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Jewish family makes peace with LDS baptism
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Rich | 3:34 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
Thank you for the wonderful and accurate article. I hope the Salt Lake Tribune
elects to publish this piece in order to educate its readers.
kate | 5:58 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
Thank you for this amazing article it repesents our doctrine well.
Comments continue below
COOL | 9:35 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
I can never figure out why some people take such offense that a Mormon would be
baptized for them when dead. I am a Mormon and have been involved in many such
baptisms. It is wonderful.
But some say, "what if other Churches did that to you or to your ancestors? You wouldn't think it is so great then." What are you talking about? If they have such binding power on earth that what they do is bound in heaven then please take me with you, and thank you do much. If not, how could I care any less. Their efforts would be meaningless and unbinding. So why fret. It is all good. Win-win. Go for it baby.
But some say, "what if other Churches did that to you or to your ancestors? You wouldn't think it is so great then." What are you talking about? If they have such binding power on earth that what they do is bound in heaven then please take me with you, and thank you do much. If not, how could I care any less. Their efforts would be meaningless and unbinding. So why fret. It is all good. Win-win. Go for it baby.
notconvinced | 10:29 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
The article is very nice and very well written. I just wonder if all of you, who
are so proud of yourselves, would feel the same if YOU had been the one baptized
posthumously to another religion, that you chose NOT to be a part of all your
life. Forget that the writer has moved on, consider how you would feel as you
pat yourselves zealously on your pompous backs. All this loving of mankind
beyond life on earth is all well and good, but what about the living on earth?
What has the Mormon church done for the hungry and the homeless lately? The last time I checked, I could not locate a soup kitchen sponsored by and ran by the LDS church. Why not? Don't tell me you have the "welfare farm", Joe Down on his Luck lives under a park bench and has far too many addiction issues to figure out how to find that. He needs a warm meal, and a warm bed, right now. Tonight. Where are the Mormons? Where are they feeding the hungry, as Jesus instructed? Where?
What has the Mormon church done for the hungry and the homeless lately? The last time I checked, I could not locate a soup kitchen sponsored by and ran by the LDS church. Why not? Don't tell me you have the "welfare farm", Joe Down on his Luck lives under a park bench and has far too many addiction issues to figure out how to find that. He needs a warm meal, and a warm bed, right now. Tonight. Where are the Mormons? Where are they feeding the hungry, as Jesus instructed? Where?
Bob P | 10:51 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
I am a fifth/sixth generation Mormon. When doing my Mormon geneology I made an
interesting discovery. My maternal grandmother was a Jew, thus my mother was a
Jew and so am I, but not my children as I'm male.
That "disvovery" was made when I was in my 30's, but to me it confirms my life long, even as a teenager, adherence to Zionism. To the extent I tried to join the Israeli army in 1967 (I arrived in Israel on the 8th day and the war was over).
There is no contradiction to being both.
That "disvovery" was made when I was in my 30's, but to me it confirms my life long, even as a teenager, adherence to Zionism. To the extent I tried to join the Israeli army in 1967 (I arrived in Israel on the 8th day and the war was over).
There is no contradiction to being both.
me | 11:21 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
But how arrogant of you to think that the choice that person made during his/her
lifetime needed to be "corrected". I have made my choice here on Earth
to follow the teachings of my church. I don't want someone to come back
later and insinuate that my belief system was incorrect and that after death I
might need to change my mind. Get out of others' beliefs.
Thanks Boris | 11:37 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
Thanks Boris. I was about to respond to Ahmad but I couldn't have put it
better myself.
Bert | 1:58 a.m. Oct. 14, 2008
When religious tolerance is expressed and a desire to understand another shown,
I believe we all move closer to knowing our Father in Heaven and His Son. Part
of the 13th Article of Faith reminds us -
'If there is anything virtous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things..'
This example of love and understanding demonstrates to each of us how we can best build those relationships of trust that cross religious and cultural boundaries. We are all children of the same Heavenly Father - and would do well to rememember that He loves each one of us.
'If there is anything virtous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things..'
This example of love and understanding demonstrates to each of us how we can best build those relationships of trust that cross religious and cultural boundaries. We are all children of the same Heavenly Father - and would do well to rememember that He loves each one of us.
RE: notconvinced | 2:25 a.m. Oct. 14, 2008
To: notconvinced | 10:29 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
"Where are the Mormons? Where are they feeding the hungry, as Jesus instructed? Where?"
The Mormons are quietly making food and monetary donations, doing it so that their right hand doesn't know what their left hand is doing.
At least twice a year, the LDS Boy Scouts do food drives in their neighborhods. My husband oversaw these food drives for 6 years. 20 to 25 bins all measuring 4x4x3 feet are placed in our church parking lot, and the scouts go door-to-door, picking up bags of food left on doorsteps. By the end of the morning all the bins are full to the tops and more. The food is then delivered to the local food banks and homeless shelters.
The Relief Society women make and ship thousands of newborn kits, hygiene kits, and quilts locally and internationally every year. We are doing more again this week.
The reason you have never seen it happening is simple: It is done quietly and in our own way, while you are looking for something else.
"Where are the Mormons? Where are they feeding the hungry, as Jesus instructed? Where?"
The Mormons are quietly making food and monetary donations, doing it so that their right hand doesn't know what their left hand is doing.
At least twice a year, the LDS Boy Scouts do food drives in their neighborhods. My husband oversaw these food drives for 6 years. 20 to 25 bins all measuring 4x4x3 feet are placed in our church parking lot, and the scouts go door-to-door, picking up bags of food left on doorsteps. By the end of the morning all the bins are full to the tops and more. The food is then delivered to the local food banks and homeless shelters.
The Relief Society women make and ship thousands of newborn kits, hygiene kits, and quilts locally and internationally every year. We are doing more again this week.
The reason you have never seen it happening is simple: It is done quietly and in our own way, while you are looking for something else.
to "notconviced"@10:29pm | 4:14 a.m. Oct. 14, 2008
If you would like to know where the Mormons are when people are hungry, naked or
in need, perhaps you need to not look for a sign on a building that reads
"Mormon Soup-Kitchen" and look in a much more hard to see place.
The Mormons are feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, helping the needy, blessing the sick and following the teaching of Christ in modest houses, straw huts, refugee camps, temporary shelters and may other places throughout the world where help is needed. They are also helping the widow down the street and the parents who just lost a child.
The Mormons are helping millions of people through out the world. If you would like to see it, please find the nearest LDS church, ask to sit down with a Bishop or Relief Society President and they can show you exactly where the Mormons are helping and how it is being done every day...
The Mormons are feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, helping the needy, blessing the sick and following the teaching of Christ in modest houses, straw huts, refugee camps, temporary shelters and may other places throughout the world where help is needed. They are also helping the widow down the street and the parents who just lost a child.
The Mormons are helping millions of people through out the world. If you would like to see it, please find the nearest LDS church, ask to sit down with a Bishop or Relief Society President and they can show you exactly where the Mormons are helping and how it is being done every day...
re: Cool & Unconvinced | 4:39 a.m. Oct. 14, 2008
To Cool: just because you don't get why others might be offended
doesn't mean you shouldn't give them the freedom to disagree. Your
own positive experiences might be more readily understood and accepted if you
showed a little more understanding of differing viewpoints.
To Unconvinced: I understand the point made in your first paragraph, but you need to do a little more homework regarding the humanitarian efforts made by the LDS church (paragraph #2). I have been quite involved with a variety of humanitarian efforts and have seen much of the service offered by many groups firsthand. True, they may not sponsor an on-going soup kitchen in downtown SLC, but the "where" they serve is worldwide.
The LDS church often provide the first and most extensive non-governmental aid provided to many countries worldwide who have gone through disasters. They also quietly and privately feed thousands of families and individuals weekly, including many locally, through Bishops' Storehouses. The overall humanitarian aid they provide is staggering.
To Unconvinced: I understand the point made in your first paragraph, but you need to do a little more homework regarding the humanitarian efforts made by the LDS church (paragraph #2). I have been quite involved with a variety of humanitarian efforts and have seen much of the service offered by many groups firsthand. True, they may not sponsor an on-going soup kitchen in downtown SLC, but the "where" they serve is worldwide.
The LDS church often provide the first and most extensive non-governmental aid provided to many countries worldwide who have gone through disasters. They also quietly and privately feed thousands of families and individuals weekly, including many locally, through Bishops' Storehouses. The overall humanitarian aid they provide is staggering.
DrW | 5:31 a.m. Oct. 14, 2008
I have never understood why people get so upset about posthumous baptism.
After all, would we CARE if we heard that a bunch of aboriginals were passing bones around a fire in our name? Irrelevant to the max.
Religion is just a remnant and expression of a gene that in prehistoric times played a role in establishing human society and has long since ceased to be of any consequence -- and posthumous baptism is just more of that irrelevance.
The world is filled with REAL human problems to be dealt with!
After all, would we CARE if we heard that a bunch of aboriginals were passing bones around a fire in our name? Irrelevant to the max.
Religion is just a remnant and expression of a gene that in prehistoric times played a role in establishing human society and has long since ceased to be of any consequence -- and posthumous baptism is just more of that irrelevance.
The world is filled with REAL human problems to be dealt with!
David Perry | 7:29 a.m. Oct. 14, 2008
Thanks for the excellent treatment of a subject that ususally ignites biases.
As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I have a
profound love for my Jewish cousins. Studying Hebrew in classes at BYU
intensified my feelings for them. May we all learn to live together in love and
peace!
ScottAZ | 7:29 a.m. Oct. 14, 2008
It is still interesting to me why those who claim that the LDS faith is false
have a problem with baptisms for the dead. If it means nothing, with no
authority, then why act as if it does?
Mc | 8:09 a.m. Oct. 14, 2008
Unconvinced: What has the Mormon church done for the hungry and the homeless
lately?
The Church may not have a soup kitchen with their name on it, but ask the soup kitchen in downtown Salt Lake where much of their financial support and volunteers come from and you'll find they receive much from the Church. The food bank and homeless shelter, as well as many other charities receive support from individual wards and stakes and the Church itself, which often partners with other faiths to give aid.
US Presidents have come to Utah to examine the LDS welfare system, known for its success in helping poor families. Countries all over the world have recognized the Church for humanitarian aid given immediately when disasters happen. Starving children have been restored to health with Admit, a health drink developed by the Church for those whose digestive systems can't handle regular foods yet. I couldn't possibly list all that the Church is doing to help others. Go to the LDS Humanitarian Center and see for yourself.
Anyone who criticizes the LDS Church for not helping the poor and needy is only showing ignorance.
The Church may not have a soup kitchen with their name on it, but ask the soup kitchen in downtown Salt Lake where much of their financial support and volunteers come from and you'll find they receive much from the Church. The food bank and homeless shelter, as well as many other charities receive support from individual wards and stakes and the Church itself, which often partners with other faiths to give aid.
US Presidents have come to Utah to examine the LDS welfare system, known for its success in helping poor families. Countries all over the world have recognized the Church for humanitarian aid given immediately when disasters happen. Starving children have been restored to health with Admit, a health drink developed by the Church for those whose digestive systems can't handle regular foods yet. I couldn't possibly list all that the Church is doing to help others. Go to the LDS Humanitarian Center and see for yourself.
Anyone who criticizes the LDS Church for not helping the poor and needy is only showing ignorance.
Nice | 9:25 a.m. Oct. 14, 2008
I really appreciated this article. Especially, I appreciated the author sharing
their initial dismay when they learned of the baptism, and then showed how they
realized that it was out of love.
The world is full of people who only seek their own glory and so most people are wary of people who try to do good. It is hard for people to realize that what we do, we do out of love.
The world is full of people who only seek their own glory and so most people are wary of people who try to do good. It is hard for people to realize that what we do, we do out of love.
Pleasantly Pleased | 11:10 a.m. Oct. 14, 2008
Hi everyone (Keith especially), For the first time I am amazed that there was no
bashing from this article. Isn't that wonderful!!! Everyone already
answered all the questions Keith had perfectly, my only addition is...Keith you
can go to lds.org and learn so much more about what Latter-Day Saints believe by
clicking on the various links within the website. And for a more personal way to
learn, ask to have the missionaries come teach you in person. It's our
desire to have everyone educated in our beliefs directly from the source and not
hear-say. You will still have your free agency as to whether you accept our
teachings or not even with the missionaries giving you the lessons. I just
wanted to give you the invite officially. Wish you were in the Annapolis,
Maryland area and we would invite you to our home to learn more, and believe me
there is a life-time of learning here. Take care and thanks for the genuine
questions and open-mindedness. We appreciate it very much!
Hosanna to God and the Lamb | 11:23 a.m. Oct. 14, 2008
I haven't read the comments here (read plenty of comments in the past on
articles); but I can only imagine that for all the good--knowing all the bad
comments that will go along with the good--I will have best been served relying
more on the message from the article itself.
Having said that, I just wanted to add my thought of how wonderful the Jewish faith is. If Jesus Christ truly is the chosen Messiah whom many Jews still expectantly wait for, then how wonderful it will be if Jesus the Christ, who died on Calvary, provides a way--biblically supported--for members of that great Jewish faith to still accept the gospel (What great news a restoration purports!), especially if anyone has not been sufficiently given the opportunity in this life to accept the Messiah whom despite that, their righteous actions have supported in their worship according to what they have accepted and known throughout their lives.
Whether or not someone knows Jesus Christ, at least I know He provides a way to offer everyone as much a chance as anyone, to come unto Him if they but allow themselves. The article reminds me of Christ's tender mercies for me.
Having said that, I just wanted to add my thought of how wonderful the Jewish faith is. If Jesus Christ truly is the chosen Messiah whom many Jews still expectantly wait for, then how wonderful it will be if Jesus the Christ, who died on Calvary, provides a way--biblically supported--for members of that great Jewish faith to still accept the gospel (What great news a restoration purports!), especially if anyone has not been sufficiently given the opportunity in this life to accept the Messiah whom despite that, their righteous actions have supported in their worship according to what they have accepted and known throughout their lives.
Whether or not someone knows Jesus Christ, at least I know He provides a way to offer everyone as much a chance as anyone, to come unto Him if they but allow themselves. The article reminds me of Christ's tender mercies for me.
To unconvinced | 12:17 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008
One more thought on the Church's humanitarian efforts; wherever possible,
funds are dispersed through organizations already on-site with the structure in
place to pass the benefits through to the needy without additional
administrative overhead. Ask the Salvation Army where a great deal of their
support in Salt Lake City comes from, not only in cash but in buildings and
other facilities. Ask Catholic Relief about how much support comes from the
Church to their many efforts around the world. One of the other tenets of Church
is to carefully husband the Lord's earthly resources that they have been
granted stewardship over.
cuscoln | 12:21 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008
I didn't read all the comments, but of the ones I did read, I didn't
notice anyone mentioning what I that was the key phrase of the entire article:
"Mom and Dad felt that any blessings bestowed upon them ... long distance
couldn't hurt a thing,"
I can understand the concern over people entering names of holocaust survivors without any involvement from family, but if someone who is aware of me is praying for me, lighting candles, chanting mantras, etc., on my behalf, following their own well-intended beliefs, I appreciate that.
After all, that is why we Catholics ask other saints (living and dead) to pray for us. To be in the hopeful thoughts and prayers of others, regardless of their religion, can only be a good thing.
I can understand the concern over people entering names of holocaust survivors without any involvement from family, but if someone who is aware of me is praying for me, lighting candles, chanting mantras, etc., on my behalf, following their own well-intended beliefs, I appreciate that.
After all, that is why we Catholics ask other saints (living and dead) to pray for us. To be in the hopeful thoughts and prayers of others, regardless of their religion, can only be a good thing.
Ing | 4:33 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008
Exactly! It bears repeating: "To be in the hopeful thoughts and prayers of
others, regardless of their religion, can only be a good thing."
That's the main point this article has to make.
That's the main point this article has to make.
Sam G | 4:42 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008
Personally, as a Jew, I find the practice of baptisms for the dead on our
relatives offensive. While the writer of this article may be understanding of
the practice, there are many people who consider it tantamount to symbolically
spitting in their faces.
The disconnect that is present in the article is that while the author may be tolerant and understanding of this practice, those who baptize for the dead without the deceased's families consent simply DO NOT PRACTICE this same tolerance. If it were otherwise, they would respect many Jews' wishes to simply stop this practice with their deceased family members. One must remember why the family tension she mentions began in the first place.
It is one thing to accept and be tolerant of practices like these, but those who practice them should realize the consequences of their own intolerance. The fact that the deceased can "choose" to accept or reject the act has no bearing on what the act symbolically means to we present-day Jews.
In other words, if we ask you to stop, the "loving," "caring" thing to do is to stop. No means no means no! Where is the mutual respect from the LDS community?
The disconnect that is present in the article is that while the author may be tolerant and understanding of this practice, those who baptize for the dead without the deceased's families consent simply DO NOT PRACTICE this same tolerance. If it were otherwise, they would respect many Jews' wishes to simply stop this practice with their deceased family members. One must remember why the family tension she mentions began in the first place.
It is one thing to accept and be tolerant of practices like these, but those who practice them should realize the consequences of their own intolerance. The fact that the deceased can "choose" to accept or reject the act has no bearing on what the act symbolically means to we present-day Jews.
In other words, if we ask you to stop, the "loving," "caring" thing to do is to stop. No means no means no! Where is the mutual respect from the LDS community?
James | 5:06 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008
Offensive with a capital O! No respect for anyone and to arogant to see your own
fault with this rite. Very sad people. Just mind your own flock and don't
tread on others beliefs nor offend the souls of those who have passed.
Sam G | 5:13 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008
One final comment:
There are many people here wondering WHY Jews would take offense to this.
In essence, it doesn't matter why. The fact of the matter is that we do.
This leaves you with two options: One, be respectful and tolerant of our wishes; or two, disrespect us and still do it.
But one thing I can say is that if a white person calls a black person a racist epithet, the black person can still "choose" to reject that. That does not rationalize the act and what it means symbolically to the black person. This practice (baptism for the dead) is no different to those who take offense to it, and cannot be rationalized any more than calling people racist names can be.
I hope LDS readers can understand this. This issue is about the living as much as it is about the dead.
Make your case, but again- no means no.
There are many people here wondering WHY Jews would take offense to this.
In essence, it doesn't matter why. The fact of the matter is that we do.
This leaves you with two options: One, be respectful and tolerant of our wishes; or two, disrespect us and still do it.
But one thing I can say is that if a white person calls a black person a racist epithet, the black person can still "choose" to reject that. That does not rationalize the act and what it means symbolically to the black person. This practice (baptism for the dead) is no different to those who take offense to it, and cannot be rationalized any more than calling people racist names can be.
I hope LDS readers can understand this. This issue is about the living as much as it is about the dead.
Make your case, but again- no means no.
Ben | 5:26 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008
Thank you, Sam G. I tried several times to post similar views, but they never
made it in.
I hope this one makes it.
I hope this one makes it.
Lucas | 6:30 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008
Temple work has not place in Christianity. Please stop already. It is an
offensive rite and no not only people of Jewish decent oppose this practice but
Christians do as well.
to Lucas | 9:27 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008
I'm a Christian (other Christian faiths call me a Mormon). Baptists are
Christians too, so are Catholics, and Protestants but we are all Christian. So
when I was an LDS Missionary one of my investigator's "Christian"
friends told her on the phone that he was "damning us to hell" during
a missionary disscusion we were having with her...I didn't get offended. I
laughed my head off.
I find it equally appalling I guess that so many "Christians" of other faiths would so readily damn me to hell, or show up at a Mormon's temple wedding and shout horrible swear words and insults on their wedding day downtown or call my brother and sister in law "PIGS" as they walked away from General Conference last weekend. You tell me Lucas...who is the Christian here...those of us who believe we are helping the deseased progress to greater glory in heaven or those who would just assume we go to hell. As for baptism of deseased jews my understanding is work can only be done by someone who is a descendant. I testify that temple work is full of the spirit of God and important otherwise our temples wouldn't be busy.
I find it equally appalling I guess that so many "Christians" of other faiths would so readily damn me to hell, or show up at a Mormon's temple wedding and shout horrible swear words and insults on their wedding day downtown or call my brother and sister in law "PIGS" as they walked away from General Conference last weekend. You tell me Lucas...who is the Christian here...those of us who believe we are helping the deseased progress to greater glory in heaven or those who would just assume we go to hell. As for baptism of deseased jews my understanding is work can only be done by someone who is a descendant. I testify that temple work is full of the spirit of God and important otherwise our temples wouldn't be busy.
Exactly | 10:37 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008
There ARE too many problems in this world to deal with without worrying about
"baptisms for the dead". It is amazing that anybody can believe this
has any effect on dead people. Let's use our time and efforts helping
LIVING people with all of the many problems in the world. A Higher Power that
anybody believes in would not allow people to need their "work" done
after they were dead. When people die they find a loving environment free of
the earthly things we worry about. Not to mention it being impossible for the
LDS church to find billions of "names" to baptize; it is impossible to
do.
Mc | 10:37 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008
Lucas:
If Temple work has no place in Christianity why did Christ worship in the temple in Jerusalem and why did Paul refer to baptisms for the dead in Corinthians? Today's Christians seem to ignore parts of the Bible that they do not understand or they just think it isn't necessary today, but how can you be so sure? What if Mormons are really right about this?
If Temple work has no place in Christianity why did Christ worship in the temple in Jerusalem and why did Paul refer to baptisms for the dead in Corinthians? Today's Christians seem to ignore parts of the Bible that they do not understand or they just think it isn't necessary today, but how can you be so sure? What if Mormons are really right about this?
Socalmon | 12:43 a.m. Oct. 15, 2008
As a Mormon, I loved this article. I have a brother-in-law, who happens to be
Jewish. And believe me, I must admit that I love him the most, of all of my
brother-in-laws. (And I know I shouldn't play favorites.) Although he is
not interested in joining the LDS church, he is very accepting of my
sister-in-law's convictions to her faith and allows their children to be
raised LDS. However, my sister-in-law, conversely, desires the children to
always remember their Jewishness as equally important. This is a good thing
indeed.
The Mormons and Jews have way too much in common to be affected by misconceived notions, in regards to baptisms for the dead. Nevertheless, the LDS church will continue to honor its commitment to the Jewish people in this matter, out of love and respect.
Shalom.
The Mormons and Jews have way too much in common to be affected by misconceived notions, in regards to baptisms for the dead. Nevertheless, the LDS church will continue to honor its commitment to the Jewish people in this matter, out of love and respect.
Shalom.
Common Ground | 5:25 a.m. Oct. 15, 2008
Billy's mom was a Mormon. His dad was Jewish. One day, Billy asked his dad
if he was more Mormon or more Jewish. His dad found this to be a strange
question and asked him, "Why would you ask such a question, Billy?"
Billy quickly explained,"Little Johnny down the street is selling his bike
and I'm trying to decide if I should bargain with him or just cheat him out
of it."
An act of love | 8:16 a.m. Oct. 15, 2008
When I get the question "What if other churches did that to you or your
ancestors? You wouldn't think it was so great then" I answer: I would
be honored that someone thought so much of me as to perform something so sacred
to them on my behalf. I am well acquainted with a woman who thought so much of
two little girls that she played with as a child and who lost their families and
their lives during the Holocaust, that she did their Temple work as there were
so surviving family members to do it for them. She then proceeded to provide the
same for the victims of that town and then that county/district. It was an act
of love, not an act of arrogance. I was sad to hear that the Holocaust
vicitim's names were removed from the public records. As a side note, the
same Jewish community that was angered by the Temple work was very interested in
the genealogy records and asked that she give them copies. She happily did so.
Imagine... | 8:24 a.m. Oct. 15, 2008
... if you were to learn that worshipers in Mecca were using the names of the
victims of 9/11 in one of their religious ceremonies. Could not those same
emotions be imagined for families of the Holocaust thinking about their family
members names being used in the Freiberg or Frankfurt temples however well
intentioned? To all who've commented that they cannot understand why
anyone would object to LDS practices, please try to imagine emotions beyond your
own experience. This author's outpouring of understanding is truely
remarkable.
R | 9:39 a.m. Oct. 15, 2008
Jewish "temple work" isn't the same. Activities at the temple in
Jerusalem primarily had to do with animal sacrifice. If you want to reconstruct
the activities of the ancient temples, go ahead - but "baptism for the
dead" wasn't one of those activities.
//Make your case, but again- no means no.//
Indeed. A lot of these people have, undoubtedly, been exposed to Mormonism and rejected it. I know that's the case with me. In these cases "baptizing" them after death means ignoring who they were and the choices they made.
//Make your case, but again- no means no.//
Indeed. A lot of these people have, undoubtedly, been exposed to Mormonism and rejected it. I know that's the case with me. In these cases "baptizing" them after death means ignoring who they were and the choices they made.
Mormon Arrogance Again/Still | 10:39 a.m. Oct. 15, 2008
To An Act of Love,
Good point. But now let's put a little twist on it. Not a hypothetical twist, but a real one.
Suppose I am a zealous Mormon and out of love, I want to extend the ordinance of baptism to Holocaust victims. But if I am a German (who is also a Jew) and a Mormon, I may also want to extend that blessing to some members of the SS and the Nazis!
This is what actually happened. Adolph Hitler's name was submitted for his work to be done, along with thousands of names of Holocaust victims whose names were just copied down off of the memorials in Dachau, Auschwitz, and elsewhere. No ancestor was submitting them. Just a zealot Mormon who wanted to get "blessings in heaven" for their superior self-righteousness!
It is bad enough that you offend the living by subjecting the names of their deceased ancestors to a religious ceremony that claims to potentially alter their religious affiliation. But to throw Nazis as well as Jews into the mix is downright disgusting!
The important point, if you haven't seen it yet, is to quit looking at the world through your own, ethnocentric eyes.
Good point. But now let's put a little twist on it. Not a hypothetical twist, but a real one.
Suppose I am a zealous Mormon and out of love, I want to extend the ordinance of baptism to Holocaust victims. But if I am a German (who is also a Jew) and a Mormon, I may also want to extend that blessing to some members of the SS and the Nazis!
This is what actually happened. Adolph Hitler's name was submitted for his work to be done, along with thousands of names of Holocaust victims whose names were just copied down off of the memorials in Dachau, Auschwitz, and elsewhere. No ancestor was submitting them. Just a zealot Mormon who wanted to get "blessings in heaven" for their superior self-righteousness!
It is bad enough that you offend the living by subjecting the names of their deceased ancestors to a religious ceremony that claims to potentially alter their religious affiliation. But to throw Nazis as well as Jews into the mix is downright disgusting!
The important point, if you haven't seen it yet, is to quit looking at the world through your own, ethnocentric eyes.
to me | 10:45 a.m. Oct. 15, 2008
won't it be nice to have the choice once you've passed on and found
out you were wrong regardless of how good you lived, to have the opportuninty to
make the correct choice then if you so choose? Another example of Heavenly
Father's mercy.
stillinut84651 | 11:41 a.m. Oct. 15, 2008
I have read the Mormon version of the gospel and have rejected it, because (1) I
believe there is only one God. (2)I believe in the Trinity, (3) I believe in
one baptism (already done), and other differences. I have lived among you
Mormons for many years. After a great deal of thought and consideration, I know
that I do not want to join your group. I know that I do not want to be baptized
again when I am dead. I would suggest respect for others who are not of your
beliefs. I note that even in the way you refer to all others as
"Non-LDS" is disrespectful. We are not
�Non-LDS�; we are Baptist, Catholics,
Jews, etc. We are not one giant group of future Mormons. With full knowledge,
I chose not to join your group and I freely announce it as need be. I
submitted this same message yesterday..but have yet to see it. Please include
it.
nnnnn | 1:11 p.m. Oct. 15, 2008
Baptism for the Dead is a joke.
think of it. The message to those of us who are "non-LDS" is that we don't have to join "the one true Church" while we are alive because we will have a chance to "accept the gospel" in the next life.
Cool. Missionaries, stop wasting your time and go away! I will consider it in the next life.
But then what do LDS tell us? they say that those who reject it in this life would also reject it in the next because "the same spirit" that you have here you will have there.
OK, if that is true, then what makes you think all those people for whom you baptized proxies don't have "the same spirit" that they had here?
Stupid. I can't believe any rational person actually swallows this crap.
think of it. The message to those of us who are "non-LDS" is that we don't have to join "the one true Church" while we are alive because we will have a chance to "accept the gospel" in the next life.
Cool. Missionaries, stop wasting your time and go away! I will consider it in the next life.
But then what do LDS tell us? they say that those who reject it in this life would also reject it in the next because "the same spirit" that you have here you will have there.
OK, if that is true, then what makes you think all those people for whom you baptized proxies don't have "the same spirit" that they had here?
Stupid. I can't believe any rational person actually swallows this crap.
K | 10:29 p.m. Oct. 15, 2008
I must admit other's who come to the door and interupt me on the street
asking me if I've found God ect... are must less respectful than the LDS.
At least they step away respectfully when I tell them I'm a devout
Catholic.
It does bother me to be approached in the first place. The mere fact someone from any church tries to knock on my door or follow me to my car or approach me outside a place of Catholic worship is a bit insulting. I was once approached outside a Newman Center after mass by some small unknown group that called themselves Christian telling me my Church was the wrong one and asking me to show at their bible study.
It does bother me to be approached in the first place. The mere fact someone from any church tries to knock on my door or follow me to my car or approach me outside a place of Catholic worship is a bit insulting. I was once approached outside a Newman Center after mass by some small unknown group that called themselves Christian telling me my Church was the wrong one and asking me to show at their bible study.
kirk | 5:00 p.m. Nov. 11, 2008
I think it is an insult to baptise the people who perished in the nazi reighn of
terror--they were and are jewish--no ceromony can ever change that.
Daniel Baker | 11:41 a.m. Nov. 15, 2008
1. Several have made a comment like: "I hope the LDS show as much
understanding towards others as this fine woman does of the LDS. " That
comment is well placed. It is so easy to make sweeping generalities about
"them", no matter who "them" is out there. Whenever you hear
such a statement you should counter it - gently, but counter it; stand up for
what is right; put honesty before loyalty and truth before tradition. The
leaders of the LDS church have been making statements so repeatedly that
I've lost track: embrace the commonality, join together on common causes,
we don't have to give up our doctrine, but we can respect those of other
faiths - including the Jews of old and present. We can avoid making the childish
statement that the Jews crucified Christ, we can have ears for it, and when we
hear it, we can stop it in its tracks!! Get the book The Distortion, for one.
Or, Mormons's Guide to Judaism. I'm the co-author of the latter.
Gaia Dianne | 1:05 p.m. March 13, 2009
This effort on the part of Mormons to "spin" the story is patently
obvious and offensive. No matter how much Mormons want to congratulate
themselves and have a "feelgood" orgy, the fact remains that the LDS
Church was caught doing something that many (and not just Jews) find extremely
offensive, and LIED about promising to halt the practice.
Please don't lecture others about "learning to get along" until YOU learn to STOP forcing your religious beliefs and practices upon others -- alive or dead, male or female, gay or straight.
Perhaps those many of us (Mormon and Non) who disapprove of the lies, the arrogance, and self- centered, self-righteousness, should demonstrate our disapproval -- by telling the Missionaries to move on --
-- Until the LDS Church learns how to *truly* respect others and their beliefs -- not just publish pretty stories lecturing *others* about doing so.
Please don't lecture others about "learning to get along" until YOU learn to STOP forcing your religious beliefs and practices upon others -- alive or dead, male or female, gay or straight.
Perhaps those many of us (Mormon and Non) who disapprove of the lies, the arrogance, and self- centered, self-righteousness, should demonstrate our disapproval -- by telling the Missionaries to move on --
-- Until the LDS Church learns how to *truly* respect others and their beliefs -- not just publish pretty stories lecturing *others* about doing so.
Re:Gaia Dianne | 6:18 p.m. April 30, 2009
I'm sorry this is so upsetting to you. If it makes you so outraged, why do
you read it? Why don't you just go read something that will make you
happy, like the passage of gay marriage into law? It never does any good to
rage.
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Jewish Community Center
The Star of David glows in a skylight at the Jewish Community Center in Salt Lake. Some LDS practices perplex Jews.
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Some years later I decided to try beets again. Others seemed to actually enjoy eating them. Perhaps because my tastes had matured or perhaps because it was my own idea to eat beets, I found them pleasant to the taste and now eat beets from time to time.
My point is, I changed my mind. I had been unalterably opposed to beets but now enjoy them very much. I know many people who were unalterably opposed to religion but later in life embraced it. I like the idea that a change of mind is allowed but never forced.