Reader comments
John Florez: Lawmakers' patchwork rules hurting education
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Anonymous | 6:15 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008
Perhaps you haven't read the legislation. (Editorialists rarely do. Never
let the truth get in the way of a good story.) The public wants pay for
performance. The public also wants local control. The legislature passed a bill
funding pay for performance plans that were created by the local schools and
local districts. It's a better approach than creating a one-size-fits-all
state plan.
Perhaps you also don't realize that the local school boards are responsible for setting the vision for public education. The state board has an element of responsibility. The legislature is primarily responsible to provide for ways to fund public education. The legislature continues to point our that we are a State at Risk. Too many in public education believe that "all is well in Zion" and oppose steps by parents and the legislature to reform and improve public education. Rewarding the best teachers is one small step.
Perhaps you also don't realize that the local school boards are responsible for setting the vision for public education. The state board has an element of responsibility. The legislature is primarily responsible to provide for ways to fund public education. The legislature continues to point our that we are a State at Risk. Too many in public education believe that "all is well in Zion" and oppose steps by parents and the legislature to reform and improve public education. Rewarding the best teachers is one small step.
Anonymous | 7:44 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008
The editorial is right on.
Pass the buck. Then get your paid bloggers to back you up on the internet.
The merit pay was a joke. In our district we have to jump through numerous hoops to get $500. I did it, of course, because I desperately need the money. But what I did shows no merit at all.
You should write another article about the bonus money for math and science. In science they made so many rules and requirements that not one teacher at our school qualified for it. Last year I went to a science teacher training and asked the 100 or so teachers there if they would qualify for it. Guess how many qualified? NOT ONE!
This leads me to believe it was a publicity stunt.
Sad.
Pass the buck. Then get your paid bloggers to back you up on the internet.
The merit pay was a joke. In our district we have to jump through numerous hoops to get $500. I did it, of course, because I desperately need the money. But what I did shows no merit at all.
You should write another article about the bonus money for math and science. In science they made so many rules and requirements that not one teacher at our school qualified for it. Last year I went to a science teacher training and asked the 100 or so teachers there if they would qualify for it. Guess how many qualified? NOT ONE!
This leads me to believe it was a publicity stunt.
Sad.
Comments continue below
Anonymous | 7:53 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008
Another lame Florez editorial. Just a bunch of moaning about the Legislature
with no serious substantive counterproposal for solving the problem.
Instereo | 8:19 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008
When the legislature pushes a political agenda in the name of education, the
students lose.
It's time for the legislature to stop micro-managing education and fund it to a level that teachers can do their jobs and provide for the needs of children in Utah.
It's time for the legislature to stop micro-managing education and fund it to a level that teachers can do their jobs and provide for the needs of children in Utah.
Unqualified Science Teachers | 8:33 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008
Wow! Out of 100 science teachers not one of them is qualified to teach science?
Perhaps that's why our science education is so pitiful here in Utah. And to
think that our schools employ these individuals and then give then guaranteed
employment for life (aka tenure).
Of course, we would never see this level of inexperience and lack of qualification in our coaching staffs. Football, basketball, soccer, etc. are much too valuable. Who needs science anyway?
Of course, we would never see this level of inexperience and lack of qualification in our coaching staffs. Football, basketball, soccer, etc. are much too valuable. Who needs science anyway?
Parent of two | 10:39 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008
Yawn. Clearly the tired old education networks will resist competition, and
change - but as a parent of two, I am counting on innovation from the
legislature (who else?) to ensure my children are not truly left with an
education to nowhere. Keep it up, legislators. Please!
Science Teacher | 10:41 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008
The reason we aren't "qualified" is because our degrees say
something else.
The legislature pays out only to a few select degrees and requires you to be teaching in your specific area. BTW, there is NO degree awarded in Utah for Integrated Science, so every integrated science teacher is out... even though that is part of the requirements to receive the money.
Getting an endorsement (qualifying for teaching science AFTER graduating from college) also doesn't count. So, it doesn't matter how many classes I take and how many courses I'm qualified to teach, I'll never see the money because my degree is in another field.
It was all a shell game by the legislature. They offer the money and then make the rules nearly impossible to follow. Then they can blame us when we don't qualify.
My entire department won't get a dime, and we are probably the best science dept. in the district.
Guess we must stink at teaching, huh?
The legislature pays out only to a few select degrees and requires you to be teaching in your specific area. BTW, there is NO degree awarded in Utah for Integrated Science, so every integrated science teacher is out... even though that is part of the requirements to receive the money.
Getting an endorsement (qualifying for teaching science AFTER graduating from college) also doesn't count. So, it doesn't matter how many classes I take and how many courses I'm qualified to teach, I'll never see the money because my degree is in another field.
It was all a shell game by the legislature. They offer the money and then make the rules nearly impossible to follow. Then they can blame us when we don't qualify.
My entire department won't get a dime, and we are probably the best science dept. in the district.
Guess we must stink at teaching, huh?
Anonymous | 10:54 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008
No we are all qualified to teach science. We all have science degrees.
They just set up the bonus money so only very few qualify for it.
Ex. I have a Biology degree but you must have a physics or chemistry degree to qualify for the money.
It looked good in the newspaper however, when they said science teachers will be getting a raise!
They just set up the bonus money so only very few qualify for it.
Ex. I have a Biology degree but you must have a physics or chemistry degree to qualify for the money.
It looked good in the newspaper however, when they said science teachers will be getting a raise!
Someone needs to do something | 11:02 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008
In an ideal world, the educational establishment would take care of education
and the legislature could keep a hands off approach except for the funding.
Fact is educational quality has decline since I went to school in Utah. I see the difference between what I experienced and the education my kids are getting now.
First there was the whole language reading, which our educators didn't have the sense to protect us against. Then investigations math. The AP track in math is watered down compared to what it was when I went to school. Geomerty used to be about learning to solve problems using logic and proving theorems yourself, now it is about solving VERY simple problems and memorization.
The principal of non micro management by the legislature is a good one, but quality education has to come first.
We need to pay teachers more, so that more highly intelligent people who have other options will more often choose teaching. The administrators we have now (and I have talked to them) don't really see there is a problem. They make excuses, saying that the way math is taught today is more relevant for the "real world". What it is is dumb.
Fact is educational quality has decline since I went to school in Utah. I see the difference between what I experienced and the education my kids are getting now.
First there was the whole language reading, which our educators didn't have the sense to protect us against. Then investigations math. The AP track in math is watered down compared to what it was when I went to school. Geomerty used to be about learning to solve problems using logic and proving theorems yourself, now it is about solving VERY simple problems and memorization.
The principal of non micro management by the legislature is a good one, but quality education has to come first.
We need to pay teachers more, so that more highly intelligent people who have other options will more often choose teaching. The administrators we have now (and I have talked to them) don't really see there is a problem. They make excuses, saying that the way math is taught today is more relevant for the "real world". What it is is dumb.
Anonymous | 11:19 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008
Science Teacher:
You may be the best department in your district, but how do you know your department and its teachers are any good?
As I understand the legislature structured the math/science based on degrees from the colleges of math and science, rather than the colleges of education. Sounds like a good arrangement. Our colleges of education have been doing a great job of championing lower education standards, fuzzy math, and other destructive practices.
You may be the best department in your district, but how do you know your department and its teachers are any good?
As I understand the legislature structured the math/science based on degrees from the colleges of math and science, rather than the colleges of education. Sounds like a good arrangement. Our colleges of education have been doing a great job of championing lower education standards, fuzzy math, and other destructive practices.
evensteven | 11:26 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008
So, its all the legislature's fault? What about the school board? Or UEA?
Or the district administration? Do they share no blame for the state of
education?
The are many contributing causes and no-one is blameless. However, there are those with much more culpability than the legislature who just sit by while others try to bring improvement. Or worse yet, actively work to undermine and oppose them.
The best thing the legislature could do is open up the transfer mechanism and allow teachers to move within districts without losing seniority and benefits. That would help create a true 'market' for good teachers. They would naturally gravitate to the districts that appreciated them and force the others to improve the teaching environment.
The second best thing would be to enhance the legal protections for teachers and administrators so they can effectively enforce discipline in the classroom. Public education is a constitutional right. That works both ways. Your kid does not have the right to ruin class for everyone else.
The are many contributing causes and no-one is blameless. However, there are those with much more culpability than the legislature who just sit by while others try to bring improvement. Or worse yet, actively work to undermine and oppose them.
The best thing the legislature could do is open up the transfer mechanism and allow teachers to move within districts without losing seniority and benefits. That would help create a true 'market' for good teachers. They would naturally gravitate to the districts that appreciated them and force the others to improve the teaching environment.
The second best thing would be to enhance the legal protections for teachers and administrators so they can effectively enforce discipline in the classroom. Public education is a constitutional right. That works both ways. Your kid does not have the right to ruin class for everyone else.
Anonymous | 12:23 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
To Anonymous at 11:19
You can't teach secondary science in Utah without a SCIENCE degree. There is no such thing as an "Education degree" except in elementary education.
I still laugh when people say that one.
Clueless people that want to argue when they don't know what they are talking about.
Science teachers in Utah get the same science degrees (bachelors) as your local doctor, dentist, geologist, vet, etc.
You can't teach secondary science in Utah without a SCIENCE degree. There is no such thing as an "Education degree" except in elementary education.
I still laugh when people say that one.
Clueless people that want to argue when they don't know what they are talking about.
Science teachers in Utah get the same science degrees (bachelors) as your local doctor, dentist, geologist, vet, etc.
Anonymous | 12:26 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
I would love to see the "transfer between districts" become available.
After 7 years a teacher takes a pay cut if they move to another district.
After 7 years a teacher takes a pay cut if they move to another district.
Anonymous | 12:27 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
The restrictions on teacher transfers are due to the corrupt collusion between
the districts and the teacher unions -- those who supposedly know best.
Disallow Education degrees | 1:07 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
Education degrees should not be allowed to teach math in grade school. We
should require math or related degrees, Utah is trying to bring on Sinapore Math
which is the best in the world. This will require teachers better trained in
math.
Transfer between districts | 1:44 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
The notion that collusion between teacher unions and districts is stopping
movement between districts is laughable. It is solely the districts. The
districts, by state law, could pay a transferring teacher at any level they
wanted and sometimes do, when they want to (read a coach that they want) For
many years, it has been a case of supply and demand, and scarce funding that has
limited districts in paying more to transferring teachers. Why pay more to a 20
year transferring veteran when you have a several beginning teachers applying?
Those times are changing and districts are upping the ante a little. In more demand areas a veteran can change if they want and get more years to count but many times not enough, and a district decision, NOTHING to do with the union.
Those times are changing and districts are upping the ante a little. In more demand areas a veteran can change if they want and get more years to count but many times not enough, and a district decision, NOTHING to do with the union.
Anonymous | 3:07 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
Dear clueless on transfers between districts:
Our district limits the ability for teachers to transfer. It was a negotiated term of the contract between the district and the union.
Our district limits the ability for teachers to transfer. It was a negotiated term of the contract between the district and the union.
Anonymous | 3:15 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
To Anonymous at 12:23:
Our high schools have teachers who have degrees in Math Education, not Mathematics. It is not a full-fledged math degree. It is a watered-down degree. My experience is that the math educators are not as effective as the mathematicians who are not as effective as those teachers with engineering degrees.
Keep laughing at your cluelessness.
Our high schools have teachers who have degrees in Math Education, not Mathematics. It is not a full-fledged math degree. It is a watered-down degree. My experience is that the math educators are not as effective as the mathematicians who are not as effective as those teachers with engineering degrees.
Keep laughing at your cluelessness.
Anonymous | 5:01 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
To anonymous 3:15
I didn't hear him/her say anything about math, just science.
I'm actually surprised we can get anyone to teach math or science when they could take their degree elsewhere and make twice as much starting out.
Plus they wouldn't have to put up with the ignorance of people that think they know it all when they really know very little.
I didn't hear him/her say anything about math, just science.
I'm actually surprised we can get anyone to teach math or science when they could take their degree elsewhere and make twice as much starting out.
Plus they wouldn't have to put up with the ignorance of people that think they know it all when they really know very little.
Anonymous | 10:04 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
I just looked at the requirements for the science bonus.
They really are ridiculous.
Someone could be teaching 7th or 8th grade science, have a Biology degree from a university (not a science education degree which doesn't seem to exist), and still not qualify for the bonus money paraded to the public by our legislature.
Another teacher, teaching the same class but having a Physical science degree would qualify.
That just makes no sense at all.
If they have a real degree from a real university, they should be getting the money to keep them in the schools.
Who thought that one up?
I can see why very few qualify. The only ones that will get it teach Chemistry and Physics. They definitely deserve it. So do the others.
Hopefully this mistake will be taken care of next session.
They really are ridiculous.
Someone could be teaching 7th or 8th grade science, have a Biology degree from a university (not a science education degree which doesn't seem to exist), and still not qualify for the bonus money paraded to the public by our legislature.
Another teacher, teaching the same class but having a Physical science degree would qualify.
That just makes no sense at all.
If they have a real degree from a real university, they should be getting the money to keep them in the schools.
Who thought that one up?
I can see why very few qualify. The only ones that will get it teach Chemistry and Physics. They definitely deserve it. So do the others.
Hopefully this mistake will be taken care of next session.
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2. Do away with social promotion in the early grades. If Johnny or Susie do not perform at grade level then they should not advance merely because of their age. If they don't have the knowledge or skills necessary all we are doing is setting them up for future failure. They need to learn and need to be able to SHOW that they have acquired the basic skills and knowledge necessary to advance in grade levels.
3. Allow teachers to teach. Most are in the classroom because they LOVE teaching but can't because of a few vocal parents who believe in their kid's lies. Parents wise up.