Reader comments
Prop. 8 protest draws thousands in Salt Lake City
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To: Shilo | 2:32 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
You missed the point of To Heidi's comment. He or she said that homosexuals
are already welcome in the congregation, because Heidi claimed they
weren't. He said that the sin would never be changed to something
acceptable, not that they weren't allowed to come to church. It works the
same as any other sin. The behavior is wrong, but the people committing the
behavior are always welcome. It's just that they can't attend the
temple unless they're doing their very best to control those behaviors.
Jules | 2:33 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
People have a right to protest. The responses to this story show how we all
want to defend ourselves and many are spiteful. Is that what we're taught
at church? I must belong to a different church because mine, from its top
leaders, tell us to be tolerant and kind and not mean-spirited. I'm LDS
and support Prop 8 but I don't wish the protestors any ill feeling, even
when it is against the church I love and believe in.
Heidi in Wonderland | 2:42 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Yo, Shilo, I know exactly what I said, but you apparently don't know what
you read.
You took exception with: "Gays already are currently allowed in the congregrations. Sexual sin -- be it gay or straight -- will never be acceptable. The day when sexual sin is allowed will never arrive."
Where did I say that sinners aren't allowed in the congregations? Nowhere. Of course the congregations are filled with people who have sinned in every different kind of way. What I said was, "The day when sexual sin is allowed will never arrive." Sexual sin will never be condoned. In the same way, if adulterers want to protest around LDS Church buildings because they have been excommunicated for simply following their natural desires -- I would say the same thing ... it will never be condoned or accepted just because of protests, etc.
The Church doesn't change its stand based on the precepts -- or political correctness -- of man. It never has, it never will. That's all I'm sayin'.
You're preaching to the choir.
You took exception with: "Gays already are currently allowed in the congregrations. Sexual sin -- be it gay or straight -- will never be acceptable. The day when sexual sin is allowed will never arrive."
Where did I say that sinners aren't allowed in the congregations? Nowhere. Of course the congregations are filled with people who have sinned in every different kind of way. What I said was, "The day when sexual sin is allowed will never arrive." Sexual sin will never be condoned. In the same way, if adulterers want to protest around LDS Church buildings because they have been excommunicated for simply following their natural desires -- I would say the same thing ... it will never be condoned or accepted just because of protests, etc.
The Church doesn't change its stand based on the precepts -- or political correctness -- of man. It never has, it never will. That's all I'm sayin'.
You're preaching to the choir.
Comments continue below
Jack | 2:46 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Jill, please don't cancel your holiday vacation to Salt Lake because you
don't want your kids to be around that kind of narrow influence. I'm
sure the bigoted protesters will be long gone by then!
John Pack Lambert | 2:51 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
I did not post the 1:54 comments. I take major, major issues at people using
my name in making posts. This is very disturbing to have others steal my
identity.
I have to admit that this is the only race I really deep down cared about. Prop 8 passing is what makes it so I am happy right now.
I have to admit that this is the only race I really deep down cared about. Prop 8 passing is what makes it so I am happy right now.
IMAN | 2:52 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Re: Active Citizen.
The world is a dangerous place because of the type of people who supported prop 8.
The world is a dangerous place because of the type of people who supported prop 8.
An Eye for an Eye | 2:53 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Hey, Jill, I'll see the cancellation of your family trip to Utah and raise
you by aborting my family's planned trip to San Francisco because I
don't want to subject my kids to the "All's well in Sodom and
Gomorrah" attitude.
Now, have we really accomplished anything?
I guess "Wow" is in the eye of the beholder.
Now, have we really accomplished anything?
I guess "Wow" is in the eye of the beholder.
Valentina | 3:02 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Hey Bored,
I can't think of a better thing to do on any night than standing up for Civil Rights. In fact, I couldn't think of anything better to do on Saturday night, which is why I was out marching in LA with thousands of other people, gay and straight, who think that taking away the rights of American citizens is absolutely wrong.
Even our Republican governor told us not to give up and expect it will be deemed unconstitutional.
I can't think of a better thing to do on any night than standing up for Civil Rights. In fact, I couldn't think of anything better to do on Saturday night, which is why I was out marching in LA with thousands of other people, gay and straight, who think that taking away the rights of American citizens is absolutely wrong.
Even our Republican governor told us not to give up and expect it will be deemed unconstitutional.
Laura | 3:03 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
I don't know about you but our Sacrament meeting was packed on Sunday. No
empty seats.
Anonymous | 3:10 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
To Fact vs. Myths
What part of No didn't we understand? The part that says that you and the millions of dollars that Mormons donated shouldn't be able to amend a constitution to ALLOW discrimination. Talk about going backwards.
What part of No didn't we understand? The part that says that you and the millions of dollars that Mormons donated shouldn't be able to amend a constitution to ALLOW discrimination. Talk about going backwards.
Annoyed | 3:19 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
The Gay Protest is getting pathetic. They have come to violence to get what they
want. I have to agree that they have ticked a lot of people off. Those who have
been victimized by their violence and tantrums are better people for what they
have gone through. Gays are not earning people's respect at all.
Fred | 3:38 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Just like babies they through a "HISSY FIT" They claim to be
tolerant. Only Tolerant of anythng they agree with.
It just shows what a bunch of babies they are. They will go away soon enough.
It just shows what a bunch of babies they are. They will go away soon enough.
Re Annoyed 3:19 pm | 3:40 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Violence? The article I read said the demostration was peaceful. Regardless of
where you sit on the Prop 8 issue, I for one am still extremely grateful to live
in a country where freedom of speech is preserved. That's all I have to
say about that.
A civil rights issue, Yeah right | 3:44 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Any of you remember how the civil rights of the FLDS were trampled in Texas. I
don�t agree with polygamy, the laws that stand with
polygamy and same-sex marriage are fine with me. Just want to know where all
these equal rights protesters were when the FLDS civil rights volition occurred.
Seem the streets were pretty quite then. Is just that it is ok some civil right
volition take place, just alone as they are ok with you.
Annoyed | 3:51 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
To Reply at 3:19pm.
Read more articles! They have attacked people, vandalized churches, ect.
This is what you call freedom of speech?
And that is all I have to say about that!
Read more articles! They have attacked people, vandalized churches, ect.
This is what you call freedom of speech?
And that is all I have to say about that!
Just Curious | 3:55 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Are they going to the headquarters of the NAACP to protest next? After all, 75%
of black voters voted in favor of Prop 8.
realitycheck | 4:00 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
religion is based on hypocricy and a reduction of civil rights. It's too
bad when we have to bow to religious fanatics, like the mormon church.
I'll be back | 4:06 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Hey, Valentina, if your governor Ahnuld had any gravitas, he would have made a
stand before the vote. If the proposition was unconstitutional, they should have
not let it on the ballot.
You have judges writing their own laws, saying something is contrary to the state constitution. So the constitution is legally amended by the vote of your citizens -- and now you want to hide behind your liberal judges again?
Talk about subverting the Constitution.
What wooden, second-rate actor are you going to elect next? Keanu Reeves?
You have judges writing their own laws, saying something is contrary to the state constitution. So the constitution is legally amended by the vote of your citizens -- and now you want to hide behind your liberal judges again?
Talk about subverting the Constitution.
What wooden, second-rate actor are you going to elect next? Keanu Reeves?
Frank | 4:10 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
popular culture is based on hypocricy, excess, addiction, and regret and the
elimination of freedom. It's too bad when we have to bow to secular
fanatics.
oh what fun | 4:21 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
the funnest part about being a yes on 8 supporter was when we got to follow
every voter into the voting booth and put a gun to their head and threaten to
shoot them if they didnt vote yes. Say all you want, the people spoke and said
no to gay marriage without threat or coercion. What a the gays doing now?
Threatening. What a bunch of hot air.
Bert | 4:26 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
By all means - feel hurt, protest, live whatever lifestyle you like - BUT
Don't try and normalise your inappropriate behaviour by covering it in the cloak of respectability by using the term 'marriage'. That has been reserved for the relationship between a man and a woman.
If you wish a term - go for it - be creative - come up with your own - one that clearly describes to all your situation and DIFFERENTIATES it from the current understanding of marriage. It is not the same and never will be.
This is not mean spirited - it is a 'stand up and fight' reaction in response to a proposed erosion of something that is valued in society.
Don't try and normalise your inappropriate behaviour by covering it in the cloak of respectability by using the term 'marriage'. That has been reserved for the relationship between a man and a woman.
If you wish a term - go for it - be creative - come up with your own - one that clearly describes to all your situation and DIFFERENTIATES it from the current understanding of marriage. It is not the same and never will be.
This is not mean spirited - it is a 'stand up and fight' reaction in response to a proposed erosion of something that is valued in society.
Michelle | 4:47 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Times change and laws change. I hope gay marriage is one day accepted by all
people. The posts on this board make me sad. I strongly believe in loving
everyone. I guess I might be the only one . .
re: oh what fun | 5:27 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
"What are the gays doing now?"
Protesting centuries of hatred towards people like them. Prop 8 just happens to be the backdrop.
Protesting centuries of hatred towards people like them. Prop 8 just happens to be the backdrop.
X-LDS | 5:35 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Boycott all Tourist spots In Ca + Utah !!! Hit'em where it hurts in the
pocket book!!
Roger Carrier | 5:35 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
If you oppose gay marriage, then so be it, but don't try to shove your
opinion down other people's throats. There is nothing wrong with being gay
and having a loving gay relationship.
I'm not gay, but I follow the philosophy of live and let live. I've been around 62 years and married forty years, and I've found that works best.
Quit concentrating on what your neighbors are doing in the bedroom. As long as they are consenting adults, it is none of your business.
I'm not gay, but I follow the philosophy of live and let live. I've been around 62 years and married forty years, and I've found that works best.
Quit concentrating on what your neighbors are doing in the bedroom. As long as they are consenting adults, it is none of your business.
Roger Carrier | 5:41 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
No, you're not the only one. I'm an old guy and married a long time.
Live and let live is my philosophy Gay marriage will be good for America.
Live Your Life | 5:55 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
In the Words of T.I. .........Stop looking at what you ain't got and be
thankful for what you got!
Michelle, my belle | 5:57 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Yes, Michelle -- you quite possibly are the only one in the entire world with
love for everyone. (Sigh -- you must be so lonely up there in your ivory
tower.)
I thought I loved everyone, but have since learned from recent protests that if my opinion is different from somebody else's then my feelings must stem from hatred not from a greater love.
Personally, I love people who make non-sensical declarative posts. (So, Michelle, wink, wink, you wanna get together later?)
I thought I loved everyone, but have since learned from recent protests that if my opinion is different from somebody else's then my feelings must stem from hatred not from a greater love.
Personally, I love people who make non-sensical declarative posts. (So, Michelle, wink, wink, you wanna get together later?)
and when the day | 6:22 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
comes that my son marries a man...it will be the END..the END...riders on the
storm!
Majority Rules??? | 6:31 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
I've seen many posts touting the fact that the majority has spoken and get
over it...
May I remind some that the will of the majority, if unjust, is still unjust. Southerners overwhelmingly supported Jim Crow and segregation, but the activist judges on the Supreme Court overturned the will of the majority on constitutional grounds.
How is this any different? I just read the 100 page decision of the Cal. Sup. Ct. and it puts this issue squarely within the fundamental right of marriage acknowledged in the Cal. state constitution. From a legal standpoint, it seems Prop 8 does nothing more than resurrect Prop 22 from 2000. It will be overturned again and rightly so - popular will holds no trump card over fundamental rights...
May I remind some that the will of the majority, if unjust, is still unjust. Southerners overwhelmingly supported Jim Crow and segregation, but the activist judges on the Supreme Court overturned the will of the majority on constitutional grounds.
How is this any different? I just read the 100 page decision of the Cal. Sup. Ct. and it puts this issue squarely within the fundamental right of marriage acknowledged in the Cal. state constitution. From a legal standpoint, it seems Prop 8 does nothing more than resurrect Prop 22 from 2000. It will be overturned again and rightly so - popular will holds no trump card over fundamental rights...
Duh | 6:57 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Ohhh everyone is going to boycott Utah. Give me a break, for every boycotter
there are 3 wanting to come see what Utah is all about. Go ahead, stay away, I
won't lose sleep over it. Tourism will be just fine. I bet we see an
increase because of the controversy. Most people don't even give credence
to boycotts. I don't have to accept homosexuals, I can tolerate them but I
don't have to accept your values just like you have the right to refuse
mine. Don't cry fowl when you all preach the same thing, just with a
different face. You cry about how your rights are tramped on and then jump on
the religous trampling bus and dish out your own. If a church wants to stand up
for their beliefs, it is no different then your religious organizations that
stand up for your Homosexual beliefs. We have the right to decide what we want
in our state. When and if it ever gets defeated in ours, I won't shed a
tear over it. I just won't accept it.
Mary Ann | 7:19 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Sad and very sad is what we have become as LDS. I think a little better tact
could be used. It is sad that lay people comment without any intellegence, it
makes us look bad. Right message, wrong people. I would feel it appropriate that
the Prophet speak up about this and give it straight. I am soooooo tired of John
Pack Lambert and the such. Lets hear the skinny form the source and maybe quell
this argument.
hey | 7:28 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
It is interesting to see the Gay comunity show their true colors.
Jamie | 7:30 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Re: Mary Ann
It may be sad for you, but it is not sad for me. I plan to stay firm and stand up for what's right. NO MORE GAYS. The medical world needs to figure out what to do with these people who have weird sex with the same sex. It make NO SENSE--THAT's THAT!
It may be sad for you, but it is not sad for me. I plan to stay firm and stand up for what's right. NO MORE GAYS. The medical world needs to figure out what to do with these people who have weird sex with the same sex. It make NO SENSE--THAT's THAT!
John Pack Lambert | 7:33 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
This is absurd! I'm the real John Pack Lambert and whomever posted at 2:51
is being deceitful and rude. I really think we need to relax and worry about the
real issues. (The economy, terrorism, health care.)Like I stated earlier, I
don't see this ballot measure as an attack on my family.
Brandon | 8:09 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Homosexuality is sinful? I can think of a greater sin.
John Pack Lambert | 8:12 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
The person at 7:33 may be named John Pack Lambert, I do not know, although I
have a very, very, strong suspicion that he is not, however he is not the John
Pack Lambert who has posted over and over and over again on these boards, and
who has been attacked and maligned many times.
I am not even convinced that this new John Pack Lambert knows what this ballot measure is. Is he saying he has homosexual family members and does not see it attacking them, or does he think it would legalize same-sex marriage and mean that.
I guess that is consistent with his insitence that the issue does not matter, however his repetative posting on the issue, including trying to claim the name is not.
I have to admit I find it very suspicious that the one other person who attempts to use a real three name post somehow mysteriously happenes to have the same name as me.
I am not even convinced that this new John Pack Lambert knows what this ballot measure is. Is he saying he has homosexual family members and does not see it attacking them, or does he think it would legalize same-sex marriage and mean that.
I guess that is consistent with his insitence that the issue does not matter, however his repetative posting on the issue, including trying to claim the name is not.
I have to admit I find it very suspicious that the one other person who attempts to use a real three name post somehow mysteriously happenes to have the same name as me.
Deedra | 8:26 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Oh, PLEASE! John Pack Lambert. You post so often that you probably forgot what
you posted or when you posted. Their are several of you on all blogs, and who
always fight over who is John pack Lambert. Geeze! No one cares who you three
guys are. Perhaps you should take a break and get over yourself.
No on is attacking your family. Your family isn't being singled out from millions of others... Geeze! You need to get a grip, and just stick with prop-8. And try to relax.
No on is attacking your family. Your family isn't being singled out from millions of others... Geeze! You need to get a grip, and just stick with prop-8. And try to relax.
To Brandon | 8:43 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Homosexuality is a sin--there is no greater sin, next to murder and adultery.
Enough already | 8:49 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Holy Crap. Read all these comments from us and it is no wonder we are hated so
much. Just stop it people we are embarassing ourselves. Enough now! The people
have voted let it die!!
John Pack Lambert | 8:58 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
To Deedra,
You have not had someone try to steal their identity like I have.
I know what I posted, and I know what I did not post, and I have never posted that I think this is other than an important issue.
How could I post such and be consistent with following the direction of the First Presidency?
You have not had someone try to steal their identity like I have.
I know what I posted, and I know what I did not post, and I have never posted that I think this is other than an important issue.
How could I post such and be consistent with following the direction of the First Presidency?
Dang Deedra! | 10:26 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
John Pack Lambert is happy that Prop 8 passed. Let's just keep it at that.
John | 10:29 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
To all LDS members who disagree with the Church's stance on Proposition 8,
think of this. If the LDS Church does not perform gay weddings in the temples,
gays could sue the Church for discrimination and the temples would be shut down
for not being in compliance with new legislation. The Church would also lose
their tax-exempt status. The Church had to make a stand to prevent temples from
being shut down.
the election is over | 11:03 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
You lost. Deal with it like an American, or go to one of the tyrannical
countries like Venezuela where they use arguments and anger like yours every day
to justify their anti-social behavior. They'll be more "loving"
and "tolerant" of you in their own special way.
Miss Analogy | 11:05 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Next we should get all the students who hate going to school to march on the
district office to demand they abolish all the schools. And while
we�re at it, playing in the street is good fun but people
tell me I can�t, who are they to tell me how to live my
life? I have my rights! Lets vote to let people play in the street to their
hearts� content!
Roger Carrier | 11:08 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
You can't vote to take away the rights of the minority. That's the
problem, and that's why people are stirred. It's not about Mormonism.
It's about the policy of the present LDS leadership. And guess what? It
will gradually change as people fifty and older die off.
I'm 62 and think this whole debate will look very strange in 2020. On July 1, 2020--if I'm still alive at seventy-four--I'll be standing on the steps of the Utah State Capitol Building saying, "Look, I told you, gay marriage was not the end of the world, and it turned out to be good for America."
Mormons may still not allow gay marriage, but it will be legal in most places, maybe even the entire country. It's legal in Spain and elsewhere, and nothing terrible has happened.
PS: I like Mormons and think they are Christians.
I'm 62 and think this whole debate will look very strange in 2020. On July 1, 2020--if I'm still alive at seventy-four--I'll be standing on the steps of the Utah State Capitol Building saying, "Look, I told you, gay marriage was not the end of the world, and it turned out to be good for America."
Mormons may still not allow gay marriage, but it will be legal in most places, maybe even the entire country. It's legal in Spain and elsewhere, and nothing terrible has happened.
PS: I like Mormons and think they are Christians.
RexidaWyo_NC | 11:13 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
On photo 8 that accompanies this article there is a sign held up which reads
"When do I get to vote on your marriage?" The answer to that is or
was on November 4, 2008. That is when the ballot measure read that marriage
would be defined as between a man and a woman. It says nothing about between a
homosexual and another homosexual. Therefore the measure was about my marriage
and my marriage won. Get over it. The people have spoken.
The sad thing about this issue is not that any group lost, it is the fact that our country is turning in a direction that is so foreign to our constitutional foundation. There are groups that are striving with their might to take away all rights to stand for virtue and morality. They mock the very moral base that this nation were founded on and now they want to shut the mouths of those that are just now starting to push back.
You may rally. You may have the courts overturn again the vote of the people. But virtue is virtue, sin is sin, and those that are with us way outnumber those against us.
The sad thing about this issue is not that any group lost, it is the fact that our country is turning in a direction that is so foreign to our constitutional foundation. There are groups that are striving with their might to take away all rights to stand for virtue and morality. They mock the very moral base that this nation were founded on and now they want to shut the mouths of those that are just now starting to push back.
You may rally. You may have the courts overturn again the vote of the people. But virtue is virtue, sin is sin, and those that are with us way outnumber those against us.
alan | 11:32 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Why are Mormons so surprised that they are the target for those that lost the
right to marry the one they loved. The Church members under direction of Church
leadership orchestrated 70% of the funding and 80% of the footwork. Volunteer
sheets were passed around Priesthood meetings every week. So now the Church can
be proud that they imposed their religious beliefs on an entire state. The
Church can also be proud that they got this vote by distorting the truth and in
some cases outright lying in the Yes on 8 TV ads. And do you believe you have
opened hearts to hear the gospel? What do you think the reaction will be from
almost half of the states population that supported not taking away the right to
marry from couples that love each other? A gospel of love? Hardly. Has the
Church forgotten so soon what it felt like when their constitutional rights were
voted on by the state of Illinois? And yes, allowing everyone the right to
marry was a constitutional right that has been taken away. So now the Church is
just going to have to pay the price for its role.
Plain & Simple | 11:34 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
Marriage definitions:
Judicial activism is not leadership; it is judicial tyranny. The California George court has placed our society on a slippery slope that is steep and icy with the outcome below if it is not overturned by upholding Prop 8.
Group 1; Yes on 8; Narrowest definition; marriage is the union of a man and a woman as husband and wife. Source of authority; God, history, all cultures, religions and societies, legal precednt, common law, all dictionaries.
Group 2; No on 8; Broader definition; same as above plus domestic partnerships. Source of authority; 4-3 vote In re Marriages, acknowledges domestic partnerships as having the same or nearly the same substantive rights as marriage, but having two names (marriage & domestic partnerships) they don't provide the same dignity and respect; therfor impinging on the right to marry.
Group 3; Future plaintiffs; broadest definition; same as Group 2, plus parent to child, sibling to sibling, man to beast, & multiple spouses. Source of authority; In re Marriage page 6, "The core substantive rights include, most fundamentally, the opportunity of an individual to establish. . . and entitled to the same respect and dignity acorded a union traditionally designated as marriage."
Judicial activism is not leadership; it is judicial tyranny. The California George court has placed our society on a slippery slope that is steep and icy with the outcome below if it is not overturned by upholding Prop 8.
Group 1; Yes on 8; Narrowest definition; marriage is the union of a man and a woman as husband and wife. Source of authority; God, history, all cultures, religions and societies, legal precednt, common law, all dictionaries.
Group 2; No on 8; Broader definition; same as above plus domestic partnerships. Source of authority; 4-3 vote In re Marriages, acknowledges domestic partnerships as having the same or nearly the same substantive rights as marriage, but having two names (marriage & domestic partnerships) they don't provide the same dignity and respect; therfor impinging on the right to marry.
Group 3; Future plaintiffs; broadest definition; same as Group 2, plus parent to child, sibling to sibling, man to beast, & multiple spouses. Source of authority; In re Marriage page 6, "The core substantive rights include, most fundamentally, the opportunity of an individual to establish. . . and entitled to the same respect and dignity acorded a union traditionally designated as marriage."
Plain & Simple | 11:40 p.m. Nov. 10, 2008
To Ekaternia: "I think the LDS church should have its tax exempt status
revoked...It would help our economy. Don't be so limited in your thinking
of helping the economy. Go after all the coalition churchs, and all the
churches addvocating liberal views.
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