Deseret News | Don't vote for socialism

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Readers' forum: Don't vote for socialism

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Roland Kayser | 12:17 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

The American tide has been rising steadily for years, yet it seems to lift up the yachts much higher than the boats.

GeeBee | 12:24 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

Yesterday it was "oogah-boogah...LIBERAL!", now today it's "oogah-boogah...SOCIALISM!"...and we all see through the Limbaughistic smoke and mirrors. It's been socialism for the wealthy the past 8 years, why can't the "JOE SIXPACKS" have a turn?

Joe Moe | 1:20 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

Pretty well said. There's been a lot of talk about socialism on these pages the last couple of days, and because a cough is keeping me up late I think I get the first comment here:

Please, please remember: socialism is not the same as communism, so don't let's get extreme.

Obama is no communist, but he is quite socialist. Our nation has become continually more socialist over the years, with a little braking from Reagan. It's not just Obama. Even McCain has some socialism in him, like W. And Europe has a lot.

If you are fine with socialistic ideas and policies, then have some courage and stand up and say so -- don't play word games.

If you are against socialistic ideas, then by all means say so, but don't argue that it's communism, and don't deny that even a lot of Republicans have been "tolerating" it more and more -- it's not just a Democrat thing.

Comments continue below

Obama is a disaster | 1:46 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

You are about to witness the end of this country as we know it if you see this fraud become President. He isn't qualified to run a medium sized company let alone manage the largest economy and most powerful military in the world. Why is this charlatan succeeding? He promises the masses a free lunch just like Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao and all the other socialists in history. Those of you who are supporting him deserve who you get.

Gary, Gary, Gary | 1:47 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

Do you HONESTLY think that you can write some lame rant and somebody is going to change their mind? We're all having our own internal dialogue about the election here. We're not going to wake up one morning, pick up the paper, and say: "Oh! Gary here says I shouldn't vote for Obama. His wildly inaccurate and irresponsible allegations of socialism have definitely changed my entire political stance. Furthermore, I've been cowed by his charges of "anti-americanism" and therefore am going to vote however Gary tells me to vote."
GET REAL GARY. Your awful letter has only served to further convince me I am doing the right thing to vote against whatever party a zealot like you is attached to. And by the way: labelling anybody who doesn't agree with you anti-american and anti-freedom is dangerously fascist. It is not what this country is about. It reeks of McCarthy era witch hunting and intimidation. It is your sickening slanders, Gary, that are Anti-American.
Your letter is encouraging in one aspect however. It shows your blinding fear of Obama's imminent election. :) :) Something the vast majority of America is enthusiastically looking forward to.

Sunshine | 1:58 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

Mr. Jaggi,
Just because people disagree with you view, doesnï¿½t mean we are not voting ï¿½honestly and responsibly.ï¿½ Has it ever occurred to you that we may be right?

I'm voting for freedom | 5:35 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

I'm voting for individual responsibility. That's why I'm rejecting McCain and voting for Obama.

Greg | 6:47 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

Yes....step up and drink the kool-aid....vote for Obama....no consequences......just follow Obama the socialist puppet off the cliff.

What is wrong with socialism? | 6:51 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

If socialism is defined as taxing CEO's more, for money they really don't merit and didn't earn, in order to give this money to the workers, who did the actual work and did earn it, if this is socialism, then what is wrong with socialism?

Anonymous | 6:59 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

With intelligence and responsibility, I shall vote for obama.

oh brother | 7:03 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

Is anybody else tired of the "right" trying to scare us into submission. I for one have had enough and have already cast my vote for Obama.

LOL | 8:16 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

"You are about to witness the end of this country as we know it" Wow, that is hyperbole. It must be Halloween because Im so scared.
Obama in a landslide!

RedShirt | 8:16 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

TO "What is wrong with socialism? | 6:51 a.m. " socialism is more than taxing CEO's more. It is about taking the incentive away to create new jobs. It punishes thoes who succeed. It is the intermediate step between capitalism and communism. It takes money away from thoes that have it and gives it to thoes who did not earn it. It makes you more dependant on the government. The things that it takes away are greater than what it gives back. Do you really think that the idiots in Washington that created, then failed to oversee Freddie and Fannie can or will properly oversee any program they implement?

RedShirt | 8:21 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

To "I'm voting for freedom | 5:35 a.m." how can you say that you are "voting for individual responsibility" when Obama is on record for wanting national healthcare (you are no longer individually responsible for healthcare), for having forced volunteerism, for wanting to take money away from successful people and give it to thoes who did not work for it? Please explain how any of Obama's policies encourage personal responsibility!

Voting | 8:28 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

Get real. By your sad letter, what Bush has done the past 8 years qualifies as socialism, not to mention the $700 billion bailout proposed (government taking ownership of banks). Republicans and Democrats in this country are pushing socialist policies like never before. Now the Republicans are playing the most insidious game - accusing your opponent of what you, yourself are doing. It won't work, the American people are tired of the antics and ready for a change. Obama will win, get used to it!

what a pleasant group of people | 8:29 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

Marcia Stirman, the chairwoman of a New Mexico women's GOP group, didn't expect everyone to get so upset about a letter to the editor she sent to a local paper. But apparently calling the Democratic presidential nominee "a Muslim socialist" makes people mad these days. Who knew?

In the letter, Stirman also wrote, "I believe Muslims are our enemies" and "I believe war is a fact of life and we should always win."

The missive has inspired condemnation from a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations. But Stirman doesn't mind. In an interview with the Associated Press, she said, referring to Muslims, "I don't trust them at all. They've sworn across the world that they are our enemies. Why we're trying to elect one is beside me ... I still have freedom of speech and an opinion. If the Islamic group doesn't like it, well, I don't like what's going on in their camp, either."

According to the AP, officials with the New Mexico Republican Party had no comment.

Alex | 8:51 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

I've yet to see how taxing the wealthy more and taxing the middle class less amounts to socialism which, as it has been pointed out, is not communism.

Nihilist | 9:12 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

The right has dug its own grave on this one. They continue to keep the wealth in the hands of the few and wonder why people want change. I say spread the wealth around, because those that can give raises are giving raises only to themselves. Socialism freakin' rules!

Bush = Socialiasm = McCain | 9:19 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

I think the writer is referring to the Republican administration which pushed a plan to nationalize the banks, restrict "certain types" of trades in our free stock market, government ownership of insurance agencies.

John McCain suspended his campaign to help develop that socialist buyout.

Lionheart | 9:23 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

Taxes: Taxes change behavior, distorts and twist cause and effect. For instance walk down a canal street in Amstedam, all the house are narrow and long. Odd looking actually, why, because they were taxed on frontage footage. Therefore they made the houses incongruously narrow. The rich are paying the majority of taxes in this country already. Their behavior will change under taxation, to perserve their wealth. For the people on the receiving end of the government largess, they will also change their behavior, many times living profligate and useless lives. Tax more and there will be less to go around. There is nothing you can do about this, it is a fact and socialism is a very precarious way stop on the way to communism. A completely distorting idealogy, only supported by fear and force.

Gus Talwynd | 9:32 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

"Socialism".

Is the letter writer concerned about the government owning the means of production and distribution of goods and services? If so, it is recommended that he rethink his hypothesis and reconsider his position.

Grimble | 9:44 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

Let's take a journey back in time, to the days before John McCain traded his integrity for the evangelical vote:
================================================
Audience member: Why is it that someone like my father who goes to school for 13 years gets penalized in a huge tax bracket because he's a doctor?

John McCain: I think it's to some degree because we feel obviously that wealthy people can afford more.

Audience member: Are we getting closer and closer to, like, socialism 'n stuff?

McCain: Here's what I really believe: That when you reach a certain level of comfort, there's nothing wrong with paying somewhat more.
=====================================

You want it... You got it | 9:56 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

The younger generation seems to be the ones who want Obama and his social programs. I get the feeling THEY will control the outcome of the election (and so it should be). Because THEY will be the ones who have to pay for these programs in increased tax burden throughout their lifetime.

I am about ready to retire, so my income will be degligable and I will be covered by Medicare, so it doesn't make much difference to me.

Personally the thing I don't understand is... The elderly already have government paid healthcare (Medicare), the poor already have government paid healthcare (Medicaid) and low income families have government paid healthcare (CHIP for children and PPS or something for adults). So it seems that all this fuss is about insuring people who are working but their employers don't want to provide benefits and the employees don't want to save and pay for their own benefits.

It just seems like a heavy burden to put on our children for the rest of their working lives. But if they want this burden, they'll get it.

I know Obama promises only the 'rich' will fund these programs, but that can't work. Social-programs-where-the-WHOLE-population-funds-programs-for-a-small-minority-sort-of-work(like-Medicaid/Medicare/Social-Security/etc). But-expecting-a-small-percentage-of-the-population-to-carry-the-load-for-the-WHOLE-population-doesn't-work.--It-just-can't-work.--These-people-would-just-be-'Slaves'-to-the-Government.--Working-as-hard-as-they-can-but-reaping-NO-REWARD,becuase-the-State-confescates-almost-everything-they-earn.

JWW | 10:10 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

Laws passed by BOTH Republicans and Democrats have taken us down the socialist road and bigger government. Look at what the two major parties have done and not what they say. The ONLY way not to vote for someone willing to take us further from the Constitution and closer to Communism is to vote third party.

Oh Please | 10:22 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

By your own definition of socialism, no candidate is proposing it. So why all the bluster?

jce0609 | 10:29 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

Rising tide has swamped all but 1% of the boats. Production up, profits up, wages down. Turn of the Faux news and actually look at the facts.

jce0609 | 10:31 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

Who favors spreading the wealth, those great socialist like Thomas Jefferson, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet. When the wealth is not spread throughout a populace and is concentrated in hte top 1% violent revolution is pretty much a given, look at history, Great Britain, Russia and France have already learned this lesson.

Solution | 10:38 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

Vote third party, especially someone who will bring true solutions to the table. That is why I'm now voting for Chuck Baldwin (endorsed by Ron Paul).

jce0609 | 10:41 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

redshirt, please tell me what the four top hedge fund managers did to collectively earn over $1,000,000,000,000 (yes the 0's are correct)over the last year. Did they manufacture something you use, did they provide sevice you availed yourself of? No they gambled with other peoples money and helped precipitate our current booming economy. FYI Hedge funds usually make their profits by selling short(selling something you don't actually own)profits only occur when stocks decline.

Nonconlib | 10:54 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

What the folks crying "Socialist, socialist!" don't understand is that the fundamental problem with our economy is its gross inequality. When the wealthy receive a disproportionate share (as they have for decades now), they don't spend it all on consumer goods and services. They invest a good portion of it in new productive capacity. The Reactive Right will say this goes to create new jobs. Yes, but most of those jobs are in Third World countries. The end result of this disparity in wealth is that the lower and middle classes do not have sufficient disposable income to buy all the products that this reinvestment is creating and that companies need to sell in order to keep their stockholders happy. But we've all been trained well in our responsibilities. We go ahead and buy anyway, on credit. Does any of this ring true as you look at our immense debt crisis and increasing inequality (47 million who can't afford health insurance, for instance)? The only real solution is to share not just income but ownership, so that newly created capital goes not just to the wealthy but to the workers who created it.

Ultra Bob | 11:01 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

It is the right wing conservatives that have changed the meaning of certain words into something bad. Liberal and socialism are two words that were not originally bad but now have come to mean evil and bad things.

Social is a word that pertains to people and socialism really refers to "peopleism". For conservatives socialism is something evil and bad, for ordinary people socialism is simply people who combine their efforts for the benefit of all.

The conservatives fear and despise anything that threatens their positions of superiority over other people (which socialism does). And so they try to make people believe that socialism is something evil and bad. But it is really nothing more than people working together.

Lionheart | 11:23 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

jce0609: Well the revolutions haven't worked in Mexico and South America, quasi-socialist, socialist and communist countries, they just change the wealthy for wealthy thugs.

Inigo Montoya | 11:48 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

Socialism? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Samuel | 11:54 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008

The problem with this election is that the two prime candidates are both socialists, to one degree or another. There is no one running that has any credibility in the anti-socialist arena. Me? I will vote third party this election.

It's amazing | 12:22 p.m. Oct. 23, 2008

The pompus voice of many of you people proclamining your intent to vote for Obama, and the superior intelegence needed to come to that decision is amazing.

I don't care if you vote for Obama, but don't make it out to be some sort of sign of superior intelegence, a vote for individual responsibility or extra-special-patriotic-insight or something.

And the class war rhetoric is really getting thick in these postings. Why all the hate for CEOs? Do you really think the Government drives the economy and makes the jobs and the incomes in this country??? Or the CEOs?

What would Obama's tax base be if he got rid of all CEOs or taxed them till it wasn't worth doing the job?

Who would be willing to take the responsibility, the stress and the hard work of starting and running a company if there were no possible reward in it?

I know that sounds selfish, but it's just human nature, and something we need to deal with. Who wants to work harder and take more risk, with no possibility of reward (And if you somehow made a profit, the Government takes it)???

an evil group | 12:33 p.m. Oct. 23, 2008

The word SOCIALIST like the word LIBERAL has been hijacked, demonized and overused today by the Limbaughites for obvious political advantage.

In the same way, neocons have even demonized the words of Jesus Christ by ignoring his words of "feed your neighbors" "take care of the sick and needy", "blessed are the poor," "put away your swords", "love your enemies," "turn the other cheek"
The more I think of it - I'm beginning to view neocons as evil.

potentially volatile people | 12:45 p.m. Oct. 23, 2008

The more I study so-called "conservatives"- their mannerisms, the way they express themselves, their nervous tics, etc. - the more I think its wise to keep an arm's length away from them.

Steven | 12:57 p.m. Oct. 23, 2008

When did helping others become socialism? The LDS Church doesn't get every members approval before it hands out social services. And by the way, individual responsibility in this country went out long ago. It's all about me, me, me!! If you need proof just look at the Utah Republican Party billboard campaign happening right now. "Vote honestly and responsibly"? Don't worry Gary, I already have. And I'll add proudly to that list.

get it all over with | 1:02 p.m. Oct. 23, 2008

I've got a great idea.
Why not get it all done at once?
Why not all you Limbaughites start right now and repeat these words over and over and over again, non-stop, for as long as they wish? Hours, days, weeks if you want.

Here are the two words:

SOCIALISM
LIBERAL

Now, on your mark. Get set. GO!!!

Bye-Bye CEOs | 1:05 p.m. Oct. 23, 2008

Any smart CEOs are packing up their company, their family and any wealth they have accumulated and heading to another country (where they are not hated by 50% of the population and the Government just sees them as cash-cows to be milked to pay for those who don't want to provide for their own needs).

We're already far way down this path.

NOTHING is manufactured in the United States anymore. Why manufacture anything in the United States when most of the population feels they are above these types of jobs and even if they were forced to do them (by a bad economy or government taking over job assignments) American's do a sloppy job and expect more money than workers in other countries.

All we want to do is get a job where we can sit in a nice air-conditioned office and not be expected to do anything, and if that doesn't pay enough, the government will take care of everything. After all, we are Americans! We are owed a higher standard of living than any other nation and all the benefits of our European counterparts!

talkin' down | 1:10 p.m. Oct. 23, 2008

Great letter Gary. Unfortunately we now get Socialism from both parties. Everyone who can't stand the thought of ending Social Security,taxpayer funded Medicare, School breakfast, lunch, pre-k, continuing ed and on and on better wake up and smell the coffee. At some point we have to stop printing money to pay for all these "wonderful"programs. Or maybe you like the thought of sky high interest rates and/or worthless currency.
At some point the Countries that finance our debt are going to decide that we can't pay it back.

Grover | 2:13 p.m. Oct. 23, 2008

The terms "wrong" and "right" need to be reserved for conversations about which church is true and should never be used for political debates. The Constitution didn't come down from Sinai as shown by the number of times it has been amended (slavery and universal suffrage being two glaring examples). One "side" wins and then screws up so that the other side comes into power. The Democrats are taking the world by storm this year for one reason only...they are NOT Republicans. It is the way of the world. Hang on long enough and your side with be in favor again.

Red | 2:21 p.m. Oct. 23, 2008

Roland Kayser 12:17 am: "The American tide has been rising steadily for years, yet it seems to lift up the yachts much higher than the boats."

It's even worse than that. In the last 20 years or so, *only* the yachts have been lifted. All of the economy's productivity gains have gone to the most affluent one percent, while Ninety-nine percent of Americans' real wages have steadily dropped.

Government sets the rules, and Government needs to put rules in place to encourage fat-cat corporate bosses to "spread the wealth" beyond their vanishingly small plutocratic circle.

This isn't "taking from producers to give to the idle;" it's making sure *all* producers -- not just top executives -- share the rewards their contributions produce.

Re "Steven | 12:57 p.m." | 2:23 p.m. Oct. 23, 2008

You're kidding right? You're not really that dumb. You don't really think Conservatives think any helping of anyone else is Socialism, right?

Socialism is when the Government takes over an industry and outlaws competition (like Hillary has proposed in her utopian healthcare system).

Obama's plan isn't as far left as Hillary's, but it can't survive. It will either have to gradually go back to a more privitized system, or go all the way to a government entitlement for all.

No individual wants to pay for his own insurance and healthcare costs if the government is providing the same thing for free. And no employer (who wants to remain competative) can afford to pay for their employee's benefits when other companies they compete with have opted to let the Goverenment take care of it for them.

Red | 2:31 p.m. Oct. 23, 2008

RedShirt 8:21 am: "... Obama is on record ... for wanting to take money away from successful people and give it to [those] who did not work for it?"

He's actually in favor of taking money away from well-connected CEOs and giving it to those whose work actually created it.

RedShirt | 2:36 p.m. Oct. 23, 2008

To "Grover | 2:13 p.m." why not use the terms right and wrong when it comes to politics. That is what more politicians should be asking. Was is right that the politicians added $150 million to the $700 million bailout package in pork spending?

Was it right for DC to outlaw handguns, against the Constitution?

Was it right that the CEO's of the oil companies were paraded in front of various comitties to account for oil prices, yet the heads of Freddie and Fannie have yet to receive the same questioning?

Right now we have politicians making choices either based on party lines or by figuring out what will help the get elected.

Lionheart | 2:43 p.m. Oct. 23, 2008

@Bye Bye CEO's: You have it right. We were having a standard recession at the bottom of which was subprime mortgages and 95% of mortgage are performing. Government intervention and the Dems led by Obama are proposing more taxes and government spending, and Keynesian stimulus, are you stimulated? Therefore smart people and money are reconsidering the US. I'm thinking India. They are a democracy and religiously pious, 25% of their population with the highest IQ's are greater than the entire US population, they have more honor student children than the US has children. They tried socialism after they were freed from colonialism, they know it doesn't work. They are more interested in growth and modernization than in trying to equalize outcomes. With their massive history and population, they have an explanation for unequal outcomes, karma. After about 10 years a brutalized US may try to coax the CEO's, investors and producers back to the US. It would be pretty tough to get them to come back from India, a country "where mountains and men dream God". Think I'll take my granddaughters there on a trip.

Anonymous | 2:55 p.m. Oct. 23, 2008

The writing is on the wall. Those with the big $$$ are investing elsewhere. General Motors is putting up plants in China. People are moving to socialist Europe where they are more civil and nobody cares about what Rush Limbaugh says.

America is over as we once knew it.

Now we have to key an eye on our next door neighbors for their ideologies are completely opposite from ours and they love guns.

Old One | 3:01 p.m. Oct. 23, 2008

Tell me, how high has your boat risen in the last 8 years? This credit catastrophy is the result of just such thinking. The only boats that have been raised by free market fundamentals are the boats of the wealthy. Consumer price index has risen 17+% in the last 8 years, but my income hasn't risen one cent.
The nationalism imposed because of the credit crunch was implemented by the guy you probably voted for the last two presidential elections -- George W. Bush.
You should really do some research on the meaning of socialism in this country and how much it is utilized. The free market certainly doesn't provide for transportation systems, schools, libraries, Medicare, Social Security, and a million other things.

Sarah the ultimate Capitalist | 3:26 p.m. Oct. 23, 2008

Sarah Palin charged the state of Alaska for trips her children took with her, later amending expense reports to describe their travel as official state business.

I'm sure those children had a perfectly legitimate reason to be at that transportation infrastructure subcommittee meeting.

LOL!

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