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LDS Church urges pro-Proposition 8 calls
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Alan | 5:07 p.m. Oct. 16, 2008
It is apparent, as with most every other strongly-held belief in life; neither
side experiences much success in swaying the other to his/her viewpoint.
However, I believe what our ordained leaders have warned us against, and I
willingly follow their counsel to both warn and engage in this issue.
The Proclamation states quite succinctly the outcome to families, communities and nations when behavior that undermines the family is undertaken. The Book of Mormon is also quite specific regarding when the "voice of the people" chooses that which is against God's will. Results to a society as a whole, when ignoring prophetic counsel, is described, as well as dissension from this counsel among members.
Everyone has a right to opinion. However, the Lord's appointed Prophet and Apostles have given counsel on this matter. I didn't realize I could pick and choose which counsel to follow and still define myself as faithful. There is a whole list of inconvenient standards I could ignore!
"How Same-Sex Marriage Affects All of Us" on Meridian Magazine is worth a look.
The Proclamation states quite succinctly the outcome to families, communities and nations when behavior that undermines the family is undertaken. The Book of Mormon is also quite specific regarding when the "voice of the people" chooses that which is against God's will. Results to a society as a whole, when ignoring prophetic counsel, is described, as well as dissension from this counsel among members.
Everyone has a right to opinion. However, the Lord's appointed Prophet and Apostles have given counsel on this matter. I didn't realize I could pick and choose which counsel to follow and still define myself as faithful. There is a whole list of inconvenient standards I could ignore!
"How Same-Sex Marriage Affects All of Us" on Meridian Magazine is worth a look.
You are all missing the point | 2:08 a.m. Oct. 17, 2008
The upsetting part of all of this not the LDS church's stance on gay
marriage. Of course they are against gay marriage, it's in their
scriptures and doctrine. And there is nothing wrong with the Church taking a
stand, they should, if they don't it's the same as condoning same sex
marriage and they cannot do that. The bigger issue here is that they are taking
a political stance, telling church members to get involved in protesting prop 8.
That is crossing the line. Release a statement about your beliefs, but
don't get involved in politics.
Comments continue below
LDS4Gaymarriage | 11:26 a.m. Oct. 17, 2008
Alan, The Church was in the right to issue the Proc., but doctrinally in the
WRONG. Please consider this 2-3 post explanation, which comes from our
ORG's website, on why supporting Prop. 8 is contrary to the Gospel -
A Brief Summary As To Why Promoting
California's Proposition 8 Is Contrary To Scripture
We feel that promoting Proposition 8 violates the scriptures. For those in favor of Proposition 8 please tell us why, how and where we are wrong in our step by step analysis. We always welcome your thoughts and constructive criticism.
1. LDS scripture (D&C 134:4) says we can't use our religious opinions to justify infringing upon the rights and liberties of others. (1 Cor. 10:29 does as well).
2. Gays in California currently have the right and/or liberty to marry.
3. By supporting Proposition 8, we are attempting to infringe upon this right/liberty, in contradiction to scripture, because our religious opinions regarding marriage and homosexuality prompted us to instinctively do so, just like Uzzah who instinctively tried to steady the ark contrary to extant scripture.
A Brief Summary As To Why Promoting
California's Proposition 8 Is Contrary To Scripture
We feel that promoting Proposition 8 violates the scriptures. For those in favor of Proposition 8 please tell us why, how and where we are wrong in our step by step analysis. We always welcome your thoughts and constructive criticism.
1. LDS scripture (D&C 134:4) says we can't use our religious opinions to justify infringing upon the rights and liberties of others. (1 Cor. 10:29 does as well).
2. Gays in California currently have the right and/or liberty to marry.
3. By supporting Proposition 8, we are attempting to infringe upon this right/liberty, in contradiction to scripture, because our religious opinions regarding marriage and homosexuality prompted us to instinctively do so, just like Uzzah who instinctively tried to steady the ark contrary to extant scripture.
LDS4gaymarriage | 11:36 a.m. Oct. 17, 2008
T0: You are all missing the point -
AMEN AMEN AMEN
The Proclamation On The Family was issued years ago in response to SSM initiatives in Alaska and Hawaii.
That's a great summary of LDS beliefs.
Our scripture says that we must use kindness gentlenees meekness and love unfeigned to persuade people to live according to the Gospel. That scripture passage also condemns "unrighteous dominion" (using force to obtain your desired results). Not only are we violating this, but as shown in my 2 prior posts, we are violating other verses. We are DOCTRINALLY in the wrong here.
AMEN AMEN AMEN
The Proclamation On The Family was issued years ago in response to SSM initiatives in Alaska and Hawaii.
That's a great summary of LDS beliefs.
Our scripture says that we must use kindness gentlenees meekness and love unfeigned to persuade people to live according to the Gospel. That scripture passage also condemns "unrighteous dominion" (using force to obtain your desired results). Not only are we violating this, but as shown in my 2 prior posts, we are violating other verses. We are DOCTRINALLY in the wrong here.
spencer | 12:30 a.m. Oct. 18, 2008
You want cold hard fact. You say prop 8 will not have an effect on teaching same
sex marriage in school. I disagree completely with you on this issues. I would
like you to look up the story of the Massachusetts father who was arrested
because he would not leave his daughters school until he was informed when their
school would be teaching about same sex marriage so he could remove his daughter
when they taught this. The school said they did NOT have to inform him of when
this would be taught because it was not topic that needed parental release. That
is taking away the right of the parent to teach his child what he believes is
right and granting that right to the government. You say this
isn�t in proposition 8 but where does it stop. It
wasn�t in Massachusetts law when passed but was ruled by
the Massachusetts state that parents had no say. The Massachusetts Supreme Court
would not hear the case, so therefore it stands as law. I will not stand by a
Proposition that points in this directions.
Nathan | 7:42 p.m. Oct. 18, 2008
Any member of the church who does not support proposition 8 is a fool, and
should be exed from the church
LDS4gaymarriage | 3:57 p.m. Oct. 19, 2008
Spencer - You want cold hard fact. You say prop 8 will not have an effect on
teaching same sex marriage in school. I disagree completely with you on this
issues. I would like you to look up the story of the Massachusetts father who
was arrested because he would not leave his daughters school until he was
informed when their school would be teaching about same sex marriage so he could
remove his daughter when they taught this.
LDS - The guy has admitted that he tried to get arrested. He had friends outside the school taking pictures of his arrest. Digital cameras...non just camera phones. They show him being taken inside to the jail, etc.. You need to quit reading your own propoganda.
LDS - The guy has admitted that he tried to get arrested. He had friends outside the school taking pictures of his arrest. Digital cameras...non just camera phones. They show him being taken inside to the jail, etc.. You need to quit reading your own propoganda.
LDS4gaymarriage | 4:11 p.m. Oct. 19, 2008
Nathan - Any member of the church who does not support proposition 8 is a fool,
and should be exed from the church.
LDS � President Hugh B. Brown disagrees -
"Even in our own church men and women take issue with one another and contend for their own interpretations. This free exchange of ideas is not to be deplored as long as men and women remain humble and teachable. Neither fear of consequence or any kind of coercion should ever be used to secure uniformity of thought in the church. People should express their problems and opinions and be unafraid to think without fear of ill consequences." (at p.138)
"I admire men and women who have developed the questing spirit, who are unafraid of new ideas as stepping stones to progress. We should, of course, respect the opinions of others, but we should also be unafraid to dissent - if we are informed. Thoughts and expressions compete in the marketplace of thought, and in that competition truth emerges triumphant. Only error fears freedom of expression." (at p.137)
LDS � President Hugh B. Brown disagrees -
"Even in our own church men and women take issue with one another and contend for their own interpretations. This free exchange of ideas is not to be deplored as long as men and women remain humble and teachable. Neither fear of consequence or any kind of coercion should ever be used to secure uniformity of thought in the church. People should express their problems and opinions and be unafraid to think without fear of ill consequences." (at p.138)
"I admire men and women who have developed the questing spirit, who are unafraid of new ideas as stepping stones to progress. We should, of course, respect the opinions of others, but we should also be unafraid to dissent - if we are informed. Thoughts and expressions compete in the marketplace of thought, and in that competition truth emerges triumphant. Only error fears freedom of expression." (at p.137)
Amy | 9:07 p.m. Oct. 20, 2008
Why is it that church members are so afraid of standing up against social norms
and society and say, "Hey, I am not okay with this!" Why can't
the church urge its members to stand up for their beliefs! We as members cannot
be so foolish as to no think that we do not have to start fighting for what we
believe! We are not fighting physical wars but wars on pricipalities and
dominions. This is an evil that can and will surely bring about destruction.
Follow the Prophet, don't go astray.
sarah tippets | 1:41 p.m. Oct. 21, 2008
i'm Lds and 17 you guys dont understand that this law will protect families
and save marriage. this law is going to effect my generation and more to follow!
yes on prop 8 doesnt take away from gay rights, they can have the same benfits
as a married couple.Schools have no business teaching children that same sex
marriage is right,schools shouldnt be allowed the option.there job is to teach
book work, not morals or beliefs,thats the parents job. YES ON 8 SAVE
GENERATIONS!!! and the future! it's not right letting them be married in
churchs espeically were thats not accepted!! dont get me wrong there more than
welcome to attend but not to marry!! dont forget marriage was influenced by
religion! Prop 8 will protect religious freedom. I know in Genesis adam was a
man and eve was a women. they replenished the earth, how can you do that with
two men!!! YES ON 8
Granddad | 1:22 p.m. Oct. 22, 2008
The LDS Church is facing a "Galileo" moment. The truth about what
homosexuality is, and just as important, what it isn't, has been raining
down on the children of men for the last 40 years. I've got news for you:
the prophets do not have a monopoly on revelation. Learn your own doctrine.
For 40 years gay people, families of gays, mental health professionals, and researchers have been pleading with the Church leadership to just look through the telescope and see for themselves that the sexual universe is not flat! But, no. As it was in Galileo's day, orthodoxy is more important that truth.
What we get from our leaders (I'm LDS btw) is more of the same - a flat map - an East/West, North/South (male/female) plan of salvation. And for most it works pretty well! Unless of course you're on the North pole and every direction points South. Maybe we should adjust the map.
But no. We just get denial after denial that any such curve to our world exists. And belief that it does is grounds for church discipline. There is no room for what we clearly see in the telescope. It's the flat map or nothing!
For 40 years gay people, families of gays, mental health professionals, and researchers have been pleading with the Church leadership to just look through the telescope and see for themselves that the sexual universe is not flat! But, no. As it was in Galileo's day, orthodoxy is more important that truth.
What we get from our leaders (I'm LDS btw) is more of the same - a flat map - an East/West, North/South (male/female) plan of salvation. And for most it works pretty well! Unless of course you're on the North pole and every direction points South. Maybe we should adjust the map.
But no. We just get denial after denial that any such curve to our world exists. And belief that it does is grounds for church discipline. There is no room for what we clearly see in the telescope. It's the flat map or nothing!
California | 2:04 p.m. Oct. 22, 2008
I had a wonderful LDS neighbor who was married to a Dr. and had 3 kids. One day
we woke to learn that he announced he was gay, couldn't live a lie and all
the termoile that happens within a family happened. I felt most sorry for the
kids.
I am now going through something similar. The so-called 'therapy' the LDS church offered stopped being effective when my kids became teens and at 50 I need to be learning how to support myself and help kids in college. I feel like I am being shunned at church as well, as if his reverting back was my fault.
Gay 'therapy' without informing a spouse until years later should be grounds for annullment, but in the LDS church marriage is forever, so in a patriarchal church, where does that put me?
Please ponder that gayness has many different reasons and sometimes 'curing' it is like trying to cure someone of blue eyes.
If someone wants a life term committed relationship with a same sex partner, let them. It is much better than being deceived in a heterosexual false marriage as the answer and solution to someone who is gay.
I am now going through something similar. The so-called 'therapy' the LDS church offered stopped being effective when my kids became teens and at 50 I need to be learning how to support myself and help kids in college. I feel like I am being shunned at church as well, as if his reverting back was my fault.
Gay 'therapy' without informing a spouse until years later should be grounds for annullment, but in the LDS church marriage is forever, so in a patriarchal church, where does that put me?
Please ponder that gayness has many different reasons and sometimes 'curing' it is like trying to cure someone of blue eyes.
If someone wants a life term committed relationship with a same sex partner, let them. It is much better than being deceived in a heterosexual false marriage as the answer and solution to someone who is gay.
Alan | 4:01 p.m. Oct. 22, 2008
To LDS4gay marriage: Joseph Smith said: "When a man find(s) fault with the
Church, saying that they (the Brethren) are out of the way, while he himself is
righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy
..."
I accuse no one. However, it is a very simple matter; we either support our Prophet and Apostles, or we don't. We sustain them as prophets, seers and revelators, or we don't. I do.
I accuse no one. However, it is a very simple matter; we either support our Prophet and Apostles, or we don't. We sustain them as prophets, seers and revelators, or we don't. I do.
LDS4gaymarriage | 7:51 a.m. Oct. 23, 2008
Alan - I accuse no one. However, it is a very simple matter; we either support
our Prophet and Apostles, or we don't. We sustain them as prophets, seers
and revelators, or we don't. I do.
LDS - I sustain them too. When God has something for the Church, He tells them, not me, not you. This does NOT mean that everythnig that they say comes from God. joseph Fielding Smith and HBL both said that if their words contradict scripture, we are to ignore their words and stick with scripture. This means that they both felt that they, as prophets, CAN say things that are doctrinally wrong. The prophets are NOT God's ventriloquist dummies whose mouths only work when the Lord pulls the strings and have His words come through the dummy.
LDS - I sustain them too. When God has something for the Church, He tells them, not me, not you. This does NOT mean that everythnig that they say comes from God. joseph Fielding Smith and HBL both said that if their words contradict scripture, we are to ignore their words and stick with scripture. This means that they both felt that they, as prophets, CAN say things that are doctrinally wrong. The prophets are NOT God's ventriloquist dummies whose mouths only work when the Lord pulls the strings and have His words come through the dummy.
Alan | 7:25 p.m. Oct. 23, 2008
LDS4gaymarriage, obviously we disagree, and I won't become contentious over
that fact. Having said that, however, I would suggest that when the Quorum of
the 12, the Prophet and his counselors all agree on this matter, it DOES come
from God. YMMV.
Daniel McInnis | 8:29 p.m. Oct. 23, 2008
I feel that the Christian purpose here is to affirm life, to expressing
humanities fondest hopes and desires, while expressing the purpose of creation
that is our creation, as well as our nature. Indeed, I feel that we should
celebrate the diversity of the world, as through diversity we celebrate a unity.
We celebrate what makes each person different and unique. It is diversity that
unifies people and makes them stronger. The less people have in common, the
greater the range of possibilities each person has to exercise their diversity
in service to others, as each human has a unique contribution to offer the
community that never again will be repeated. Personally I
can�t think of anything that disrupts families more than
wars, disease and financial insecurity. The Christian role here is to promote
peace, not hostility, emphasizing individual resources and contributions that
would affect the greater good of the world wide community, instead of focusing
on the issues of American Nationalism, as well as issues that affect only 2% of
the world population.
Denissr | 9:30 a.m. Oct. 26, 2008
I have some trouble understanding the LDS active role in the CA. marriage law.
1. The church believes in free will, seems like this infringes on this. 2. It is
outside the church, it doesn�t interfere in what they
believe and do. 3. The church stays out of politics. 4. The church believes and
says other churches are an abomination, why would it join them in this political
fight.
Mormon husbands and wives are sealed in one of their Temples, it is nothing like civil or other church weddings, so why get involved in what others and the secular world does?
I heard in India some woman got married to a snake, strange, but not worth going on a crusade about.
Mormon husbands and wives are sealed in one of their Temples, it is nothing like civil or other church weddings, so why get involved in what others and the secular world does?
I heard in India some woman got married to a snake, strange, but not worth going on a crusade about.
To Denissr | 6:28 p.m. Oct. 28, 2008
I agree with all 4 of your points. And I completely disagree with the church
leaders preaching about this over the pulpit. This is doing nothing but
tarnishing the church's reputation, and its supporters are breaking the
good will that people had with members of the church.
I wish the church would exert this much money and energy mobilizing members to help lift people out of poverty rather than focusing on something this ridiculous.
I wish the church would exert this much money and energy mobilizing members to help lift people out of poverty rather than focusing on something this ridiculous.
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Gay people are people. And they're equal. And inevitably they WILL be able to legally marry everywhere -- just like black people can now marry white people and Christians can marry Jews.
How many of you are white, under-educated, struggling financially, single parents (because of a divorce?) and are perhaps a bit overweight? A large amount, I'm guessing. But it would be a silly stereotype for me to apply all these factors to why you have your ill-informed views of gay marriage -- almost as silly as the uninformed stereotypes about gay people that you've applied. We'll really "pay a dear price" because of gay marriage??? What a joke. You'll probably benefit from it!
If we really want to "Protect Marriage" then why don't we all work on OUTLAWING DIVORCE??!!!