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Calls about Prop. 8 not imminent
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Serious Consequences | 10:41 p.m. Oct. 9, 2008
The legal aspects of this issue are downright scary. For the first time in our
nation's history, we are seeing behavior given (or at least attempted to) a
civil-rights status. Marriage, as presently defined, is the last major barrier
that opposition groups are trying to destroy.
Scarier still, California courts are equating sexual orientation discrimination with race discrimination. Taking this approach, the courts treat sexual orientation discrimination as a "compelling government interest" (cgi). The CA gay community got very excited about earlier this year. There are statutes that infringe on Constitutional rights. Courts use them when they claim a cgi. That's a convenient way to shred the Consitution!
What do you believe will happen to churches that speak out against behavior deemed immoral? It is disturbing to see a "super-class" of citizens (and a minority at that) created based on behavior. When you do that, there are no longer any boundaries.
Make no mistake about it - those who are pushing gay-marriage are not at all about letting you live-and-let-live because they want very much to affect how you speak, teach, work and act -- your religious preferences have no respect and no bearing.
Scarier still, California courts are equating sexual orientation discrimination with race discrimination. Taking this approach, the courts treat sexual orientation discrimination as a "compelling government interest" (cgi). The CA gay community got very excited about earlier this year. There are statutes that infringe on Constitutional rights. Courts use them when they claim a cgi. That's a convenient way to shred the Consitution!
What do you believe will happen to churches that speak out against behavior deemed immoral? It is disturbing to see a "super-class" of citizens (and a minority at that) created based on behavior. When you do that, there are no longer any boundaries.
Make no mistake about it - those who are pushing gay-marriage are not at all about letting you live-and-let-live because they want very much to affect how you speak, teach, work and act -- your religious preferences have no respect and no bearing.
Schooner Sailer | 10:51 p.m. Oct. 9, 2008
CALIFORNIA - Land of Fruits and Nuts. That at won't change whether Prop. 8
is passed or not. Remember as California goes, so goes the O'Bama nation.
New Supreme court will enforce gay marriages nationwide. It's the beginning
of the end.
Sail on my children!!!
Sail on my children!!!
Comments continue below
Hurt Others? | 12:07 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Why would the LDS church wish to put into a State Constitution legal
discrimination?
In general, 'discrimination' is the discernment of qualities and recognition of the differences between things. The differences between persons based upon their gender preferences.
We would be creating constitutionally unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice.
I love my wife, my children and believe in the Proclaimation to the World. This is my belief, and I do know and understand that marriage is between a man and a woman.
This is my moral core, my value judgement, my testimony.
I also believe that the Father and the son visited a 14 year old boy and revealed the gospel.
Do we, as a society, have the right to discriminate against those who disagree with these things that I know?
I know the answer if Satan ran the world, but if we are to become like Christ, would we best be served to allow others their own free agency?
The question is not "How would Jesus vote in this election, but would he vote in this election"?
I do not think that the Christ that I have a personal relationship with would.
In general, 'discrimination' is the discernment of qualities and recognition of the differences between things. The differences between persons based upon their gender preferences.
We would be creating constitutionally unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice.
I love my wife, my children and believe in the Proclaimation to the World. This is my belief, and I do know and understand that marriage is between a man and a woman.
This is my moral core, my value judgement, my testimony.
I also believe that the Father and the son visited a 14 year old boy and revealed the gospel.
Do we, as a society, have the right to discriminate against those who disagree with these things that I know?
I know the answer if Satan ran the world, but if we are to become like Christ, would we best be served to allow others their own free agency?
The question is not "How would Jesus vote in this election, but would he vote in this election"?
I do not think that the Christ that I have a personal relationship with would.
CAKid | 12:24 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
People raise very good points about the flawed legal reasoning that lead to the
CA supreme court decision. Activist judges aside (many of whom are generally
conservitive), gay marriage is coming. More and more people support it. Young
people are much much much more sypmathetic to gay people, and in 20+ years,
I'm certain it will be common--just like the evolution of interacial
marriage 60+ years ago in the south. The CA court was hasty in its judgement
here--true. Personlly, things would work out legelly more cleanly if done by a
vote of majority--which may have taken another 10+ years. But I'm certain
it would have happened.
Given the inevitability of the change and the general growing sympathy to gay people, I suspect that explaining the church's position on this issue will some day become just as difficult as it is to now explain to young members and investigators the LDS church's changing positions on polygamy, blacks and the preisthood, and opposition to women's equality.
Think about it this way--which side of this issue will you want to be on 50 years from now?
Given the inevitability of the change and the general growing sympathy to gay people, I suspect that explaining the church's position on this issue will some day become just as difficult as it is to now explain to young members and investigators the LDS church's changing positions on polygamy, blacks and the preisthood, and opposition to women's equality.
Think about it this way--which side of this issue will you want to be on 50 years from now?
Re: CAKid | 2:53 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Hate to break it to you, but...:
"The poll conducted for CBS 5 by SurveyUSA indicates that support for the measure to ban gay marriage has grown among voters in the state over an eleven day period � most especially among young voters. According to the poll, likely California voters overall now favor passage of Proposition 8 by a five-point margin, 47 percent to 42 percent. The only demographic group to significantly change their views during this period were younger voters, who now support the measure after previously opposing it."
This was posted on cbs5.com on October 6th. Apparently, not all young people are "much much much more sypmathetic to gay people", as you claim.
"The poll conducted for CBS 5 by SurveyUSA indicates that support for the measure to ban gay marriage has grown among voters in the state over an eleven day period � most especially among young voters. According to the poll, likely California voters overall now favor passage of Proposition 8 by a five-point margin, 47 percent to 42 percent. The only demographic group to significantly change their views during this period were younger voters, who now support the measure after previously opposing it."
This was posted on cbs5.com on October 6th. Apparently, not all young people are "much much much more sypmathetic to gay people", as you claim.
GET A CLUE! | 12:06 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
As it mentions time and time and time and time and time again...The CA Family
Code 297.5 states that same-sex couples HAVE THE "same rights!" So -
if this is FACT, why are you changing something you already have a right to and
opening this can of worms??!!!! It's like already having your cake AND
eating it too - but you just wanted one more scoop of ice cream that you
didn't have, and you're taking it off of someone else's plate.
a) Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights,protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law, whether they derive from statutes, administrative regulations, court rules,
government policies, common law, or any other provisions or sources of law, as are granted to and imposed upon spouses.
search CA code 297.5 and EDUCATE YOURSELF!
a) Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights,protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law, whether they derive from statutes, administrative regulations, court rules,
government policies, common law, or any other provisions or sources of law, as are granted to and imposed upon spouses.
search CA code 297.5 and EDUCATE YOURSELF!
I am so Angry | 12:32 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
In 2000 proposition 22 (Marrige between a man and a woman)passsed with 61.4
Percent of the vote here in California. Then later 4 Federal Judges reveresed it
and made it legal, This is not right if the people voted for it and got 61.4
Percent then Why on earth could the Judges overrule us?
And as for comparing this between the interacial marriage civil rights problem is rediculious I would be highly insulted if I were them.
Propositin 8 is an issue on morality and nothing else. VOTE YES ON 8
And as for comparing this between the interacial marriage civil rights problem is rediculious I would be highly insulted if I were them.
Propositin 8 is an issue on morality and nothing else. VOTE YES ON 8
John | 2:32 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Two points: If you are voting for this because you don't want your kids
learning in school that homosexuality is a valid form of love for people who are
compelled to it, what exactly are you afraid of? If you raise your kids right,
and teach them to be accepting of other people and to think for themselves,
where is the fear? Obviously you don't trust your own parenting skills.
Or you really think being gay is a choice and if your kids hear all the options
they'll swing the other way? Honestly. Maybe YOU should be the one not
allowed to have kids with such backward thinking.
Second: It isn't right that the CA supreme court overruled the voice of the people. It will be interesting to see if the people say the same thing in 2008 that they said in 2000.
Second: It isn't right that the CA supreme court overruled the voice of the people. It will be interesting to see if the people say the same thing in 2008 that they said in 2000.
JD | 3:28 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
This is a difficult choice for me. I have a testimony of the gospel (LDS) and
believe that we have a living Prophet today. I have heard the various arguements
for and against. I believe the best possible environment for a child is having a
biological father and mother living in a healthy family. In our society this is
not always realistic. There are lots of "stories" being told about
churches losing their tax free status, children being taught things they're
not being taught now, etc. For the most part they simply are not true. We will
always have to deal with radical views from the left and the right. When this
ocurrs our friends and neighbors will have to rally around us to fight the
injustice. I need to teach my children and grandchildren tolerance and love for
their fellow human beings. I need to share with them my beliefs and then let
them use their free agency to decide. I can not take away anothers rights. I
love our Prophet and am saddened by the idea that I can not do what he asks. I
have a loving God and I will answer to him later.
Anonymous | 5:48 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Suppose there was a vote on the question of whether or not there is a God.
Suppose that the voters in California voted overwhelmingly that there is NO God.
Would that make it so there was no God? Wouldn't we expect some
"activist" prophets, seers, and revelators, as well as some popes,
pastors, and ministers, to "overrule" the vote of the people?
Now suppose the voters of California voted overwhelmingly that black people were inferior, dirty, backward, and cursed, and therefore black people were required to stay separated (segregated) from white people. Suppose that separate (but equal) facilities were built so that blacks could remain segregated from whites. Would a handful of judges who overruled such a vote be bad, "activist" judges? Or would they be doing their job in protecting the basic principles of our country--a nation conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal?
California Supreme Court Justices did a GREAT job overturning the unconstitutional law passed by Californians in 2000. If Prop8 passes, effectively tying the hands of those wise justices, then we will SURELY see this go to the US Supreme Court! The founding principles of America are at risk!
Now suppose the voters of California voted overwhelmingly that black people were inferior, dirty, backward, and cursed, and therefore black people were required to stay separated (segregated) from white people. Suppose that separate (but equal) facilities were built so that blacks could remain segregated from whites. Would a handful of judges who overruled such a vote be bad, "activist" judges? Or would they be doing their job in protecting the basic principles of our country--a nation conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal?
California Supreme Court Justices did a GREAT job overturning the unconstitutional law passed by Californians in 2000. If Prop8 passes, effectively tying the hands of those wise justices, then we will SURELY see this go to the US Supreme Court! The founding principles of America are at risk!
re: get a clue | 5:58 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
"So - if this is FACT, why are you changing something you already have a
right to and opening this can of worms??!!!!"
As you probably know, passing this amendment will change things. SSM is already legal in California. Passing the amendment will "change something".
As you probably know, passing this amendment will change things. SSM is already legal in California. Passing the amendment will "change something".
Archie Bunker III | 6:27 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
I guess I am a bit different than most LDS people claim to be.
They claim to LOVE gays and lesbians, but hate their sins, and so they enact laws and amendments to take away the civil liberties of those whom they love.
Pardon me for saying so, but homosexuality sickens me. I hate gays and lesbians, and I am not afraid to say that. Call me a homophobe if you want to. I'll be honest and own up to it.
But I will NEVER support a law that takes away the civil liberties of even someone I hate! I will NEVER allow anyone to infringe on my freedom to marry who I want to marry (or to divorce who I want to divorce, or even to adulterate with who I want!), and I certainly won't allow anyone else's freedom to be infringed even if they are gay!
So I guess I wonder what gays and lesbians think. Would you rather have the typical LDS "LOVE" and lose your rights, or would you rather have MY kind of "HATE" but the freedom to choose your partner and the liberty to marry them?
They claim to LOVE gays and lesbians, but hate their sins, and so they enact laws and amendments to take away the civil liberties of those whom they love.
Pardon me for saying so, but homosexuality sickens me. I hate gays and lesbians, and I am not afraid to say that. Call me a homophobe if you want to. I'll be honest and own up to it.
But I will NEVER support a law that takes away the civil liberties of even someone I hate! I will NEVER allow anyone to infringe on my freedom to marry who I want to marry (or to divorce who I want to divorce, or even to adulterate with who I want!), and I certainly won't allow anyone else's freedom to be infringed even if they are gay!
So I guess I wonder what gays and lesbians think. Would you rather have the typical LDS "LOVE" and lose your rights, or would you rather have MY kind of "HATE" but the freedom to choose your partner and the liberty to marry them?
Anonymous | 7:09 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Ok, so we let the Gays get married, what are they gonna do about rising gas
prices, or the crumbling economy. Oh wait a cotton pickin minute it woke make a
difference. SO... Why oh Why is this a waste of breath. It is the 21'st
century, history might repeat it's self but it's never the same the
"homosexual" action's that helped crumble the roman empire, is
gonna be the Greed, Foul Play, warmongering socialites that bring down this Red
White and Blue Nation.
The Beginning of the End? | 5:29 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008
Oh I feel so bad for you. Even though I've moved on from these beliefs I
can very much relate. Your whole religion is about marriage, family and being
with your family after you die. I know.
Fortunately, there are many in the world that don't believe this is true. Life is about Being, Loving and Learning.
The world is changing...but it's not going away quite yet. And you can relax (or perhaps be disappointed?)..no great God is coming down to put wrath on our world. How much sense does it make to you to believe this way? If it does then you have my sympathy and my love until you can see.
Bless You
Fortunately, there are many in the world that don't believe this is true. Life is about Being, Loving and Learning.
The world is changing...but it's not going away quite yet. And you can relax (or perhaps be disappointed?)..no great God is coming down to put wrath on our world. How much sense does it make to you to believe this way? If it does then you have my sympathy and my love until you can see.
Bless You
Open | 7:43 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008
I no longer think homosexuality is "wrong" and this realization is
dawning on more and more people every year as gay people share their experience
with tolerant family and friends, especially the younger generation - those with
the more open minds.
Re: Open | 3:04 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008
It has began! another victim! and guess who's laughing and rubbing his
hands together.
I dont think its the action of the people that are supporting this prob 8 is dangerous, but rather their thinking.
I dont think its the action of the people that are supporting this prob 8 is dangerous, but rather their thinking.
Re: Open | 9:12 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008
It has nothing to do with having an open mind. I love my homosexual friends, but
I don't support their actions, just as they don't support some of MY
actions. That has nothing to do with it.
What it does have to do with is this: there are numerous evidences that this will hurt society in the long run. It may not be evidently clear to everybody for several decades, but it WILL be harmful. You may not put much stock in that, but the indicators are clear. Freedom of religion will become a thing of the past, our children will be indoctrinated that this is a good and wholesome choice to make, and the family unit, the entire basis of our society, will be destroyed. Most importantly for me, though, this has to do with one simple fact: the First Presidency of my church, the prophets, have said that supporting this measure (in every state in which its on the ballot this year) is the right thing to do. Over the years, I have received many witnesses that following the prophet is the right thing to do, and so I will do it in this case, too.
What it does have to do with is this: there are numerous evidences that this will hurt society in the long run. It may not be evidently clear to everybody for several decades, but it WILL be harmful. You may not put much stock in that, but the indicators are clear. Freedom of religion will become a thing of the past, our children will be indoctrinated that this is a good and wholesome choice to make, and the family unit, the entire basis of our society, will be destroyed. Most importantly for me, though, this has to do with one simple fact: the First Presidency of my church, the prophets, have said that supporting this measure (in every state in which its on the ballot this year) is the right thing to do. Over the years, I have received many witnesses that following the prophet is the right thing to do, and so I will do it in this case, too.
OC | 12:19 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008
Some of you are so sensitive. Just saying that same sex marriage is wrong is a
hate crime in your book. Not agreeing and trying to correct your illogical
thinking on prop 8 is love, not hate. That you misunderstand the yes on prop 8
crowd shows that you do not understand the issue. People vote their belief and
the only side that is trying to force anything is the anti 8 side. Hence, 4
judges over ruling the will of the people. Everybody all ready has the right to
love anybody they want to or marry anybody of the opposite sex. Same sex
marriage is not a right. Go back and read John Locke or our founding
fathers' words. Vote for prop 8 and stop attacking the LDS church.
RE: Moessers | 4:19 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008
Again, totally missing the point. You quote below:
"Did anybody during this broadcast quote this from the LDS scriptures by the way?
Doc & Cov 134: 9: We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied."
You are right. The government should definitely stay out of religion. Because the government has no right to "foster and proscribe" one religion over anohter or force it on the members.
Our founders have ALWAYS used religion to influce government. Any reader of early founders writings can clearly see that "In God We Trust" is a founding princible. Not Government forcing the belief on its citizens, but Religious influence has always been on the government. Especially when it comes to moral issues.
Your quote in this context has nothing to bear on the church's right to actively oppose or promote anything in politics that affects those moral principles.
"Did anybody during this broadcast quote this from the LDS scriptures by the way?
Doc & Cov 134: 9: We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied."
You are right. The government should definitely stay out of religion. Because the government has no right to "foster and proscribe" one religion over anohter or force it on the members.
Our founders have ALWAYS used religion to influce government. Any reader of early founders writings can clearly see that "In God We Trust" is a founding princible. Not Government forcing the belief on its citizens, but Religious influence has always been on the government. Especially when it comes to moral issues.
Your quote in this context has nothing to bear on the church's right to actively oppose or promote anything in politics that affects those moral principles.
Right On | 8:55 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008
The LDS Church has every "right" to be bigoted, fascist, and wrong.
But they do NOT have the right to deny other American citizens of their inherent
and unalienable rights, equality in the the law, and liberty to pursue
happiness.
Get over it, you religious freaks, and leave others alone!
Get over it, you religious freaks, and leave others alone!
John Pack Lambert | 10:02 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008
The reason the failure of proposition eight will force a curriculum is because
if it fails there will be mandated teaching of the equality of all forms of
marriage by age appropriate methods at every grade level.
Its failure will open the door to the reading of "Heather has two mommies" in every kindergarten classroom in California, and there will be nothing parents can do about it. If Proposition 8 passes, the advocates of homosexual behavior will not have the stick of public policy on their side.
There are a complexed set of issues, and Proposition 8 will not be the only factor, but without it there will be no chance of preserving the innocence of children in the Public Schools.
Its failure will open the door to the reading of "Heather has two mommies" in every kindergarten classroom in California, and there will be nothing parents can do about it. If Proposition 8 passes, the advocates of homosexual behavior will not have the stick of public policy on their side.
There are a complexed set of issues, and Proposition 8 will not be the only factor, but without it there will be no chance of preserving the innocence of children in the Public Schools.
John Pack Lambert | 10:10 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008
To the angry person,
We need indignation, not anger. Your energy is well placed, and I applaud all efforts to pass Proposition 8. However we need to get our facts straight in the battle, otherwise our opponants will be able to discredit us in presentations to the undecided.
It was state, not federal, judges who overturned Proposition 22. This does not make it any more valid an action. If the proponants of same-gender marriage had wanted to do this in the right way they would have brought a ballot proposal before the poeple of California to repeal Prop 22.
If as they calim the population of California overwhelmingly suppports same-gender marriage than this would have easily passed, and so such action to change the law would have been the wisest course.
This tells me that they know that those who be with us are more than those who be with them. The fact that one of their main arguments is we should not alter what has happened shows that they know that most people oppose same-gender marriage and know that homosexual activity is an abomination in the sight of the Lord.
It was state judges, but they were wrong.
We need indignation, not anger. Your energy is well placed, and I applaud all efforts to pass Proposition 8. However we need to get our facts straight in the battle, otherwise our opponants will be able to discredit us in presentations to the undecided.
It was state, not federal, judges who overturned Proposition 22. This does not make it any more valid an action. If the proponants of same-gender marriage had wanted to do this in the right way they would have brought a ballot proposal before the poeple of California to repeal Prop 22.
If as they calim the population of California overwhelmingly suppports same-gender marriage than this would have easily passed, and so such action to change the law would have been the wisest course.
This tells me that they know that those who be with us are more than those who be with them. The fact that one of their main arguments is we should not alter what has happened shows that they know that most people oppose same-gender marriage and know that homosexual activity is an abomination in the sight of the Lord.
It was state judges, but they were wrong.
So glad only 3 more weeks | 10:40 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008
I am so looking forward to November 5 when the exaggerations and misstatements
on BOTH sides will be, if not over, diminishing. I imagine then, however, we
will be reading of the gloating of one side and the injustice suffered by the
other.
sharyle | 11:29 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008
I have read several of you out there, that thinks that the LDS church allows you
to marry more than 1 wife. Guess you have not heard, that went out when the LAW
had said it was against the law. the church obeys the law.And for all you who
are members of the LDS church. When the Lord ask you, did you follow the
prophet's voice I hope we who are members of the church can stop and
listen. So many things have been writen against the church who stands by what
they believe in and the teachings. Maybe we all can and should get on our knees
and ask the Lord what to do.
I have my sign on my front lawn vote yes on 8
I have my sign on my front lawn vote yes on 8
Alma | 2:37 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
Sharyle,
I did ask the Lord what I should do. He revealed to my by his spirit that I should respect other people's different beliefs. He said I should NOT try to force others to live by my beliefs by trying to pass an amendment forbidding them from marrying one another just because they are gay. He said that each person will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adams' or Steve's transgressions, so leave Adam and Steve alone. He said Governments are instituted by Him for the benefit of mankind, and that no government can exist in peace unless they constitute themselves and frame laws that secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life. He said that means gay people have their own conscience that they must be allowed to freely exercise without penalty from me. I wanted to stretch forth mine hand in the power of God and command that homosexuality cease, but the spirit constraineth me, for the Lord suffereth that gays may do this thing according to the hardness of their hearts, that His judgments may be just. Vote NO on 8.
I did ask the Lord what I should do. He revealed to my by his spirit that I should respect other people's different beliefs. He said I should NOT try to force others to live by my beliefs by trying to pass an amendment forbidding them from marrying one another just because they are gay. He said that each person will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adams' or Steve's transgressions, so leave Adam and Steve alone. He said Governments are instituted by Him for the benefit of mankind, and that no government can exist in peace unless they constitute themselves and frame laws that secure to each individual the free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the protection of life. He said that means gay people have their own conscience that they must be allowed to freely exercise without penalty from me. I wanted to stretch forth mine hand in the power of God and command that homosexuality cease, but the spirit constraineth me, for the Lord suffereth that gays may do this thing according to the hardness of their hearts, that His judgments may be just. Vote NO on 8.
Ashamed of Utah | 5:11 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
Proposition 8 is simply hate and bigotry disguised as legislation.
Members of the mormon church should be ashamed of themselves for meddling in the political affairs of another state and trying to assert their religious influence in California.
Members of the mormon church should be ashamed of themselves for meddling in the political affairs of another state and trying to assert their religious influence in California.
Que pasa, amigos? | 5:47 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
No survey of California voters on this issue is accurate unless it asks "Ud
esta de acuerdo de que los homosexuales tengan el derecho de casarse?"
Sorry, too lazy for diacritical marks.
A lot of the Cradle Catholic Paisanos are going to vote Yes.
Sorry, too lazy for diacritical marks.
A lot of the Cradle Catholic Paisanos are going to vote Yes.
RE: Ashamed of Utah | 6:04 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
So sad to hear you are ashamed.
I am ashamed of Courts that go against the constitution and the will of the people.
I am ashamed of short sighted citizens that push their agenda in spite of the overwhelming will of the people.
I am ashamed of States that have pushed through Gay Marriage despite the will of their citizens.
That is NOT how it is supposed to be done here in America. The people decide what is right... Murder, Abortion, Child Abuse, Gay Marriage... all are moral issues.
Society has to make moral judgments. We are based on moral judgments. The fact that you don't like this is not the point.
You can go to the voting booth and make your opinion known. When you don't get your way, it is NOT appropriate for activist judges to legislate from the bench.
We have a rule of law and a constitution. If you don't like it, get enough people to agree with you and change the law.
For example, I am totally opposed to abortion and every election I vote for those that are closest to my views. I suggest you do the same.
Good luck.
I am ashamed of Courts that go against the constitution and the will of the people.
I am ashamed of short sighted citizens that push their agenda in spite of the overwhelming will of the people.
I am ashamed of States that have pushed through Gay Marriage despite the will of their citizens.
That is NOT how it is supposed to be done here in America. The people decide what is right... Murder, Abortion, Child Abuse, Gay Marriage... all are moral issues.
Society has to make moral judgments. We are based on moral judgments. The fact that you don't like this is not the point.
You can go to the voting booth and make your opinion known. When you don't get your way, it is NOT appropriate for activist judges to legislate from the bench.
We have a rule of law and a constitution. If you don't like it, get enough people to agree with you and change the law.
For example, I am totally opposed to abortion and every election I vote for those that are closest to my views. I suggest you do the same.
Good luck.
OC | 6:57 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
To ashamed:
Many of us who read and post on this live in California like me. I can certainly understand you being ashamed ..... of yourself for so totally misunderstanding the yes on prop 8 side and mischaracterizing the LDS church. We don't hate you, just the sins you are commiting. Democracy allows us to vote our beliefs. Vote yes on prop 8.
To alma (wow, that's one misnamed person):
That spirit that answered your prayer was Satan. We do respect others and their beliefs, but we can certainly disagree with them and work to defeat illogical and immoral things like same sex marriage.
to right on (better name would be wrong on):
Same sex marriage was never a right intended by John Locke or our founding fathers. They never thought some in society would become so bizare as to actually promote homosexuality as being a good thing when they knew how wrong and perverse homosexuality is.
On D&C 134:9:
No religious group is being promoted at the expense of another by voting yes on prop 8. Same sex marriage is not a right, nor should it be except in the mind of some confused state supreme court judges.
Many of us who read and post on this live in California like me. I can certainly understand you being ashamed ..... of yourself for so totally misunderstanding the yes on prop 8 side and mischaracterizing the LDS church. We don't hate you, just the sins you are commiting. Democracy allows us to vote our beliefs. Vote yes on prop 8.
To alma (wow, that's one misnamed person):
That spirit that answered your prayer was Satan. We do respect others and their beliefs, but we can certainly disagree with them and work to defeat illogical and immoral things like same sex marriage.
to right on (better name would be wrong on):
Same sex marriage was never a right intended by John Locke or our founding fathers. They never thought some in society would become so bizare as to actually promote homosexuality as being a good thing when they knew how wrong and perverse homosexuality is.
On D&C 134:9:
No religious group is being promoted at the expense of another by voting yes on prop 8. Same sex marriage is not a right, nor should it be except in the mind of some confused state supreme court judges.
John Pack Lambert | 9:09 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
To ashamed of Utah,
There are over 700,000 Church members in California, well over that number, I just threw it out because it is the highest number I am sure church members numbers are over.
I have an uncle in California and a grandmother there. They are both supporters of Proposition 8, and in the case of my uncle he is a native born Californian.
Elders Cook and Clayton who spoke at the fireside broadcast last week both lived in California for over 30 years.
On a related subject, there are more Latter-day Saints serving in the United States House of Representatives from California than from Utah, so stop acting like all members of the church live in Utah, because that is not in any way, shape, means or form true.
There are over 700,000 Church members in California, well over that number, I just threw it out because it is the highest number I am sure church members numbers are over.
I have an uncle in California and a grandmother there. They are both supporters of Proposition 8, and in the case of my uncle he is a native born Californian.
Elders Cook and Clayton who spoke at the fireside broadcast last week both lived in California for over 30 years.
On a related subject, there are more Latter-day Saints serving in the United States House of Representatives from California than from Utah, so stop acting like all members of the church live in Utah, because that is not in any way, shape, means or form true.
Hmmm.... | 9:48 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
Everyone should be able to afford a home. We can't keep discriminating
against poor people, they should have a right to own a home just like every
other American. Changing the lending standards to give everyone the chance to
purchase a home will not affect me, why should I care? Stop discriminating
against people in poor circumstances.
Well it took ~10 years after lending standards were loosened to recognize the major economic impact of the decision. How many years will it take to see the societal detriment if marriage is redefined to include same-sex relationships? Don't be foolish, tradtional marriage will be impacted if marriage is redefined. I do not want my young children to be raised in a society that puts same gender relationships on the same level as tradtional marriage. I don't want others to be prosecuted when they quote biblical teachings. Both presidential candidates have stated that the definition of marriage should remain as is. The vast majority of Americans agree. There is nothing hateful in leaving the term as is.
Well it took ~10 years after lending standards were loosened to recognize the major economic impact of the decision. How many years will it take to see the societal detriment if marriage is redefined to include same-sex relationships? Don't be foolish, tradtional marriage will be impacted if marriage is redefined. I do not want my young children to be raised in a society that puts same gender relationships on the same level as tradtional marriage. I don't want others to be prosecuted when they quote biblical teachings. Both presidential candidates have stated that the definition of marriage should remain as is. The vast majority of Americans agree. There is nothing hateful in leaving the term as is.
To "just the facts" | 9:58 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
Are you claiming to have more insight than the prophet of your religion?
Re: ashamed of utah | 10:10 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008
Not only does California have hundreds of thousands of LDS members, but there
are also LDS members in the surrounding states that are registered to vote in
California, including some who are staying in Utah. Since these people can vote
by absentee ballot, and since the outcome of the vote in California directly
affects us, this is news in Utah. Nobody from the state of Utah is calling
California residents about Prop 8, nobody from Utah is flying to California to
go door to door and talk to people about it, those are California residents
doing that - and a great number of them are NOT members of the LDS church. The
church is one of over 100 different churches and organizations who banded
together to fight this measure.
Dale | 12:29 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008
I am deeply saddened by the LDS stance on Prop 8. I wish there were more
articles describing the untold pain and harm caused by the Church by forcing
families to choose between their gay children and their religion. Proposition 8
would harm thousands of children with a gay parent who can't utilize a
spouse's health insurance or receive the protections from marraige. My
family in Salt Lake City has literally been torn apart by trying to choose
between the Church and one of their gay children and brothers. Proposition 8
hurts families and LDS support forces families to choose.
(( FINAL SAY )) | 12:34 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008
If you are still unsure where you stand - maybe this will clarify your
position:
"We are people of peace. We are followers of the Christ who was and is the Prince of Peace. But there are times when we must stand up for right and
decency for freedom and civilization just as Moroni rallied his people in his day to the defense of their wives, their children, and the cause of
liberty (see Alma 48:10)." Gordon B. Hinckley Liahona Jan 2002 83-86
"We are people of peace. We are followers of the Christ who was and is the Prince of Peace. But there are times when we must stand up for right and
decency for freedom and civilization just as Moroni rallied his people in his day to the defense of their wives, their children, and the cause of
liberty (see Alma 48:10)." Gordon B. Hinckley Liahona Jan 2002 83-86
Nanette | 7:23 p.m. Oct. 14, 2008
I've never been more offended and angry in my entire life as when I was
invited by my bishop to participate in this. Who are we to define civil
union/marriage!?! Don't we have temples? Aren't temple marriages
what are really important to us? Not the "til death do us part"
kind...
By taking away the freedoms of others we are limiting their agency and basically following satan's lead. SHEESH.
By taking away the freedoms of others we are limiting their agency and basically following satan's lead. SHEESH.
RE: Nanette | 12:41 a.m. Oct. 15, 2008
Nanette ~
In case you missed it, NO RIGHTS are being taken away. Prop 8 simply is protecting marriage between a man and a woman. Period. Simple. It's not rocket science.
Per CA Code 297.5 it reads:
a) Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights,protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law, whether they
derive from statutes, administrative regulations, court rules, government policies, common law, or any other provisions or sources of law, as are granted to and imposed upon spouses.
It's really important to educate yourself on this monumental matter. There are no freedoms being taken away. They already have their freedoms.
Vote YES on Prop 8 and worry about protecting marriage between a man and a woman (as was created to be since the beginning of time), instead of worrying about "taking away the freedoms of others" when it isn't.
It's about restoring/protecting/ traditional marriage. Period.
p.s...your bishop is right. Respect and support him just like you did when you sustained him.
In case you missed it, NO RIGHTS are being taken away. Prop 8 simply is protecting marriage between a man and a woman. Period. Simple. It's not rocket science.
Per CA Code 297.5 it reads:
a) Registered domestic partners shall have the same rights,protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law, whether they
derive from statutes, administrative regulations, court rules, government policies, common law, or any other provisions or sources of law, as are granted to and imposed upon spouses.
It's really important to educate yourself on this monumental matter. There are no freedoms being taken away. They already have their freedoms.
Vote YES on Prop 8 and worry about protecting marriage between a man and a woman (as was created to be since the beginning of time), instead of worrying about "taking away the freedoms of others" when it isn't.
It's about restoring/protecting/ traditional marriage. Period.
p.s...your bishop is right. Respect and support him just like you did when you sustained him.
Marriage is a Holy Covenant of G | 10:38 p.m. Oct. 15, 2008
Proposition 8 is more about same sex marriage its about protecting our sons and
daughters from growing up in a world that teaches that being gay or lesbian is
just as normal as being strait. I don't want my sons and daughters being
taught as young as five years old in school that it is okay to marry someone of
their same sex. It is about the principle of religion. And protecting what God
has set up as the correct way to replenish the earth. It is between marriage
between a Man and a Woman. God set Adam and Eve on earth to have their
posterity fill the whole earth. It goes contrary to the laws set up by God
himself. I have nothing against gay or lesbian individuals. I believe they can
live their life how they please. I am against the teachings that go against the
teachings of God. And we must fight to protect God's holy ordinance of
Marriage between one man and one woman.
EVERYONE HAPPY | 9:04 a.m. Oct. 16, 2008
Prop 8 = Supports traditional marriage between a man and a woman as it has been
since the very beginning of creation.
CA Family Code = Gives same-sex couples rights, protection etc....(search CA Family Code 297.5 online to see for yourself).
Everyone is happy. Simple. Period.
CA Family Code = Gives same-sex couples rights, protection etc....(search CA Family Code 297.5 online to see for yourself).
Everyone is happy. Simple. Period.
Concerned | 5:59 p.m. Oct. 24, 2008
What makes me sad about Proposition 8 is the anger and fear that it incites.
I have neighbors whose Yes on 8 lawn signs are stolen and some who are too afraid to put it back, for fear of some retaliation against their property or themselves. My mother's yes on 8 lawn sign was torn in half and left on her lawn. She lives by herself and decided not to get a new one, she's too afraid. My sister was a part of a peaceful demonstration for Prop 8 and were called vicious names and the anger that was directed to them were astonishing. Or if you have a Yes on 8 bumper sticker, there is always someone ready to hurl insults.
I don't know what the opposition of 8 has gone through. But, I have read blogs where bloggers who were against prop 8 were unjustly called negative names. That is just wrong.
Anger, violence,(stealing lawn signs), name calling gets nowhere. It serves no purpose.
As Rodney King used to say, "Can we all just get along?"
I have neighbors whose Yes on 8 lawn signs are stolen and some who are too afraid to put it back, for fear of some retaliation against their property or themselves. My mother's yes on 8 lawn sign was torn in half and left on her lawn. She lives by herself and decided not to get a new one, she's too afraid. My sister was a part of a peaceful demonstration for Prop 8 and were called vicious names and the anger that was directed to them were astonishing. Or if you have a Yes on 8 bumper sticker, there is always someone ready to hurl insults.
I don't know what the opposition of 8 has gone through. But, I have read blogs where bloggers who were against prop 8 were unjustly called negative names. That is just wrong.
Anger, violence,(stealing lawn signs), name calling gets nowhere. It serves no purpose.
As Rodney King used to say, "Can we all just get along?"
Resident in CA | 12:47 p.m. Oct. 25, 2008
To JD, Archie Bunker III, Alma,
Read the Family Proclamation or re read it again. Especially the last paragraph and then you would understand why the LDS church has urged CA members to support Proposition 8.
The Lord would never let our Prophet lead us astray. Don't you remember the scriptures in D&C (i can't recall which verse)that our Prophet is the Lord's mouthpiece, if he ever did anything that would lead the church astray, the prophet would no longer be prophet. The prophet is leader, revelator, and seer.
You just have to have faith.
Archie Bunker III - that is so sad that you say that you hate lesbians and gays. The gospel does not teach hatred. The Lord loves everyone. He hates the sin, but he LOVES the SINNERS. Search your scriptures.
Read the Family Proclamation or re read it again. Especially the last paragraph and then you would understand why the LDS church has urged CA members to support Proposition 8.
The Lord would never let our Prophet lead us astray. Don't you remember the scriptures in D&C (i can't recall which verse)that our Prophet is the Lord's mouthpiece, if he ever did anything that would lead the church astray, the prophet would no longer be prophet. The prophet is leader, revelator, and seer.
You just have to have faith.
Archie Bunker III - that is so sad that you say that you hate lesbians and gays. The gospel does not teach hatred. The Lord loves everyone. He hates the sin, but he LOVES the SINNERS. Search your scriptures.
LDS member is CA | 1:43 p.m. Oct. 25, 2008
My comments are aimed to those members of the LDS faith who oppose Prop 8 or who
are dissaponted that the church has urged its members in California to support
Prop 8.
I agree with Resident in CA and here is the last paragraph of the Family Proclamation:
"We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.
We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society." (End)
Proposition 8 is a measure "designed to maintain and strengthen family (father, mother) as the fundamental unit of society."
Archie Bunker II - you certainly aren't like most LDS, not because you oppose Prop 8, but because you feel no shame in saying that you hate gays and lesbians. Hatred and contention is not gospel doctrine.
I agree with Resident in CA and here is the last paragraph of the Family Proclamation:
"We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God. Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.
We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of society." (End)
Proposition 8 is a measure "designed to maintain and strengthen family (father, mother) as the fundamental unit of society."
Archie Bunker II - you certainly aren't like most LDS, not because you oppose Prop 8, but because you feel no shame in saying that you hate gays and lesbians. Hatred and contention is not gospel doctrine.
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"Marriage is not just a word.
The action and curriculum of schools are determined by what is and what is not marriage."
I have taught 20 years in both CA and Utah and sat on several curriculum adoptions.
Please explain how the meaning of the "word" marriage determines curriculum adoption.
Does not a Constitutional Ammendment to define "ONE WORD" create more attention to the issue, and create greater need for curriculum to explain the petty lunacy of people not to allow a "word" to evolve into what the word is in reality anyway?
What do you think High School teachers in California are talking about with their students this election cycle?
Proposition 8.
You guys brought it up.
You guys are the ones fascinated with the word.
You guys are the ones "married" to the semantics of the word.
Deal with your consequences if you don't get your ammendment, or if it goes to the Supreme Court and they throw it out, and it no longer becomes a State issue.