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Grand opening, but ... Real Salt Lake fails to make up ground in MLS playoff push
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Tough Decision | 11:58 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Hmmm...Watch RSL for big $$$ or watch weeds grow in my garden for free. Same
benefit, same entertainment, difference in cost. It's a tough decision but
I think I'll take the weeds given today's economy and the fact that
soccor shouldn't be considered a sport in America!
UTAH vs. BYU | 12:22 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
I really hope it is a tie this year, I would have for one team to feel bad. That
would be GREAT FUN.
If you do not use your upper torso, it is not a sport. I love riding bikes and mountain climbing, but it is not a sport. It is a recreation. Everytime I ride my bike it is a 'tie' I don't win or lose.
If you do not use your upper torso, it is not a sport. I love riding bikes and mountain climbing, but it is not a sport. It is a recreation. Everytime I ride my bike it is a 'tie' I don't win or lose.
Deployed | 12:25 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
I wish I could have been there for the game and ReAL could have won but at least
it was carried live in Colombia!
Comments continue below
Ryan | 12:25 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Great stadium. Only complaint was the seating. I'm a small guy, but next
to large fellows, it seemed to get a little tight. RES with the arm rests
really provided personal space that isn't there at rio tinto. Other than
that, great venue.
Excuses | 12:29 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Please quit using the idea that soccer is the most popular sport in the world as
an excuse for your lame game. Why does that matter? You live in America, where
soccer is generally regarded as a stupid game.
Rio Tinto Stadium | 12:36 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Sounds like we should be attending a Mexican hat dance with a name like that.
Denial! | 12:38 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
In the immortal words of Napoleon Dynomite, "Freakin' idiots!"
Soccer is a great game. I personally have little appreciation for baseball. But when I sat down with my nephew who plays and watches baseball all the time, I began to catch a glimpse of the intricacies and strategies of the game. It's the same with soccer, those who hate the game simply don't understand the game.
Think about American football. Do you get excited when you see the defense get up into press coverage on your best receiver and you see the receiver and the QB exchange a little nod? You're going nuts 'cause you know your team's about to break a big play. But the guy/gal next to you who has little understanding of the game is wondering why this stupid game has to take a 2 minute break after every play.
You don't have to become a soccer fan. No one's forcing you to. You can choose to be a fan of whatever sport you like. Or none at all. But to say that this sport is lame or for losers or whatever is ignorant and foolish.
Go RSL!
Soccer is a great game. I personally have little appreciation for baseball. But when I sat down with my nephew who plays and watches baseball all the time, I began to catch a glimpse of the intricacies and strategies of the game. It's the same with soccer, those who hate the game simply don't understand the game.
Think about American football. Do you get excited when you see the defense get up into press coverage on your best receiver and you see the receiver and the QB exchange a little nod? You're going nuts 'cause you know your team's about to break a big play. But the guy/gal next to you who has little understanding of the game is wondering why this stupid game has to take a 2 minute break after every play.
You don't have to become a soccer fan. No one's forcing you to. You can choose to be a fan of whatever sport you like. Or none at all. But to say that this sport is lame or for losers or whatever is ignorant and foolish.
Go RSL!
STEVE-O | 1:00 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
re: Tough Decision...
You're right on the money. America is so much better than the rest of the world. Our sports are the best and any other sports that we didn't come up with are irrelivent. Our money is the best too right? The dollar is way better than the Euro or Canadian Money. Our businesses are booming because of how great America is.
You'll have as much fun watching weeds grow in your garden as you would at a Professional Sports venue for sure. So go ahead and do that! And go drive your F350 around to show how American you are... buy some Mcdonalds while you're out there to add to your weight problem. Nobody is gonna change how you think or tell you what to do.
By the way... my ticket to the RSL game was $15. Probably pretty close to what you paid for your King Sized Fries and 44 Oz. Diet Coke to keep you busy while watching the weeds grow!
You're right on the money. America is so much better than the rest of the world. Our sports are the best and any other sports that we didn't come up with are irrelivent. Our money is the best too right? The dollar is way better than the Euro or Canadian Money. Our businesses are booming because of how great America is.
You'll have as much fun watching weeds grow in your garden as you would at a Professional Sports venue for sure. So go ahead and do that! And go drive your F350 around to show how American you are... buy some Mcdonalds while you're out there to add to your weight problem. Nobody is gonna change how you think or tell you what to do.
By the way... my ticket to the RSL game was $15. Probably pretty close to what you paid for your King Sized Fries and 44 Oz. Diet Coke to keep you busy while watching the weeds grow!
Trolls & Soccer | 1:01 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
After attending the game last night, I plan to go to many more games. My $18
ticket was far less than most sporting venues and there isn't a bad seat in
the house. It was great fun.
As for those whining about "my tax dollars" nonsense, the reality is you aren't paying for the stadium with "your tax dollars." The taxes are being drawn almost exclusively from consumption taxes BY OUT OF STATE VISITORS.
For true fans, don't pay attention to those who hate soccer. I grew up not liking or playing soccer, but watching MLS the past few years after World Cup 2006 made me a huge fan. Their is great athleticism and I had no idea how physical the game was until I attended.
Finally, the Jazz and any other sporting venues seems like a bad investment (and yes, Larry Miller did get public funding), but the Jazz are great for the local economy, local pride, and bring positive attention to our state. RSL will do the same with the best new stadium in the MLS.
Let the bitter beer faces complain about taxes and their own ignorance of a great international sport.
As for those whining about "my tax dollars" nonsense, the reality is you aren't paying for the stadium with "your tax dollars." The taxes are being drawn almost exclusively from consumption taxes BY OUT OF STATE VISITORS.
For true fans, don't pay attention to those who hate soccer. I grew up not liking or playing soccer, but watching MLS the past few years after World Cup 2006 made me a huge fan. Their is great athleticism and I had no idea how physical the game was until I attended.
Finally, the Jazz and any other sporting venues seems like a bad investment (and yes, Larry Miller did get public funding), but the Jazz are great for the local economy, local pride, and bring positive attention to our state. RSL will do the same with the best new stadium in the MLS.
Let the bitter beer faces complain about taxes and their own ignorance of a great international sport.
STEVE-O | 1:03 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
On a more serious note... the game was a lot of fun and my family loved the new
stadium! Every seat is close and has a great view of the action.
I was pretty disappointed with our mid feild. Probably the worst game Will Johnson has ever played. His touch was completely off. Same goes for Yura. I think we should have brought Deuchar in earlier despite his lack of quality play lately. RSL had 4 shots on goal in the last 6 minutes because Deuchar was winning the ball in the air. Hope they can push into the playoffs.
I was pretty disappointed with our mid feild. Probably the worst game Will Johnson has ever played. His touch was completely off. Same goes for Yura. I think we should have brought Deuchar in earlier despite his lack of quality play lately. RSL had 4 shots on goal in the last 6 minutes because Deuchar was winning the ball in the air. Hope they can push into the playoffs.
to Go Soccer GO | 1:07 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
I am really sorry you feel it is 'Real' football. Not here in the USA.
ESPN should do away with NFL tonight for Soccer tonight.
I admit, I am glad they have it here in Utah. So many kids do love it. I am sure your kid loves it and I am sure you have a blast coaching it. Honestly if my kid could not play football, baseball or basketball, I would put him in soccer. Even the non- athletic kids deserve some recreation. Sorry your kid struck out with 'Real' sports
I admit, I am glad they have it here in Utah. So many kids do love it. I am sure your kid loves it and I am sure you have a blast coaching it. Honestly if my kid could not play football, baseball or basketball, I would put him in soccer. Even the non- athletic kids deserve some recreation. Sorry your kid struck out with 'Real' sports
face feeders | 1:07 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Sorry that true football , where players kick a ball with their foot, is
continuous without momentum breaking time-outs and 5 minute TV breaks after
every 2 minutes of play so you true sports fans can revisit the endless
concessions and throw yet another pizza and 64oz Dr Pepper drink down your
already well fed throats, waving your big finger #1 styrofoam fingers in the air
whilst shouting WOO WOO .. oh .. don't forget to dye your big guts your
team color while you are at it ;-)
Biggest sport in the world... | 1:19 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Who cares if people in the rest of the world play soccer and not football or
basketball. That is their problem.
Did you see that pass?! | 1:22 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Oh my gosh, did you see that pass???? He kicked the ball all the way across the
field!!! WOW!! This game was sooooo exciting. For about 2 seconds I thought it
might not end in a tie!!!!!
Living in the past | 1:33 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
I coach high school soccer. Last year our forwards were the star running back
from the football team and the star point guard from our basketball team. All
our defenders were on the high school football team and two of our midfielders
played both basketball and football. They would all be very surprised to find
out soccer is a sport for kids who cannot make it in other sports. Maybe
that's how it was 40 years ago. You need to stop living in the past. You
don't have the best athletes on your high school soccer team and you will
be killed by everyone.
wanna talk wasted tax money | 1:33 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
so the stadium WAS NOT WASTED TAX MONEY. Becuase, well IT WASNT TAX MONEY.
the waste of tax money is the expo center across the street with thousands of parking spots... THAT WERE CLOSED TO THE PUBLIC?
can someone please explain to me why that lot was not open to public parking?
the waste of tax money is the expo center across the street with thousands of parking spots... THAT WERE CLOSED TO THE PUBLIC?
can someone please explain to me why that lot was not open to public parking?
magnus | 1:38 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
@ face feeders
You can wink all you want but I have seen Soccer fans and foam fingers and body paint may as well be seat cushions and makeup compared to the crap that they come up with. At least Football fans just drink alcohol and pass out after their team loses instead of lighting it on fire and trying to tear down the city.
You can wink all you want but I have seen Soccer fans and foam fingers and body paint may as well be seat cushions and makeup compared to the crap that they come up with. At least Football fans just drink alcohol and pass out after their team loses instead of lighting it on fire and trying to tear down the city.
Re: face feeders | 1:47 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Yeah, you're right...soccer FANS are in peak physical condition.
Watch that video again and pay close attention to the way soccer fans adorn themselves. Then come back and make fun of the atire of football fans.
Watch that video again and pay close attention to the way soccer fans adorn themselves. Then come back and make fun of the atire of football fans.
STEVE-O | 1:52 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
And one more thing... I know how to solve the low scores for all you soccer
haters! We'll just count each goal as 6 points like the NFL does. That
way we can finish with scores like 12-6 or Maybe even a 18-0. Then everybody is
happy.
Athlete vs Fathlete | 2:01 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
My soccer son can beat up your football son.
Hey face feeder | 2:01 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
At least when AMERICAN football players are hurt...they are really hurt. You
don't see a player carted off on a stretcher and 2 min later back in the
game, like the non-shaved long hair loser is back on the soccer field.
David | 2:34 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
"wanna talk wasted tax money": I checked on that. The Expo Center is
owned by Salt Lake County. Apprently, they didn't want all their parking
used, but I couldn't get a reason as to why.
LOL | 2:35 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Such recoil by the Soccor lovers...Take a joke man, it's like the BYU-Utah
sparring that goes on. Don't take it so personally. Oh, and don't go
to the John during your soccor game, you might miss the breaking of the 0-0 tie!
And don't tell me soccor fan isn't fat too...I know better.
To: Denial | 2:37 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
THANK YOU for making my point. Anybody who would think soccor is a sport would
also put stock in something Napoleon Dynamite says! Let me guess, you've
been up to Preston to "tour" the sites too, right?
Soccor: The biggest lifelong injury sport you could let your young daughter get in to!!!
Soccor: The biggest lifelong injury sport you could let your young daughter get in to!!!
RE: Athlete vs Fathlete | 2:41 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
ROFLMAO-Now THAT's a good one! (And I'm with the football fans who
think soccor is for girls.)
There, I can take a ribbing and come back for more. Keep it up Athlete. I liked that one.
I also liked the soccor fan telling the football fan he was a geek when soccor fan tramples people to death and starts fires after games. Looks like 6 of 1 and half dozen of the other to me.
There, I can take a ribbing and come back for more. Keep it up Athlete. I liked that one.
I also liked the soccor fan telling the football fan he was a geek when soccor fan tramples people to death and starts fires after games. Looks like 6 of 1 and half dozen of the other to me.
hey Steve-0 | 2:44 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Great idea, only one problem. Football may end up 12-6 or 18-0, but it would not
end 0-0 or 6-6. Even if you counted goals as 100 points, last nights lame game
would have been a 100-100 tie. HOW EXCITING.
By the way...on the subject of Fans. PPPLLLEEEAAASSSEEE!!!
Have you see the soccer fans in the rest of the world? They do stuff that would make the most die-hard Raider fan blush.
By the way...on the subject of Fans. PPPLLLEEEAAASSSEEE!!!
Have you see the soccer fans in the rest of the world? They do stuff that would make the most die-hard Raider fan blush.
to: Living in the past | 1:33 p. | 2:46 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Oh,,,OK....we believe you
Star running back, star of the basketball team....hmmmm...maybe at a 1A school, but even that is unlikely. Please don't come on here and make stuff up.
Star running back, star of the basketball team....hmmmm...maybe at a 1A school, but even that is unlikely. Please don't come on here and make stuff up.
To Draw = Defense | 2:49 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
The point is that there is no winner. Are you honestly telling me that you
wouldn't prefer a shoot out of some sort. I will never have any interest
of attending an event that has the potential of no resolution.
How many people want to see Utah/BYU Tie at anything?
How many people want to see Utah/BYU Tie at anything?
in regards to ties | 2:57 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
The reason for ties at the end of regulation in the MLS is because of TV
contracts. Soccer is a free flowing sport that does not not allow the ability to
advertise like our more understood sports. Therefore the tv stations have
created a clause in their contracts to make it more "feasible" to
televise the lower tv ranking sport that is soccer in America. Therefore, to get
MLS on TV they made a compromise.
In regards to faking injuries | 3:00 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Please someone research how much a player walks, runs and sprints in those 90+
minutes then go try it your self...here is a thought...go on a 30 minute run
through a neighborhood...jog on the sidewalks, sprint the intersections and
stand when you are waiting for the roads to clear. Lets see how long you last.
That practice is a 3rd of the time, requires no lateral movement and nobody
running in to you while he and you are at full pace.
Good luck.
Oh yeah, ever stubbed your toe on a coffee table...hurts like heXX. Now try running as fast as you can and have someone step on your foot or collide in to your shin...pads or no pads...it stings.
Please know that I hate the fakes too...but dude, play the game...it stings!
Good luck.
Oh yeah, ever stubbed your toe on a coffee table...hurts like heXX. Now try running as fast as you can and have someone step on your foot or collide in to your shin...pads or no pads...it stings.
Please know that I hate the fakes too...but dude, play the game...it stings!
Soccer is so popular... | 3:27 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Yes it is more popular across the world, but so is living in a house without
carpet.
I would rather have carpet than not, also I'd rather watch or play the real football (the one where people don't flop all over the place, the one where you can have contact with another person)
I would rather have carpet than not, also I'd rather watch or play the real football (the one where people don't flop all over the place, the one where you can have contact with another person)
Athlete vs Fathlete | 3:27 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
I would love to see your soccer son beat up my football soon. I really would.
Anytime, in fact.
STEVE-O | 3:37 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
re: steve-o
You're right the game could still end in a tie. To me it's not any less exciting than the Steelers vs. Browns game on T.V. a few weeks ago. 10-6 was the score in that one! I love every sport but clearly there are pros and cons to each sport. In two weeks the regular season will be over and the playoffs will start! Then we'll see some intense games that will NOT end in a tie.
And to "To Draw = Defense" You said "I will never have any interest in attending an event that has the potential of no resolution." I guess you don't watch the NFL then because there's potential the game could end in a tie. You're really limited aren't you!
You're right the game could still end in a tie. To me it's not any less exciting than the Steelers vs. Browns game on T.V. a few weeks ago. 10-6 was the score in that one! I love every sport but clearly there are pros and cons to each sport. In two weeks the regular season will be over and the playoffs will start! Then we'll see some intense games that will NOT end in a tie.
And to "To Draw = Defense" You said "I will never have any interest in attending an event that has the potential of no resolution." I guess you don't watch the NFL then because there's potential the game could end in a tie. You're really limited aren't you!
to in regards to ties | 2:57 p.m | 3:55 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Come on...who needs a compromise. Get all your soccer buddies together and
demand all the networks to show all the games on TV and have a shoot out without
any ties. Tell them what you tell the soccer haters...."It is the most
popular sport in America"
Andy Williams was not missed | 4:01 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
They guys has a ton of minutes for the year, two assists and one goal. He
isn't much of a player at all. He has taken 40 shots of which only 9 were
on goal. He isn't a good player. Olave has more goals and Olave is a
fullback and has played in fewer games this year. There is something wrong with
that and all you Andy worshippers need to know the facts. With the money we are
paying him we could get a much better player. It's close to $90,000 a year.
We have traded many good players over the years and have kept Williams. I
don't see the reason. He has one good moment for every 15 mistakes. Give
him the nudge at the end of the season. He hasn't earned his keep.
RE: In regards to faking injury | 4:03 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
"...but dude, play the game...it stings!"
No way...after what you described. I think it is a real man's sport now. I would never try it, not if it stings! Count me out. I see the light now.
*Soccer IS a sport
*Soccer players don't fake injuries
*Soccer Fans are great, they don't throw bags of.....on the other teams
*We should Soccer in the US, since the rest of the world does.
*Soccer kids are real athletes
I am sorry, I was so wrong. Thanks for setting me straight.
No way...after what you described. I think it is a real man's sport now. I would never try it, not if it stings! Count me out. I see the light now.
*Soccer IS a sport
*Soccer players don't fake injuries
*Soccer Fans are great, they don't throw bags of.....on the other teams
*We should Soccer in the US, since the rest of the world does.
*Soccer kids are real athletes
I am sorry, I was so wrong. Thanks for setting me straight.
its raining | 4:13 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
oh wait, it isn't raining. Its the haters crying about RSL. Get a life!
or get a second life! Please do something rather than talk about something you
know nothing about.
Anonymous | 4:16 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
What a waste of money!
McKay | 4:19 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Typical American ignorance at it's best. If we didn't invent it, if
we don't understand it, if we weren't coordinated enough to play it,
or if we simply just don't like it then we have to try and knock it down
and call it second rate. No wonder majority of the rest of the world can't
stand the United States... well that and GWB
AWESOME GAME!! | 4:32 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
I came in from the Grand Staircase on the North West side and it was beautiful.
As I came in view of the field lit up and gorgeous my heart was singing!
It is so great to have a home!
Andy Williams was sitting on the North West corner with his wife and daughter. He was super cool with the fans.
I think there were maybe a couple hundred empty seats in the entire stadium (Southwest corner) but it was basically packed!
I know lots of people don't like soccer but our group of season ticket holders has grown from 8 to 14 in 3 years.
GO RSL!!
It is so great to have a home!
Andy Williams was sitting on the North West corner with his wife and daughter. He was super cool with the fans.
I think there were maybe a couple hundred empty seats in the entire stadium (Southwest corner) but it was basically packed!
I know lots of people don't like soccer but our group of season ticket holders has grown from 8 to 14 in 3 years.
GO RSL!!
Your act is old Troll | 4:50 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Dude, we get it already. you've posted on this forum all day with
different headings. You don't like Soccer. You think they aren't
athletes. You think the whole stadium is a waste. Your intelligence is superior
to the entire human race. We should clone you and eliminate the entire
population of soccer lovers. Then you and your clones can tear down the soccer
stadium and the world will have no soccer and the world will be a better place
and ..............
blah, blah, blah ad nauseum.
Could you be any more predictable?
blah, blah, blah ad nauseum.
Could you be any more predictable?
Anonymous | 4:57 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
I'm loving the excuses of the soccer haters. You People sound like Jim
Rome, who's 18yr. old son
plays, you guess it "SOCCER". Just too funny.
plays, you guess it "SOCCER". Just too funny.
It's interesting | 5:00 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
I'm human, of course, and I get angry when I'm repeatedly insulted,
especially by low blows as many of these are.
But another part of me loves that people just CAN'T HANDLE IT. They're so insecure they can't even see an article vaguely related to soccer they have to moan and wail about it.
It got built, you lost, that must really hurt to see people lashing out like 4 year olds. Don't break your Tonka trucks!
But another part of me loves that people just CAN'T HANDLE IT. They're so insecure they can't even see an article vaguely related to soccer they have to moan and wail about it.
It got built, you lost, that must really hurt to see people lashing out like 4 year olds. Don't break your Tonka trucks!
Re: Andy Williams was not | 5:07 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
FINALLY!!!!!! Bellouchi(sp?) was a million times the player Andy is, just for an
easy example. By the way where are all the Mathis haters now? Yura sucked last
night. I've decided he is offically the Greg Ostertag of RSL. Big, tons of
pottential, lazy, and over-rated. At least we didn't lose. And at least as
far as ties at home go, this one sort of felt like a win with us coming from
behind and all. The atmosphere was amazing last night. I hope to find a way to
afford season tickets for next year. I can tell from what I saw it most
definetely was sold out. There were more people there than at any Jazz game. I
loved it!
Ikaika #7 | 5:07 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
All the soccer haters can keep crying and all the soccer lovers should just not
say anything to them. I love soccer i say it's the best sport in the world.
If you don't like soccer don't watch it or complain about it. A lot of
Utah love the sport so Real is going nowhere. I'm going to play for them.
By the way Real is third in the west so how do they suck.
By the way Real is third in the west so how do they suck.
STEVE-O | 5:32 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Andy Williams is a Midfeilder that distributes the ball. As a midfeilder myself
I know that the game is often won or lost at that position. Which team can
control the middle, which team can distribute good balls forward, which team can
hold posession rather than turn it over quickly. RSL could have won that game
with a quicker attack and more posession and Andy Williams does just that!
He's not a magnificent goal scorer but he does his job as a midfeilder.
Soccer is REAL | 6:32 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
re: faked injuries - is 12 stitches in your head fakery?
re ties: it's much more exciting to know there is no fairy tale endings and that the result isn't faked or forced. NY and RSL are on equal points over the whole season and were equal over the course of 90 minutes - a tie sounds like the correct result to me.
re ties: it's much more exciting to know there is no fairy tale endings and that the result isn't faked or forced. NY and RSL are on equal points over the whole season and were equal over the course of 90 minutes - a tie sounds like the correct result to me.
Checketts and the Guv.. | 10:42 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
really got one over on us. Good for them. The rich get richer.
Here is an Idea | 2:01 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Why don't you wait for RSL to fail so you can tear down the stadium and use
the land to build a bigger stadium for Utah's NFL team. Oh Wait... Utah
doesn't have an NFL team. I win, you lose!!!
Long Live Real Salt Lake and Rio Tinto Stadium!
P.S. Anyone who thinks Bama is not a key factor behind RSL's wins knows nothing about the game.
Long Live Real Salt Lake and Rio Tinto Stadium!
P.S. Anyone who thinks Bama is not a key factor behind RSL's wins knows nothing about the game.
A thought from Homer S | 5:00 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008
BORING!!!!!
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This should not even be considered as a school liability issue. It is the...
Look for Wynn to have a HUGE game. He's playing in his own backyard and the...
I agree with KM, 4:47 p.m. I am truly scared for our country.
If Devore's claims are baseless then what is IHC's big concern?
re I think: You got the right to post anything you feel like ( we are not...
As a long snapper at my high school I know how frustrating it can be when...
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