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Readers' forum: Church critics are offensive
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Randy | 1:56 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
The day marriage is legalized for two consenting adult sisters, homosexuals, or
transgender bisexuals, would there be any doubt we are a society in decline.
John C. | 2:06 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Well I believe this is the beginning of a trend. The LDS church has had a lot
of years with relitive peace since its been in Utah. But I believe the
persacution that our ancestors saw is going to come back. But thats ok because
those who are seeking the truth tend to ask more questions when the church is
being slandered and vilafied. And you will see members and friends leave the
church as you find out what their testimonies really are.
Comments continue below
Jack Mormon | 2:07 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Homosexuality, like androgyny, might be an instinctive racial response to
overpopulation, crowding, and stress. Both flourish when empire reaches its
apogee. - Edward Abbey
mark | 2:22 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
And Lisa, I am getting far less tolerant of the superstitious, the religious,
and the self righteous. I am getting far less tolerant of those that would force
their believes on others. Those that believe that theirs are the only answers. I
am getting far less tolerant of those that revel in their ignorance. Those that
are proud of their ignorance.
Those that wear their idiocy and bigotry as a badge of honor.
Those that wear their idiocy and bigotry as a badge of honor.
GeeBee | 3:48 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Sometimes turning the tables helps to be more tolerant, compassionate, and
understanding...
"I am offended by the fact that this person could spew her anger at a [MINORITY] that has been around nearly as long as the tradition of marriage between a man and a woman. I am becoming less tolerant of the people who tell me that I am wrong for believing in my [OWN FEELINGS]. I guess I am getting tired of these people telling me that I should be accepting of [THEIR PARTICULAR RELIGIOUS SENTIMENTS]; meanwhile, they have no tolerance for me. I hope we never give up our [FREEDOMS] to appease someone with different opinions [OR RELIGIOUS POINTS OF VIEW]."
"I am offended by the fact that this person could spew her anger at a [MINORITY] that has been around nearly as long as the tradition of marriage between a man and a woman. I am becoming less tolerant of the people who tell me that I am wrong for believing in my [OWN FEELINGS]. I guess I am getting tired of these people telling me that I should be accepting of [THEIR PARTICULAR RELIGIOUS SENTIMENTS]; meanwhile, they have no tolerance for me. I hope we never give up our [FREEDOMS] to appease someone with different opinions [OR RELIGIOUS POINTS OF VIEW]."
Your association is embarassing | 4:02 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
@ Lisa, please think before you associate yourself with our Church. You're
tarnishing our good name.
"I am very offended by the comments made by the "lady" who suggested the church helped defeat the idea of allowing gays to marry."
Uh, have you been reading the news? Our Church did engage in that deplorable act. By the way, we've elected a new president too.
"I am becoming less tolerant of the people who tell me that I am wrong for believing in my religion.I guess I am getting tired of these people telling me that I should be accepting of them; meanwhile, they have no tolerance for me."
First off, you don't sound tolerant at all so less tolerance from you may result in violence. Second, nobody is saying you are wrong. They are merely asking you not to tell them they are wrong. Maybe try increasing your tolerance level.
Finally, Brigham Young once said that only fools are offended when offense isn't intended but a greater fool is offended when offense is intended. I wonder which category you fall into? Good thing you live in Logan.
"I am very offended by the comments made by the "lady" who suggested the church helped defeat the idea of allowing gays to marry."
Uh, have you been reading the news? Our Church did engage in that deplorable act. By the way, we've elected a new president too.
"I am becoming less tolerant of the people who tell me that I am wrong for believing in my religion.I guess I am getting tired of these people telling me that I should be accepting of them; meanwhile, they have no tolerance for me."
First off, you don't sound tolerant at all so less tolerance from you may result in violence. Second, nobody is saying you are wrong. They are merely asking you not to tell them they are wrong. Maybe try increasing your tolerance level.
Finally, Brigham Young once said that only fools are offended when offense isn't intended but a greater fool is offended when offense is intended. I wonder which category you fall into? Good thing you live in Logan.
Fred | 4:10 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Let me get this straight, the LDS church mobilizes it's forces to raise 20+
million to push a gay marriage ban in CA, but it is offensive that people
protest the church's actions?
I get it, kind of like it being offensive for people to come to Temple Square to tell you your religion is wrong, but it is not offensive to send young men out to tell other people their religion is wrong.
It seems to me to be a matter of perspective.
So, is Utah going to pass a marriage ammendment that says marriage is between One man and One woman? or is that betraying the church? How would you feel about Baptists coming in from Georgia to fight for this new Marriage ban?
The bottom line is that if people don't like political reaction to their actions, they should stay out of politics.
I get it, kind of like it being offensive for people to come to Temple Square to tell you your religion is wrong, but it is not offensive to send young men out to tell other people their religion is wrong.
It seems to me to be a matter of perspective.
So, is Utah going to pass a marriage ammendment that says marriage is between One man and One woman? or is that betraying the church? How would you feel about Baptists coming in from Georgia to fight for this new Marriage ban?
The bottom line is that if people don't like political reaction to their actions, they should stay out of politics.
Anonymous | 4:33 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Thank you this is a great letter.
I think that the Utah boycott will fail. People will come to Utah for many reasons.
1. They will think the lines are short because everyone went other places.
2. They will be glad that the gay factor will not be around, and they will feel free to bring their kids.
3. It will back lash on california and people will actually avoid it like the plague.
I think that the Utah boycott will fail. People will come to Utah for many reasons.
1. They will think the lines are short because everyone went other places.
2. They will be glad that the gay factor will not be around, and they will feel free to bring their kids.
3. It will back lash on california and people will actually avoid it like the plague.
@jackhp | 4:37 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
"People like you will apparently just never get the point. No one is
telling you that you are wrong for believing in your religion. We are telling
you that you are wrong for forcing others to live by your religious
beliefs."
Have you looked up the definition of marriage? The first and third definition both state "between a man and a woman." A fourth definition has been added now that states you can qualify it by stating a homosexual marriage. Even this shows that it is different than a traditional marriage.
When will you get the point? No one is stopping you from living your lifestyle. We are just not allowing you to call it marriage. I do not understand why you feel a need to call an orange an apple. It is different. It is not the same as marriage. Why must you force us to accept that they are the same?
Have you looked up the definition of marriage? The first and third definition both state "between a man and a woman." A fourth definition has been added now that states you can qualify it by stating a homosexual marriage. Even this shows that it is different than a traditional marriage.
When will you get the point? No one is stopping you from living your lifestyle. We are just not allowing you to call it marriage. I do not understand why you feel a need to call an orange an apple. It is different. It is not the same as marriage. Why must you force us to accept that they are the same?
anon | 5:18 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
re jackhp: No one is forcing religion down your throat. You don't have to
do anything you do not want to. Do we not have a right to stand up and say I do
not agree with you? Of course we do you just don't like it! From what I
have seen those who don't like what just happened with Prop. 8 are acting
like a buch of toddlers throwing a tantrum. Total classness I am not impressed!
Jason | 5:34 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
jackhp is right! You expect us to tolerate you and your beliefs but you cross
the line when you try to force those beliefs on me. All the GLBT community wants
is equal rights, no more no less. Believe what you want to believe, but in this
country, one belief system does not have the right to force those beliefs into
legislation. That is immoral in itself. The LDS church and its members along
with the other churches have all violated tax laws and have violated seperation
of church and state and one day will be held accountable for its actions. Those
actions are hurting tens of thousands of GLBT families in California and across
the U.S. and now we're told our actions are disgusting.
HYPOCRITES!!!!!!!!!! We are not going to take this lying down. We pay our taxes
and now we have taxation without representation. The law has been violated here
and there will be retribution! You ask us why are we getting involved with
something that happened outside of Utah. Again, HYPOCRITES! The constitution is
set up to protect the minority from the tryanny of the majority. The LDS church
has ....
Jason | 5:37 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
.... has violated its very own tenants. It has forgotten Christ's teachings
of tolerance, non-judgement, love, understanding, and charity. But of course no
one recognizes this because they are so brainwashed! They keep telling us
"the very elect will be deceived in the last days." Well that surely
has happened. But the very elect are the members of the LDS church and its
leaders. The LDS church has indeed abandoned its own teachings and God himself.
There I said it! The LDS church is now on Satan's side! Satan is the author
of hate, bigotry, forcing everyone to live by God's laws, etc. That is what
the LDS church and its members have done in California. And don't tell me
the LDS church and its members were only a minority in this piece of
legislation. The LDS Church and its members donated over $8 million dollars to
this campaign. You are all liars and hypocrites! Don't tell us not to be
angry, you have taken our rights away and spat upon the constitution! Again, you
reap what you sow. The day of retribution is at hand.
Anonymous | 5:42 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
The state should get out of the marriage business and leave it to the religious
institutions from which it came.
That said, LDS Church members and others who campaigned for and voted for Proposition Eight (a.k.a. Proposition Hate) are guilty of engaging in institutional aggression to deny equal rights for peaceful people.
As "V for Vendetta" reminds us, there is an insidious relationship between clergy and crown.
That said, LDS Church members and others who campaigned for and voted for Proposition Eight (a.k.a. Proposition Hate) are guilty of engaging in institutional aggression to deny equal rights for peaceful people.
As "V for Vendetta" reminds us, there is an insidious relationship between clergy and crown.
Crathes | 7:04 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
I agree with the writer. If we allow any two consenting adults to marry, then
what's next? A man with multiple wives? A man "marrying" women
who are already married to other men? A man "marrying" underaged
girls as young as 14? A man "marrying" a mother and her daughter?
This is just sick and wrong, and if this were associated with a religion would
be the sure sign of a cult!
liberal Larry | 7:12 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
I think the LDS church's efforts on prop. 8 have dealt a death blow to any
Mormon's chance of being a serious presidential contender. Most people in
this country are frightened by a group that can effectively vote as a huge
block, the reasoning being, that the leaders, of said block, will wield too much
power. This fear is especially strong in the religious wing of the GOP. I
think, Mitt's, only hope is to run as a more secular candidate in the
democratic party. (Lot's of luck on that one!)
MK OK | 7:13 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
It is interesting that the protestors continually talk about rights being taken
away, when domestic partnerships already have EVERY right that a married couple
has under California law. Prop 8 did not change that. The LDS Church is not
against them having rights, they are against the redefinition of marriage.
Interestingly, had Prop 8 not passed, we would have seen a loss of rights, the
rights of parents and religious institutions. Read an article on NPR called
"When Gay Rights and Religious Liberties Clash". So for anyone saying
that this is about rights, they are correct but they are incorrect in their
understanding of whose rights were at stake. And then we would really see a
minority's belief forced on the majority. When it would be taught in
schools (as it already has been), when people and institutions can not express
their views in a rational manner without being labeled as bigots. I guess that
many people think that as long as a value system being forced on others is more
permissive, it is okay. A less permissive system should not even be allowed to
be mentioned.
Straight talk | 7:13 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
The Church is being made an example by a group for whom the barriers to
reasonable dissent and personal restraint do not exist. Their answer to
prohibitions on homosexual activity is that they simply want our freedom to do
as they please is not reasonable. What society fights in its prohibitions of
expanded homosexual rights are the extreme behavior that will be shoved into
our daily lives until we one day see their grotesque behavior in our streets,
shopping centers, and neighborhoods. Witnessing on television the bizarre
behavior at one of their San Francisco gay parades is more than close enough.
SpySmiley | 7:23 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Jackhp: You are right on, with emphasis.
Randy: Take the wool from your eyes. Our society has been in decline since Bush became president. Two wars, an economy down the drain, many Republican politicians and their friends in prison.
I don't understand: when two people vow to love each other -LOVE - how can that be a negative?
Isn't love is what Christ teaches?
Randy: Take the wool from your eyes. Our society has been in decline since Bush became president. Two wars, an economy down the drain, many Republican politicians and their friends in prison.
I don't understand: when two people vow to love each other -LOVE - how can that be a negative?
Isn't love is what Christ teaches?
MEB | 7:42 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
I really wish Prop 8 would have been defeated. I was really looking forward to
moving to California to marry my horse. And the poor FLDS followers in Texas
could have really used a friendly state like California to move to so that they
could marry their 14 year old children off to old men.
Oh well, I guess I have to drag my horse all the way to Massachussetts now. I feel so persecuted.
Oh well, I guess I have to drag my horse all the way to Massachussetts now. I feel so persecuted.
Dick | 7:47 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Why is the writer "offended by the comments made by the "lady"
who suggested the church helped defeat the idea of allowing gays to
marry."
The "lady's" comments are true. Didn't the efforts of the church help pass Prop 8 that prohibited gays from marrying? Why does the writer take offense to that truthful comment?
The "lady's" comments are true. Didn't the efforts of the church help pass Prop 8 that prohibited gays from marrying? Why does the writer take offense to that truthful comment?
bilbo | 8:02 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
jackhp said: "When it comes to tolerating you, you're right, I
won't tolerate YOU forcing YOUR beliefs upon ME (and I won't apologize
for it either".
well, don't come asserting around me. I am not a victim, never will be a victim and sure won't take it from you and your kind.
I have a right along with everyone else's right, to be free from harassment.
Stay away from me and mine and you will be safe and free from harm (which is more than you court).
ps: you will tolerate what the Constitution guarantess you and I. You will not harm me and mine!
well, don't come asserting around me. I am not a victim, never will be a victim and sure won't take it from you and your kind.
I have a right along with everyone else's right, to be free from harassment.
Stay away from me and mine and you will be safe and free from harm (which is more than you court).
ps: you will tolerate what the Constitution guarantess you and I. You will not harm me and mine!
Fredd | 8:03 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Your ancestors were persecuted when they began marrying other men's wives,
sisters, daughters and preaching christianity was false. Now you are using your
organization to mount political campaigns some people oppose. What do/did you
expect?
To Lisa | 8:21 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Lisa, as an openly gay man in a 25 year relationship, I agree with one thing you
said: "I hope we never give up our convictions to appease someone with
different opinions."
dave | 8:22 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Believe and live your religion.. Remember it it YOUR religion. Keep it the
heck away from me. Don't project your religion on to others.
Anonymous | 8:26 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
To me, it seems that the church actively campaigned to remove someones'
rights. Someone who, as proven by the over 15000 gay marriages in california,
did not threaten society or the church. Now, folks are getting cranky at the
meddling. You should find it offensive. The church has done something offensive,
and you've no right to think the people it affected would be anything but
offensively unhappy about it.
Writer has it backward | 8:32 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Who started it? Gays didn't come to Utah to protest and campaign against
the LDS church's views. The LDS church first mobilized in California
against gays.
While I don't support protests in general and view them as counter-productive, it's only natural that LDS involvement in forcibly annulling people's marriages is going to anger a lot of people. They have reaped what they have sewn.
While I don't support protests in general and view them as counter-productive, it's only natural that LDS involvement in forcibly annulling people's marriages is going to anger a lot of people. They have reaped what they have sewn.
evensteven | 8:33 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
jackhp hasn't been paying attention.
Bigot, homophobe, believer in fairy tales, idiot, unenlightened, redneck. Those are just a few of the names I have been called here on this forum by those who consistently denigrate my beliefs and religion. Mocking leaders past and present, shouting down any counter-arguments, demanding tolerance but denying it to me - just a few of the tactics they employ.
jackhp joined in the fray in his last paragraph. Sadly, he also seems to have forgotten how our government works. Every law on the books is the result of some majority enforcing its will on a minority. What jackhp would do is deny the majority their voice and have 4 or 5 unelected, unaccountable judges impose their (his) will by fiat. Absent that, we descend slowly into anarchy as each group sets its own generally mutually exclusive rules to live by. Or we descend into tyranny.
Orwell had a clear vision for where we are and are heading. Some views, according to jackhp and his pro-gay fellows, are more equal than others.
Bigot, homophobe, believer in fairy tales, idiot, unenlightened, redneck. Those are just a few of the names I have been called here on this forum by those who consistently denigrate my beliefs and religion. Mocking leaders past and present, shouting down any counter-arguments, demanding tolerance but denying it to me - just a few of the tactics they employ.
jackhp joined in the fray in his last paragraph. Sadly, he also seems to have forgotten how our government works. Every law on the books is the result of some majority enforcing its will on a minority. What jackhp would do is deny the majority their voice and have 4 or 5 unelected, unaccountable judges impose their (his) will by fiat. Absent that, we descend slowly into anarchy as each group sets its own generally mutually exclusive rules to live by. Or we descend into tyranny.
Orwell had a clear vision for where we are and are heading. Some views, according to jackhp and his pro-gay fellows, are more equal than others.
Anonymous | 8:34 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
We aren't telling you that you can't believe in your religion
(I'm LDS as well!), we are telling you that you have no right to legislate
your religion into law!
The God inspired Constitution runs this country, not any religious doctrine.
Honestly, as an LDS person, do you actually want to start making laws based on religious doctrines seeing as the LDS population is a minority that is HATED in this nation?
Those same people that protest and say evil nasty things at you for believing in your religion, are the people that you continue to side with in the political arena. Once they've gone after others, they will soon turn on you and go for YOUR rights. It has happened in EVERY era of time.
The God inspired Constitution runs this country, not any religious doctrine.
Honestly, as an LDS person, do you actually want to start making laws based on religious doctrines seeing as the LDS population is a minority that is HATED in this nation?
Those same people that protest and say evil nasty things at you for believing in your religion, are the people that you continue to side with in the political arena. Once they've gone after others, they will soon turn on you and go for YOUR rights. It has happened in EVERY era of time.
Kate | 8:35 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Exactly right, Lisa! A newswriter, in retelling of how a NYC Orthodox Jew was
blasted for standing up for his beliefs. The tactics against him, and others
like him: " to pursue a strategy aimed at forcing acceptance of
unconventional behavior. Their tactic? Shout down, censor, or label
"intolerant" any whose convictions require opposition to their
unconventional behavior." He also said, "Many people who craftily
shout 'intolerance' often embrace tyranny."
Does this sound familiar right now??
Does this sound familiar right now??
Robert | 8:44 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
It's mob mentality without the violence. The protests against the LDS
Church allow those with pent up religious bigotry to express it without guilt.
When surrounded by others, they feel safe disguising their feelings as
legitimate political opinion.
@jackhp | 8:46 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Your logic is wrong. At the end of the day someone's beliefs are the
collective beliefs of the nation. A simple example that no one will argue:
Murder is also a religious tenent, one of the ten commandments. Most people
agree that it is wrong so it is a law that is not disputed. We believe that
marriage is ordained of God between a man and a woman. We will fight for that
beleif and you can fight for yours. It will never end until one side accepts
the other as common belief.
Kevin | 8:47 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
No question. We are mutually intolerant of each other. I'm saddened by
this.
In the history of this country, however, the unfortunate reality is that no minority group has achieved civil rights from majority referendum. Our constitutional government prevents majorities from dictating rights. Homosexuals' only recourse is in the courts.
In the history of this country, however, the unfortunate reality is that no minority group has achieved civil rights from majority referendum. Our constitutional government prevents majorities from dictating rights. Homosexuals' only recourse is in the courts.
Only a matter of time...... | 9:01 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Religious doctrine was used against women and ethnic minorities when they sought
equality, but it ultimately failed. It's been within my lifetime that the
LDS Church openly discriminated against our black friends and neighbors, and in
the end it was the church who changed. This Country was founded on the
principles of equality and separation of Church and State, and part of the
reason for our great success is that these principles inevitably rise to the
surface. One day, Gay men and women will be allowed to marry the person they
love and will be given the protection under law that all other married couples
receive. Each year more and more young voters, who recognize the positive
contributions the Gay community makes to our society and understand that their
lifestyle is indeed not threatened, increasingly support our inclusion in the
American dream. Utah may very well be the last to embrace it, but one day,
within my lifetime, I believe it will come.
Phantom | 9:06 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Lisa,
Regarding Proposition 8, part of the anger coming from non-members is in reaction to the hypocracy of the the L.D.S. Church - the discriminated becoming the discriminators.
What do you think a non-member is? A non-member is someone who has concluded the Church is false (believe me, you don't have to scratch too deep to come to that conclusion) and yet still has to live with the those who "believe" and want to impose their fragile reality on those who don't. Talk about frustrating... and you members should know better given your history.
So Lisa, continue to feed the L.D.S. corporation with your tithing dollars so they can oppress and discriminate against a segment of humanity that doesn't mesh with "Church" machine's profitability. Then ask YOURSELF, is such complicity Christ-like?
Regarding Proposition 8, part of the anger coming from non-members is in reaction to the hypocracy of the the L.D.S. Church - the discriminated becoming the discriminators.
What do you think a non-member is? A non-member is someone who has concluded the Church is false (believe me, you don't have to scratch too deep to come to that conclusion) and yet still has to live with the those who "believe" and want to impose their fragile reality on those who don't. Talk about frustrating... and you members should know better given your history.
So Lisa, continue to feed the L.D.S. corporation with your tithing dollars so they can oppress and discriminate against a segment of humanity that doesn't mesh with "Church" machine's profitability. Then ask YOURSELF, is such complicity Christ-like?
Mike Richards | 9:45 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Let's skip past the hand wringing and the crocodile tears being shed by the
pro-homosexual activists and look at the foundation of why they single out the
LDS Church in their anti-religion, anti-God parades.
Look at the birth of the LDS Church. Read the writings of the boy prophet Joseph Smith, who knelt in prayer before God and poured out his heart to our Father in Heaven. In answer, he had a vision of God the Father and of our Savior Jesus Christ. When Joseph asked which church he should join, he was told not to join any church. As time went on, Christ, through his servants restored the knowledge and the authority of his authorized church.
Those who have studied the LDS Church know that one church and one church only on the entire earth claims to be the restored church of Jesus Christ with full authority to act in His name and to do His work (including eternal marriage).
Just who do you suppose opposes the work of Jesus Christ? Just who do you suppose opposes eternal marriage? Just who do you suppose has fought against Christ since the beginning and will continue to fight against Christ's Church?
Look at the birth of the LDS Church. Read the writings of the boy prophet Joseph Smith, who knelt in prayer before God and poured out his heart to our Father in Heaven. In answer, he had a vision of God the Father and of our Savior Jesus Christ. When Joseph asked which church he should join, he was told not to join any church. As time went on, Christ, through his servants restored the knowledge and the authority of his authorized church.
Those who have studied the LDS Church know that one church and one church only on the entire earth claims to be the restored church of Jesus Christ with full authority to act in His name and to do His work (including eternal marriage).
Just who do you suppose opposes the work of Jesus Christ? Just who do you suppose opposes eternal marriage? Just who do you suppose has fought against Christ since the beginning and will continue to fight against Christ's Church?
Right on Lisa | 9:47 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Lisa- I totally agree with you. Well stated. There is a double standard out
there- the homosexuals don't live by what they preach.
CB | 9:55 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Interesting how some of those in our society, both consenting and the
'compassionate', will go through all kinds of machinations to try to
turn that which is evil into a virtue. There are a host of failed societies
that testify to that truth.
Robert Oh | 9:57 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
You can't poke a hornet's nest and then complain when you get stung.
...well you can, but you just look silly.
Your leaders messed up. This is one of those times you always talk about them being just men and not always speaking for God.
Your leaders messed up. This is one of those times you always talk about them being just men and not always speaking for God.
jackhp | 10:10 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
There's not much worse than a self-righteous, religiously intolerant person
with a persecution complex (is it obvious to whom I am speaking?).
re:mark | 10:10 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
for a minute there it sounded like you were talking about gays. The door swings
both ways. I see no tolerance on the end of the gay spectrum. Where is it?
Hypocrits of biblical proportions.
Gus Talwynd | 10:22 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
So be offended. Big deal. These folks are offended by the position you take
limiting their civil rights. The role of the LDS church in motivating their
membership to both contribute to the funding and actively participate in
protests against gay marriage and in support of Proposition 8 is known.
Did you participate in supporting Proposition 8 and in effect protest the legal right of homosexuals to marry? I'm sure that many people, including those participating in the SLC protest, were offended by your behavior and actions.
You are probably a major supporter of the War in Iraq and President Bush, hence you probably get offended with the protests directed against these also. This only means that some people get offended when others don't support the policies they support and voice their opinions publicly.
Finally, I suspect you will find my post to be offensive. Too bad. This is a democracy and the Constitution allows for a redress of grievances, such as banning same sex marriage in California.
I, personally, find many attitudes and actions of others offensive. That's just how it works.
Did you participate in supporting Proposition 8 and in effect protest the legal right of homosexuals to marry? I'm sure that many people, including those participating in the SLC protest, were offended by your behavior and actions.
You are probably a major supporter of the War in Iraq and President Bush, hence you probably get offended with the protests directed against these also. This only means that some people get offended when others don't support the policies they support and voice their opinions publicly.
Finally, I suspect you will find my post to be offensive. Too bad. This is a democracy and the Constitution allows for a redress of grievances, such as banning same sex marriage in California.
I, personally, find many attitudes and actions of others offensive. That's just how it works.
lindaj in California | 10:27 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Protesting the LDS Church and its temple is shameful. The gay lesbian group
remind me of 2 year olds having a major temper tantrum. These are the facts.
The voters of California, which included LDS members, voted against gay
marriage. A coaltion of churches was involved, including Catholics, Jews and
Protestants. Members of the LDS Church in California chose of their own free
will to become involved because we believe in the sanctity of marriage. We gave
what money we could. We stood up for what we believe. It was the voters right
to make a choice. The diverse society of California chose to ban gay marriages.
The Black American community came to vote for Obama and voted to ban gay
marriages as well. That is what put Yes on Prop. 8 over the top. Theirs was the
deciding vote. If you want to discuss hatred look at those who protested the LA
Temple and defaced Church property. That is a hate crime. If the gay/lesbians
want sympathy they need to change their tactics and get their facts straight.
They owe the LDS Church an apology for their hateful behavior.
RangerGordon | 10:29 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
It is one thing to voice one's opinion. It is another thing to use the rule
of law to deny others equal rights.
Roseparker | 10:52 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Lisa: Now let me get this right, the mormon church in no way helped defeat the
idea of allowing gays to marry in California. No Utah mormons were encouraged
to send money or make phone calls to California. The idea just suddenly
appeared out of nowhere, probably as a personal revelation from God. Oh,
brother! I doubt if you'll be able to comprehend this, but there are very
many gay people who view marraige as sacred. We very much believe in the
concept of family and become more than a little angry when our values are
trampled and treated as garbage as in Prop 8. I proudly marched in the protest
last night and will continue to fight on for equal rights for all of us.
Ernest T. Bass | 10:57 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Banning gay people from marriage isn't believing your religion, its
bigoted, nothing more and nothing less.
If you're so concerned about morals, isn't it better for gays to marry? The LDS, or any other church for that matter will never stop people from being gay, your simply stopping them from legal rights that you share.
You have no right to take away another person's right, especially when you cannot change their behavior.
My religion, the LDS Church, is dead WRONG on this and I'm ashamed.
If you're so concerned about morals, isn't it better for gays to marry? The LDS, or any other church for that matter will never stop people from being gay, your simply stopping them from legal rights that you share.
You have no right to take away another person's right, especially when you cannot change their behavior.
My religion, the LDS Church, is dead WRONG on this and I'm ashamed.
RedShirt | 11:04 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
To "mark | 2:22 a.m." do you realize that you can say nearly the same
thing of the gay community that you have written here?
dcc | 11:19 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
Your real god is money. I wonder how much the church skimmed of the top of the
donations.
Marc | 11:23 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
I simply don't understand how our beliefs are getting forced on to the GLBT
community. If anything, this community is attempting to force their belief that
marriage can be between two "consenting adults" regardless of sex when
the status quo has already and always been between man and woman. Sure, it
hasn't always been written down but it is a very strong social
understanding that has existed thousands of years. Homosexual
"marriage" has never existed before the 20th century, so where is your
argument that they can marry? We are simply supporting our belief that marriage
is between a man and a woman. You can have your domestic partnerships or civil
unions (depending each individual state's phraseology). It is true that
domestic partnerships in California have every right that a married couple has.
What is this really about?
Anon | 11:37 a.m. Nov. 8, 2008
The right to worship freely and the right to speak our beliefs freely are so
important that our Founding Fathers gave us the First Amendment.
The free-speech war is lost. Hate-speech, hate-crimes, and anti-discrimination laws now punish men for their words. "Oppressing," "intimidating," or causing "emotional distress" to - in other words, criticizing - members of a legally protected group in the exercise of their rights is a criminal act under hate-crimes laws.
Our God asks us to teach repentance and obedience to His commandments. Due to Proposition 8, we can now avoid falling afoul of hate-crimes laws in teaching God�s law of sexual morality by teaching that sex outside of marriage is sin; we no longer have need to directly criticize homosexual practices.
It will not stay this way. The US Supreme Court, in Lawrence V. Texas, demonstrated that it is willing to look to foreign legal precedence, in opposition to the Constitution, American legal precedence, and culture, to ensure the politically correct results - against Christianity. The American experiment in religious liberty ends when the Supremes rule against us.
Thank-you, California, for Proposition 8. Our persecutors must once again act illegally to attack us.
The free-speech war is lost. Hate-speech, hate-crimes, and anti-discrimination laws now punish men for their words. "Oppressing," "intimidating," or causing "emotional distress" to - in other words, criticizing - members of a legally protected group in the exercise of their rights is a criminal act under hate-crimes laws.
Our God asks us to teach repentance and obedience to His commandments. Due to Proposition 8, we can now avoid falling afoul of hate-crimes laws in teaching God�s law of sexual morality by teaching that sex outside of marriage is sin; we no longer have need to directly criticize homosexual practices.
It will not stay this way. The US Supreme Court, in Lawrence V. Texas, demonstrated that it is willing to look to foreign legal precedence, in opposition to the Constitution, American legal precedence, and culture, to ensure the politically correct results - against Christianity. The American experiment in religious liberty ends when the Supremes rule against us.
Thank-you, California, for Proposition 8. Our persecutors must once again act illegally to attack us.
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When it comes to tolerating you, you're right, I won't tolerate YOU forcing YOUR beliefs upon ME (and I won't apologize for it either).