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Jewish family makes peace with LDS baptism

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PRM | 2:32 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

God is perfect, we are not. We are only exalted by our use of the free agency we have been given. Everyone will get the opportunity to hear and either accept or reject the gospel truth. Baptism is the sign by which you accept, and is a covenant to keep the commandments and live righteously. It is obviously an important ordinance, as Jesus himself needed to be baptized. It is an outward act of an inner change that occurs when we truly repent. Every Sunday we get an opportunity to renew our baptismal covenants when we partake of the sacrament. There are those who sin because they didn't know better, and there are those who sin because they don't care. If they don't know better, they cannot be judged, so everyone gets the opportunity to hear the truth and then decide how they feel and make choices from there. If you have the opportunity to accept the gospel in this life, there is no guarantee you will be given the chance again in the next life. God's plan was ALWAYS for us to have the right to choose....it was Satan who wished to force everyone to be saved.

PRM | 2:32 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

The 3rd con't to keiths questions...

Also, sealing families together for eternity is the culmination of all the work done in the temples. Ultimately it all leads to the preservation of the family unit.

RE: Keith | 2:38 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

I can't speak officially for the Church, but my understanding is that vicarious ordinance performace will continue through the millenium, even after the second coming of Christ. God will make known the names of those who desire and are needing baptism and other ordinances for their salvation. No one will be left out.

As to your second question, Christ made it clear that baptism was an essential step toward salvation. Even though He was sinless, He insisted to John that He must be baptized "to fulfill all righteousness" (Matt. 3, i think). If Christ needs to be baptized, and He had no sin, then how much more do we need baptism (see also 2 Nephi 31, if you have a Book of Mormon handy). Baptism and other ordinances are how we demonstrate our faith, and it is only through faith in Christ and His grace that we can receive salvation.

hope that helps.

Comments continue below

Rich | 2:55 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Hi Keith,

In answer to your questions:

1) LDS believe that everyone will be baptized. Those that are not known now will be during a later time (a thousand year time after the second coming of Christ called the millennium). Even the Amazon tribes :)LDS believe that everyone deserves a fair chance at accepting or rejecting the church. As such a lot of teaching will be happening, so that once educated; decisions can be made.

2) Yes, I believe that God could. He is God. However even Christ (who was/is perfect) was baptized. He did this as an example. In one way baptism is a physical sign of an inward washing of sins (which was not needed by Christ). In another way baptism is like a ticket to enter the game or in this case God's church. Even Christ needed a ticket and so was baptized. Wither you use the ticket or not is up to you.
I hope this answers your questions. It is a pretty basic answer, but when you only have 200 words this all I could do.

Jess | 2:57 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

I was born in a Catholic Hospital and have learned that unbeknowns to my LDS parents, I might have been "baptised" a Catholic priest at that time. I have not given it a second thought and neither have my parents. I am not offended and think that if some Catholic Priest baptised all the new babies in that Catholic hospital, so what. It didn't affect any of us and the priest had the satisfaction of thinking he had done something to help us. I've heard that some Muslims go to Mecca in behalf of others. If a Muslim, out of concern for my welfare went to Mecca for me, of what concern is it to me? I appreciate his concern. From an eternal perspective, I believe God will judge me for what I have done and for my own choices, not for what someone else did even if he did it in my name. It's a pretty odd concept of a just and merciful God to believe that what Mormons do for the dead in their temples will in any way negatively affect that person's eternal welfare.

Wonderful | 4:38 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

I thought this article was wonderful. I also think that everyone who has responded to Keith's questions has answered those questions very well.

Anonymous | 4:38 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Great article. LDS find and then baptize the dead out of LOVE, not arrogance. Why would anyone think the ordinance is binding to the departed? They may be dead, but they still have their agency and can accept or reject whatever these choose. However, LDS families doing this work should STICK TO THEIR OWN FAMILIES as they've been counseled!

Free Choice Reigns | 4:59 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

The author in the first part of the article says: "For many Jews, posthumous baptisms evoke thousands of forced conversions during pogroms and the Holocaust. It's one thing to offer prayers for someone. It's quite another to seemingly seal their fate without consent."

However, the LDS church , from the very first beginnings of proxy baptisms for those who have passed away have always, repeat ALWAYS, acknowledged that those who have died absolutely maintain their ability to choose. If they accept the necessity of baptism by God's authority, they will accept the baptism. If they choose to not believe it's importance, they are free to reject it. No one is being "forced" in any way, shape or form.

I'm glad that the author has come to realize this fact and is at peace with what the LDS side of her family has done for her relatives.

Anonymous | 5:04 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

"Anonymous | 4:38 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Great article. LDS find and then baptize the dead out of LOVE, not arrogance. Why would anyone think the ordinance is binding to the departed? They may be dead, but they still have their agency and can accept or reject whatever these choose. However, LDS families doing this work should STICK TO THEIR OWN FAMILIES as they've been counseled!"

You didn't pay much attention to the article.

The article said that in 1995 the LDS faith agreed to not perform proxy baptisms "without the consent of their family members." Apparently some of them did.

K | 5:04 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Jess

No you wouldn't have received a valid baptism because you were born in a Catholic hospital. You don't even need a priest to get baptized. Anyone can do it in cases of necessity. It doesn't have to be a priest if there is an urgent need.You parents have to ask for baptism and/or consent and you need at least one godparent or it's invalid. If a priest baptized anyone without proper consent they'd risk their own soul.

It's going to take years for the LDS church to regain trust after baptizing lists of people at random. The Catholic church is still apologizing for Gallileo.

Contemplation Brings Knowledge | 5:16 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Baptism performed on behalf of those who have died.

What an AWESOME doctrine!

Jesus Christ himself clearly said in John 3:3-5 that everyone must be baptized in order to live with God. EVERYONE.

So how, exactly, can that be done for those who lived their whole life with no knowledge of the Savior and then have passed away? And, think about it, considering all the billions and billions of people who have ever lived on the face of the earth, more people are in this category than those who have been privileged to learn of Christ while in mortality.

So again, what is to be done in their situation?

Baptisms performed with God's true authority, the Priesthood, on their behalf by the living, which allows the individual to receive the blessings of membership in God's kindgom if they choose it.

On the surface, baptism on behalf of those who have died sounds pretty strange, but does something strange or unusal mean it must be false?

Christ's claim that He was THE Son of God was definitely "strange" for His day, yet it was true. And, didn't Jesus perform a "proxy act" for us?

The answer is yes, the Atonement.

Luke | 6:14 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Stealing souls? Well isn't that mighty nice.

Anti-PC Infidel | 7:02 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

>It's going to take years for the LDS church to regain trust after baptizing lists of people at random.

If they don't want it, they don't have to accept it, so they're unaffected by it. Pretty simple. It doesn't violate anybody's rights and doesn't force anybody to do anything. It just gives them a choice that they otherwise would not have had, so you're welcome.

Jonathan | 7:16 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

This was a wonderful article. If this is how journalism is practiced in our country from now on, our world would be a much better place. Too bad that's generally not the case. Kudos to this writer, however.

Jeff | 7:27 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Temple nor temple rites have a place in Christianity. I think this whole argument is pretty irrelevent and not much to be concerned about. I do however believe it is disrespectful to the memory of the soul performing these illegitimate rites.

NOrMOal | 7:49 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

I imagine that, somewhere along the line, I have or will be baptised or whatever it is. Does one have to be dead for this to go on? Anyway, the way I see it, the mormons are going to have to make peace with me for doing it, because assuming that the batism or whatever it is takes, I shall be in the beer drinkers section of heaven. It's kind of like what I tell telemarketers before I start in on them. Remember...YOU phoned ME. You initiated this process. What you end up with....sorry about your luck.

zzman | 8:40 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Sad, sad sad...it's not about baptizing, rather, it is about respecting the dead. Baptizing in this manner is disrespectful of the deceased, their family and their religious and cultural heritage. Dress it up in "choice" or whatever you like to legitimate it.

My thoughts on Hell | 8:48 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

I have some good neighbors down the street who are evangelical Christians. We have play groups and hang out. Make no mistake, they think we're going to hell, but they think we're nice people in the meantime. That led me to think, "what do I think of their future salvation?" First, I'm not the judge so I don't have to. Second, my thought was, "The Lord's hand of mercy is so far extended that all of us will probably be given more opportunities to repent than any of us thinks we deserve." That's the beauty of the Atonement and the grace of the Savior. As the Book of Mormon says, we do not merit anything of ourselves.

While I believe that there is a true gospel and a true authority to act in the Lord's behalf on the earth, I do not arrogantly profess to ANYONE that they are going to hell if they aren't baptized today or before they die or when they had an opportunity to do so. I know I reject the Lord's gospel frequently (when I sin) yet I believe his hand is still extended to me and to you regardless of our creed.

richard | 8:49 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

My Mother was there...she had a dark blue tattoo on her forearm, had her head shaved, received terrible treatment that defied explanation. She lost her faith forever amid all that wanton death and human destruction. She would paint all clergy as fakes and refused their counsel dismissing it all as a lot of mumbo jumbo. She would most certainly give her whole hearted approval to the Mormon baptisms saying that it's much to do about nothing.

Linus | 9:06 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

I think it is safe to say that baptism for the dead will do no harm to anyone, living or dead. I am an active Latter-day Saint doing what I believe is right, but I hereby give permission to the members of other benevolent religions to do everything they can to save my soul in God's Kingdom. And I will do the same for you.

BB Klein | 9:33 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

I am Jewish and was baptized into the LDS Church many years ago. I at first resisted baptism because I couldn't accept the idea that I would not be Jewish anymore. I was finally baptized when I realized that I would always be Jewish. Nothing could change my heritage, blood or lineage. I would just be a Jew who found the Messiah. I have remained an active Mormon...an active Mormon Jew. I strongly identify with my Jewishness and it takes nothing away from my LDS beliefs. It enhances them. So whether Manya's grandfather accepted his proxy baptism or not, he is still Jewish.

Kyle | 9:45 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

If anybody wants to make me Jewish when I'm dead, I'm all for it. :)

Kevin | 9:55 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Wonderful article. It is clear that we will save and others approve. The caravan marches on and provides for all. I welcome you all for our efforts.

temple worker | 11:00 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

A telephone call came into a Utah Temple from a Baptist woman asking if it was true that Mormons baptized for the dead. Upon hearing an affirmative response she said she was very happy and asked if could submit the name of a deceased, Muslim friend of hers. The information was taken and she remarked that it was wonderful that whoever had not had the opportunity to be a Christian in this life, could now have it.

Bryan | 11:07 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Great article. Explains my perspective when I do temple work for the dead much better than I am able to. It's unfortunate that so many people jump to conclusions based on partial information without trying to understand where the other person or group is coming from.

Also for Keith's benefit, Temple work serves many purposes. By taking the time to go to the temple to act as a proxy for a deceased individual, it gives the proxy the opportunity to reflect on one's own status before God. You sacrifice a few hours of your time in the hope it will benefit a person you have never met. You also have a chance to recommit to the covenants and promises you made when you received the ordinance at your own baptism. By going often in the appropriate frame of mind, this process truly helps a person draw closer to the Lord.

As a Church, we know this is going to take a while, but we do it with faith that we are going to have a lot of help during the millenium. We are in this for the long haul.

Hope that helps.

Ing | 2:16 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

I started reading these comments with trepidation, knowing how they usually go, especially when the LDS church is involved. It's been a pleasant surprise to see all the good, thoughtful conversation.

I think the furor over temple rites for the dead is due to widespread misunderstanding of the intention behind them. Seems pretty clear to me that it's a benevolent gesture. Nobody is "stealing" souls; even the people who do the proxy rites say that it's only intended to give people a choice in the afterlife. Neither the already dead nor the currently living are obligated to accept the validity of a Mormon baptism.

Speaking for myself, I'm not at all religious (kind of anti-, more like). And last year, when I had major brain surgery (is there such a thing as minor brain surgery?), lots of people told me they'd pray for me. I don't know about the validity of ANY prayer. But I thanked everyone who offered.

Whether I think they're praying up the wrong tree or not, the bottom line is that they were expressing love and concern, and that is a good thing.

To Keith | 8:14 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

One part of your question does not appear to have been answered. You ask why a perfect God cannot just save us based upon our life. The answer, it seems to me, is that no one can be saved just based upon their own life, for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Baptism is a covenant between humans and God. We take the name of Jesus Christ upon us and sincerely repent. Jesus provided the atonement which makes it possible for our sins to be forgiven because he suffered the consequence of sin so we would not have to if we accept him through baptism. Without baptism, we cannot be saved for no impure thing can dwell with God (we as sinners would be miserable in the presence of a perfect God if we could not take full advantage of the atonement as we would have a perfect memory of our guilt). Therefore, we believe all must be baptized to fully repent of our sins and to become pure enough to dwell with God. I hope that helps.

Shalom | 9:39 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

Very, very nicely written. May we all be respectful and sensitive.

God is a God of order | 5:24 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

Keith,

"1 - If everyone needs to be baptized in order to achieve salvation, what happens to those who aren't baptized by proxy? For example, maybe someone in a remote Amazon tribe, which has no contact with the outside world, and no one knows their name. What happens to them>?"

They will be baptized during the millenium. Everyone shall have the opportunity to be taught the gospel, accept it and be baptized. God provides the means and we perform the ordinance.

"2- If God is perfect, couldn't he just save people based on their life? Why would he need other people to perform a ritual on their behalf? In other words, why is this even necessary?"

Because there's a law and even God has to adhere to it or he would cease to be God. He can't say to one "you have to be baptized" and to another "I will make an exception for you." You don't tell one of your children that he has to have a clean room to get his allowance and give another his allowance without cleaning his room.

Skippy | 6:16 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

If someone wants respect for their religious beliefs, they need to respect others' religious beliefs.

Example of Grace | 6:32 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

I'm not Mormon (nor do I wish to be), but respect the grace extended by this writer.

Law | 6:37 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

God is a God of order:
God is not subject to any law. He is all law.
If he were subject to anything, he would cease to be God and the law would be God.
If that is the case, then god is a god without body, parts or passions.

Fred | 6:43 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

I'm impressed by two aspects of this story. First, and most obviously, the ability of the author to see his extended family's religious practices for the way they were intended, and being willing to accept that at face value. I'm also impressed by the extended family's ability to communicate their belief and intent in such a productive way. How many others in similar circumstances would have become defensive and confrontational, which would have only made the situation that much more difficult for the rest of the family members? I hope that we can all be as open to the beliefs and good works of others, and be able to communicate our own beliefs and values in the same way.

Skippy | 6:55 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

If you want your religion respected, you need to respect other religions.

Jordon | 6:59 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

Wonderful story. The caravan is in motion. I would take this story over the stories that protest jews against proxy baptism. In fact I doubt many jews are against it but the bitter media who hate mormons are and make the stories much worse. Proud to be LDS and doing Heavenly Fathers work. I welcome my Jewish brother to Gods kingdom.

Just A Question | 8:57 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

If a person left the express wish to not be baptized by proxy would the LDS honor those wishes?? There are many who believe that this form of worship will not lead to an afterlife with the heavenly father. The LDS are a very devout and respectable people. There are those of us that feel the christian nature of the LDS people will lead to their own salvation but not necessarily to the same that we will enjoy. It seems rather presumptive to disregard a persons faith and life led to try and do what you deem as gods work at their death. Agree it is a very good article but an offer not solicited can offend many.

CITIZEN | 9:01 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

According to the bible there is only one person and one person only that can get me into heaven.and that person is JESUS CHRIST.

Ing | 10:24 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

I can see how an unsolicited offer of salvation might be irritating or offensive--having grown up in a heavily religious area, I've been soul-solicited plenty.

However, when it comes to religious rites meant to have an effect only in the afterlife, I can't see how this could offend anyone who really thought about it. At best, it's an offer made in a spirit of love, and like any such offer, can always be rejected if you wish. At worst, if it has no spiritual validity, those who perform the rites are only wasting their own time.

Isn't the idea of the afterlife that God is in charge? And wouldn't God be capable of sorting out what REALLY makes a difference in the spirit kingdom? Seems to me that if you think a rite for the dead done by someone in another religion--a religion you don't believe--somehow harms your deceased loved ones, your own faith must be very shaky indeed.

The Mormon practice of proxy rites for the dead may annoy some of the living, but I don't see how it could cause any harm to anyone, living or dead.

Derek | 11:08 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

Love, tolerance and understanding are so important in trying to understand the religion of another person. I have learned so much good about other religions and about my own religion through those studies.

Thanks you for the wonderful article.

re: Just a Question | 5:21 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008

This post is in response to the question about whether the LDS would honor a specific request left by a person not to be baptized by proxy. I have been in several leadership positions, but I am certainly not authorized to speak for the church and am simply sharing my opinion of what I think would likely happen.

I am not aware of a specific policy statement on this question, but the 11th Article of Faith states, "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

I am also aware of several cases where just such a request has been honored. In my own case, I would certainly honor such a request if it was made by an extended member of my own family.

R | 6:18 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008

//I was born in a Catholic Hospital and have learned that unbeknowns to my LDS parents, I might have been "baptised" a Catholic priest at that time//

Catholics are not supposed to baptize children against their parents' will; they want to only baptize children who will be raised in the faith. However, according to some, it's acceptable to do so if the child is dying.

Anonymous | 6:18 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008

Keith, Since all the hairs of our heads are numbered, and God even notices the fall of a sparrow, and GOD COMMANDED us to be baptized and his disciples to go to every land and isle of the sea to baptize them, and it is baptism that is required by God for the celestial kingdom, then it is ONLY FAIR that God provide a way for that to be done- which IS SHOWN in the Bible even!! Miracles have been happening with finding names since the church was restored. All will be found- and WILL get their choice! God is Good! Gramajane

CougarKeith | 8:27 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008

Here is the thing, it is all "Free Agency", we all are given the right to choose, no one person is forced ever by our Father In Heaven to do one thing. We have the choice to accept or reject a baptism, so any religion that wants to baptize me after I am dead, go for it!!! I know what I know, and I know my Father in Heaven will respect my ability to choose. So therefore, all those being given the choice to accept or reject a baptism are just being given another option, and if "Mormonism" is truth, we have done them a justice, and if it isn't, I guess we can just simply say, "No Harm, No Foul!"

Cool Article | 8:28 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008

I was expecting a completely different article, once I got through the first few paragraphs.

It turned out to be a great article about tolerance, acceptance, and family.

Regardless of your views on the subject, the author of this article showed genuine interest in his Mormon relatives, and showed genuine dignity in the way that he presented the information.

Thanks D News. You rarely get it, but you got it this time.

Ahmad | 8:50 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008

The LDS Church needs to make peace with the fact that they can't just do whatever they wish and expect other religions to "tolerate" them! When you call all other religions "an abomination," and you call all other "professors of religion" "corrupt", and you claim to be the "only true and living Church on the face of the earth," then you have a VERY intolerant Church and people! The only reason this Jewish family "made peace" with LDS Baptisms for the Dead is because they don't fully understand LDS Doctrine. If they did, they would know the LDS Church is the next generation of intolerant, fascist fundamentalist extremists, in line right behind Islamic Fundamentalists!

Dr. James M. Holland, Ph.D. | 8:51 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008

Agency prevails! No fate is ever sealed by anybody in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Church claims to have the authority to bind and seal on earth that which shall be sealed eternally in the heavens, based upon individual worthiness as determined by God, himself. Hence, husbands and wives, parents and children can be sealed forever as an eternal family unit, providing all the laws and commandments of God are obeyed with diligence and perseverance. Obviously, God is the final judge of his own childen. However, God's house is a house of order, and though he has prepared many mansions of glory, hereafter, nevertheless, in order to obtain the greatest and highest of these requires obdedience to the very laws upon which those blessings are predicated. That is pure logic, as well as revealed scripture, both ancient and modern.

Boris | 10:20 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008

Ahmad
The first major difference is Mormons don't force anyone to convert or suffer negative pressure such as beheading. Mormons baptize out of love. Many have rejected the LDS faith. We don't hate them and want to force their conversion.

Secondly anyone under 18 must have their parents permission to be baptized.

Thirdly Islam states unequivocally they have the truth and all others must be converted. There is nothing wrong in believing that. There is only one truth period. We may dispute what it is but if you believe you have the truth then by definition all others have to be incorrect. We can agree to disagree and sort it out in the hereafter if you want.

Mormons allow everyone to practice their religion and will not interfere with it. It is you right to worship who, what and how you may if you allow us to do the same.

We don't advocate the destruction of any country and/or people. We believe we are all brothers and sisters and that we should treat each other as such.

Your comments show you really have no idea who Mormons are or what we believe.

Check us out with an open mind.

Nancy Smith | 10:20 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008

I am grateful for this article. I am a jewish convert and my parents have always been opposed at idea of us baptising the Jews without their consent. I love how the author explains the plan in a loving "free choice" way. No one is being forced, rather, they are given the chance. When the Savior returns even the Jews will remember Him and be grateful that we have so lovingly prepared the way for those who didn't know in this love. I love the perfect plan of our Heavenly Father. No one is forgotten. Everyone matters.

Wendy R. | 11:32 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008

Thank you for publishing this excellent article. I'm all for dialogue and understanding, and I particularly love and respect the Jewish people.

kathyn | 11:34 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008

Doing work for the dead is done out of great love for everyone. If the Church is not true, then the work is invalid, but if the Church is true, then it affords every soul an opportunity to accept the gospel. I believe anyone who understands the doctrine should not offended by this.

Indeed, the doctrine of work for the dead assures me that my Heavenly Father loves all of His children and is no respecter of persons. Every single soul ever born will have a chance, whether in this life or the next, for salvation. It's wonderful, isn't it? I want all of my spiritual brothers and sisters to have the chance to accept or reject the gospel. This is the whole point of free agency. We needed to gain a body and have a chance to follow the Lord. We all have a body, but not everyone will learn about the Lord in this life.
So the Lord made a way for each of us to have an opportunity to be saved.

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