige. You have a chance to prove that you are for equal rights, or to do what everyone is worried about and that is to change what are believes are.
I'm waiting.
I will wait to her what those rights are and to see if you want equal rights, or you just want to change the meaning of the word marrige. You have a chance to prove that you are for equal rights, or to do what everyone is worried about and that is to change what are believes are.
I'm waiting.
MEB | 1:45 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Strange that so many posters on these pages over the past few days have called
for unity after Barack Obama was elected. We should accept the election
results, and put our partisan bickering behind us. Hundreds of arguments were
made in favor of getting behind President-elect Obama on these pages alone.
Now many of those same posters refuse to accept the will of the voters in California. They protest, deface private property, march, threaten, and belittle. It's ironic that they accuse the church of hypocrisy.
But as I listen and observe the behavior of many of these protesters, both in California and last night in Salt Lake City, I think of the phrase "weeping, wailing, and knashing of teeth", and it helps keep things in perspective...
Now many of those same posters refuse to accept the will of the voters in California. They protest, deface private property, march, threaten, and belittle. It's ironic that they accuse the church of hypocrisy.
But as I listen and observe the behavior of many of these protesters, both in California and last night in Salt Lake City, I think of the phrase "weeping, wailing, and knashing of teeth", and it helps keep things in perspective...
Mike Richards | 1:53 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Jackhp and Darin,
You beliefs don't concern me. You are free to worship whomever you wish in whatever way you wish. Your denial that satan exists is your privilege. Your beliefs don't make it so, it is solely your beliefs.
Jackhp, you want to separate marriage from religion. Why? God ordained marriage between a man and a woman. Your lack of belief in that ordinance does not negate the ordinance. Recognize that you do not have the power to dictate eternal law and that you, regardless of your beliefs, can only spit in the face of God. You cannot change His mind nor the laws that He lives by. Your claim that you have no belief in satan only shows that you have a belief in him. You claim to not follow him nor to worship him. Fine. Believe what you will, but those who know that there are two forces in this world can easily see, by your actions, whom you follow.
Darin, you dictate to Christ what He should do and how He should act. Read the scriptures and you'll find that He had no tolerance for sin nor did he condone sin.
You beliefs don't concern me. You are free to worship whomever you wish in whatever way you wish. Your denial that satan exists is your privilege. Your beliefs don't make it so, it is solely your beliefs.
Jackhp, you want to separate marriage from religion. Why? God ordained marriage between a man and a woman. Your lack of belief in that ordinance does not negate the ordinance. Recognize that you do not have the power to dictate eternal law and that you, regardless of your beliefs, can only spit in the face of God. You cannot change His mind nor the laws that He lives by. Your claim that you have no belief in satan only shows that you have a belief in him. You claim to not follow him nor to worship him. Fine. Believe what you will, but those who know that there are two forces in this world can easily see, by your actions, whom you follow.
Darin, you dictate to Christ what He should do and how He should act. Read the scriptures and you'll find that He had no tolerance for sin nor did he condone sin.
teacher | 2:09 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
how about "gnashing" of teeth....
MEB | 2:31 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Thanks, Teach. I kant beleive I misspeled that won.
Mike Richards | 2:43 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Jackhp,
Let's try to be civil on this forum.
Who would tell you that satan doesn't exist? Who but satan himself would perpetrate that lie? Whom do you believe, the author of truth or the author of lies?
It's so easy to claim that civil laws do not recognize religious marriages. Just the opposite is true. Civil laws allow non-religious people to claim the "right" to receive through civil authorities what are, in actual fact, religious based ceremonies. Civil authority does not make the ceremony valid, but those who have no belief in God would tend to think that man has the right to tell God what He must accept. Who is trying to fool whom?
Irrational? What is irrational? Your willingness to profess that unless you believe something, that "that" "something" cannot possibly exist or my willingness to believe truth from whatever source it comes?
Let's try to be civil on this forum.
Who would tell you that satan doesn't exist? Who but satan himself would perpetrate that lie? Whom do you believe, the author of truth or the author of lies?
It's so easy to claim that civil laws do not recognize religious marriages. Just the opposite is true. Civil laws allow non-religious people to claim the "right" to receive through civil authorities what are, in actual fact, religious based ceremonies. Civil authority does not make the ceremony valid, but those who have no belief in God would tend to think that man has the right to tell God what He must accept. Who is trying to fool whom?
Irrational? What is irrational? Your willingness to profess that unless you believe something, that "that" "something" cannot possibly exist or my willingness to believe truth from whatever source it comes?
jackhp | 3:38 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Yes, Indiana, here I am "lashing out" against the arbitrary denial of
rights to a segment of our population. Stop denying equality and I'll stop
"lashing out". Deal?
Anonymous | 3:45 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
HI Kevin 100 rights.
Here are just a few but I'm sure if you did some homework instead of just being a lemming, you could find the rest.
Gifts:
Marriage: Partners can transfer gifts to each other without tax penalty.
Civil Unions: Partners do not pay state taxes, but are required to report federal taxes.
Death Benefits:
Marriage: In the case of a partner's death, the spouse receives any earned Social Security or veteran benefits.
Civil Unions: Partners do not receive Social Security or any other government benefits in case of death. In the case of the death of former Congressman Gerry Studds, his partner of 15 years was denied the government pension that would have gone to a legally recognized spouse.
Immigration Rights:
Marriage: U.S. citizens and legal residents can sponsor their spouses and family members for immigration.
Civil Unions: U.S. citizens and legal residents cannot sponsor non-legal spouses or family members.
Here are just a few but I'm sure if you did some homework instead of just being a lemming, you could find the rest.
Gifts:
Marriage: Partners can transfer gifts to each other without tax penalty.
Civil Unions: Partners do not pay state taxes, but are required to report federal taxes.
Death Benefits:
Marriage: In the case of a partner's death, the spouse receives any earned Social Security or veteran benefits.
Civil Unions: Partners do not receive Social Security or any other government benefits in case of death. In the case of the death of former Congressman Gerry Studds, his partner of 15 years was denied the government pension that would have gone to a legally recognized spouse.
Immigration Rights:
Marriage: U.S. citizens and legal residents can sponsor their spouses and family members for immigration.
Civil Unions: U.S. citizens and legal residents cannot sponsor non-legal spouses or family members.
Kevin | 4:03 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
HI Kevin 1000
Here are a few examples. I'm sure if you did a little homework instead of being a lemming, you could find the rest.
Gifts:
Marriage: Partners can transfer gifts to each other without tax penalty.
Civil Unions: Partners do not pay state taxes, but are required to report federal taxes.
Death Benefits:
Marriage: In the case of a partner's death, the spouse receives any earned Social Security or veteran benefits.
Civil Unions: Partners do not receive Social Security or any other government benefits in case of death. In the case of the death of former Congressman Gerry Studds, his partner of 15 years was denied the government pension that would have gone to a legally recognized spouse.
Immigration Rights:
Marriage: U.S. citizens and legal residents can sponsor their spouses and family members for immigration.
Civil Unions: U.S. citizens and legal residents cannot sponsor non-legal spouses or family members.
Here are a few examples. I'm sure if you did a little homework instead of being a lemming, you could find the rest.
Gifts:
Marriage: Partners can transfer gifts to each other without tax penalty.
Civil Unions: Partners do not pay state taxes, but are required to report federal taxes.
Death Benefits:
Marriage: In the case of a partner's death, the spouse receives any earned Social Security or veteran benefits.
Civil Unions: Partners do not receive Social Security or any other government benefits in case of death. In the case of the death of former Congressman Gerry Studds, his partner of 15 years was denied the government pension that would have gone to a legally recognized spouse.
Immigration Rights:
Marriage: U.S. citizens and legal residents can sponsor their spouses and family members for immigration.
Civil Unions: U.S. citizens and legal residents cannot sponsor non-legal spouses or family members.
mark | 4:05 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
@jackhp | 4:37 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008,
The definition in my dictionary says: "a similar long-term relationship between partners of the same sex."
So what's your point?
The definition in my dictionary says: "a similar long-term relationship between partners of the same sex."
So what's your point?
mark | 4:32 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Okay Mike you say:
"Those who have studied the LDS Church know that one church and one church only on the entire earth claims to be the restored church of Jesus Christ with full authority to act in His name and to do His work (including eternal marriage)."
So what? So what that your church claims that?
"Those who have studied the LDS Church know that one church and one church only on the entire earth claims to be the restored church of Jesus Christ with full authority to act in His name and to do His work (including eternal marriage)."
So what? So what that your church claims that?
mark | 4:36 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Nope re:mark, I am talking about exactly who I said I was talking about.
Anon | 4:42 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Now there is no legal path for the enemies of the Church to persecute and
suppress our teachings. They must now act illegally to so do.
As an aside, I wonder how Darin's ex-wife and kids feel about Prop. 8?
As an aside, I wonder how Darin's ex-wife and kids feel about Prop. 8?
mark | 4:42 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
And the sad thing Anon 11:37, you believe that garbage you spew.
mark | 4:58 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
I just want to thank all the Mormon posters on this board, especially Mike and
Anon, for reinforcing my conviction to stay as far away from your church as
possible. I always knew it was the right decision, but you guys on this board
just reinforce it for me. Thanks.
mark | 5:09 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Have all the rights you want. "We will all find out at some point."
What makes you think that?
Anyway, the word marriage does not belong to you, you do not get to decide what is done with it. Others have as much claim to it as you.
At one point people made the same arguments as many on this board about interracial marriage, thank goodness that other, more reasoned people recognized the flaws in those arguments.
Anyway, the word marriage does not belong to you, you do not get to decide what is done with it. Others have as much claim to it as you.
At one point people made the same arguments as many on this board about interracial marriage, thank goodness that other, more reasoned people recognized the flaws in those arguments.
jackhp | 5:22 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
I am unsure why many of my comments defending myself form the attacks of Mike
and Indiana seem not to get published. I will try again.
Mike, people who actively try to deny equality based on their religious beliefs are the antithesis of "civil". If you find my words un-civil, so be it. I find your actions to be much more so.
Mike, people who actively try to deny equality based on their religious beliefs are the antithesis of "civil". If you find my words un-civil, so be it. I find your actions to be much more so.
Kevin | 5:26 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
I understand that I don't know all the things that are different right now
between a marrige and a cival union. Since you seem to know the differences why
don't you fight to have them changed, but leave the definition of marrige
alone.
If all you want is equal rights fight for them without changing something that doesn't need to be change for you to have all the same rights.
The following is just an example to try and show the differences. All fruits are fruits, but only an apple is an apple. So all couples are couples, but only a couple made between a man and a woman equals the definition of a marrige.
I'm al for you trying to get equal rights, so go for it. I will never fight you over that. But I will never give up the fight to keep the definition of marrige what is currently is.
If all you want is equal rights fight for them without changing something that doesn't need to be change for you to have all the same rights.
The following is just an example to try and show the differences. All fruits are fruits, but only an apple is an apple. So all couples are couples, but only a couple made between a man and a woman equals the definition of a marrige.
I'm al for you trying to get equal rights, so go for it. I will never fight you over that. But I will never give up the fight to keep the definition of marrige what is currently is.
To: Jackhp | 5:39 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
When it comes to tolerating you, you're right, I won't tolerate YOU
forcing YOUR beliefs upon ME (and I won't apologize for it either).
Mike Richards | 5:40 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Mark @ 4:32,
So what? So what, indeed!
What do you offer the world that is more divine than the restoration off all things that Christ himself proclaimed? What is your message of salvation? What is your message of joy? What is your message of eternal happiness?
All I hear from the pro-homosexual activists are stories of anguish and hopelessness for humanity. You've given up on living at a level that brings peace, happiness and joy, and now you want everyone to wallow with you in a Godless world.
You're welcome to that world. I want neither it nor the "religion" that you profess.
So what? So what, indeed!
What do you offer the world that is more divine than the restoration off all things that Christ himself proclaimed? What is your message of salvation? What is your message of joy? What is your message of eternal happiness?
All I hear from the pro-homosexual activists are stories of anguish and hopelessness for humanity. You've given up on living at a level that brings peace, happiness and joy, and now you want everyone to wallow with you in a Godless world.
You're welcome to that world. I want neither it nor the "religion" that you profess.
MEB | 5:46 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
@jackhp - Quit making up arbitrary rights, and we'll quit trying to
maintain the longstanding culture, tradition, and opportunity of marriage
between a man and a woman.
You don't have a right to marry someone of the same sex. That has never been in the US Constitution, nor has it ever been in the California State Constitution. You have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex just like everyone else. No special rights, no manufactured rights, nothing more than what everyone else has the 'right' to do (according to California).
If you want to start creating new rights like marrying someone of the same sex, then where does that phony practice end? Will you deny Polygamists the right to marry anyone they please? Will you deny NAMBLA members the right to marry an old man to a young boy? Those are similar rights. Where does your insanity end??
You don't have a right to marry someone of the same sex. That has never been in the US Constitution, nor has it ever been in the California State Constitution. You have the right to marry someone of the opposite sex just like everyone else. No special rights, no manufactured rights, nothing more than what everyone else has the 'right' to do (according to California).
If you want to start creating new rights like marrying someone of the same sex, then where does that phony practice end? Will you deny Polygamists the right to marry anyone they please? Will you deny NAMBLA members the right to marry an old man to a young boy? Those are similar rights. Where does your insanity end??
Jason | 5:51 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
All of the pro-Prop. 8 people remind me of this scripture.
"Ye are saved by grace, not by works, lest man should boast."
WOW if that doesn't describe the LDS church I don't know what does. Every single one of you Prop. 8 supporters are very boastful. You think you have the power and authority, you think you belong to the only true church on the face of the earth. Well I've got news for all of you, God is not a respector of persons. Get over yourselves!
This is exactly why the anti Prop.8 people are so mad at all of you. You all need to wake up!
"Ye are saved by grace, not by works, lest man should boast."
WOW if that doesn't describe the LDS church I don't know what does. Every single one of you Prop. 8 supporters are very boastful. You think you have the power and authority, you think you belong to the only true church on the face of the earth. Well I've got news for all of you, God is not a respector of persons. Get over yourselves!
This is exactly why the anti Prop.8 people are so mad at all of you. You all need to wake up!
Anon | 6:10 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Mark,
May the peace of God be with you as you find another nation to live in; one where democracy is only allowed when the people agree with you.
May the peace of God be with you as you find another nation to live in; one where democracy is only allowed when the people agree with you.
JanSan | 6:21 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
You know I really get tired of the gay community trashing the LDS church because
they did not get their way! Before the vote they would trash us and tell us we
had to be tolerant but they don't seem to have to follow there own
preaching! We are not forcing you to live our religion. I don't care if you
come to my church or not! We are just standing up for our rights to vote! And I
don't care what you say about the support of the church with this vote! You
had plenty of your own support so I see it as even.. and we were not the only
ones who voted this down.. open your eyes get real! It was Californian who voted
on this - not once but twice! and also others in other states. Your rights have
not been violated.. There was no goverment in the Garden of Eden when God
married Adam and Eve! You have all the rights you need - you just don't
have one word- and your throwing this hugh fit over just that one word.. Well
guess what it comes from God and he does not believe in Homosexuality!
English as the official language | 6:46 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
This whole Prop 8 thing reminds me of the recent push to declare English as the
official language of the United States. The proponents of that movement wanted a
clear definition of what languages the US would officially sanction. They wanted
English to be the only language required.
There are lots of foreign-born people in this country who feel more comfortable speaking Spanish, Japanese, Russian, or other language than they do English, even though the vast majority of Americans speak English.
Those who supported having English declared as the official language were worried that lawsuits would be filed against governments, businesses, and individuals who refused to post signs, print menus, or give instructions in anything but English.
They were called bigots and told their support for English-only was discriminatory and they were violating the civil rights of everyone who didn't want to learn English.
Sounds familiar doesn't it?
There are lots of foreign-born people in this country who feel more comfortable speaking Spanish, Japanese, Russian, or other language than they do English, even though the vast majority of Americans speak English.
Those who supported having English declared as the official language were worried that lawsuits would be filed against governments, businesses, and individuals who refused to post signs, print menus, or give instructions in anything but English.
They were called bigots and told their support for English-only was discriminatory and they were violating the civil rights of everyone who didn't want to learn English.
Sounds familiar doesn't it?
Mike Richards | 6:57 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Jackhp,
You have a different view of civility than many of us. You have a different view of equality than many of us. You have a different view of life, of God, of religion, of freedom than many of us. You are entitled to your views.
The election is over. The people have spoken. I am bound by that election as much as you are bound by that election. Being civilized means that my personal feelings are set aside after the vote has been counted. That is what civil means. It is part of civilization. Civilized people put down their swords and get off their soap boxes when the election is over. They do not march in protest. They do not deface private property. They act civilized.
You have read enough of my posts to know how I campaigned against Mr. Obama. But, now that the election is over, I salute him as our next President and wish him the best. I will not parade against him. I will not deface his property. I will support him and all others that were selected to be my leaders. That is the civil part of civilization.
Marriage has been defined.
You have a different view of civility than many of us. You have a different view of equality than many of us. You have a different view of life, of God, of religion, of freedom than many of us. You are entitled to your views.
The election is over. The people have spoken. I am bound by that election as much as you are bound by that election. Being civilized means that my personal feelings are set aside after the vote has been counted. That is what civil means. It is part of civilization. Civilized people put down their swords and get off their soap boxes when the election is over. They do not march in protest. They do not deface private property. They act civilized.
You have read enough of my posts to know how I campaigned against Mr. Obama. But, now that the election is over, I salute him as our next President and wish him the best. I will not parade against him. I will not deface his property. I will support him and all others that were selected to be my leaders. That is the civil part of civilization.
Marriage has been defined.
just a kid | 7:00 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
look, homosexuality is wrong in the sight of God and in the sight of most
people, not all but most. we all have our equal rights, but marriage is a
sacred thing and should not be tainted. but people will disagree. And jackhp
needs to get off his high horse and open his eyes!!! im 13 for crying out loud
and i can see that!!! jeez people you need to learn how to play nice in the
sandbox!!
GWB | 7:21 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
What if my religion believes it is acceptable to marry gay people, and that in
order to get to heaven one must be married in the church.
Will you then support denying my religious rights to exaultation?
If so, which religous rights do they go after next? We know that evangelicals think LDS people are part of a cult (don't believe me, look how they treated Mitt). Would the LDS church be next in line to have their rights limited by constitutional ammendments?
Will you then support denying my religious rights to exaultation?
If so, which religous rights do they go after next? We know that evangelicals think LDS people are part of a cult (don't believe me, look how they treated Mitt). Would the LDS church be next in line to have their rights limited by constitutional ammendments?
Danny C. | 7:36 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
The LDS Church isn't forcing its doctrine on anyone. They are going
through perfectly legal channels to persuade people to agree with their stance
and allowing them to make up their own minds. And those people went ahead and
voted. Wouldn't matter if it was the LDS Church, the Catholic Church, or
the tooth fairy opposing gay marriage, the citizens are the ones who decided.
Randy | 7:45 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
There's nearly 14 times more Catholics and 3 times more blacks in
California than Mormons, both these groups voted overwhelming in favor of Prop
8.
Get over it, you lost, "Whether you like it or not!" - Gavin Newsom
Get over it, you lost, "Whether you like it or not!" - Gavin Newsom
Fred | 7:53 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
"Danny C." when you say "The LDS Church isn't forcing its
doctrine on anyone. They are going through perfectly legal channels to persuade
people to agree with their stance and allowing them to make up their own
minds."
You do realize that political actions by a church with 501(c)3 tax exempt status are not perfectly legal.
Given that the church put in $20 million or so to the "Yes on 8" side, you can cound on a challenge to the tax exempt status. If evidence comes up that the church pushed this (not independent action by members) be prepared to lose the tax deduction for your tithing.
You do realize that political actions by a church with 501(c)3 tax exempt status are not perfectly legal.
Given that the church put in $20 million or so to the "Yes on 8" side, you can cound on a challenge to the tax exempt status. If evidence comes up that the church pushed this (not independent action by members) be prepared to lose the tax deduction for your tithing.
Danny C. | 8:19 p.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Fred, Church MEMBERS put that money out (and I believe it was $40 million, not
$20 million, but I'd have to check). All the Church's corporate entity
did was pay for traveling costs for a couple representatives. I don't
recall the details, but I assure you, the amount was negligible.
And the church was lobbying, not endorsing a candidate or some such. Other churches get far more involved in politics and still seem to get by just fine in their tax-exempt status. Only when the lobbying takes up a significant percentage of a tax exempt group's funds does the IRS look into it. Go back a few days in the DN archives. There's an article about it, if I remember correctly.
Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's...I think the Church is well enough off that even if it did have to pay taxes, they wouldn't make much of a dent. And I take the standard deduction, by the way, but thanks for your concern.
And the church was lobbying, not endorsing a candidate or some such. Other churches get far more involved in politics and still seem to get by just fine in their tax-exempt status. Only when the lobbying takes up a significant percentage of a tax exempt group's funds does the IRS look into it. Go back a few days in the DN archives. There's an article about it, if I remember correctly.
Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's...I think the Church is well enough off that even if it did have to pay taxes, they wouldn't make much of a dent. And I take the standard deduction, by the way, but thanks for your concern.
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