Deseret News | FLDS girls to attend classes on underage marriage

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FLDS girls to attend classes on underage marriage

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Laughing | 3:21 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008

Now that was a a funny statement! "We've got a good judge down there that won't allow CPS to take away children..."

Almost spit my coffee all over the screen when I read that! Unless, of course, Ticer isn't speaking about Walther, the judge that signed the order for all the children from non-abusive homes to be taken and KEPT in captivity, and is still holding one poor girl for the sole purpose of causing mental anguish to her mother and father.

Yup. Great judge 'down there.'

Joey | 6:30 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008

I suppose this is really about teaching children who their real parents are and who to go to for help: *the state*. "Birth parents" are just temporary guardians, and may pose a risk to you. It's okay to look at them more-or-less as imposters in your life.

zxcvbnm | 6:54 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008

What a laugh...first we read that they are "asked to attend". How quaint.
Then after reading on a bit it is discovered that they are required to the attend classes.
Did the reporter use "CPS speak" because that language was provided in the news wire or did the reporter try to soften the reality of the State "reducation " requirements.
The reality of the situation is that the parents are being coerced into a nonchoice and the audience is a captive group.

Comments continue below

CPS classes | 8:12 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008

Perhaps the CPS workers need to be given a class on the differences between the Stalinist and American conceptions of civil rights.

realitycheck | 8:43 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008

It's about time someone told these girls that they DON'T have to marry some old geezer. It's just too bad the parents are so inept and so brainwashed.

Next thing you know, the FLDS will be stoning those girls for saying NO. That's about the extent of their capacity - they should just admit their tendencies and move to Afghanistan where they would fit right in with the other religious extremists.

Go see the movie Religulous and you'll see just how out of touch these people are. Don't know how they can fall for all the crazy tales but not believe in Santa Claus.... Seems to me if you're going to believe in wild tales you might as well believe in all of them...

zxcvbnm | 9:00 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008

When will the investigation begin that was promised by Meisner.

Looks like the CPS will be provideing hundreds of classes to mitigate the damage caused by two months of captivity that they subjected innocent children to. I guess seperation anxiety isn't listed in the CPS manuel when the instigater is CPS.
Isn't the number up to 315 innocent children......children not subject to abuse. Those are the latest numbers provided by Crimmins after his thourough investigation..........aren't they??????

John D. | 9:23 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008

Perhaps the State should have kept the kids to start with. Otherwise, the perversion continues. To the comments above: Living in America does not give anybody the right to abuse children, even their own. This is, in fact, a classic case of civil rights, the rights of the children. It is unfortunate that our Attorney General will not stand up.

Stoning? | 9:40 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008

Ex-member Carolyn Jessop talks about this in her book, Escape. When they went into town wearing their pastel dresses, "People called us 'polygs' and sometimes threw rocks at us." America hasn't advanced at all. It's just changed the groups it's acceptable to hate.

Gordo | 11:18 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008

Ex-member Carolyn Jessop, that's the one who said in her book that she was married at age 18, right? And she told about the other FLDS girls who were older than her and were so jealous of her being married ahead of them, is that the one? But...but...I'm so confused. If she was 18 when she was married, and the other older girls who weren't married yet were jealous of her, how did they all get to be so old when everybody KNOWS that all FLDS girls are required to marry lecherous old geezers before they reach puberty.

Maybe Eilissa Wall can shed some light on this quandry for us, after all, she was definitely underage when she was married according to her book, "Stolen Innocence". But her "husband" was only nineteen, hardly an old geezer, and she was his only "wife". OK, I'll grant that she should have never been coerced into that kind of relationship, that was criminal, but it still doesn't fit the common wisdom of underage girls being inevitably forced into multiple marriage with lecherous old geezers. I'm looking into the anti-FLDS literature and not finding basis for the "common wisdom" here.

one more insult | 11:52 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008

This is just one more CPS insult to those poor parents and young girls. CPS can't even hope to convince those girls against their religion in 4 hours. It will only serve to strengthen their beliefs, and let them know they for sure don't want to grow up to be like CPS workers, who don't even believe in having their own children, but must steal other people's children for money.

re zxcvbnm 9am | 12:24 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008

you said - "Looks like the CPS will be provideing hundreds of classes to mitigate the damage caused by two months of captivity that they subjected innocent children to."

what? two months?

think again. it's been decades at least. Most have been captive for their entire lives. What don't you get?

It is true | 12:46 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008

That some polygamist girls marry young--it is also very true that many of them don't. I have a friend who was married at 23 or 24 to a man nearly 20 years older than she was--of her own free will, having known him several years and loving him. They planned before the marriage that he would take other wives and she actually picked one of them. She has college educated, unmarried daughters who are in their early twenties.
It's not a lifestyle I advocate or would choose for myself, but I think we need to be careful not to make blanket judgments about polygamists or their lifestyle. And I'm not FLDS and I don't live in Utah, either.
It's never been unusual for women to marry men older than they are--in fact, it is even considered "normal" in many segments of society. The wife gets a man who is established in his career and the man gets a wife who is young enough to bear his children healthily. This used to be considered a good thing.

REREZXC | 1:14 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008

Two months of captivity by CPS....FT. Concho, The Auditorium, The foster care facilities......Captivity prior to SCOTEX mandating the return of the children by CPS.
Crimmins cited time was needed for an extensive investigation........315 kids released......CPS verified no abuse.
Meisner promised an investigation into conditions at the CPS facilities.....
What don't you get..........315 innocent kids so far.......by CPS standards.

achick47 | 1:23 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008

I found it interesting that only one of these comments addressed the classes being given. These classes are to inform these young girls that they have rights under the laws of the USA. The instructors are Therapist who are trained in abuse and family marriage areas. The therapist are not a part of CPS and do not have an agenda. I hope the children at least take away the knowledge that they are free agents and can say NO if they are frightened by a practice that they do not understand. And maybe just maybe the parents will realize that what may be a lifestyle thaat suits them is not a lifestyle for some of thier grown daughters. I did not make the same choices as my parents anymore than any of you did. We all make the choices that are right for our time and for us. I do not live in Utah and am not Flds I do however live in Texas and have many ethical prob;ems with the raid. I am LDS and live near the compound until the raid I had only seen one or two of the men in town no families.

itgerlily | 3:54 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008

joey: i'm sure these kids know who their parents are. i'm sure these children were told they had to attend these classes.

Davis | 4:38 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008

Will they do the same to girls of all religions? Especially the inner city underaged pregnant ones?
How about Sarah Palins kid if she ever visits Texas?

RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION is what this is called.

zxcvbnm | 5:13 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008

RE: achick47 ........A captive audience is being presented CPS approved information by CPS paid "therapists". The "lifestyle" that fits the parents is called a religion and parents have the right to instruct their children in religious docterine.
The assumption that the children "need" to be meddled with by state approved professionals is in and of itself a violation of the parents rights to religious freedom and the childrens right to be raised by their parents.
These people are convicted of no crime and are in no need of theraputic meddling by psyco babble gurus.

SomeGuy | 6:16 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008

Since they have dropped most of the cases for lack of evidence how is it possible that they can demand this?
Leave these people alone. And shame on you LDS church members who support or sdtand idly by and watch this happen. First first, my rear-end!

Some Guy | 6:17 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008

I meant "Family first, my rear-end."

magdalena | 6:52 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008

Thank God! This is a wonderful move. There have been 9 indictments related to under age sex. These girls need to know that they do not need to accept sexual abuse as normal behavior, that they have options. Really, why would any loving parent object to an age appropriate class to teach a child to identify and protect themselves from sexual abuse????

FEMINISM | 7:10 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008

Reader comments: FLDS girls to attend classes on underage marriage

LESSONS AND TRAINING ON: "AGGRESSIVE FEMINISM?"

GiGi13 | 7:51 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008

zxcvbnm | 9:00 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008 Isn't the number up to 315 innocent children......children not subject to abuse.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't understand what non-suiting means.

It means that those children have been "dropped from court oversight" because the parents have agreed to "CPS oversight" and are providing their children with a safe environment.

Older men marrying younger | 8:55 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008

girls may have been "acceptable" in certain segments of society, but those times have passed. I'm shocked (but not really surprised) on the number of people on these websites that would still like to live in the past. FLDS people live in the past and it is documented that when exposed to the present, many young women don't want to.
Classes or whatever is available to help young women see that they have choices is good.
Those of you that are threatened by feminism should look up the definition. You are in the past too.

Rico | 10:00 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008

Can someone shed some light on this for me? It was my understanding that texas changed the age of consent just prior to their raid on the "compound"?
If that is the case, will texas require all persons married before the law was changed to take the same classes? And if not, won't they be concerned that they'll be perceived as attacking a select group of people?

Anonymous | 10:33 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008

The main problem here is a man like Warren Jeffs who misused his power and talked twelve year olds and their mothers into letting him "Marry" them. Another problem was the breaking up and reassigning family members. His relatives and friends were the recipients of these underage brides and wives and children. I don't think that this was an across the board problem...but mostly with the men in leadership. They certainly have gone astray in their edicts. Now that Jeffs is in prison, maybe these people will rethink what has been going on. I sympathize with what the children went through, but it seems that the CPS were very careful in how they placed and took care of the children...and many of the mothers were with them. As dreadful as it was for the YFZ, maybe it got their attention and helped them rethink the policies that include underage marriages and expulsion of young boys. There are so many fundamental problems with this group, that surely no one can believe that the religion is inspired by God.

raina | 10:46 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008

I cant beleive the state is making children as young as ten years old take these classes.

Think | 11:08 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008

Some comments here only reflect the information given by CPS and the news media. "If FLDS speaks, they're wrong," is the attitude of some here. They say something, "forget it." The news gives their perspective especially from ex-
FLDS, "That's too bad, something ought to be done." A reply from FLDS comes through the news, "Hogwash." What do some people think? Maybe an open mind and a little bit of sense might be refreshing for some, that is to weigh things out, compare the credibility of each and think it through.

CPS Shame | 8:03 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008

The CPS has no shame.

It will be a good day when they are prosecuted. Let's see terror in THEIR EYES.

As for the class, well, until we know the REAL content, the class should be postponed. There should be an independent council appointed to oversee the CPS actions and make sure they fall within the law. Sad that the court (WaCkY WaLtHeR) and the CPS cannot be trusted.

Appoint an independent council.

Michigander | 8:43 a.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Those classes are not about feminism or sex ed.
They need to have 10 year old girls in there to let them know that it is not OK to be married off at 12.
that it is against the law and that their husbands could go to jail for it. Also that they have options if they do not want to be in an arranged marriage, neither do they have to suffer abuse.
It's a good thing for them to be informed.

tigerlily | 12:42 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

some guy: the lds church has nothing whatsoever to do with the flds

tigerlily | 12:47 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

is it true: not all flds people live in utah

zxcvbnm | 12:55 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

It is the right of parents to inform their children about all matters concerning their religion and social upbringing.
These people have broken no laws and should not be required by he State to submit to anything.
What's next........instructions on the moon landing.....political correctness.........how about diversity training. Will the kids be required to wear red dresses or tee-shirts before this bunch of meddling dogooders it thru.

what??? | 1:07 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

You think a 10 year old can't be sexually abused? That sounds like you are daring Warren Jeffs to brake a record there.

Feminism = the idea that women are human beings. Teaching a girl her rights is certainly in line with that idea. Although I am sure their "religion" is probably against that idea as well. ::eye roll::

AUTHORITARIAN FEMINISM | 1:54 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

EVIDENCE OF POPE'S OPINION & INFLUENCE IN THIS CASE

POPE [INFERRED] MESSAGE TO ALL WOMAN AS AN INSTRUMENT OR WEAPON:

...Use ï¿½feminine genius,ï¿½ CWL convention told

to use aggressive feminism (with agressive secularism) and

to use authoritarian feminism (with aggressive secularism),

"to keep anti-bigamy law on the books"

"to thread polygamists and children of polygamists as victims facing emotional issues

in need of psycological/psychyatric treatment and services

Available at:

NEGATIVE FEMINISM | 1:58 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

LESSONS AND TRAINING ON: AUTHORITARIAN FEMINISM with aggressive secularism.

zxcvbn | 7:55 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

Warren Jeffs is in jail..........and women have the right to teach their children the religion of their choice.
Those kids are still captives of a CPS system whose only objective is to take away the rights of the parents.
Roll your eyes if you wish.......the WOMEN have rights....the right to chose their religion and instruct their children in accordance with that religion.
Being forced to submit to forced instruction and "therapy" by persons doing the bidding of the state is a violation of the rights of the women to live and practice a religion of their choseing.
The children are pawns in a corrupt system and are being subjected to "instruction" that is no better than the brainwashing that flds is accused of.
The lifestyle that Voss was intent on changeing does not exist,,,,,,,,the pregnant teens were adults,,,,and the children were not in emminent danger,,,,,,,,,they need to be released from CPS control and be free to live their lives as they chose.

Andrea | 10:24 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

"These people have broken no laws and should not be required by he State to submit to anything."

Umm.... Have you been living under a rock?! They have broken many laws including breaking the law of consent which says that a child under the age of 17 can not consent to have sex with anyone who is more then 2 years older or younger then them. The marriage of the 12 year old was breaking the law. Texas legal marriage age was not 12 years old even before the FLDS moved into the state. There was evidence of underage girls having babies. Jeffs has a daughter who was married off and had babies at the age of 17 so the age of conception was 16.

Laws have been broken. They were broken by a man who used his power to twist the religion to get what he wanted and gave kickbacks (young brides) to his friends. Its sad that the followers have to suffer but its the way the world works. I hope that the women and children learn to forgive the world and that the groups is lead by someone who is not corrupt.

Andrea | 10:47 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

It is a proven fact by not one but two courts in Texas that there was no abuse in almost all of the families. The supreme court of Texas said that each family had to be tried individually. So far over 3/4 of the families have been dropped from court over-sight. They do not drop children from court oversight if there is any known abuse in a family. The "dropped" children are free to move to New York City tomorrow if they please.

Requiring a family that was not guilty of any abuse to undergo religious re-education by the state is against our constitution.

These are the non-abusive families they are demanding be educated by the state in state ordered doctrine.

Anonymous | 12:05 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

Texas CPS is trying to save face.

Andrea | 12:36 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

"So far over 3/4 of the families have been dropped from court over-sight. They do not drop children from court oversight if there is any known abuse in a family."

The children were in an environment where they saw abuse happen everyday. They saw a young 12 girl get married to a man that is much older then her. They saw other underage marriages happen and they did nothing. The state is now making sure that the children are in safe environments and are no longer witnesses to abuse. The state is not forcing them to stop practicing their religion. They are making sure that other parents dont allow their children to be married off at a young age. They are also educating the girls in what is a safe relationship and what is not.

I do agree that the state was overreaching with the removal of all the children and the treatment of the families at the beginning. But also think that children should not be exposed to abuse even if they are not being abused.

Investigator of Quasi-Suspects | 1:26 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

So FLDS Parents are "quasi-suspects of what activities?"

FACT/FICTION | 1:46 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

MULTI-PURPOSE CLASSES: (FACT/FICTION) Texas CPS classes are small meetings with experts designed to make further assessment and evaluation on the children like debriefing. Texas CPS is not only teaching impressionable age children: That parents are not as competent as the government.

This is designed (a) to create false memories and (b) to erase from the memory of children the damages of the raid, (c) to cover-up steps, and spin the damages caused by the raid on the impressionable-age children. Then, Texas CPS will make report exonerating themselves from any damages, so Texas and Texas CPS don't have to pay millions and millions of dollars for emotional damages.

CPS Abused | 5:34 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

Andrea obviously overlooks the obvious: the children got abused by CPS, not their parents. If the children were abused wouldn't they want to go away from their parents? Well also while you answer that question leave the brainwashing part out because that classified could fit into any term for any person in the US if you wanted to say they were brainwashed then say on. Saying thus only proves your own views not the facts. Obviously the children love their parents so let them alone! Punish the aggressor not the innocent. If the children were happy among FLDS then let them alone and live.

FALLACY HUNTER | 10:27 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

Reader comments: FLDS girls to attend classes

DEBUNK FALLACIES OF FEMINAZI LESSONS

Gal50 | 2:13 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

He who doth protest too much....

Judging by the posts here, it seems the FLDS men are very upset about these CPS required courses which threaten the power structure within the FLDS. Finally, the girls are going to be told that what these old men have been doing to them is not religious, but criminal.

The FLDS men have a false sense of entitlement. They have engineered a society that indoctrinates girls to believe they want to have sex with old men for free. The people outside of the FLDS don't pervert their religion to this extent. Old men who want sex with young women are forced to pay for it.

There are enough FLDS writings on the Internet that make it obvious that these young girls would choose young men if they weren't indoctrinated to accept old men.

Someone asks why 10 year-old girls are required to take this course. The answer is that girls as young as 12 have been married and it appears from the photos that these girls are indoctrinated before that age to want these men.

These courses are probably a requirement for girls prior to non-suiting. The quoted lawyer is right on.

nosugrof | 2:47 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

One of the mental health workers at Fort Concho observed that CPS was focused on the sexual abuse that was alleged than on the severe emotional abuse that CPS was inflicting. Nothing has changed.

zxcvbnm | 7:08 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

gal 5o........What many call indoctrination others call religious training.
Just because a minority of FLDS men may have abused their trust is no reason to lump them all in the same pile.
Get out your Bible..........the cultural and religious requirements for marraige are in there.
Even Jeffs used the religious books of his faith to justify his behavior.
The question as to whether the alleged behavior of a few was related to religious dogma or a concerted effort to molest young girls for the sake of only sexual gratification has not been proven.
It will be interesting if after the State mandated classes some 13 year old "marries" a 35 year old and states.........It was my choice as a free person in a free country to follow my belief in my God and Marry the man I loved.

CABAL | 12:37 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008

TEXAS CPS MAY USE CABAL!

CABAL FOR FLDS | 1:13 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008

Reader comments: FLDS girls to attend classes

TEXAS CPS IS SENDING FLDS CHILDREN A MESSAGE OF CABAL!

TEXAS CPS IS SENDING FLDS CHILDREN A MESSAGE THAT (Ultra-Secular Texas CPS Government is better than FLDS parents).

TEXAS CPS IS RECRUITING CHILDREN AS INFORMANTS.

TEXAS CPS IS RECRUITING CHILDREN FOR CABAL.

Joey | 8:24 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008

At best estimates only one in ten FLDS girls marry underage. So why is it that the CPS is punishing the other nine with all these restrictions, forced classes and living arrangements, kidnappings and foster care, etc.?

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