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LDS Church urges pro-Proposition 8 calls
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To : LDS4Gaymarriage | 4:08 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
Your user name clearly indicates that you think yourself to be LDS. Anyone who
is for this is clearly not actively practicing their religion. The position of
the LDS church in relation to the Marriage...you need only look at the
Proclamation to the world...that was done when...1995. Want some
highlights...
--Gender is an essential part of human identity before, during, and after life on Earth.
--Sex is sacred and must only take place between a married man and woman.
--Disintegration of the family will bring "calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets".
This is what your church believes and preaches. If you are not in agreement with this...I suggest you find a different church or change your views!
--Gender is an essential part of human identity before, during, and after life on Earth.
--Sex is sacred and must only take place between a married man and woman.
--Disintegration of the family will bring "calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets".
This is what your church believes and preaches. If you are not in agreement with this...I suggest you find a different church or change your views!
Truly LDS | 4:29 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
Once again, we see the conformists insisting that THEIR interpretation of
beliefs is the ONLY one and everyone who believes differently should "find
a different church or change your views". Such dichotomous thinking. Such
absolutism. Such dysfunctional fascism!
I am active LDS with a temple recommend, a calling, and all that betokens "active". I oppose Proposition 8 on political grounds. You cannot force me out the Church because I disagree with a political initiative no matter how much it bothers you.
I believe in the Church; I believe in the Prophets and Apostles; etc. But there is NO requirement of blind obedience, nor for me to be commanded in all things, nor even for me to AGREE with everything the Church leaders say, for me to be an active, temple-worthy member of the Church! The word "sustain" does NOT mean "agree with and blindly obey". Look up the word "sustain".
I have studied, fasted and prayed about the issue of same-sex marriage extensively. The guiding power of the Holy Ghost has confirmed my position on this matter (see D&C 9). Prop8 violates fundamental principles of liberty and equality. I will never support such.
I am active LDS with a temple recommend, a calling, and all that betokens "active". I oppose Proposition 8 on political grounds. You cannot force me out the Church because I disagree with a political initiative no matter how much it bothers you.
I believe in the Church; I believe in the Prophets and Apostles; etc. But there is NO requirement of blind obedience, nor for me to be commanded in all things, nor even for me to AGREE with everything the Church leaders say, for me to be an active, temple-worthy member of the Church! The word "sustain" does NOT mean "agree with and blindly obey". Look up the word "sustain".
I have studied, fasted and prayed about the issue of same-sex marriage extensively. The guiding power of the Holy Ghost has confirmed my position on this matter (see D&C 9). Prop8 violates fundamental principles of liberty and equality. I will never support such.
Comments continue below
standingforright | 4:42 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
I live in California and I am going to vote yes on 8 not because of my church
leaders asking us to but because I know that it is right. Lakerfan I feel sad
for you and your partner, I have family members that is gay I don't care
what they do but I don't have to agree with their life style. I do have to
say you feel my church leaders are telling us to vote yes on this, what they
have asked is that when we go to the polls to pray and do what we feel is right.
I am and I will have posters out side my home bumper stickers on my wheel chair,
and anything else I can do I will do because that is the right. Those that say
it is being put down your throat is garbage you just don't like to know God
is stronger and those missionaries who go to your door they go out for two years
to serve their God and Savior. My son served and I look up to him and so do
others.
Google It! | 4:46 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
Google's position on California's No on 8 campaign:
9/26/2008 03:23:00 PM
As an Internet company, Google is an active participant in policy debates surrounding information access, technology and energy. Because our company has a great diversity of people and opinions -- Democrats and Republicans, conservatives and liberals, all religions and no religion, straight and gay -- we do not generally take a position on issues outside of our field, especially not social issues. So when Proposition 8 appeared on the California ballot, it was an unlikely question for Google to take an official company position on.
However, while there are many objections to this proposition -- further government encroachment on personal lives, ambiguously written text -- it is the chilling and discriminatory effect of the proposition on many of our employees that brings Google to publicly oppose Proposition 8. While we respect the strongly-held beliefs that people have on both sides of this argument, we see this fundamentally as an issue of equality. We hope that California voters will vote no on Proposition 8 -- we should not eliminate anyone's fundamental rights, whatever their sexuality, to marry the person they love.
Posted by Sergey Brin, Co-founder & President, Technology
9/26/2008 03:23:00 PM
As an Internet company, Google is an active participant in policy debates surrounding information access, technology and energy. Because our company has a great diversity of people and opinions -- Democrats and Republicans, conservatives and liberals, all religions and no religion, straight and gay -- we do not generally take a position on issues outside of our field, especially not social issues. So when Proposition 8 appeared on the California ballot, it was an unlikely question for Google to take an official company position on.
However, while there are many objections to this proposition -- further government encroachment on personal lives, ambiguously written text -- it is the chilling and discriminatory effect of the proposition on many of our employees that brings Google to publicly oppose Proposition 8. While we respect the strongly-held beliefs that people have on both sides of this argument, we see this fundamentally as an issue of equality. We hope that California voters will vote no on Proposition 8 -- we should not eliminate anyone's fundamental rights, whatever their sexuality, to marry the person they love.
Posted by Sergey Brin, Co-founder & President, Technology
Montana | 4:51 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
1st. What freedoms are gays not being given? Under the civil union law that
recieve the same rights as anyone else.
2nd. For those of you that keep saying that the LDS church needs to stay out of politic. What are you talking about? They do. This is a social and moral issue, not political. Plus marriage is a religious institution on civil, so in reality it is the Gays and the government going where they should not.
3rd. A church any church has the right to teach and influence its members on social and moral issues.
4th To those that say that the church should stay out of your lives, My question is, Do you believe in God? Any God? Because no matter who your God is he/she has rules or commandments for you to follow. Do you tell your God to stay out of your life? I don't think so. One of the rules the God of the bible states that Homosexuality is a Sin. There for the LDS or any other church does have the right to influence its members.
I welcome resposes.
2nd. For those of you that keep saying that the LDS church needs to stay out of politic. What are you talking about? They do. This is a social and moral issue, not political. Plus marriage is a religious institution on civil, so in reality it is the Gays and the government going where they should not.
3rd. A church any church has the right to teach and influence its members on social and moral issues.
4th To those that say that the church should stay out of your lives, My question is, Do you believe in God? Any God? Because no matter who your God is he/she has rules or commandments for you to follow. Do you tell your God to stay out of your life? I don't think so. One of the rules the God of the bible states that Homosexuality is a Sin. There for the LDS or any other church does have the right to influence its members.
I welcome resposes.
SLC Resident | 4:55 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
Hasn't the LDS religion persecuted gay people long enough? Why are they so
consumed with keeping them down? Sure, Now they say how much they
"love" and "respect" them, but take a look at the history of
their treatment of them, it is well documented. The LDS religion has positively
gone overboard with their support of this amendment in California, they have
contributed more money, time and effort than any other religion, bar none. And
please don't tell us about the rights you think they deserve, I'll
point you to the Amendment 3 you passed in Utah, which gives gay couples No
legal status at all--That is your true position on equal rights for gay people.
LA Times Opinion Rocks | 4:56 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
Los Angeles Times:
It's the same sentence as in 2000: "Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California." Yet the issue that will be put before voters Nov. 4 is radically different. This time, the wording would be used to rescind an existing constitutional right to marry. We fervently hope that voters, whatever their personal or religious convictions, will shudder at such a step and vote no on Proposition 8.
What voters must consider about Proposition 8 is that, unlike Proposition 22, this is no longer about refining existing California law. In the wake of the court's ruling, the only way to deny marriage to gay and lesbian couples is by revising constitutional rights themselves. Proposition 8 seeks to embed wording in the Constitution that would eliminate the fundamental right to same-sex marriage.
It's a rare and drastic step, invoking the constitutional-amendment process to strip people of rights. Yet in California, it can be done with a simple majority vote. All the more reason for voters to weigh carefully what would be wrought by this measure.
It's the same sentence as in 2000: "Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California." Yet the issue that will be put before voters Nov. 4 is radically different. This time, the wording would be used to rescind an existing constitutional right to marry. We fervently hope that voters, whatever their personal or religious convictions, will shudder at such a step and vote no on Proposition 8.
What voters must consider about Proposition 8 is that, unlike Proposition 22, this is no longer about refining existing California law. In the wake of the court's ruling, the only way to deny marriage to gay and lesbian couples is by revising constitutional rights themselves. Proposition 8 seeks to embed wording in the Constitution that would eliminate the fundamental right to same-sex marriage.
It's a rare and drastic step, invoking the constitutional-amendment process to strip people of rights. Yet in California, it can be done with a simple majority vote. All the more reason for voters to weigh carefully what would be wrought by this measure.
Bruda 2 Bruda! | 4:56 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
Again! who is trying to mainstream the homosexual ways of living. The anti LDS
will vote for this bill regardless of their sexual orientation,they hate the LDS
church that much that they will jump to bed with the evil one himself!
As the saying go...! fools will tread where no one dares!
As the saying go...! fools will tread where no one dares!
Yes on * | 4:58 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
To from BYU and any other so called church member who thinks they are an expert.
Its funny how ignorant and blind people can be. If you can't see the
problem with allowing this prop. to fail then you are lost. The ramnifications
go way beyond someones ability to say they are married. This is the gay, lesbian
agenda trying to force their life style on everyone else and call us bigots for
not agreeing. The LDS church is not the only religion behind this. It is sad to
think that those people who claim to go to church each week think they know
better than the leaders of this church. The church has every right to protect
the interests of its members. From same-sex being taught in the schools to being
forced to let them have their own holiday, which almost happened but was vetoed.
This will only be the beginning
Russell Henderson | 5:02 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
Since it was ten years ago this week, does everyone know which church Russell
Henderson, one of Matthew Shepard's murderers, belonged to?
Yes on 8 | 5:24 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
Truly LDS- Your name contradicts your argument or justification on why you are
choosing to not follow the guidance of our Prophet. If you were Truly LDS then
you would know that we believe marriage to be between and man and a women. Also
I am not sure why you feel D&C 9 confirms your fast as it has nothing to do
with priciples and liberty. You are blind if you think the church is asking us
members to follow blindly they are asking us to be obedient to the covenants
that you and I both made as temple recommed holders. Maybe in your studies you
should research what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah.
RE: LDS4Gaymarriage | 5:27 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
Taking state money does not require you to give up you consttitional rights to
exercise your religion nor the right of association nor any other
constitutionalallly guaranteed right.
The Massechuttetts decision was wrong.
I can not think of a single ancient civilization that existed that wallowed in sexual sin and sexual perversions, that exists to day.
Romans. Gone.
Greeks. Gone.
Sodom and Gommorah. Gone.
Ancient south american civilizations. Gone.
And the list goes on and on.
You want to preserve your society, your civilization, your country, it's quite clear what direction you must take.
People say look at other countries, look at MA., no bad thing is happening.
But it is like cancer, you don't see it's effect right away, and in some case you see any effect until it's too late, but give it time it WILL destroy the body.
The Massechuttetts decision was wrong.
I can not think of a single ancient civilization that existed that wallowed in sexual sin and sexual perversions, that exists to day.
Romans. Gone.
Greeks. Gone.
Sodom and Gommorah. Gone.
Ancient south american civilizations. Gone.
And the list goes on and on.
You want to preserve your society, your civilization, your country, it's quite clear what direction you must take.
People say look at other countries, look at MA., no bad thing is happening.
But it is like cancer, you don't see it's effect right away, and in some case you see any effect until it's too late, but give it time it WILL destroy the body.
Common Ground | 5:29 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
There's obviously a lot of passion on both sides of the argument. No one
is likely to change their opinion and certainly not with all of the
name-calling, etc. Why would calling me an idiot persuade me to change to your
side of the argument?
I continue to ask why a compromise can't be made. Let the gays have their basic rights such as visitation, inheritance, etc. Let the churches have their institution of marriage.
Work toward mutual respect. It can be done.
I continue to ask why a compromise can't be made. Let the gays have their basic rights such as visitation, inheritance, etc. Let the churches have their institution of marriage.
Work toward mutual respect. It can be done.
Doug Wilson | 5:32 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
Simple. Marriage between a man and a woman is sanctioned by God. Anything else
is not. Either a principle tastes good or it doesn't. Marriage between a
man and a man, or marriage between a woman and a woman doesn't taste good,
doesn't ring true. Legal rights for partners are justified. Changing the
definition of marriage is not justified. The courts over-stepped their
interpretive power by reversing the legislation. Let's see, earthquakes,
hurricanes, global warming, financial disaster - all fulfillment of prophecy.
I'm glad I've listened to a prophet's voice. The Lord knows His
own and sustains them when they respect their covenants and magnify their faith.
He's kept His promise. Don't ask me to go against Him. I may fight
to death defending your right to exercise your free agency, but don't try
to convince me to disregard the individual who granted me the intelligence to
exercise that agency.
CA who has studied this | 5:33 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
This has nothing to do with gay rights. It is a major change in our culture.
Schools will be required to teach that boys can marry boys and it is normal. Why should all students in the US(yes it will spread) be subjected to this new definition of marriage.
There are so many other consequences of this on our culture I can't name them all. Religions will be required by goverment to adopt this way of thinking. Lawyers will go crazy as they force all to accept gay marriage as normal.
Truly if this were only about gay marriage, it would not bother me.
That is just not the case. It will affect everyone's freedom. It will every deeply affect people who support traditional marriage.
Schools will be required to teach that boys can marry boys and it is normal. Why should all students in the US(yes it will spread) be subjected to this new definition of marriage.
There are so many other consequences of this on our culture I can't name them all. Religions will be required by goverment to adopt this way of thinking. Lawyers will go crazy as they force all to accept gay marriage as normal.
Truly if this were only about gay marriage, it would not bother me.
That is just not the case. It will affect everyone's freedom. It will every deeply affect people who support traditional marriage.
Brother Chuck Schroeder | 5:35 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
It's "ABOUT TIME" they got up off their lazy butts, and, started
to get political "for real change" in America, as a true Republican
really does such as Elders M. Russell Ballard and Quentin L. Cook of the Quorum
of the Twelve and Elder L. Whitney Clayton of the Presidency of the Seventy are
to address the LDS Church's doctrine of marriage and its participation in
the Protect Marriage Coalition. This should of been done way back in 1995,
it's NOW 2007.
Sam and sharyleVisalia | 5:43 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
For those who think that the gays will ever be allowed in the Temples has
another thing coming.
God is stonger and he don't waver to what he wants for his children. God created adam and eve and not adam and steve.
I live in California and I am a proud LDS member.
Are church is not the only church that is working hard to fight for this. Catholic, Baptist, Evangelistic churches all working together.
Now for those who don't like the missionaries going to your door then don't answer it. But my son served a two year mission in Tacoma Washington and he did so faithfully and I am so proud of him and my nephew is serving right now and they do so because of their faith and testimony. They are not out shooting at people, doing drugs, or any other bad stuff young kids do. When you see them you should feel honored to shake their hand, and you may learn they are good young men. VOTE YES ON 8 california this is not about what faith you belong to, but we all stand together in this important issues. MAy God be with
CALIORNIA this november.
God is stonger and he don't waver to what he wants for his children. God created adam and eve and not adam and steve.
I live in California and I am a proud LDS member.
Are church is not the only church that is working hard to fight for this. Catholic, Baptist, Evangelistic churches all working together.
Now for those who don't like the missionaries going to your door then don't answer it. But my son served a two year mission in Tacoma Washington and he did so faithfully and I am so proud of him and my nephew is serving right now and they do so because of their faith and testimony. They are not out shooting at people, doing drugs, or any other bad stuff young kids do. When you see them you should feel honored to shake their hand, and you may learn they are good young men. VOTE YES ON 8 california this is not about what faith you belong to, but we all stand together in this important issues. MAy God be with
CALIORNIA this november.
Drastic effects | 5:45 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
If you're wondering how a rejection of Proposition 8 would affect you, do a
little research. For example check out the videos on the Family Research
Council website. There's a lot of good information about what is happening
in places like Massachusetts.
California is such a big state that it will be a major step in the gay agenda to enforce acceptance of homosexuality in a "whether you like it or not" manner across the country and around the world.
California is such a big state that it will be a major step in the gay agenda to enforce acceptance of homosexuality in a "whether you like it or not" manner across the country and around the world.
To Truly LDS | 5:48 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
YOU SAY "I'm not surprise that you would consider yourself I am active LDS with a temple recommend, a calling, and all that betokens "active". I oppose Proposition 8 on political grounds. You cannot force me out the Church because I disagree with a political initiative no matter how much it bothers you.I believe in the Church; I believe in the Prophets and Apostles; etc"
BUT ONE OF THE QUESTIONS YOU ANSWER IN THE TEMPLE RECOMMEND INTERVIEW IS
7.Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
I SUPPOSE YOU SKIP OVER THIS QUESTION AND SIMPLY, QUICKLY SAY 'NO, I DON'T'. IF YOU ARE GOING TO VOTE AGAINST PROP 8, YOU SHOULD STOP BY THE BISHOP'S OFFICE ON THE WAY BACK FROM THE POLLS AND TURN IN THE RECCOMEND.
Hey Liberals | 5:49 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
Disagreement isn't the same thing as hate.
@hey liberals | 5:58 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
hate is not the same as civil discourse! whats your point?
Personal Identity Matters | 6:05 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
It doesn't matter whether gays are born that way or not. You are not born
with a genetic or biological tendency for religion. You CHOOSE your religion (in
theory, at least). But we would be appalled if a constitutional amendment
deprived us of a right and equality under the law because of our freely chosen
religion!
Even if it is not inborn, there is no doubt homosexuality is not simply about sex. Having "same sex attraction" is an identity just as much as having "opposite sex attraction". You orient yourself toward the world according to it. You define yourself by it. It is a way of life, not just an animal urge to have sex with others of your biological "type"! If you don't understand that, you don't understand homosexuality and can, therefore, have no basis for a meaningful opinion on the subject.
Depriving another human being of basic civil rights and equality under the law upon the basis of their (chosen or not) PERSONAL IDENTITY is immoral, unethical, and reprehensible! It is sickening to see such a mob mentality influencing so many religious fanatics to be so eager to assault the civil liberties of others who are different.
Even if it is not inborn, there is no doubt homosexuality is not simply about sex. Having "same sex attraction" is an identity just as much as having "opposite sex attraction". You orient yourself toward the world according to it. You define yourself by it. It is a way of life, not just an animal urge to have sex with others of your biological "type"! If you don't understand that, you don't understand homosexuality and can, therefore, have no basis for a meaningful opinion on the subject.
Depriving another human being of basic civil rights and equality under the law upon the basis of their (chosen or not) PERSONAL IDENTITY is immoral, unethical, and reprehensible! It is sickening to see such a mob mentality influencing so many religious fanatics to be so eager to assault the civil liberties of others who are different.
To: Personal Identity Matters | 6:15 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
I don't understand pedophelia or zoophelia either, but I sure as can tell
you that I have as much right to a meaningful opinion on the subjects as you do.
Prop 8 does not deprive any basic civil rights. It defines what our society believes the word marriage should be. Please read the pages, and pages, and pages, and pages of comments stating that the gays already get their civil rights with their little civil unions. What they want is to change the definition of Marriage.
Prop 8 does not deprive any basic civil rights. It defines what our society believes the word marriage should be. Please read the pages, and pages, and pages, and pages of comments stating that the gays already get their civil rights with their little civil unions. What they want is to change the definition of Marriage.
To Doug | 6:20 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
Marriage between a man and a man, or marriage between a woman and a woman tastes
good to me! They ring true to me! So why do YOU get to impose YOUR tastes onto
ME but I don't get to impose mine on you?
Answer: because you believe God loves you and approves of you and not me. Because you believe you are righteous and I am a "sinner".
Let me remind you what your (claimed) leader, Jesus, said: "And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Bishop, and the other a homosexual.
The Bishop stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this homosexual.
I fast, pay tithing, serve in my calling, attend the Temple, hold family prayer and scripture study.
�every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
(Luke18:9-14)
I pray God abases the self-righteous among you quickly.
Answer: because you believe God loves you and approves of you and not me. Because you believe you are righteous and I am a "sinner".
Let me remind you what your (claimed) leader, Jesus, said: "And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Bishop, and the other a homosexual.
The Bishop stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this homosexual.
I fast, pay tithing, serve in my calling, attend the Temple, hold family prayer and scripture study.
�every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
(Luke18:9-14)
I pray God abases the self-righteous among you quickly.
Anonymous | 6:26 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
So now the fanatics are telling us that if we oppose Proposition 8 we are not
worth of a temple recommend!
How far must this go before you all stop beating people into compliance with your beliefs?!
There is NO basis for accusing LDS members of being unworthy or sinful for opposing Proposition 8!
How far must this go before you all stop beating people into compliance with your beliefs?!
There is NO basis for accusing LDS members of being unworthy or sinful for opposing Proposition 8!
Nice try, libs | 6:29 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
To the liberals who support gay "marriage" and try to make LDS members
worry or fret over whether the LDS church will lose it's tax exempt status
because they support Proposition 8: nice try.
Your threats and portrayals of "bad things" happening if the Mormon church lost it's tax exempt status is pathetically weak. Quit trying to stir up trouble when in reality there is NO chance at all over losing a tax exempt status over this.
Why? Because EVERY church has a duty and a right to speak up for issues of "right" and "wrong". It's called "morality", remember? That's the main reason churches exist in the first place; to help their members understand "good" and "evil" and to choose "good" with the ultimate "good" being to choose a personal relationship with the Creator of the universe.
Your ignorance, no, your "selective intelligence" of these type of facts boggles my mind. Why in the world would otherwise intelligent people choose to look on the issues surrounding homosexuality with such obvious blinders on?
Fear....try it on a people of lesser courage. REAL Christians of ALL faiths fear NOTHING except slowly falling into ambivalence about their relationship with Christ.
Your threats and portrayals of "bad things" happening if the Mormon church lost it's tax exempt status is pathetically weak. Quit trying to stir up trouble when in reality there is NO chance at all over losing a tax exempt status over this.
Why? Because EVERY church has a duty and a right to speak up for issues of "right" and "wrong". It's called "morality", remember? That's the main reason churches exist in the first place; to help their members understand "good" and "evil" and to choose "good" with the ultimate "good" being to choose a personal relationship with the Creator of the universe.
Your ignorance, no, your "selective intelligence" of these type of facts boggles my mind. Why in the world would otherwise intelligent people choose to look on the issues surrounding homosexuality with such obvious blinders on?
Fear....try it on a people of lesser courage. REAL Christians of ALL faiths fear NOTHING except slowly falling into ambivalence about their relationship with Christ.
To: Anonomous | 6:31 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
"Do you support, affiliate with, OR AGREE WITH any group or individual
whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?"
Seems to me to be a pretty simple question...come on now...English isn't that difficult to understand, is it?
Seems to me to be a pretty simple question...come on now...English isn't that difficult to understand, is it?
To: @ hey liberals | 6:31 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
We can have all of the civil discourse you want (although most of what's
going on in this blog is not civil) and I won't change your mind and you
won't change mine. But the word "hate" gets thrown around pretty
loosely.
Cal. Voter | 6:36 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
If this had passed 200 years ago, you wouldn't be here on earth. You
insult your ancestors by messing with something they already knew is wrong.
Here we go... | 6:37 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
Prop 8 is going down. You people have every right to believe what you want to
believe. But, the bottom line is that most of society does not see this as a
threat but rather an issue of civil rights and equality.
Admittedly I haven't heard many well thought out arguments from the right about why this is such a threat other than quoting scriptures (which really doesn't resonate with the average secular American), but feel free to place those calls. They will fall on deaf ears my friends.
Admittedly I haven't heard many well thought out arguments from the right about why this is such a threat other than quoting scriptures (which really doesn't resonate with the average secular American), but feel free to place those calls. They will fall on deaf ears my friends.
To 6:15 p.m. | 6:38 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
If Proposition 8 was about pedophelia or zoophelia then your comment would be
relevant.
Prop 8 DOES ABSOLUTELY deprive basic civil rights from people on the basis of their personal identity as SSA (same sex attraction) or homosexuality!
Currently, the U.S. Constitution explicitly states that ALL other rights NOT specifically mentioned in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights belong defacto to the PEOPLE as individual citizens: "
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." (9th Amendment)
This includes the right to marry whomever one chooses!
Only in a few States is a right to marry even mentioned in the State Constitution. In direct contradiction of the U.S. Constitution, some states tried to enumerate marriage rights so as to control interracial marriages. These uncivil Constitutions have been amended and changed over many decades, with some changes made relatively recently. In principle, there should be NO mention of any specifically enumerated right to marry in ANY constitution because, according to the 9th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, that right along with all other rights retained by the people!
If Prop8 passes, next stop: US Supreme Court!
Prop 8 DOES ABSOLUTELY deprive basic civil rights from people on the basis of their personal identity as SSA (same sex attraction) or homosexuality!
Currently, the U.S. Constitution explicitly states that ALL other rights NOT specifically mentioned in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights belong defacto to the PEOPLE as individual citizens: "
"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." (9th Amendment)
This includes the right to marry whomever one chooses!
Only in a few States is a right to marry even mentioned in the State Constitution. In direct contradiction of the U.S. Constitution, some states tried to enumerate marriage rights so as to control interracial marriages. These uncivil Constitutions have been amended and changed over many decades, with some changes made relatively recently. In principle, there should be NO mention of any specifically enumerated right to marry in ANY constitution because, according to the 9th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, that right along with all other rights retained by the people!
If Prop8 passes, next stop: US Supreme Court!
To Truly LDS: | 6:42 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
Before you get bombarded with judgment and vitriol from other church members,
let me simply applaud your independent, reasoned thinking and approach to the
matter.
For all those years I stayed in the church, I wish I could have found somebody that thought like you. Alas, I did not, and while my decision to leave the church is mine and mine alone, it's too bad there aren't very many people like you left in the fold.
If I could, I'd buy you a Coke (caffeinated of course)
For all those years I stayed in the church, I wish I could have found somebody that thought like you. Alas, I did not, and while my decision to leave the church is mine and mine alone, it's too bad there aren't very many people like you left in the fold.
If I could, I'd buy you a Coke (caffeinated of course)
To Personal Identity | 6:45 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
I think you hit the key issue on the head. It seems (almost) everyone agrees
homosexuals should have civil rights.
The question, then, is "is marriage a civil right?"
What do you want from all of this? To have civil rights? I agree with that.
To have the vast majority of Americans and Christians love the sinner and hate the sin? That's also not as hard as you think.
To have people forced by law to believe in their hearts that homosexuality is NOT a sin? There's the problem.
Do you think somehow that marriage instead of civil unions is going to change hearts? It won't.
I have gay friends and co-workers. I care about them. While I don't understand their attraction/love for the same sex, I recognize that is their choice. But no matter how angry you all get and jump up and down shouting and making demands, I will never change my beliefs on this subject.
Now, can you be tolerant and accepting of that?
The question, then, is "is marriage a civil right?"
What do you want from all of this? To have civil rights? I agree with that.
To have the vast majority of Americans and Christians love the sinner and hate the sin? That's also not as hard as you think.
To have people forced by law to believe in their hearts that homosexuality is NOT a sin? There's the problem.
Do you think somehow that marriage instead of civil unions is going to change hearts? It won't.
I have gay friends and co-workers. I care about them. While I don't understand their attraction/love for the same sex, I recognize that is their choice. But no matter how angry you all get and jump up and down shouting and making demands, I will never change my beliefs on this subject.
Now, can you be tolerant and accepting of that?
To True Christians Everywhere | 6:56 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
The practice of homosexuality is wrong. Always was. Always will be.
Does anyone really thing that homosexuals will say no to Proposition 8 and then just live in peace beside us? If so, your head is in the sand.
Gays will next launch lawsuit after lawsuit claiming that their right to happiness has been severely curtailed if you as their neighbor exercise your RIGHT to free speech and say that homosexual relationships are wrong. Idiot judges who already have overruled the vast majority of the American public will agree with them.
LIBERAL JUDGES HAVE RULED PRIMARILY AGAINST CONSERVATIVE VALUES FOR D-E-C-A-D-E-S IN AMERICA SO WHY, EXACTLY, WILL IT SUDDENLY STOP?
Plus, consider this: we've all given in to sin at one time or other. Satan sits on our shoulder and says "do it just this once and then you can repent". But once we are seduced, instead of encouraging us to change, he ALWAYS says "do it again". We ALL know this because we've ALL been there.
Satan is never, EVER content with just a "little" disobedience. He will not let homosexuals be content with marriage only.
Next up is the gagging of YOUR right to free speech!
Does anyone really thing that homosexuals will say no to Proposition 8 and then just live in peace beside us? If so, your head is in the sand.
Gays will next launch lawsuit after lawsuit claiming that their right to happiness has been severely curtailed if you as their neighbor exercise your RIGHT to free speech and say that homosexual relationships are wrong. Idiot judges who already have overruled the vast majority of the American public will agree with them.
LIBERAL JUDGES HAVE RULED PRIMARILY AGAINST CONSERVATIVE VALUES FOR D-E-C-A-D-E-S IN AMERICA SO WHY, EXACTLY, WILL IT SUDDENLY STOP?
Plus, consider this: we've all given in to sin at one time or other. Satan sits on our shoulder and says "do it just this once and then you can repent". But once we are seduced, instead of encouraging us to change, he ALWAYS says "do it again". We ALL know this because we've ALL been there.
Satan is never, EVER content with just a "little" disobedience. He will not let homosexuals be content with marriage only.
Next up is the gagging of YOUR right to free speech!
To: 6:38pm | 6:59 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
Go study the founding fathers in depth and then try to use the Bill of rights
again to persuade me over to your point of view...LOL. All gay people can
currently get 'Married'. They simply have to do it the way it old
fashioned way...to the opposite sex.
I agree this is not about zoophelia or pedophelia...but it's not about understanding homosexual feelings either. It's about a society having the right to govern itself.
I agree this is not about zoophelia or pedophelia...but it's not about understanding homosexual feelings either. It's about a society having the right to govern itself.
overwhelmed | 6:59 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
I feel ashamed and abhored to some of the comments made. Please, be informed
before spilling out your thoughts. I see a lot of ignorance among some of you
with some hatred toward things you do not know. This is what our world has
turned into! Listen to yourself. It is no wonder our nation is in such a mess.
Where are the God loving people among some of you Saints? Our Father in Heaven
has to be really upset to what has become an apostacy.
Stand UP Christians! Stand UP! | 7:13 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
Mormons!, Catholics!, Protestants!, Jehova's Witnesses!, Seventh Day
Adventists!, Baptists!, Pentacostals!, Presbytarians!, Methodists!, Quakers!,
and good people of ALL religious creeds and colors!...LOOK at the issues before
you vote on Proposition 8!
LOOK at what is at stake!
Little things always have BIG consequences! It was a small thing for a president to sign the Community Reinvestment Act. (Google it). It was a small thing for CEOs of large banks to cook the books "just this once" or to look the other way. It was a small thing for Democrats AND Republicans to say "nay" to bills that encouraged more oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac years ago. It was a small thing for individual customers to believe "well, I bet the value on my home will always go up so we can refinance later" and sign on the dotted line.
But look at the mess we're in now because of "one small thing".
Proposition 8 has CONSEQUENCES! It isn't just something that goes on "behind closed bedroom doors".
"As for me and my house, we shall follow the Lord" - Joshua 24:15
May we ALL be like Joshua.
LOOK at what is at stake!
Little things always have BIG consequences! It was a small thing for a president to sign the Community Reinvestment Act. (Google it). It was a small thing for CEOs of large banks to cook the books "just this once" or to look the other way. It was a small thing for Democrats AND Republicans to say "nay" to bills that encouraged more oversight of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac years ago. It was a small thing for individual customers to believe "well, I bet the value on my home will always go up so we can refinance later" and sign on the dotted line.
But look at the mess we're in now because of "one small thing".
Proposition 8 has CONSEQUENCES! It isn't just something that goes on "behind closed bedroom doors".
"As for me and my house, we shall follow the Lord" - Joshua 24:15
May we ALL be like Joshua.
To 6:31 | 7:15 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
Setting your childish sarcasm aside, here is a reasoned answer--despite the fact
that I ultimately owe you NO explanation at all for my personal beliefs! I offer
it as a courtesy because you are not my judge.
I honestly answer NO to this question because I do NOT support (with money or otherwise), affiliate with (I am not a member of any group except professional affiliations and the Church) or "agree with" any group or individual... because my beliefs are my own, arrived at by prayer, study, faith, and the Holy Spirit. They are not derivative from the beliefs of others so as to constitute "agreeing" with them as such. Any similarities between my own positions and those of other groups or individuals are incidental only, and do NOT constitute my "agreeing" with them.
As for "...contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", you show me where support of Proposition 8 or anything like unto it is found in OFFICIAL, CANONIZED doctrine (teachings) of the LDS Church! It is nowhere to be found.
I oppose Proposition 8 on political grounds. I will always remain a worthy LDS member.
I honestly answer NO to this question because I do NOT support (with money or otherwise), affiliate with (I am not a member of any group except professional affiliations and the Church) or "agree with" any group or individual... because my beliefs are my own, arrived at by prayer, study, faith, and the Holy Spirit. They are not derivative from the beliefs of others so as to constitute "agreeing" with them as such. Any similarities between my own positions and those of other groups or individuals are incidental only, and do NOT constitute my "agreeing" with them.
As for "...contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints", you show me where support of Proposition 8 or anything like unto it is found in OFFICIAL, CANONIZED doctrine (teachings) of the LDS Church! It is nowhere to be found.
I oppose Proposition 8 on political grounds. I will always remain a worthy LDS member.
@ Overwhelmed | 7:17 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
It's ok there...go make some green jello with fruit coctail. click your
heels together and keep repeating that you want to go back home. Smile big
though...little Toto will show you the way.
This is a message comment board, meant for opinions to be shared, discussed, even, ohhh, argued. by the way...APOSTASY
This is a message comment board, meant for opinions to be shared, discussed, even, ohhh, argued. by the way...APOSTASY
To 6:59 | 7:19 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
I have advanced degrees in "the founding fathers" (U.S. History).
You presume too much, and your arrogance distracts you from staying on the subject.
Please be specific. What exactly is it about the 9th Amendment, the Bill of Rights, or the writings of the "founding fathers" that is problematic and/or relevant to your point? (or do you even have a point anymore?)
You presume too much, and your arrogance distracts you from staying on the subject.
Please be specific. What exactly is it about the 9th Amendment, the Bill of Rights, or the writings of the "founding fathers" that is problematic and/or relevant to your point? (or do you even have a point anymore?)
Caleb | 7:27 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
I love the Church and I refuse to give in and allow the fanatic bigots and
hate-mongers to push me and like-minded people out of it!
I will stand fast and I will stand firm and I will oppose Proposition 8 and anyone who tries to force their beliefs and will upon others who have different values.
Join me in a dignified, respectful stance against the tyranny of religious fanaticism! Vote NO on 8!
I will stand fast and I will stand firm and I will oppose Proposition 8 and anyone who tries to force their beliefs and will upon others who have different values.
Join me in a dignified, respectful stance against the tyranny of religious fanaticism! Vote NO on 8!
LDS4gaymarriage | 7:34 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
jake - Thank you LDS4gaymarriage for being someone who makes sense.
The mere idea of thinking one human being is worth more than another or deserves more rights is absolutely ridiculous! I sincerely doubt God would want us to vote to take away consenting adults agency. It just ring true to me.
You seem very well educated and you are right, the LDS church would NOT be forced to offer adoption to gay parents or temple marriage, etc...
LDS - Thank you for your kind words. I'm sure you would enjoy our org's website which goes into more detail. Let us know what you think. Thanks again.
The mere idea of thinking one human being is worth more than another or deserves more rights is absolutely ridiculous! I sincerely doubt God would want us to vote to take away consenting adults agency. It just ring true to me.
You seem very well educated and you are right, the LDS church would NOT be forced to offer adoption to gay parents or temple marriage, etc...
LDS - Thank you for your kind words. I'm sure you would enjoy our org's website which goes into more detail. Let us know what you think. Thanks again.
LDS4gaymarriage | 7:38 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
Guest - This is not coming from the leaders of the church. This is not coming
from the church. It is coming from God.
LDS - References? this I GOTTA see.
LDS - References? this I GOTTA see.
LDS4gaymarriage | 7:44 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
Relocated - I have to agree with Betsy (10:46 p.m.) in that they want to force
the rest of society to conform to them and if we don't, they'll sue
us. There was another case in New Mexico last year where a photography studio
did not want to film a lesbian couple's commitment ceremony and
respectfully declined. The couple sued, and the photographers were fined $6000
by the State of New Mexico under some sort of anti-discrimination law! As with
the doctor in California who didn't want to perform the artificial
insemination, it's not that there aren't others willing to perform
these services;
LDS - Both the photographer and the doctor had state issued licenses and as holders of such licenses, they agree to abide by the law, even non-discrimination laws. They violated the law. What if the lesbians in both cases were instead straight Black couples and the doc and photographer said that they don't offer their services to Blacks? Discrimination is discrimination. if they want to discriminate, don't accept the licenses.
LDS - Both the photographer and the doctor had state issued licenses and as holders of such licenses, they agree to abide by the law, even non-discrimination laws. They violated the law. What if the lesbians in both cases were instead straight Black couples and the doc and photographer said that they don't offer their services to Blacks? Discrimination is discrimination. if they want to discriminate, don't accept the licenses.
To 7:15pm | 7:51 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
I didn't see OFFICIAL CANONIZED doctrine in the temple reccommend question.
Hmmmmmm. I did see
Support OR AGREE WITH any group or individual whose TEACHINGS OR PRACTICES are contrary to...you get the picture.
Look up definition of "Agree with", and Rationalization.
Of course, that depends on what the definition of Is is, right?
If you asked your prophet, you say you believe in, whether or not The Family Proclamation was Canonized scripture...what do you think he would say? I'm pretty sure I know what the answer is.
If you read the story...two 'Apostles' are supporting Prop 8...your Apostles, from the church you claim to believe in. If you disagree with the Church and with the apostles on this...why would you remain a member of that church? Your church has taken a position on this, and it's not a question of CANONIZED or nice beliefs. Your Church's Proclamation is pretty specific.
Support OR AGREE WITH any group or individual whose TEACHINGS OR PRACTICES are contrary to...you get the picture.
Look up definition of "Agree with", and Rationalization.
Of course, that depends on what the definition of Is is, right?
If you asked your prophet, you say you believe in, whether or not The Family Proclamation was Canonized scripture...what do you think he would say? I'm pretty sure I know what the answer is.
If you read the story...two 'Apostles' are supporting Prop 8...your Apostles, from the church you claim to believe in. If you disagree with the Church and with the apostles on this...why would you remain a member of that church? Your church has taken a position on this, and it's not a question of CANONIZED or nice beliefs. Your Church's Proclamation is pretty specific.
one issue | 7:54 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
I am aware of one of the critical issues for the church fighting for this. One
of course is the biblical and moral issue, an additional reason is the legal
problems they will have with Church Social Services and adoptions. The church
facilitates thousands of adoptions. If marriage is legally recognized for gays
and lesbians, the law will require them to either allow them to adopt or open
them up to lawsuits from the gay community for not allowing adoptions to gay
couples. The last thing they will want to do is be putting children in that type
of family arrangement. This is just one consideration. There are many more that
if this movement continues, it will infringe on their beliefs by being forces to
do things they don't believe in. Both sides are just fighting to believe
and live the way they want to.
SamBecks | 7:56 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
Homosexuality is just plain sick and wrong!!!! Any society that would support
this in any way is way out of line and deserves to be chastized by God.
Tina | 8:00 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
Well, of all the nerve!
LDS4gaymarriage | 8:02 p.m. Oct. 8, 2008
Steve - In Boston, Catholic Charities have closed their doors because the state
has required them to allow adoptions to same sex couples,...
LDS - Catholic Charities is still in business, just not adopting out kids. They were taking state money and thereby agreed to not discriminate. LDS Family Services still operate there and only give babies to LDS. They don't take state money.
Steve - 'A Methodist church has lost their tax exempt status because the minister refused to perform a marriage of a same sex couple.
LDS - Uh..not quite. The couple wanted to use a gazebo in the middle of a park that the public used. The church owned the gazebo and refused and lost. No sanctuary was in jeopardy.
Steve - 'A physician who refused to do fertility treatments on a same sex couple because of religious beliefs was sued, lost, and the state is requiring him to treat everyone as equal.
LDS - Holy Cow..the government is making him NOT discriminate? What if the Doc attended a Neo-Nazi church and the couple was Jewish and he refused due to his religion. Woould that be OK with you?
LDS - Catholic Charities is still in business, just not adopting out kids. They were taking state money and thereby agreed to not discriminate. LDS Family Services still operate there and only give babies to LDS. They don't take state money.
Steve - 'A Methodist church has lost their tax exempt status because the minister refused to perform a marriage of a same sex couple.
LDS - Uh..not quite. The couple wanted to use a gazebo in the middle of a park that the public used. The church owned the gazebo and refused and lost. No sanctuary was in jeopardy.
Steve - 'A physician who refused to do fertility treatments on a same sex couple because of religious beliefs was sued, lost, and the state is requiring him to treat everyone as equal.
LDS - Holy Cow..the government is making him NOT discriminate? What if the Doc attended a Neo-Nazi church and the couple was Jewish and he refused due to his religion. Woould that be OK with you?
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Prove there's a God who is so hateful first. Prove for a loving one, I don't care. but don't tell me that God wants something until you prove he is even real.
p.s. Superman called and said that you should vote against the Prop.