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Texas investigation into FLDS child abuse nears an end
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Data base | 6:37 p.m. Oct. 16, 2008
"What kind of law allows a person to be put into a data base after being
non-suited and released from the court."
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It's either the database or wear a yellow star. What we have here is a state that plans to harass these people for the foreseeable future.
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It's either the database or wear a yellow star. What we have here is a state that plans to harass these people for the foreseeable future.
zxcvbnm | 6:57 p.m. Oct. 16, 2008
Well there "data base". You certainly hit the nail on the head with the star comment. Looks like religious persecution is alive and well in Texas.
Pass laws targeting a religion then when the people are found innocent of any criminal wrongdoing continue with the harassment.
I seriousely doubt that ant of those people will open a daycare anytime soon........but hey now everyone will consider them tainted. Will the persecution ever stop?
It is no wonder the flds live a secluded life.....1953 persecution has led to 2008 persecution........shame on Texas.
Comments continue below
Joey | 7:04 p.m. Oct. 16, 2008
This is a classic CPS harvesting job; done "methodically" enough, if
they were to dredge up into state custody the children of any neighborhood and
perform months long investigations wherein child-parent visitations are
scrutinized by note-taking CPS agents, interviews with the children,
examinations, etc., with each bump, scratch, scar, lesion, etc. cataloged, the
agency is bound to come up with a "top ten" or "top 70"
"likely abused" children based on the "evidence" and use
this information to prove their agency's worth their funding levels. In the
meantime, look at how the rights of all the innocent families have been trampled
upon.
Anonymous | 7:20 p.m. Oct. 16, 2008
oh, ziggy, they just put that in about the database to get you conspiracy
theorists going. keep your blood pressure meds handy. it'll be ok.
Texas authorities are criminals | 10:11 p.m. Oct. 16, 2008
Texas authorities from the Governor to the Attorney General to the Judge to the
CPS officals to the Texas Rangers to the Sheriff are all criminals. They
violated the FLDS people's rights. They kidnapped and held innocent
children from their parents who were also innocent of any crime and that has
finally been admitted by the Texas criminals. They should just sue the state of
Texas out of existence but of course that's impossible in Texas courts with
their government defenses. At least the citizens of Texas should brand these
people for what they are. Fire them, vote them out of office on election day.
If they can do it to the FLDS, they can do it to anyone. This is America and
Texas is not exempt from recognizing that even "Mormons'" as they
ignorantly refer to the FLDS, have constitutional rights and privileges.
laughing | 2:12 a.m. Oct. 17, 2008
Well...if so many people hadn't been hurt by Walther, Voss, CPS agents,
Hildebran, Malonis and her ilk, etc. this would be downright comical.
What's that old poem...something about 40 thousand men marching up a hill and then marching down again.
Kinda like the YFZ Ranch raid - they marched in and snatched the women and children and got their nasty little hands slapped and were FORCED to release them, but instead of just letting them go, out of spite they continue to terrorize them. Nasty, nasty people there in Texas.
The whole purpose of the new marriage law was to drive the FLDS out of the State, then CPS/Walther blew it and demanded that they stay. LOL
Oh my word.
I hope the FLDS vacate the state - it's not good enough for them. They need a place to live that abides by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
What's that old poem...something about 40 thousand men marching up a hill and then marching down again.
Kinda like the YFZ Ranch raid - they marched in and snatched the women and children and got their nasty little hands slapped and were FORCED to release them, but instead of just letting them go, out of spite they continue to terrorize them. Nasty, nasty people there in Texas.
The whole purpose of the new marriage law was to drive the FLDS out of the State, then CPS/Walther blew it and demanded that they stay. LOL
Oh my word.
I hope the FLDS vacate the state - it's not good enough for them. They need a place to live that abides by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
R | 8:25 a.m. Oct. 17, 2008
Laughing - unfortunately, I don't know if any part of the US really abides
entirely by the Constitution. I can drag up a variety of examples of CPS abuses
of power in my own state.
Laughing | 8:49 a.m. Oct. 17, 2008
R,
I can come up with some examples in my state, too.
But nothing on the scale of what happened in Texas.
They brag about being so BIG - they should add "ot" to the end of that and they would have it more accurate. (BIGOT)
I guess the BIGGEST thing about Texas right now is the size of the egg on their collective faces.
lol
I can come up with some examples in my state, too.
But nothing on the scale of what happened in Texas.
They brag about being so BIG - they should add "ot" to the end of that and they would have it more accurate. (BIGOT)
I guess the BIGGEST thing about Texas right now is the size of the egg on their collective faces.
lol
realitycheck | 9:59 a.m. Oct. 17, 2008
all you people all up in arms about the parents rights being violated.
Crazy.
What about the children's rights to not be isolated and forever indoctrinated into a fear-based "religion". Pathetic.
I'd like to take all the parents and isolate them and force them 24/7 to listen to stories about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny for the next 20 years - where they are told that if they disobey they will be slaughtered by crazy bunnies and Santa will banish them to hell. Then the children will be even with the parents.
I don't care that what they do is legal. It's unethical and a clear violation of the child's civil rights. No one should have to be unwillingly subject to a religious extremist environment, yet these kids have no choice (nor chance) at all.
I personally don't see how any of you can attack Texas but not attack the FLDS. I'm not saying Texas was right to take the kids, but the FLDS is way wrong for forcing their children to forgo their future.
What about the children's rights to not be isolated and forever indoctrinated into a fear-based "religion". Pathetic.
I'd like to take all the parents and isolate them and force them 24/7 to listen to stories about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny for the next 20 years - where they are told that if they disobey they will be slaughtered by crazy bunnies and Santa will banish them to hell. Then the children will be even with the parents.
I don't care that what they do is legal. It's unethical and a clear violation of the child's civil rights. No one should have to be unwillingly subject to a religious extremist environment, yet these kids have no choice (nor chance) at all.
I personally don't see how any of you can attack Texas but not attack the FLDS. I'm not saying Texas was right to take the kids, but the FLDS is way wrong for forcing their children to forgo their future.
Me | 10:16 a.m. Oct. 17, 2008
"The findings, including details of how many children may have actually
been abused, may not be released because they are confidential by law in Texas,
Crimmins said."
So Texas doesn't have to tell us who or how many they abused? Everyone knows already that over 600 men, women, and children have been abused by Texas, but they are sealing the record from the public.
So Texas doesn't have to tell us who or how many they abused? Everyone knows already that over 600 men, women, and children have been abused by Texas, but they are sealing the record from the public.
Ed | 10:59 a.m. Oct. 17, 2008
realitycheck - "I'd like to take all the parents and isolate them and
force them 24/7 to listen to stories about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny for
the next 20 years - where they are told that if they disobey they will be
slaughtered by crazy bunnies and Santa will banish them to hell. Then the
children will be even with the parents.
I don't care that what they do is legal. It's unethical and a clear violation of the child's civil rights. No one should have to be unwillingly subject to a religious extremist environment, yet these kids have no choice (nor chance) at all."
You're really no better than the FLDS adults you keep yammering about - are you? And for someone who speaks like a civil rights expert - that's a darn shame.
I don't care that what they do is legal. It's unethical and a clear violation of the child's civil rights. No one should have to be unwillingly subject to a religious extremist environment, yet these kids have no choice (nor chance) at all."
You're really no better than the FLDS adults you keep yammering about - are you? And for someone who speaks like a civil rights expert - that's a darn shame.
realitycheck | 11:10 a.m. Oct. 17, 2008
re - Ed:
What? Same as FLDS? You sure you actualy read my post?
I never said I would do it - I said I'd like to so the parents understand just how much it messes up a child. Big difference.
The FLDS do it to children- and I say I would like to do it back to them - and I'm no better than them?
Thats crazy.
I'm open to suggestions. How do we get the parents to understand that they are taking away the child's right to a self-determined future? You tell me, Ed.
What? Same as FLDS? You sure you actualy read my post?
I never said I would do it - I said I'd like to so the parents understand just how much it messes up a child. Big difference.
The FLDS do it to children- and I say I would like to do it back to them - and I'm no better than them?
Thats crazy.
I'm open to suggestions. How do we get the parents to understand that they are taking away the child's right to a self-determined future? You tell me, Ed.
@realityCheck | 11:46 a.m. Oct. 17, 2008
And just what "right" is it that determines how a parent is to raise
their child ? ( Quick answer for you, there is none )
Last time I looked unless its abusive your allowed to raise your children any way you want. If I want to raise my children as Himalayan Yak herders thats my right and the state has not right to say otherwise.
You said:
"What about the children's rights to not be isolated and forever indoctrinated into a fear-based 'religion'."
I say once again, there is no such right. The children are free to accept or reject the teachings of their parents when they come of age.
But then again I suppose that people such as yourself believe that I am an abusive parent because I am teaching my children to grow up to be good conservatives.
Last time I looked unless its abusive your allowed to raise your children any way you want. If I want to raise my children as Himalayan Yak herders thats my right and the state has not right to say otherwise.
You said:
"What about the children's rights to not be isolated and forever indoctrinated into a fear-based 'religion'."
I say once again, there is no such right. The children are free to accept or reject the teachings of their parents when they come of age.
But then again I suppose that people such as yourself believe that I am an abusive parent because I am teaching my children to grow up to be good conservatives.
From the Creek | 12:00 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008
Hi RC.
As an FLDS member, I'd like to know what self-determined future have I have been deprived of by my parents.
In response to your comments in a previous article about requiring physical punishments, etc., to keep children in line, I'll just say you disgust me with your ideas of child-rearing. I can agree that if you teach only fear, then fear will be required to try to keep things in line, and eventually, it will spiral out of your control. We do not focus on fearing God, hell, and eternal damnation; but instead we focus on the love of God, charity, and forgiveness. God is merciful to us; how can we be any different towards our children if we are to become like Him?
I'm not saying we have all been perfect in raising our children. However, I believe the teachings we have in our scriptures are perfect, and they teach persuasion through love. No where will you find it written in our teachings that children are to be taught obedience through fear.
As an FLDS member, I'd like to know what self-determined future have I have been deprived of by my parents.
In response to your comments in a previous article about requiring physical punishments, etc., to keep children in line, I'll just say you disgust me with your ideas of child-rearing. I can agree that if you teach only fear, then fear will be required to try to keep things in line, and eventually, it will spiral out of your control. We do not focus on fearing God, hell, and eternal damnation; but instead we focus on the love of God, charity, and forgiveness. God is merciful to us; how can we be any different towards our children if we are to become like Him?
I'm not saying we have all been perfect in raising our children. However, I believe the teachings we have in our scriptures are perfect, and they teach persuasion through love. No where will you find it written in our teachings that children are to be taught obedience through fear.
realitycheck | 12:23 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008
to from the creek and @realitycheck:
You hide your children from the world and fill them with fear. You steal their right to determine what they want to be when they grow up. You make them leave if they don't want to follow every rule, and you have a rule for everything.
You may think that's ok - I feel it is a clear abuse that removes a child's right to decide what they wants to be when they grow up.
Of course it's your right. They're your children, and you can ruin them as you see fit.
Doesn't make it right - just makes it legal.
And @realitycheck - yes, the child can reject the teachings of their parents when they come of age. As lonfg as they are willing to never come back and give up everything they have known since they were born. Some choice.
You all think you are doing right by your God and your children. God gave people free will so they could make what they will of their lives. You take that away, and you can't even see that. God help you.
You hide your children from the world and fill them with fear. You steal their right to determine what they want to be when they grow up. You make them leave if they don't want to follow every rule, and you have a rule for everything.
You may think that's ok - I feel it is a clear abuse that removes a child's right to decide what they wants to be when they grow up.
Of course it's your right. They're your children, and you can ruin them as you see fit.
Doesn't make it right - just makes it legal.
And @realitycheck - yes, the child can reject the teachings of their parents when they come of age. As lonfg as they are willing to never come back and give up everything they have known since they were born. Some choice.
You all think you are doing right by your God and your children. God gave people free will so they could make what they will of their lives. You take that away, and you can't even see that. God help you.
re: Creek | 12:26 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008
Forget about trying to communicate with RC. The guy still hasn't figured out that your children are your business and his children are his problem.
God bless you and we will keep you in our prayers.
Ed | 1:36 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008
realitycheck - I did read your post. You said what was in your heart, same as
doing what's in your heart (if you believe in GOD.) My suggestion
Sir/Ma'am - leave them alone. You have the right to teach your kids what
you consider right and wrong as long as you don't beat them, burn them, or
starve them, etc. I have the right to teach my kids what I believe is right or
wrong based on my Christian beliefs. I don't have the right to tell you -
realitycheck, you're teaching your kids the wrong things because it's
not what I (ED) believe in and I think you should be punished for that. These
parents have the right to teach their kids what they believe in - lots of other
cultures in the world besides yours and mine. In some of those cultures, they
marry their kids off at 8, some marry their girls to more than one man, etc.
It's a big world, there's a lot of room for everyone. Leave them be.
Grandpa Phil | 2:05 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008
Well said Ed. Unfortunately, RC is not going to listen to anyone who says that
parents have rights to raise their children as they see fit. Don't try to
reason with him; his reality is his own. Interesting how he actually cuts and
pastes comments he makes in other blogs into new ones. Same old tripe, same old
rhetoric, same old unsubstantiated allegations. RC, even when the FLDS kids
tell you that you are wrong and that they are not raised as you allege, you call
them liars. FLDS use the same scriptures as the LDS which provide an example of
how parents treat and discipline children. I would expect no different
techniques than you can find anywhere in the Salt Lake Valley. RC, you can rant
and rave all you like about how unexceptable it is to you but no one cares
because they are not your kids. They raise their kids differently than I do but
I would never suppose I am qualified or allowed to tell them how to do it
better. As zxcvbnm put it so well.... mind your own business RC.
realitycheck | 2:35 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008
you people just don't get it, do you? It's one thing to raise
children to believe in a religion. It's an entirely different matter to
isolate them, restrict their learning and movement, fill them with fear of the
unknown (especially when almost everything is unknown to them) and tell them
that if you want to choose what you want to be when you grow up then you are on
your own. To get out and never come back.
And I would say that those that have said that its a parent's right to raise their children any way they want as long as they don't beat them, burn them, or starve them - have a lot to learn about a child's rights.
Oh wait - you don't believe a child has any rights. My bad.
I supose if the children were being raised and trained to be mass murderers, that would be ok. Or are a parents' right to raise as seen fit only ok sometimes?
They put these comment sections in here so people could give their opinions. It's too bad that anyone with a differing opinion is "ranting and raving" and should "mind their own business".
And I would say that those that have said that its a parent's right to raise their children any way they want as long as they don't beat them, burn them, or starve them - have a lot to learn about a child's rights.
Oh wait - you don't believe a child has any rights. My bad.
I supose if the children were being raised and trained to be mass murderers, that would be ok. Or are a parents' right to raise as seen fit only ok sometimes?
They put these comment sections in here so people could give their opinions. It's too bad that anyone with a differing opinion is "ranting and raving" and should "mind their own business".
Ed | 3:00 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008
To Grandpa Phil - Sir, no offense meant to you but realitycheck has the right to
say/write what's on his/her mind. I talked about rights earlier and the
same goes for him/her. In a way, this is his/her business because it affects
(I'm just going to say him from now on.) Realitycheck is expressing
frustrations the he feels about this whole situation. I've read the posts
since this all started. It's easy to say things when we can't see the
other person's face that we're saying things to. If we were all able
to sit down and have a beer and express how we felt, we'd probably be a lot
more civil and/or understanding. Good Luck to all of you.
re Ed 1:36pm | 3:18 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008
"realitycheck - I did read your post. You said what was in your heart, same
as doing what's in your heart (if you believe in GOD.)"
What? Thinking something and doing it are the same thing? And you think God said that? Come on. Why do you people have to take everything to such extremes? Where do you get such crazy ideas???
Is this another one of those scriptures (written by men) that can be deciphered a dozen different ways and you picked the most stringent one possible? Kind of like what the FLDS do to every line in their religious books?
Come on. Try to be realistic. That's like saying that if you don't worship God then He will not accept you into heaven. I don't know who came up with that one, but saying God wants to be worshipped is the same as saying God is vain. He's not.
Anyway, I digress. You're right - the FLDS can raise their children any way they want. The fact that their process removes free will from children is irrelevant I suppose. Just remember - God gave us free will for a reason - it's not yours to take away.
What? Thinking something and doing it are the same thing? And you think God said that? Come on. Why do you people have to take everything to such extremes? Where do you get such crazy ideas???
Is this another one of those scriptures (written by men) that can be deciphered a dozen different ways and you picked the most stringent one possible? Kind of like what the FLDS do to every line in their religious books?
Come on. Try to be realistic. That's like saying that if you don't worship God then He will not accept you into heaven. I don't know who came up with that one, but saying God wants to be worshipped is the same as saying God is vain. He's not.
Anyway, I digress. You're right - the FLDS can raise their children any way they want. The fact that their process removes free will from children is irrelevant I suppose. Just remember - God gave us free will for a reason - it's not yours to take away.
Ummmmm | 3:18 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008
Reality check - you need to check some real facts about the FLDS -
You are parroting what the tabloids are telling you - I would have thought you were smarter than to swallow those lies hook, line, and sinker.
OBVIOUSLY, the FLDS community is no where's near as closed as we've been led to believe. MOST of the crazy stories about the FLDS have been disproven - very little, if any, abuse has been found or they wouldn't be non-suiting children right and left.
Today it has been the FLDS that have been persecuted. Tomorrow it may be the JW's. Each denomination has it's own doctrines that some one else may find offensive and conclude it is 'abusive' to raise a child in the church doctrines.
Well...I think some of the things taught in the public school is fallacy and therefore abusive. Let's go raid them!
You are parroting what the tabloids are telling you - I would have thought you were smarter than to swallow those lies hook, line, and sinker.
OBVIOUSLY, the FLDS community is no where's near as closed as we've been led to believe. MOST of the crazy stories about the FLDS have been disproven - very little, if any, abuse has been found or they wouldn't be non-suiting children right and left.
Today it has been the FLDS that have been persecuted. Tomorrow it may be the JW's. Each denomination has it's own doctrines that some one else may find offensive and conclude it is 'abusive' to raise a child in the church doctrines.
Well...I think some of the things taught in the public school is fallacy and therefore abusive. Let's go raid them!
Ed | 3:30 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008
To whomever posted re: Ed.
God knows all things, including what is in our heart:
in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. (1 John 3:20)
but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. (Matthew 5:28)
I did some editorializing when I said that whatever was in your heart was the same as doing what's in your heart. You're right on this part though - man wrote this stuff. I'm just taking it on faith that it's what Jesus basically taught when his apostles wrote it down. Last post. Good luck to you guys, I hope you all find some sorta peace in all this.
God knows all things, including what is in our heart:
in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart, and knows all things. (1 John 3:20)
but I say to you, that everyone who looks on a woman to lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart. (Matthew 5:28)
I did some editorializing when I said that whatever was in your heart was the same as doing what's in your heart. You're right on this part though - man wrote this stuff. I'm just taking it on faith that it's what Jesus basically taught when his apostles wrote it down. Last post. Good luck to you guys, I hope you all find some sorta peace in all this.
realitycheck | 3:34 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008
well - I certainly get a lot of responses to my comments. That's good if
it gets you to think about the issue, but it sounds like you all have your minds
made up already.
And Ummmm - haven't read anything about the childrens' rights to self-determination in the "tabloids", and I'll assume by "tabloids" you mean the WSJ or MSN, since that's where I get my news.
And I have no problem with religious teachings. Teach whatever you want. But don't isolate them and then tell them that if they want to do something else then leave and never come back. That's not parenting. That's abuse. And it greatly hinders (to put it mildly) a child's ability to be whatever they want when they grow up.
For the record, I think I'm one of the few that feels the way I do about a child's right to determine their future. Obviously the FLDS doesn't believe in it. Nor do most of you. Just like it used to be for minority rights and womens rights.
Perhaps if you gave it a little more thought....
And Ummmm - haven't read anything about the childrens' rights to self-determination in the "tabloids", and I'll assume by "tabloids" you mean the WSJ or MSN, since that's where I get my news.
And I have no problem with religious teachings. Teach whatever you want. But don't isolate them and then tell them that if they want to do something else then leave and never come back. That's not parenting. That's abuse. And it greatly hinders (to put it mildly) a child's ability to be whatever they want when they grow up.
For the record, I think I'm one of the few that feels the way I do about a child's right to determine their future. Obviously the FLDS doesn't believe in it. Nor do most of you. Just like it used to be for minority rights and womens rights.
Perhaps if you gave it a little more thought....
Red | 4:06 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008
realitycheck 9:59 am: "What about the children's rights to not be
isolated and ... indoctrinated ..."
No such right.
One of the consequences of living in the Land of the Free is that you gotta put up with (what seem to you) like obvously laughable whack-jobs doin their thang.
Absent pretty clear evidence, the State can't interfere with whatever rituals grownups define as "good parenting." Even when it looks ridiculous to outsiders.
realitycheck: "I don't care that what they do is legal."
That's why we have the Rule of Law: to protect people *you* don't like.
From YOU.
No such right.
One of the consequences of living in the Land of the Free is that you gotta put up with (what seem to you) like obvously laughable whack-jobs doin their thang.
Absent pretty clear evidence, the State can't interfere with whatever rituals grownups define as "good parenting." Even when it looks ridiculous to outsiders.
realitycheck: "I don't care that what they do is legal."
That's why we have the Rule of Law: to protect people *you* don't like.
From YOU.
Red | 4:19 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008
Realitycheck 3:34 PM: "For the record, I think I'm one of the few that feels the way I do about a child's right to determine their future."
Right you are.
The only way to let children determine their future from ground zero -- totally independent of their family's beliefs and values --would be to grant them "emancipated minor" status at birth and dump them on the grass to fend for themselves.
I wouldn't recommend it, though.
In fact, I'm even against the "lesser evil" of abducting kids and placing them with families that have a socially correct belief structure.
Australians tried that with aboriginals.
Americans tried it with Indians.
Bad idea, though, IMO.
realitycheck | 4:34 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008
I make no suggestion of "abducting kids" any more than I agreed with
Texas for doing the same.
And parents will raise children as they see fit. I certainly wouldn't want to impede that.
What I would LIKE is for the FLDS to realize that isolating their children and filling them with fear is not good for the child. It removes the child's RIGHT to self-determination. And then telling them that if you want a different life you're on your own and get out - is abuse and abandonment.
What I would LIKE is for the FLDS to care as much about their children's futures as they care about their religion. And I don't mean some afterlife future - I mean their future here.
What I would LIKE is for all of this to at least give the FLDS something to think about, rather than take it as an insult. For them to understand that it is in a child's best interest to go to a good college and find a career that interests them instead of just accepting the FLDS status quo of making babies and working construction.
It's just too bad that everyone's minds are so closed.
And parents will raise children as they see fit. I certainly wouldn't want to impede that.
What I would LIKE is for the FLDS to realize that isolating their children and filling them with fear is not good for the child. It removes the child's RIGHT to self-determination. And then telling them that if you want a different life you're on your own and get out - is abuse and abandonment.
What I would LIKE is for the FLDS to care as much about their children's futures as they care about their religion. And I don't mean some afterlife future - I mean their future here.
What I would LIKE is for all of this to at least give the FLDS something to think about, rather than take it as an insult. For them to understand that it is in a child's best interest to go to a good college and find a career that interests them instead of just accepting the FLDS status quo of making babies and working construction.
It's just too bad that everyone's minds are so closed.
zxcvbnm | 4:59 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008
Closed minds you say RC.........you have closed your mind to the rights of flds to raise their children as they see fit. You have closed your mind to flds explanations about their childrens education. You have closed your mind to independent test results showing that those kids are ok.
The list goes on and on.........but hey just remember. Those aren't your kids and 393 of the little darlings have been released to their parents,,,,,,,,to raise as they see fit as is THEIR right.
realitycheck | 6:04 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008
zxcvbnm
as said before, I have absolutely no problem with religious teachings. I have a MAJOR problem with combining that with fear and isolation, thereby removing the individual's ability to "be what they want to be when they grow up".
You keep talking about education as if the kids have the same opportunities as every one else. Do you actually believe that, or are you just saying it? Anyone that actually thinks about it will come to the same conclusion as me - if these kids want to do ANYTHING outside of the religion, they have to leave everything they know behind. And the parents sure aren't going to send their kids to a decent college - too much "sin" out there. LOL
That's messed up. Maybe you think it's ok, but to me, it's simply really bad parenting. It shows total incompetence of being able to raise good children in the real world.
Sad.
as said before, I have absolutely no problem with religious teachings. I have a MAJOR problem with combining that with fear and isolation, thereby removing the individual's ability to "be what they want to be when they grow up".
You keep talking about education as if the kids have the same opportunities as every one else. Do you actually believe that, or are you just saying it? Anyone that actually thinks about it will come to the same conclusion as me - if these kids want to do ANYTHING outside of the religion, they have to leave everything they know behind. And the parents sure aren't going to send their kids to a decent college - too much "sin" out there. LOL
That's messed up. Maybe you think it's ok, but to me, it's simply really bad parenting. It shows total incompetence of being able to raise good children in the real world.
Sad.
zxcvbnm | 7:29 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008
one more time RC.......many of the flds have college educations.....they have writen here and said as much.
If you don't like their religion don't join it..... How simple does it get.
The kids are just fine and 393 of them have been certified by CPS as not abused. After all the physicals, the psycological testing and the proding into things that were none of their business the kids have been released.
More kids will be released in the next week....then perhaps the investigation of CPS abuse that the MHMR reported will be started, as promised by the CPS.
Gordo | 8:12 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008
A question for "reality check", what's your take on the isolation
that the Amish and Mennonite communities impose on their children? How
brainwashed would a Mennonite child have to be to forego iPods, videogames,
MySpace, and reality TV to live in horse and buggy isolation from the rest of
the world? Shouldn't, by your logic, all Amish and Mennonite parents be
forced to open up their closed communities and allow society to determine how
their children should be raised?
Evidently Texas has determined that actual child abuse among the FLDS is no more prevalent than it is among the Amish. Do you think that the FLDS deserve less freedom to raise their families according to the dictates of their own conscience than do the Amish or Mennonites?
Evidently Texas has determined that actual child abuse among the FLDS is no more prevalent than it is among the Amish. Do you think that the FLDS deserve less freedom to raise their families according to the dictates of their own conscience than do the Amish or Mennonites?
to reality?check | 7:05 a.m. Oct. 19, 2008
I think you are abusing your children by putting them in public schools. You
expose them to drugs, violence, guns, sex and all manner of evils by your
choice. You force them to sit captive for 8-10 hours per day listening to anti
God propaganda. I think CPS needs to be called on your children/grandchildren
for the evil indoctrination of public schools you force upon them.
@realitycheck | 11:07 a.m. Oct. 19, 2008
Your goals for children appear to be 1)college 2)career 3)money 4)place in
society
FLDS goals for their children (and mine) for their children are 1)God 2)family 3)children with being a CEO of a company far down on their list of what is important in life.
In my humble opinion, your priorities about life are wrong. In your humble opinion FLDS priorities are wrong. Tomorrow maybe CPS will be controlled by people that agree with FLDS views of God first. Then it will be your children that are abducted, held captive, interrogated, poked and prodded by doctors at the orders of CPS.
FLDS goals for their children (and mine) for their children are 1)God 2)family 3)children with being a CEO of a company far down on their list of what is important in life.
In my humble opinion, your priorities about life are wrong. In your humble opinion FLDS priorities are wrong. Tomorrow maybe CPS will be controlled by people that agree with FLDS views of God first. Then it will be your children that are abducted, held captive, interrogated, poked and prodded by doctors at the orders of CPS.
realitycheck | 8:59 a.m. Oct. 20, 2008
gordo -
Don't even try to compare the Amish to the FLDS. Two TOTALLY different societies, and if you research it that will become obvious to you. What they are allowed to read is a perfect example.
You say the FLDS shuns TV, yet all the leaders have TV. Only the sheep aren't allowed to watch it. They have the internet, but the leaders have full access and the sheep have a ton of restrictions if allowed at all. The FLDS don't shun technology - they are simply controlled by their leaders.
The FLDS are so used to being persecuted for polygamy, they hide from everyone. And in doing so, they have turned their entire lives (and the lives of their children) over to a bunch of self-serving men.
And I don't care if NONE of the children go to college. But they should be allowed to decide what they want to be when they grow up, and since they have VERY little exposure to the real world, they wouldn't know how to do it even if they were allowed to.
By the way, it got 100 times worse with Jeffs. We wouldn't even be having this conversation....
Don't even try to compare the Amish to the FLDS. Two TOTALLY different societies, and if you research it that will become obvious to you. What they are allowed to read is a perfect example.
You say the FLDS shuns TV, yet all the leaders have TV. Only the sheep aren't allowed to watch it. They have the internet, but the leaders have full access and the sheep have a ton of restrictions if allowed at all. The FLDS don't shun technology - they are simply controlled by their leaders.
The FLDS are so used to being persecuted for polygamy, they hide from everyone. And in doing so, they have turned their entire lives (and the lives of their children) over to a bunch of self-serving men.
And I don't care if NONE of the children go to college. But they should be allowed to decide what they want to be when they grow up, and since they have VERY little exposure to the real world, they wouldn't know how to do it even if they were allowed to.
By the way, it got 100 times worse with Jeffs. We wouldn't even be having this conversation....
zxcvbnm | 10:55 a.m. Oct. 20, 2008
There is no law against restricting TV access for children and many parents do it.
Restricted internet access......many parents restrict access to computers.
As far as internet access goes how do you think flds posters get on this site to answer your redicilous charges RC.
We heard the "no access to technology charges"
during the raid then every other woman in the place walked out with a cell phone and the CPS confiscated the phones.
BTW, those cellphones are the same phones that the women don't use to call for help that they don't need.
Lame charges RC........more half baked talk of abuse when there is no abuse.
realitycheck | 2:16 p.m. Oct. 20, 2008
re - zxcvbnm
come on. I really wish you would read first and comment after...
I said the LEADERS decide - not the parents. What don't you understand? The leaders have TV and the parents don't.
If the parents decided, that's one thing - but they don't even think about it - they're just following the orders of Jeffs, Jessop, and others.
Why do the leaders get TV and the other adults (the actual parents don't? The leaders will say "to protect them" but what's wrong with channels like Discovery? (Oh - wait - they show dinosaurs - my bad) Or CNN? (oh - wait - they might understand the world) Or whatever...
You act like the parents choose these restrictions - they don't - they have no choice. If they watch or let their child watch ANY tv then they risk being banished. (btw - they aren't even allowed to own a tv so it's a moot point...)
My point is that the PARENTS aren't raising the children - the leaders are. So you're not even sticking up for parents rights - you're sticking up for Jeffs and Jessop rights...
What is unclear to you about that?
come on. I really wish you would read first and comment after...
I said the LEADERS decide - not the parents. What don't you understand? The leaders have TV and the parents don't.
If the parents decided, that's one thing - but they don't even think about it - they're just following the orders of Jeffs, Jessop, and others.
Why do the leaders get TV and the other adults (the actual parents don't? The leaders will say "to protect them" but what's wrong with channels like Discovery? (Oh - wait - they show dinosaurs - my bad) Or CNN? (oh - wait - they might understand the world) Or whatever...
You act like the parents choose these restrictions - they don't - they have no choice. If they watch or let their child watch ANY tv then they risk being banished. (btw - they aren't even allowed to own a tv so it's a moot point...)
My point is that the PARENTS aren't raising the children - the leaders are. So you're not even sticking up for parents rights - you're sticking up for Jeffs and Jessop rights...
What is unclear to you about that?
zxcvbnm | 3:12 p.m. Oct. 20, 2008
The parents have a right to follow their leaders. The parents have a right to not allow their kids to watch tv.
Get it RC
The pope makes rules........Catholic parents follow those rules and try to raise their kids to be good Catholics.
The LDS has a leader......LDS parents follow their leaders rules......
Every religion has some type of leader....every leader justifies his rules to some degree and enforces the rules to some degree.
Big deal......the leaders watch tv but may not allow the followers to watch.......the leaders may be trying to filter the "ungodly".
We are back to the free will of persons to join the religion of their choice and follow the religious leader of their choice and raise their kids in the religion of their choice.
Don't follow the rules and the leader throws you out..........ever hear of excommunication?
Go join another church where your leader lets you watch the playboy channel if you don't like the rules.
realitycheck | 3:33 p.m. Oct. 20, 2008
re zxcvbnm
thanks for the comment, mr parrot.
the parents don't let the children see tv or read books or get any understanding of the outside world.
they do this because the leaders tell them to.
how is that fair to the children? how are they to change their lives (if they want to) if they don't have a clue what's going on in the world? how are they to choose a career later in life if they never even heard of most of them?
and why are you so against children?
thanks for the comment, mr parrot.
the parents don't let the children see tv or read books or get any understanding of the outside world.
they do this because the leaders tell them to.
how is that fair to the children? how are they to change their lives (if they want to) if they don't have a clue what's going on in the world? how are they to choose a career later in life if they never even heard of most of them?
and why are you so against children?
realitycheck | 3:35 p.m. Oct. 20, 2008
by the way - its one thing to be excommunicated. it's an entirely
different thing to be to to leave your house and your family and never come
back.
sure wish you would actually think about things instead of making bizarre comparisons like excommunication vs banishment.
sure wish you would actually think about things instead of making bizarre comparisons like excommunication vs banishment.
zxcvbnm | 6:21 p.m. Oct. 20, 2008
They know the rules when they play the game RC...... want to try the "bizzar" ,,,,,how about 37 year old teenagers.....darn the list is too long.
zxcvbnm | 10:27 p.m. Oct. 20, 2008
Almost forgot RC......against children........make me laugh........you just keep on pileing on accusation and making personal attacks to deflect from the real issue. Deal with the headlines or the article and carry on a crusade for children with your own family.
The kids are just fine.....393 of the kids are free from court oversight so their parents are free to raise the kids in their own homes and not fear the tanks invadeing their home.
They can go to the chyrch of their choice and be instructed by their parents to love their God.
keep believeing the book sellers and you will begin to see 37 year old teenagers RC.....but even then you will have no right to instruct or even save the kids.....they aren't yours to save.
realitycheck | 3:02 p.m. Oct. 21, 2008
"deflect from the real issue"???
what is the real issue, zxcvbnm? Is it your issue, or my issue? Because we have entirely different issues - you're concerned for the parents' rights and I'm concerned for the future of the children.
You say "the kids are just fine" - because your issue isn't with them - your issue is with Texas and the gov't. I say the kids' futures are being destroyed - because my issue is with the totally incapable parents.
two entirely different issues.
by the way - I don't read semi-fiction so I haven't read the books you're talking about.
And if you don't like my posts or my position on this, then don't read them. I won't change your mind and you won't change mine. And to be honest, my posts aren't even directed at you.
My hope is that just one FLDS parent will read them and somehow it will make a difference in one child's life - and the child will be able to choose their own career, and spouse, and lifestyle. Because rergardless of what you think, as of right now all three of those choices are forced on them by their parents.
what is the real issue, zxcvbnm? Is it your issue, or my issue? Because we have entirely different issues - you're concerned for the parents' rights and I'm concerned for the future of the children.
You say "the kids are just fine" - because your issue isn't with them - your issue is with Texas and the gov't. I say the kids' futures are being destroyed - because my issue is with the totally incapable parents.
two entirely different issues.
by the way - I don't read semi-fiction so I haven't read the books you're talking about.
And if you don't like my posts or my position on this, then don't read them. I won't change your mind and you won't change mine. And to be honest, my posts aren't even directed at you.
My hope is that just one FLDS parent will read them and somehow it will make a difference in one child's life - and the child will be able to choose their own career, and spouse, and lifestyle. Because rergardless of what you think, as of right now all three of those choices are forced on them by their parents.
zxcvbnm | 4:33 p.m. Oct. 21, 2008
You direct your words at me RC.....read your own posts.
Those "semi fiction" accounts of flds atrocities are at the root of the raid RC........at the root of changed laws.......and are the main sources for the garbage about flds.....I am so glad you think they are fiction.
Those parents that have read the "semi fiction" have answered the charges RC.......and you ignore them.
You have spouted those same lines for quite some time.......and I am sure glad that you consider them "semi fiction"
I consider the booksellers publications a whineing bunch of unsustantiated rumor and hype........fiction......and that drivil is the source for the flds abuse fantasy.
There are perverts in every "society"....and the problem is not with the majority of individuals in those societies.
SEMI FICTION RC.........you're half way there.......now look up the state documentation on the education of the kids......pretty good record they have.
Look at the MHMR reports.......great parents
keep reading RC......you will get from SEMI to 99% fiction when you see the facts instead of believe the gossip.
realitycheck | 5:09 p.m. Oct. 21, 2008
great parents? wow - you really are stuck in your own little world.
and I've NEVER said anything that is in those books purposely, since I don't know what's in them. But I do know a fear-based religion when I see one.
too bad you don't.
and I've NEVER said anything that is in those books purposely, since I don't know what's in them. But I do know a fear-based religion when I see one.
too bad you don't.
zxcvbnm | 5:20 p.m. Oct. 21, 2008
boo...........lol
R | 5:40 a.m. Oct. 26, 2008
Realitycheck, what the heck is so offensive to you about not watching TV? I have
a TV, but I watch twice a week, at most.
//the parents don't let the children see tv or read books or get any understanding of the outside world.//
Um, yes they do.
//the parents don't let the children see tv or read books or get any understanding of the outside world.//
Um, yes they do.
realitycheck | 3:59 p.m. Oct. 30, 2008
Um, no they don't. Perhaps if you lived in the real world instead of
hiding in the desert you would know what actually goes on in the world...
Rico | 12:17 p.m. Nov. 1, 2008
Reality check has been posting on this same news story for months. No amount of
reasoning or reasonability will sway her.(him?). Thjis poster is nothing more
than your garden varity troll!
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393 innocent children and what is this about a data base?
What kind of law allows a person to be put into a data base after being non-suited and released from the court. No conviction of a crime but restrictions placed on work.
Did I read this right? In what country can a person be restricted from free association without being convicted of a crime?